Suicides

[kratz]

One barrier against this, from some of my observations, has been LDA.  We give guys hundreds of dollars a month not to go to the field but to be in a unit designated as a field unit.  There is a financial disincentive to admitting the posibility of an injury because the free money might end.

Careful with those "good idea fairies".  LDA was adjusted, to be brought into line with SDA, as some thought it 'unfair' sailors traveling with their home, kitchen, shower ect....were getting more than the army. If someone now makes the argument that soldiers should lose LDA, those fairies these days, could easily leap and say no SDA for sailors either. The two elements have different challenges and issues of retention, we need to be cautious when applying a one size fits all to these ideas. 

 

[McG]

Careful with those "good idea fairies".  LDA was adjusted, to be brought into line with SDA, as some thought it 'unfair' sailors traveling with their home, kitchen, shower ect....were getting more than the army. If someone now makes the argument that soldiers should lose LDA, those fairies these days, could easily leap and say no SDA for sailors either. The two elements have different challenges and issues of retention, we need to be cautious when applying a one size fits all to these ideas. 

So, why should guys who manage to hold onto sea billets yet never leave shore get the extra pay while other guys get tossed between ships to make-up shortfalls ... and why should those guys doing extra time at sea not be making even more?  Super-sized casual allowances better compensate what they are intended to compensate, and super-sized casual allowances  don't act as free monthly money that is disincentive to self-identify injuries.

 

[kratz]

Casual allowances are not cumulative. Therefore there is no ability to rise to the next incentive level for SDA.

 

[jollyjacktar]

So, why should guys who manage to hold onto sea billets yet never leave shore get the extra pay while other guys get tossed between ships to make-up shortfalls ... and why should those guys doing extra time at sea not be making even more?  Super-sized casual allowances better compensate what they are intended to compensate, and super-sized casual allowances  don't act as free monthly money that is disincentive to self-identify injuries.

Just because you self-identify, as I did, it doesn't stop you from serving on board, deploying on ops or sailing with everyone else and getting your fair SDA, as I did.  Are there a few slugs out there? Sure, a very few.  I know there were some in the Brigades too who had NATO knees and the like when it came to going to the field.  They're everywhere to one degree or another.  Lastly, the reason certain trades are going from pillar to post to keep ships at sea has SFA to do with what you're talking about.  It's because there are retention issues in some trades and they're bleeding white for that reason, not the sick, lame and lazy trying to scam SDA.

 

[McG]

Just because you self-identify, as I did, it doesn't stop you from serving on board, deploying on ops or sailing with everyone else ...

Yes, it is possible to self identify the  remain employable, go to sea/the field, and still earn an environmental allowance.  I am not disputing that.  I am neither raising concern over the malingerers.

The concern that I raise if over the service members who are legitimately injured but who hide and dodge treatment for fear that MELs or recovery will take them away from their environmental allowance.  I have seen this.  I have seen other cases where guys who need to be in JPSU for their recovery fight the process and grow bitter (getting worse) over the loss of an allowance that they really had not been earning over the preceding years.  We should not have a system that provides financial disincentive against seeking help.

The fact that we pay people an environmental allowance without care that they are actually earning that allowance or not ... well, that is just wasteful.  When that wasteful practice is also impeding care, then we should fix things.

Casual allowances are not cumulative. Therefore there is no ability to rise to the next incentive level for SDA.

So?  What is wrong with one level of allowance (something better than present casual rates) which fairly compensates all people equally for the same hardship?

 

[kratz]

Now I see where to call Bu$$ Shit.

Members are always responsible for their own financial affairs.

Why are Canadians on the hook for through VAC for those same  "hardship" members who won't seek medical help when it would actually help them when needed?

MCG (and ilk) are blaming the system for offering an incentive for work.

As a community, if someone says they want to hide an injury to ensure they get onto BMQ, what is our collective answer?

So...a few months later and members are now in units with SDA/LDA, we should change our response to hiding an injury?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Now I see where to call Bu$$ crap.

Members are always responsible for their own financial affairs.

Why are Canadians on the hook for through VAC for those same  "hardship" members who won't seek medical help when it would actually help them when needed?

MCG (and ilk) are blaming the system for offering an incentive for work.

As a community, if someone says they want to hide an injury to ensure they get onto BMQ, what is our collective answer?

So...a few months later and members are now in units with SDA/LDA, we should change our response to hiding an injury?

Reservists get nothing, and some still do not self-identify. The money is one thing, but there are other barriers too IMHO.

Also, AFAIK, 'they' are not 'counting' reservist suicides either, although I am open to being corrected on that point.

 

[McG]

MCG (and ilk) are blaming the system for offering an incentive for work.

It is no incentive for work.  It is incentive to hold onto a spot in the establishment.  It is a reward for a posting message.  An incentive to work would pay for when you do the work. 

I see you are about being entitled to your entitlements.  I think when money is paid for doing something, it should go to those people who do that something.  If it makes you feel better, one could still design a super-casual allowance that that gives credit for past earning.  Then you can still make more than the next guy when you go to sea.

Is loss of environmental allowances the only barrier to seeking help?  No.
That does not mean we should not fix that barrier.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I think there is still some of the stigma attached with having a mental illness in some quarters, or at the very least a perception by some that there is and/or should be a stigma attached.  That is the real barrier such as it remains that really needs to be fully torn down.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I think there is still some of the stigma attached with having a mental illness in some quarters, or at the very least a perception by some that there is and/or should be a stigma attached.  That is the real barrier such as it remains that really needs to be fully torn down.

My guess is that if this is still true in civvy street (and it is), it's probably getting better in the CF because of recent education efforts, but can't be close to zero yet, given how "get 'er done" military folks as a group tend to be.

 

[jollyjacktar]

My guess is that if this is still true in civvy street (and it is), it's probably getting better in the CF because of recent education efforts, but can't be close to zero yet, given how "get 'er done" military folks as a group tend to be.

I believe things are indeed much better today than they were even a few years ago for both the CF and the population at large when it comes to dealing with mental illness.  I don't know if that wall will ever be fully torn down, but I hope so.

There was an intersting story I heard of this week on how Canadian scientists have been able to successfully breach the blood/brain barrier.  They believe this will be "the breakthrough" which will enable much better treatment for things like depression etc.  Here's hoping between education and things like this that people who are suffering can find relief.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Reservists get nothing, and some still do not self-identify. The money is one thing, but there are other barriers too IMHO.

Also, AFAIK, 'they' are not 'counting' reservist suicides either, although I am open to being corrected on that point.

Reserve suicides, although difficult, have been accounted for through the years.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-reports-pubs-health/report-on-suicide-mortality-caf-2015.page

 

[mariomike]

For what it is worth to the discussion,

"It has reported that in 2015, across Canada, there have been 30 first responder suicides and eight Canadian Forces suicides to date. In 2014, from April 29 to December 31, there were 27 first responder deaths by suicide, and 19 Canadian Forces suicides in 2014."
http://www.tema.ca/#!home/c1gd9"

 

[jollyjacktar]

Too, too many, regardless of the members origin of service.  RIP.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Via La Presse (original in French) - Google translation below:

Suicide accounts for a third of deaths in the Canadian Armed Forces for five years, according to data obtained by La Presse. A proportion much higher than the Canadian standard, but that the Defence invites interpreted with caution.

This proportion third of military deaths caused by suicide greatly exceeds the 1.6% that seen in the rest of the Canadian population. It is also three times higher than the percentage of 10% among Canadian men aged 20 to 59 years in 2011, according to Statistics Canada. This subgroup is more representative of the military population, where men make up nearly 85% of the Regular Force.

"Not normal"

"It is a problem. I do not think it's normal that suicides are the third of deaths. They talk, they say it does not make sense, but we do not see action. At least, I do not see them and I do not hear, "says Marie-Josée Huard, President of the Association of Canadian military spouses. His spouse, who served in Bosnia and Afghanistan, suffers itself from post-traumatic stress and has considered suicide, but was "lucky to get help," she said. According to her, support outside the military bases should be part of the solution.

The cream of the cream

In the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF), we urged caution when comparing these statistics with those of the general population. The military are generally younger and healthier, says Dr. Elizabeth Rolland-Harris, an epidemiologist with the CAF. They have, for example, less likely to succumb to disease. "It's still the best of the best," she said. In 2011, the death rate among Canadian men aged 20 to 59 years was 226 deaths per 100,000 people, while, year after year, it ranges between 45 and 70 (per 100,000) in forces ...

More in the original link.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Did they take Reservists into account this time? Or is it just the Regs again?

 

[McG]

A new study has found a link between suicide and having suffered a concussion, and an even steeper link for multiple concussions.  I think this is something that the military needs to investigate to determine if a similar correlation exists with current and former service members.

http://news.nationalpost.com/health/concussions-raise-long-term-suicide-risk-three-to-fourfold-says-new-canadian-study

 

[cdnwo]

In a released article today by the Globe & Mail, it was revealed that at least 70 serving members and veterans from the Afghanistan mission had committed suicide as a result of lack of support when returning.

Why has there never been discussions regarding success linked from service in Bosnia? Swiss Air crash? There were hundreds of military members who were exposed to disaster as well?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/investigations/remembering-31-canadian-afghanistan-war-veterans-lost-to-suicide/article32657290/?campaign_id=A100

 

[mariomike]

Reported Canadian suicides per 100,000 people.

Includes CAF,
https://infogr.am/copy_reported_canadian_first_responder_suicides

You can click each year from 2017 ( year to date ) to 2014.

 

[brihard]

Reported Canadian suicides per 100,000 people.

Includes CAF,
https://infogr.am/copy_reported_canadian_first_responder_suicides

You can click each year from 2017 ( year to date ) to 2014.

That data is of ery dubious quality unfortunately due to the sampling. Also note that it doesn't reliably capture the suicides of released members of any of those organizations. That data simply does not exist for CAF veterans on an ongoing basis, though there was a decent study that captured data from 1972-2006 including the suicide statistics for CAF veterans deceased up to that point. It did find a very significantly higher likelihood of suicide among released reg force military males (about 50% higher, which epidemiologically is huge). We have no good data on released veteran suicide since 2006, and no good suicide data at all on reservists or women.