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Suicides

To have arrived at the conclusion that the study did, it would not have done so by making excuses.  It would have done so by having found the rate of suicide to have no statistically significant difference between personnel who have deployed and personnel who have not deployed.

If there was a flaw in the methodology, it won't be apparent in the news articles.  We will have to wait for the next edition of the Journal of the American Medical Association. 

I think most of us are aware of other research pointing to increased mental injury amongst vets.  Is it conceivable that this higher rate of mental injury does not necessarily mean a higher rate of suicide?
 
You cannot pinpoint one specific cause behind why someone commits suicide or why someone has a mental health issue.  I will point to Maslow's hierarchy of needs:

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The more needs (both physical & psychological) that go unfulfilled or are taken away, the more someone is at risk to suffer from a mental health issue.  To try and pinpoint one thing on why someone is suffering from a mental illness is the wrong approach. 

Teager said:
I find it odd that they are trying to point towards drinking as the cause of suicides. If the member had no drinking problems prior to deployment and then began drinking after deployment there is obviously a connection with deployment. I'm sick of hearing how its always the drinking or drug problem that is for the reason for their behaviour. It may be a contributing factor but there is a reason why they started drinking/drugs. Of course the government won't look into that connection because that will mean $$$.

Heres a link to a more detailed version of the above.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/06/health/soldier-suicides-cause-study/

The funny thing about drinking problems is maybe a person had a drinking problem before but was a functional alcoholic.  When they returned from his deployment it pushed him over the edge.  I have seen a few examples of this in the news where people have come out and said deploying to Afghanistan turned a person into a raging alcoholic.  Maybe but a few cases I have seen, the person already had a drinking problem before they went over and the deployment only exacerbated it.

 
The funny thing about drinking problems is maybe a person had a drinking problem before but was a functional alcoholic.  When they returned from his deployment it pushed him over the edge.  I have seen a few examples of this in the news where people have come out and said deploying to Afghanistan turned a person into a raging alcoholic.  Maybe but a few cases I have seen, the person already had a drinking problem before they went over and the deployment only exacerbated it.

I understand that and believe that they do need to screen people better before deployments to see if there are problems. I have known people both with drinking problems before deployments and people that did not have any problems before but began to have them. I know for some alcohol/drugs is used as a way to numb themselves. I think a further study into problems before and problems after needs to be conducted to better determine causes of suicide.
 
Teager said:
I understand that and believe that they do need to screen people better before deployments to see if there are problems. I have known people both with drinking problems before deployments and people that did not have any problems before but began to have them. I know for some alcohol/drugs is used as a way to numb themselves. I think a further study into problems before and problems after needs to be conducted to better determine causes of suicide.

I think it is also kind of funny that we complain about people having drinking problems yet the first thing we do when they leave theatre is let them go to some all-inclusive resort island to "de-compress"  ::) or let them go on vacation halfway through a combat tour which is quite possibly the stupidest policy ever and no way to fight a war.  Their is a whole lot of things we need to do better and I can think of a bunch off the top of my head:

1.  Better-Screening
2.  Battle Inoculation (We never do this and we need to start, when was the last time anyone actually did a crack & thump range?)
3.  Stop rotating leadership and bumping people around the organization so much so Snr NCOs and Offrs actually get to know their men
4.  Let guys drink alcohol while deployed

I think we need to stop looking for a single cause and just accept that this is an after-effect of the business we are in, we need to look at ways of curbing the side-effects that experiencing traumatic stress can have on our soldiers. 






 
HLTA and decompression are not intended to be booze fests. They are what you make them. If you feel the need to get smashed, that is your prerogative and your decision... No one else's. I would much rather see our soldiers get their first drunk out of the way in a controlled and supportive environment as opposed to waiting until they get home and doing it alone or with their families (who are supportive as well I'm sure but don't understand as well as your fellow soldiers do).
Decompression had proven to be useful and I for one fully support the idea.
Drinking in theatre I think is just asking for trouble. I can't see how ANY good could come off it.
 
RubberTree said:
HLTA and decompression are not intended to be booze fests. They are what you make them. If you feel the need to get smashed, that is your prerogative and your decision... No one else's. I would much rather see our soldiers get their first drunk out of the way in a controlled and supportive environment as opposed to waiting until they get home and doing it alone or with their families (who are supportive as well I'm sure but don't understand as well as your fellow soldiers do).
Decompression had proven to be useful and I for one fully support the idea.
Drinking in theatre I think is just asking for trouble. I can't see how ANY good could come off it.

Don't know about you but if I just spent 6 months with the same people everyday the last thing I really feel like doing is spending more time with them just saying.  HLTA is also a waste of time because it breaks up fighting units at a very critical juncture in a deployment, it can be great for the individual but for the organization it is a bad thing.

As for drinking in theatre, this goes back to treating our soldiers like children.  Many other armies allow alcohol in theatre and seem to get along just fine.  Here is an article highlighting this for your reading pleasure: http://chrishernandezauthor.com/2013/07/09/working-with-the-french-army/
 
I understand your comment about not wanting to spend more time with the same people you have been with for 6 months and anybody who has been on decompression has heard the same thing countless times. It is a valid point but doesn't override the value of having at least a little bit of down time prior to coming home. Everyone wants to get home as soon as possible...But going from a war zone to reading your kids a bedtime story within 18hrs isn't necessarily a great idea. It may work for some but certainly not all and I would guess (my opinion only) not the majority. Canada has been very proactive with a comprehensive decompression program and I stand by my original comment.
My HLTA comment was referring to your statement regarding drinking and HLTA. I fully agree that pulling a team apart in the middle of a deployment isn't a great idea.  But I don't think it encourages alcohol problems in soldiers.
 
RubberTree said:
I understand your comment about not wanting to spend more time with the same people you have been with for 6 months and anybody who has been on decompression has heard the same thing countless times. It is a valid point but doesn't override the value of having at least a little bit of down time prior to coming home. Everyone wants to get home as soon as possible...But going from a war zone to reading your kids a bedtime story within 18hrs isn't necessarily a great idea. It may work for some but certainly not all and I would guess (my opinion only) not the majority. Canada has been very proactive with a comprehensive decompression program and I stand by my original comment.
My HLTA comment was referring to your statement regarding drinking and HLTA. I fully agree that pulling a team apart in the middle of a deployment isn't a great idea.  But I don't think it encourages alcohol problems in soldiers.

If your HLTA ends up being towards the end of your deployment what is the point of decompression? If you go home on HLTA chances are people are going to drink if they choose too. Theres a thread on smokers on here and in it it talks about guys in Bosina that had alcohol. The impression I got from that was there was no real trouble from anyone. If there was a guy that got out of control he was dealt with. Eventally the tours went dry. Even having a 2 or 3 beer maximum imposed in theater would be nice. It gives soldiers the ability to unwind over a drink or two and shoot the sh*t with the guys which can help weed out any issues someone may be having. No different then going to the mess after work IMO.
 
RoyalDrew,

I agree with what you say, except for this:

RoyalDrew said:
2.  Battle Inoculation (We never do this and we need to start, when was the last time anyone actually did a crack & thump range?)

Shooting over people's heads will not prepare them mentally for the smells and sights of blood, guts and burnt flesh. More realistic training with video simshot technology, and including sound and smell would be years ahead of the nothing we have now.
 
I seem to recall another report being released a few months ago that indicated that suicide rates at one base which saw significantly higher deployment rates had higher rates of suicide among those who did not deploy than those that did. If I can remember where the report came from, I'll repost it here.

Also, alcohol and drug abuse is a symptom, not a cause of the problems. In many cases it is a means of self-medication in lieu of seeking treatment for the underlying cause.

Update:

My apologies, the report stated that as many as 1/3 of suicides were by members that did not deploy.

See the thread at the following link for previous discussion on the record number of suicides in 2012.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/108998/post-1201824.html#msg1201824
 
Rider Pride said:
RoyalDrew,

I agree with what you say, except for this:

Shooting over people's heads will not prepare them mentally for the smells and sights of blood, guts and burnt flesh. More realistic training with video simshot technology, and including sound and smell would be years ahead of the nothing we have now.

Of course that was just one of many examples of something that could be done along with lots of other stuff.  Put a bunch of dead pigs in a truck and blow it up, you've got your blood & guts and your smell and with that you could make some pretty good scenarios.  QRF responding to an IED strike comes to mind.



 
RoyalDrew said:
Of course that was just one of many examples of something that could be done along with lots of other stuff.  Put a bunch of dead pigs in a truck and blow it up, you've got your blood & guts and your smell and with that you could make some pretty good scenarios.  QRF responding to an IED strike comes to mind.

Actually did this on my predeployment  :nod:
 
Teager said:
I find it odd that they are trying to point towards drinking as the casue of suicides. If the member had no drinking problems prior to deployment and then began drinking after deployment there is obviously a connection with deployment. I'm sick of hearing how its always the drinking or drug problem that is for the reason for their behaviour. It may be a contributing factor but there is a reason why they started drinking/drugs.

I read the actual study. There is link between mental illness (which alcohol abuse classified as) and suicide.

And that should be no surprise to anyone.
 
... and now a Canadian study that comes to the same conclusion.  Unfortunately, the Canadian study does not look at personnel who have released.  Without data on released personnel (particularly medically released personnel), I don't think the Canadian study is as defensible as the US study.

Military deployment doesn’t increase suicide risk: studies
Experts want longer-term analysis of combat’s effects on mental illness

Gemma Karstens-Smith,
Ottawa Citizen
11 August 2013


OTTAWA — A soldier who has witnessed the tragedies of war firsthand while deployed overseas is not at a greater risk of suicide than a civilian, two new studies suggest.

The number of men active in the Canadian Forces who killed themselves between 1995 and 2012 was lower than the suicide rates of Canadian men, says a March 2013 Surgeon General report on suicide in the Canadian Forces.

“The finding that CF suicide rates are lower than the general Canadian population rates is not surprising as CF personnel are a screened employed population and would be expected to have lower rates of suicide as well as lower rates of other medical problems,” the authors wrote.

Using data from the Canadian Forces and Statistics Canada, the report’s authors compared suicide rates among current soldiers in the regular Canadian Forces who had and had not been deployed overseas to suicide rates among the Canadian population. The report did not look at suicide rates among veterans or reservists.

After comparing the data, the report’s authors concluded that there is no relationship between history of deployment and suicide risk.

The idea that deployment increases suicide risk comes from people trusting anecdotes and stereotypes over data, said Col. Rakesh Jetly, a Canadian Armed Forces psychiatrist and the senior mental health adviser to the Surgeon General.

“We have a Hollywood version of soldiers deploying, coming back broken, using drugs, abusing their wives, killing themselves — that’s the depiction of it,” Jetly said. “That’s the stereotype and maybe there are people like that, but we have data that shows the vast majority don’t have that.”

A study published Wednesday in the Journal of the American Medical Association reached a similar conclusion about deployment and the risk of suicide.

Conducted by researchers at the Naval Health Research Center in San Diego, the study used data from the National Death Index and the Department of Defense’s Medical Mortality Registry, as well as used surveys conducted for the Millennium Cohort Study, which tracks the health of thousands of service members, to look at suicide rates in the U.S. military between July 1, 2001, and Dec. 31, 2008. The data included men and women in the regular forces and the reserves, some of whom were still active and others who were no longer serving in the military.

Suicide rates among active-duty U.S. military personnel rose from about 10.3 per 100,000 persons in 2005 to 16.3 per 100,000 persons in 2008, and the trend was attributed by some researchers and media to deployment in Iraq and Afghanistan. But the new study refutes that link.

“The findings from this study are not consistent with the assumption that specific deployment-related characteristics, such as length of deployment, number of deployments, or combat experiences, are directly associated with increased suicide risk,” the authors wrote.” Instead, the risk factors associated with suicide in this military population are consistent with civilian populations, including male sex and mental disorders.”


However, some experts caution that deployment can lead to mental illness.

“Depression is a huge risk factor in suicide and certainly combat experience does contribute to that,” said Dr. Zul Merali, president and CEO of the Institute of Mental Health Research at the University of Ottawa.

More work needs to be done to get a fuller picture of the long-term effects of deployment on mental illness and suicide risk, Merali said.

“Combat exposure, or a number of exposures, may not directly have an impact (on suicide risk) but that’s not to say these things are not going to come back to haunt you later on.”

Allan English, an expert in military and veteran’s health at Queen’s University, said the Canadian report is an excellent snapshot of current military personnel, but more research is needed on reservists and veterans to get a full picture on how deployment, combat and stress effect mental health.

“Before, I think, we can make the conclusion that deployments or combat doesn’t affect suicide rates or mental health rates, we better do the follow up stories on the veteran populations in a systematic way,” English said.

Other studies such as the 2011 report “Canadian Forces Cancer and Mortality Study: Causes of Death” have looked at the long-term health of serving and released military personnel, Jetly said.

The study followed people who served in the Canadian Forces between 1972 and 2006, monitoring their health and causes of death.

In terms of suicide, the study found similar results to the March 2013 report, with a few exceptions, such as men who served for less than 10 years and were released for involuntary or medical reasons, Jetly said.

The Canadian Forces has one of the most intensive approaches to suicide prevention and investigation in the world, Jetly said, sending a team to investigate every confirmed suicide of Canadian Forces personnel. The results of the investigation help determine trends and shape policy and protocol, Jetly said.

The Canadian Forces have made progress in addressing mental illness, English said, adding that there is still work to be done.

He emphasized that appropriate resources are needed for the programs helping military personnel living with mental illness.

“It’s fine to have them in theory, but if they’re not properly resourced, this could be a contributor towards suicide rates and other bad outcomes,” English said.
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Military+deployment+doesn+increase+suicide+risk+studies/8775995/story.html
 
OK, let us take the numbers at face value.  The next question I ask is - Why did they do it? 
 
GnyHwy said:
OK, let us take the numbers at face value.  The next question I ask is - Why did they do it?

And what could have been done to prevent it?
 
Im not sure if this is the right forum or if any Med types can point me to the right one. Ive been retired for 15 yrs now. I never got to Afghanistan or war like so many of the young guys have. Was in Iraq in 1988 but just a cushy peacekeeping mission. Anyway, have had a lot of problems with depression since retiring. In hospital a couple of times and saw a number of Psychiatrists who just seem to throw more expensive pills at the problem. Some of the pills just made things worse. Medical coverage only covered a few visits. Wow, these guys make 300-500 bucks an hour! So, I still have problems, cant afford the pills or shrinks. Veterans affairs only pays for my medical discharge injuries, ie knees and feet, but not mental health. Feeling kinda left out. Is there anything that the military will do for old washed up soldiers. I realize that serving members and especially the guys who served in war theaters take precedence, but would appreciate any advise or points to a forum that might help. Thanks.
 
apride58 said:
Veterans affairs only pays for my medical discharge injuries, ie knees and feet, but not mental health. Feeling kinda left out. Is there anything that the military will do for old washed up soldiers. I realize that serving members and especially the guys who served in war theaters take precedence, but would appreciate any advise or points to a forum that might help. Thanks.

Not at all. I finally convinced my father to speak with someone from OSISS for stuff he was dealing with from Bosnia. They got him linked right into VAC, and VAC has been paying up front for all his assessments and treatments for his OSI. Get in touch with your closest JPSU/IPSU and muckle onto their resources, they were extremely helpful for my father getting the help he's needed for years, but never knew where to go.
 
PuckChaser said:
Not at all. I finally convinced my father to speak with someone from OSISS for stuff he was dealing with from Bosnia. They got him linked right into VAC, and VAC has been paying up front for all his assessments and treatments for his OSI. Get in touch with your closest JPSU/IPSU and muckle onto their resources, they were extremely helpful for my father getting the help he's needed for years, but never knew where to go.

Thanks for making me feel depressed  ;D
 
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