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Syria Superthread [merged]

Tiamo said:
Bashar is our best friend? Really? His regime had been funneling fighters to Iraq and Lebanon for many years now. Just because there are now more extreme elements in Syria , that Bashar ends up sounding like a good guy! Man who uses missiles against his own people in my opinion is unreliable (if unstable).

We must acknowledge two things: first, Assad and the West have common enemies (and some uncommon ones, too). Second: he's doing more damage to them than we have in many years. So yes, "best friend," in the good old cold war sense. What he's done in the past is irrelevant. He's thrashing our enemies, real or potential, for free. I do not like the man, he is certainly no good guy, but at the present time he is more useful to us than anyone else in Syria. That is what matters.
 
Kernewek said:
We must acknowledge two things: first, Assad and the West have common enemies (and some uncommon ones, too). Second: he's doing more damage to them than we have in many years. So yes, "best friend," in the good old cold war sense. What he's done in the past is irrelevant. He's thrashing our enemies, real or potential, for free. I do not like the man, he is certainly no good guy, but at the present time he is more useful to us than anyone else in Syria. That is what matters.

Under Assad around a hundred thousand lives have been lost. Thousands have been children also.
The Syrian civil war is a harbor for terrorist organizations and could mean that even Al-Qaeda will re-gain their might as a terrorist group. Not to mention the other groups..
Hezbollah is fighting with Assad against the rebels.. (Hezbollan-backed government).
The list goes on, and this could complicate later on, and I know Canadians have had articles on Al-Qaeda's comeback lately.
 
Sigh a long winded post disappeared into the nether world. basically expect a 3 part Syria, Kurdish, Alwatti and Sunni. Expect the Kurds to eventually saying F*ck it to Iraq and Syria and form "Greater Kurdistan" all dependent on good relations with Turkey.
 
They have wanted to do that ever since they set their silly borders that broke up ethnic groupings that had existed before the war.
 
I am amazed that the US and the West have not learned from the historical results of supplying arms to insurgents in not only SW Asia, but also South America and other hell holes, that once they are at a certain stage of their insurgency, they turn their guns on Westerners.
 
Much of the silly borders came from the Ottomans, whose wreckage the west took over. With Syria weakened, Iraqi Shiites in a battle with Sunni's both domestically and in Syria's, the Kurds might quietly tip toe out the door. Frankly if we are going to arm anyone in that area, arm the Kurds, require as part of the deal that they protect Druze and Christians in their area's and work out peace agreements with Turkey. Then we will have a rapidly building Kurdistan and Israel to keep the rest of the nutters in check.
 
Colin P said:
Much of the silly borders came from the Ottomans, whose wreckage the west took over. With Syria weakened, Iraqi Shiites in a battle with Sunni's both domestically and in Syria's, the Kurds might quietly tip toe out the door. Frankly if we are going to arm anyone in that area, arm the Kurds, require as part of the deal that they protect Druze and Christians in their area's and work out peace agreements with Turkey. Then we will have a rapidly building Kurdistan and Israel to keep the rest of the nutters in check.

Now I can buy that logic.
 
Kernewek said:
We must acknowledge two things: first, Assad and the West have common enemies (and some uncommon ones, too). Second: he's doing more damage to them than we have in many years. So yes, "best friend," in the good old cold war sense. What he's done in the past is irrelevant. He's thrashing our enemies, real or potential, for free. I do not like the man, he is certainly no good guy, but at the present time he is more useful to us than anyone else in Syria. That is what matters.

I'd disagree in that assessment. If it wasn't for Bashar hardheaded approach, Syria would not have been dragged into this. Anywhere you see chaos, there will be extremists. Extremism survives on fear and hopelessness.

In fact, I see the Syrian regime a major contributing factor in increasing extremism. It gives a 'cause' for extremists to recruit more young men and women. Bring Hezbollah into the equation and I'd be wondering how all this would be true!
 
Tiamo said:
I'd disagree in that assessment. If it wasn't for Bashar hardheaded approach, Syria would not have been dragged into this. Anywhere you see chaos, there will be extremists. Extremism survives on fear and hopelessness.

In fact, I see the Syrian regime a major contributing factor in increasing extremism. It gives a 'cause' for extremists to recruit more young men and women. Bring Hezbollah into the equation and I'd be wondering how all this would be true!

I agree with most of your premises, but the thing that undermines it is that many, if not most of the extremists, are not Syrians. Second, while chaos can breed extremism - so can its opposite, authority. Syria was anything but chaotic prior to the onset of this war. The fact is that modern Islamic extremism is the product of history, going back far beyond the lifetime of Assad (but perhaps not his father). Whether there is a civil war today, or a peaceful handover of power in 2011 doesn't change that extremism would persist - it would merely be less obvious.

As for his hardheaded approach, I will admit that what he played a part in creating the current civil war. As the saying goes, however, it takes two to tango. If I may be hypothetical the rebels were probably better off as non-violent protesters. However you are being very hypothetical if you believe that there is a better alternative to Assad. I certainly hope that is so, but I seriously doubt it. Given that Syria is a proxy war between the Sunni and Shia powers, each as fundamentalist as their populations will allow (or suffer), I fear a new Syrian regime would go much the same way as the new Iraqi one. However, the war is changing the current regime from within. There is no foretelling what political form Syria may take after an Assad victory. All that is certain is that the status quo is beyond retrieval.
 
In this article, which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from Foreign Policy, a former CIA officer offers a timely reminder about unintended consequences:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/06/14/interview_milton_bearden_arming_syrian_rebels?print=yes&hidecomments=yes&page=full
'Don't Try to Convince Yourself That You're in Control'
Afghan lessons for arming the Syrian rebels from the CIA's mujahideen point man.

BY JOSHUA E. KEATING

JUNE 14, 2013

Thirty-year CIA veteran Milton Bearden knows a thing or two about providing arms to rebels. As a field officer in Pakistan and Afghanistan from 1986 to 1989, he oversaw the $3 billion covert program to arm the Afghan mujahideen to fight the Soviet occupation -- a program that has become the textbook example of how arming rebel groups can have unintended consequences once the war is over.

With the announcement that the United States is planning to begin providing small arms to rebel groups in Syria, Bearden is blunt as to what the CIA's experience in Afghanistan in the 1980s should teach us. "The lesson here is that once we start providing anything to the rebels, we better understand that if they win, we own it," he told Foreign Policy on Friday, June 14. "The big cheerleaders on the Hill for doing this aren't focused on this. The biggest lesson from the Afghan thing was that over a 10-year period we supplied all this stuff and then walked away once the Soviets left. The same Congress that was cheerleading the brave freedom fighters against the Soviet occupation -- and they were brave and they did suffer brutally -- just walked away and wouldn't give them a nickel. If we start arming anyone in this enterprise, implicit in that is that we own it once the Assad regime falls."

Bearden also believes the administration should think carefully before providing the anti-aircraft systems that the Syrian rebels have requested. "If you do, don't try to convince yourself that you're in control," he said. "It was the right thing to give the Afghans the Stinger missile. It was a moral. Otherwise, we were just fighting to the last Afghan and letting them die with a little more dignity. The Stinger did turn things around and force the Soviets to change tactics. But there are still some of those Stingers lying around over there. A shoulder-fired weapon is really something you have to contemplate. Into whose hands should they fall?"

Since last year, media reports have suggested that the CIA is already involved in "vetting" the rebel groups receiving aid from neighboring countries, separating acceptable Syrian combatants from those affiliated with al Qaeda or other anti-Western militants. In Bearden's experience, distinguishing "good" from "bad" rebels is a tricky task.

"People have criticized the CIA effort in Afghanistan because we gave weapons to Islamic fundamentalists," he said. "Well, I don't know how many Presbyterians there are over there. The implication is that if only some history professor could have told us who to give the weapons to, we would have found the Methodists and the Presbyterians. You can try, but you can't do that very well. It's their rebellion. They have their agenda. Our agenda now is to turn up the heat on Bashar al-Assad. [The rebels] have an agenda that goes beyond that, and certainly beyond what they understand on Capitol Hill."

In any event, such vetting only has limited usefulness, said Bearden, since "once you begin arming any rebellion that involves fractious parties in the same rebellion against a common enemy, you've got to understand that the materials you give to the group of your choice will be sold, traded, bartered to most of the other players."

The nature of the operation also determines the type of guns you'll want to send. In Afghanistan, the U.S. aid program was a covert operation, "even though the whole world seemed to know," Bearden said. The CIA, therefore, chose to supply the rebels with Soviet-designed AK-47s purchased from China and Egypt in order to maintain plausible deniability. But Warsaw Pact weapons also had a tactical advantage, since they were interoperable with the weapons already in the field: If the mujahideen captured a Soviet ammunition cache, they could just load the bullets into their own U.S.-provided rifles.

While this is also presumably also true for the rebels fighting Assad's Russian- and Iranian-backed military, Bearden suggests that providing the rebels with "Made in the USA" guns might be one way to control how they're used.

"Since this is not a covert thing, and we're not trying to conceal the U.S. hand in it, you can limit the mobility of the weapons you provide if you were to not use Warsaw Pact equipment," he said. "If you had a specific group you wanted to arm and not have that bleed into the other groups, you could give them U.S. equipment. The ammunition would not be interchangeable with the stuff that's on the battlefield right now. You can then control what happens by monitoring or turning on or off the supply of ammunition to those systems."

But beyond tactics, Bearden says the biggest lesson of Afghanistan is to begin planning for how to handle the aftermath -- before you start sending guns. He believes this could have saved both countries years of grief.

"We needed to say, 'You just lost a million people dead, and million and a half wounded, you have 5 million people driven out into exile in Pakistan and Iran and maybe a million and a half internally displaced persons and a totally destroyed country. We're going to help you!'" Bearden said. "There were seven separate parties, and when we walked away they did what was natural -- [they] began to fight for a very small pie. We now have had to come back in there primarily because of that and have had to spend close to $1 trillion. I have no idea what it would have cost us in 1989, but I guarantee it wouldn't be approaching $1 trillion."

Bearden also believes U.S. politicians should be under no illusions about who will ultimately be held responsible for the outcome in Syria: "Don't say, 'Oh, it's a coalition with the British and the French.' No, it's us. We had a coalition supporting the Afghans against the Soviets. We had the U.K.; we had the Saudis; we had the Chinese for God's sakes! But when it was over, we owned it. And we walked away."


I guess Joel Chandler Harris' Uncle Remus tales are politically incorrect these days; that's too bad because all policy makers should be required to read the story of The Tar Baby.

399px-Brer_Rabbit_and_the_Tar_Baby.jpg


Poor Br'er Rabbit, trying to solve a small problem, gets stuck to
the Tar Baby and the more he flails about the worse his situation
becomes until, finally, his mortal enemy Br'er Fox comes along ...
... but that's another story with a different lesson.



 
George Wallace said:
I am amazed that the US and the West have not learned from the historical results of supplying arms to insurgents in not only SW Asia, but also South America and other hell holes, that once they are at a certain stage of their insurgency, they turn their guns on Westerners.

Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

Stay out of Syria.
 
The latest on Canada vs Syria in this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/harper-rules-out-arming-syrian-rebels-lashes-out-at-putin/article12589214/#dashboard/follows/
Harper rules out arming Syrian rebels, lashes out at Putin

PAUL WALDIE
DUBLIN — The Globe and Mail

Published Sunday, Jun. 16 2013

Prime Minister Stephen Harper has ruled out Canada’s support for arming rebel forces in Syria and lashed out at Russian President Vladimir Putin for supporting the “thugs of the Assad regime.”

“We want to see the opposition in Syria become more representative, less sectarian,” Mr. Harper told reporters after meeting Irish Prime Minister Enda Kenny in Dublin. “We do worry about extremist elements in the opposition, we’re very clear about that.”

He added: “Our aid at the present time, our aid for now, will continue to be humanitarian.”

Mr. Harper’s statements comes on the eve of the G8 meeting in Northern Ireland where Syria is certain to be a major topic. The United States has said it will begin providing some weapons to the rebels after confirming that it believes the Syrian regime has used chemcials weapons. Britain and France have also said Syrian forces used chemical weapons but have yet to indicate if they will support a move to provide arms to the rebels.

Mr. Harper has agreed with the American claims of chemical weapon use, but has gone further than Britain or France in ruling out military support.

The Syrians have rejected the claims, saying the American evidence is based on lies and fabrication. Russia has also questioned the evidence and is preparing to provide weapons to the Syrian government.

“I think you will not deny that one does not really need to support the people who not only kill their enemies, but open up their bodies, eat their intestines, in front of the public and cameras,” Russian President Vladimir Putin said at a joint news conference in London Sunday after meeting with British Prime Minister David Cameron. “Are these the people you want to support? Is it them who you want to supply with weapons?”

Mr. Harper took exception to Mr. Putin’s stance.

"I don’t think we should fool ourselves. This is G7, plus one. That's what this is, G7 plus one," he said.

He added that the West has a very different view than the Russian President.

“Mr. Putin and his government are supporting the thugs of the Assad regime for their own reasons that I do not think are justifiable and Mr. Putin knows my view on that.”

He added that he does not believe any agreement with Mr. Putin is possible at the G8 unless he changes his position.

The Russian President is expected to meet U.S. President Barack Obama at the G8, which begins Monday at the Lough Erne resort.


One can only hope - in vain, to be sure - that other leaders would listen to Harper; they won't of course ... and see my Tar Baby comment from a couple of days ago.
 
Assad and his Alawites are only 14% f the populations. With the level of violence we now see they should expect to be ethnically cleansed if they lose. This is a fight to the bitter end. There is no right side now. I may be jaded but I think the US is arming the rebels because they were losing. They are prolonging hostilities to get at an old Cold War enemy and thorn in Israel's side.

I always though Saddam gave his chemical weapons to Assad.
 
The US should avoid the Syrian civil war.If Assad falls the islamists will take over.Right now the best thing for the US is to protect Jordan and Turkey and let the bad guys kill each other.
 
Caption contest.  Because you know this is a very, very awkward moment.

"How did you end up sending weapons to Syria?"

 
Here is an interesting video from CFR on the threat of spillover from Syria into Iraq, Jordan and Libya. It seems that there is evidence that Qatar and Saudi Arabia are funding the Sunnis, perhaps it is now safe to assume that. As in this video, as well as others from various sources including Frontline, the Qataris, it seems from listening to these experts, are the ones who seem to be only funding the jihadis. There seems to be, I thought,  the mention that Saudi Arabia, has been funding various rebel groups with different ideologies. Does anyone possibly have an idea as to why and if so what interest Qatar has in seeming to fund only more radical jihadi groups. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq1awsHhJog
 
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