Tac Vest does not make the grade.

[old fart]

I used a SORD rig for a year...it served its purpose well. Nothing fell apart, it stood up. 

I have to add I was given this rig....but after a year in the Sandbox can relate to the many that have resorted to getting their own gear due to the result of a woefully inadequate issue TAC Vest.

Obtaining your own gear is reminiscent of the old days in the Brit Army with everyone obtaining kit to make up for the useless crap we were issued in the 70s and 80s. Not the case for Brits by and large these days.

In my estimation it beat the stuff hands down issued to our ski-mask gang (not sure what the brand is) and fits the bill across the board. I had a radio and hydration pouch on the rear panel.

I rarely wore the FRAG Vest with it, just opted for the plates augmented with some Kevlar

Old fart...31+ and still ticking...

 

[RCR Grunt]

OK. Good insights into what works and what doesn't. Let's stay within the parameters of what is realistic though. If DLR had to take design ideas from a variety of rigs (or one rig in particular) or MOTS purchase one design, it would still have to conform to what soldiers have to wear with the load bearing kit, ie PPE. So far TT MAV 2-piece and CP Gear MOFOCR stand out, unless someone in the know would like to see design elements of both incorporated. These rigs are designed to work mainly in conjunction with a frag vest, thus are suitable for the average Canadian soldier. Any other suggestions that worked well overseas?
CP and SOF applications are another ball of wax altogether and may require another top 3 list.

Rumour has it that DLR is looking into a tav vest v2.0 project in the near-mid-term (maybe enough UCRs have hit the right mark or some commander was fed up with the status quo), however no idea what the output may be or how DLR has come up with their choises (aside from what has been mentioned earlier about various trial pieces floating around).

Note: I do not/not work at DLT. Just trying to get a handle of a summary of what has been said in the pages before.

There is a Load Carriage Jury commencing next week.  It's goal is to find a replacement for the TAC vest.  The basis is "show and tell."  Each reg force Bn is sending 2 soldiers with recent operational experience.  In addition there will be 8 reps from other combat arms trades as well as some folks from CFLAWC and DLR and some science weinies.  Different rigs will be trialed, 2 or 3 will be selcted for futher trials, 1 will be selcted to procure 3 BG's worth or 5000.  All to bne completed by 2009-2010.  I'll let you know how it goes when I get back.  Expect pics and summary around 20JUL09.

The skeptic in me says it's not going to go smooth.  I predict that there is already a model that someone has chosen and that will be espoused as the next greatest thing since sliced bread and the machine gun.  I predict that any input we make will be ignored by science and human factors and the fighting soldier will be stuck with another ill designed piece of equipment.  I hope I'm wrong.  I pray to Odin I'm wrong, I want this to work. 

Keep your fingers crossed.

 

[medaid]

I rarely wore the FRAG Vest with it, just opted for the plates augmented with some Kevlar

Ah... ah... see?! Not doing what CTS or DLR wants you to do. Which is to wear the FRAG vest in conjunction with the plate no?

If everyone wen the plate carrier route, it would allow ease of movement and closer nicer fit, but at the same time, it would limit coverage.

 

[old fart]

Coverage...I had Side SAPIs stuffed in the utility pouches and like I said kevlar in all parts of the plate carriers (essentially wherever there was a plate behind that providing additional protection I had kevlar). I still had room for a PLB behind the small utility and a drop pouch behind the large utility (which carried most of my med kit).

I have seen the other stuff and now know one rig to be Tactical Tailor, that looked liked cheap shit to me..and the CP Gear everything I did not want. 

We need to go to a decent one piece rig that does the job...the USMC are spending tons of cash on this...even their cast offs are better than what we have.

All things considered....its a balance of access, protection and mobility. I got that in spades from the SORD rig...not one seam let go, unlike various seams in my combats

I hope the powers that be..shift from the two piece drama (FRAG and TAC Vest)..and opt for the all in one.  Of course others will think differently..their choice of course.

Old fart...

 

[Fusaki]

I hope the powers that be..shift from the two piece drama (FRAG and TAC Vest)..and opt for the all in one.  Of course others will think differently..their choice of course.

The reason alot of us would like to stay away from only having modular body armour is this:  Every soldier in a rifle company needs to be able to pull sentry shifts in the LAV3 turret, or other wise strip off his bulky fighting gear but keep his PPE in order to perform a myriad of other tasks.  IMHO, we NEED the option of a modular vest or chest rig that can be worn over armour.

In my perfect world we'd be issued PPE that fits the following criteria:

1)  Modular. Covered in MOLLE webbing, for those in roles where attaching pouches directly to the armour is practical.

2)  Releasable. For emergency doffing similar to the CIRAS, RAV, or the new US Army issued flak vest

3) Scalable. An armour system that the soldier in the field can set up as a full flak vest with neck guard, shoulder and groin protection, and side SAPIs.  Then the next day, the soldier should be able to strip it all the way down to a plate carrier without even a cumberbund.

This PPE would be in addition to a modular TV or chest rig, and a Ruck / Small Pack that's actually designed to integrate with it.

To my knowledge the PPE system I've described above doesn't yet exist. In my mind though, it would probably look like a cross between an Eagle CIRAS and an Eagle Plate carrier.  I'll bet though, that within the next 5 years what I've described above is the industry standard.

 

[R031button]

I predict that there is already a model that someone has chosen and that will be espoused as the next greatest thing since sliced bread and the machine gun.  I predict that any input we make will be ignored by science and human factors and the fighting soldier will be stuck with another ill designed piece of equipment.  I hope I'm wrong.  I pray to Odin I'm wrong, I want this to work. 

I would have to agree with that prediction. I don't know if it's the same people, but when they came buy to talk to B Coy 1VP during 1-08's work up that was very much the way things went. Not to get all conspiracy theory on the topic, but the impression that I got was that decisions had already been made, and that looking for soldier input was a formality. That was based on the way the discussion was developed, trying to shift wording to contradict other soldiers and display the company as not being able to decide on what it wanted, which of course is exactly the point of a modular system, but I digress. 

"Human Factors" seem to be the ace in the hole for the pro tac vest crowd. In the TAV AAR done by DLR these factors, which seem to be left as vague as possible, are used to deride most off the shelf options troops were using.

Personally I think the most likely option we'll see is simply the tac vest with molle stitched over it. Ideal? Probably not. Functional? Most likely.

 

[RCR Grunt]

Plate carriers and armor with pouches attached are fine if your doing DA's out of Hummer's, but don't work for the myriad of jobs and tasks that the average combat arms soldier will be asked to do throughout the full spectrum of operations.

Artillerymen don't want to carry their mags while conducting gun drills.

Combat engineer's don't want to be overburdened while prodding a mine field.

Armored crewmen don't fit in a tank with pouches for this and that strapped to them.

Snipers and recce soldiers may not want to wear armor on patrol. 

Infantrymen don't want to wear full battle rattle while sitting in an OP on a FOB or while digging a trench or filling sandbags.

What works in the current COE may not be ideal for the next.  Afghanistan is but a blip on the radar of the CF, soon it will be gone.

Planning and equipping our forces for blips is what got us into the TAC vest in the first.

A new rig must be adaptable for any task in any potential theater.

Modular is the key, with Molle / PALS being the international gold standard.

A plate carrier or modular armor, and by that I mean pouches mounted to armor for load carriage, is not acceptable.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

A plate carrier or modular armor, and by that I mean pouches mounted to armor for load carriage, is not acceptable.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss that as an option.  The US Army is moving towards a dual platform system whereby their IOTV (soft body armour with plates) and their soon-to-be-selected plate carrier system will both have a cable release system.  If you're running a separate load-bearing rig over either system, you render the cable release feature useless, and in some 'big-Army' units, it's become SOP not to have guys allowed to wear separate rigs over their IOTVs for just this reason; The soldiers are made to attach their pouches directly to the IOTV.

Some US companies and PEO-Soldier (their version of DLR/DSSPM) is looking at the ability to take modular panels and have them attach to the IOTV or plate carrier.
Tactical Tailor is one of the first companies to offer such a system commercially:
http://www.tacticaltailor.com/IOTVmodularassaultpanel.aspx
-this gives you the ability to add or detach a load-bearing panel directly to the IOTV without hindering the operation of the cable-release feature.

As CPGear expands its offerings into the US market, I'm also working on something similar for the IOTV and plate carrier.

 

[old fart]

Plate carriers and armor with pouches attached are fine if your doing DA's out of Hummer's, but don't work for the myriad of jobs and tasks that the average combat arms soldier will be asked to do throughout the full spectrum of operations.

Artillerymen don't want to carry their mags while conducting gun drills.

Combat engineer's don't want to be overburdened while prodding a mine field.

Armored crewmen don't fit in a tank with pouches for this and that strapped to them.

Snipers and recce soldiers may not want to wear armor on patrol. 

Infantrymen don't want to wear full battle rattle while sitting in an OP on a FOB or while digging a trench or filling sandbags.

What works in the current COE may not be ideal for the next.  Afghanistan is but a blip on the radar of the CF, soon it will be gone.

Planning and equipping our forces for blips is what got us into the TAC vest in the first.

A new rig must be adaptable for any task in any potential theater.

Modular is the key, with Molle / PALS being the international gold standard.

A plate carrier or modular armor, and by that I mean pouches mounted to armor for load carriage, is not acceptable.

Agreed - Whom ever invented the Molle system got it right, a system that can be adapted by the wearer configured as need be. 

The SORD SCS system http://www.sordaustralia.com/Items1.php?parentid=84 is well designed and adaptable for the task at hand and can be used in conjunction as can other with the issued FRAG vest.

I would even lean to staying with a two piece affair, meaning the issued FRAG vest with a decent complimentary Molle system issued and adapted as required.

The majority of your post was about nothing.  I disagree completely blowing off a decent plate carrier as easy as you do.  If I deployed again, I would be happy to stay with a SORD rig configured to my needs.

Signed Old Fart, ageing Combat Engineer, Armoured Engineer, Airborne Engineer (Airborne Regiment) and EOD Fella...

 

[NL_engineer]

I like the idea Wonderbread has, but it does need a removable panel that, all your fighting can be taken off when not needed (walking around the FOB I operate out of)

I seen one of the panels that Matt is talking about.  One of the US army guys we had working with us had one on his vest. Another had a molle rig that tied into the armor release system (not sure where he got it from, but the design is out their).

 

[armyvern]

The reason alot of us would like to stay away from only having modular body armour is this:  Every soldier in a rifle company needs to be able to pull sentry shifts in the LAV3 turret, or other wise strip off his bulky fighting gear but keep his PPE in order to perform a myriad of other tasks.  IMHO, we NEED the option of a modular vest or chest rig that can be worn over armour.

In my perfect world we'd be issued PPE that fits the following criteria:

1)  Modular. Covered in MOLLE webbing, for those in roles where attaching pouches directly to the armour is practical.

2)  Releasable. For emergency doffing similar to the CIRAS, RAV, or the new US Army issued flak vest

3) Scalable. An armour system that the soldier in the field can set up as a full flak vest with neck guard, shoulder and groin protection, and side SAPIs.  Then the next day, the soldier should be able to strip it all the way down to a plate carrier without even a cumberbund.

This PPE would be in addition to a modular TV or chest rig, and a Ruck / Small Pack that's actually designed to integrate with it.

To my knowledge the PPE system I've described above doesn't yet exist. In my mind though, it would probably look like a cross between an Eagle CIRAS and an Eagle Plate carrier.  I'll bet though, that within the next 5 years what I've described above is the industry standard.

You do realize of course that posts containing as much common sense as the above will result in your future nomination for ATWO course and employment within the bowels of NDHQ for the remainder of your life.

 

[RCR Grunt]

You do realize of course that posts containing as much common sense as the above will result in your future nomination for ATWO course and employment within the bowels of NDHQ for the remainder of your life.

He has nothing to worry about.  He's an RSM... Retired Service Member.

His idea is golden, but would take years for DLR to design, test, trial, redesign, put out for bids and award contracts for. 

In the mean time, there is whatever the Load Carriage Jury comes up with.

 

[OldSolduer]

I still have the old 82 pattern web gear. The more things change......

 

[RCR Grunt]

I still have the old 82 pattern web gear. The more things change......

That's basically what we're looking to push ... Molle / Pals web gear, but in a vesty kind of way.

We're also toying with pitching the idea of the Modular Marsupial Pouch, or the MMP.  But only if the whole thing starts to go south.

Basically, one big pouch with an inner coating of pink, gelatinous goo to hold all your kit inside of it.  Evolution cannot be wrong, marsupials are the wave of the future!  You'll soon see the highest speed, lowest drag of operator's sporting the MMP!

 

[armyvern]

He has nothing to worry about.  He's an RSM... Retired Service Member.

Well, he should worry that Canada decides to institute a draft policy after finding such common sense post on the internet ... just for him. That would suck.

 

[George Wallace]

Well, he should worry that Canada decides to institute a draft policy after finding such common sense post on the internet ... just for him. That would suck.

Come on.  Look at you.  You are starting to sound like you have some commons sense.  We all know, after years of Service, that if it makes sense, it sure as hell is not going to happen. 

Could you see it now.  Canada institutes a Draft geared at bringing back all the experienced Ex-military, and we get a whole crop of GreenLovingBirkenstockWearingTreeHuggingLeftWingCommieHippies caught up in the process......All of a sudden common sense is back to SOP and SALY.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

We're also toying with pitching the idea of the Modular Marsupial Pouch, or the MMP.  But only if the whole thing starts to go south.

Basically, one big pouch with an inner coating of pink, gelatinous goo to hold all your kit inside of it.  Evolution cannot be wrong, marsupials are the wave of the future!  You'll soon see the highest speed, lowest drag of operator's sporting the MMP!

Sounds like you're describing the CPGear MPAK Kangaroo http://www.cpgear.com/StoreBox/tacvestaccessories/4074.htm

*note does not include the pink gelatinous adhesive goo

 

[RCR Grunt]

Sounds like you're describing the CPGear MPAK Kangaroo http://www.cpgear.com/StoreBox/tacvestaccessories/4074.htm

*note does not include the pink gelatinous adhesive goo

I'm talkin' BIGGER.  Like 10 mags, 4 frags, 4 liters of water and an IFAK with some NODs tossed in big.  And without the goo it's just another pocket, the goo is the key.

It's very advanced.

 

[Soldier1stTradesman2nd]

In a pinch, you can eat it as well.

 

[NL_engineer]

That's basically what we're looking to push ... Molle / Pals web gear, but in a vesty kind of way.

We're also toying with pitching the idea of the Modular Marsupial Pouch, or the MMP.  But only if the whole thing starts to go south.

Basically, one big pouch with an inner coating of pink, gelatinous goo to hold all your kit inside of it.  Evolution cannot be wrong, marsupials are the wave of the future!  You'll soon see the highest speed, lowest drag of operator's sporting the MMP!

You know that they actually may try this :  Well they listened to our suggestions to improve KAF, and then decided again to tighten the dress policy (because uniformity is required to fight  :).  Soon they will be giving us an emergency issue of DEU;s to wear so we are all uniform (we are still fighting the blouse your boots battle/other dress issues)  :.