TASER OPINIONS?
- Thread starter pbi
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My purely civvie - news watcher perspective...........
I'm inclined to agree with you here Karl and I am also inclined to think the Taser
should remain in service.
But, with all of the tragic occurrences of late involving the RCMP, I'm inclined to suspect
a training problem.
From the fallen four incident in Maythorpe to this one it appears these tragedies
could all have been avoided. I repeat - I don't know but that how things appear.
If I'm wrong tell me, but there's my opinion.
I'm inclined to agree with you here Karl and I am also inclined to think the Taser
should remain in service.
But, with all of the tragic occurrences of late involving the RCMP, I'm inclined to suspect
a training problem.
From the fallen four incident in Maythorpe to this one it appears these tragedies
could all have been avoided. I repeat - I don't know but that how things appear.
If I'm wrong tell me, but there's my opinion.
- Reaction score
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Otto Fest said:
Awww, never mind.........way below the level of intelligence I expect from this website.
Bruce
- Reaction score
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This may shed some light though......
Otto Fest said:
- Reaction score
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Removing the taser removes an intervention tool, which would limit response options. There was no reasonable expectation that Mr Dziekanski would die from being tasered.
IMHO the use of the taser was appropriate in this instance. If there is concern on aspects of it's employment, then by all means study it, make recommendations and adopt a different policy. I fail to see how being jumped on by four Mounties and physically wrestled into submisssion is more acceptable than the use of a taser to incapcitate.
Mr Dziekanski demonstrated a willingness to violently use what he had to hand. Het met the RCMP criteria for being combative. The Mounties made the call and acted. To judge them after the fact with knowledge that they wouldn't possibly have at the time, is wrong on many levels. It's also wrong to minimize the actions of the subject prior to his death and a lot of reporters are doing just that.
Yes, it was sad that Mr Dziekanski died, but murder? Can't see it.
IMHO the use of the taser was appropriate in this instance. If there is concern on aspects of it's employment, then by all means study it, make recommendations and adopt a different policy. I fail to see how being jumped on by four Mounties and physically wrestled into submisssion is more acceptable than the use of a taser to incapcitate.
Mr Dziekanski demonstrated a willingness to violently use what he had to hand. Het met the RCMP criteria for being combative. The Mounties made the call and acted. To judge them after the fact with knowledge that they wouldn't possibly have at the time, is wrong on many levels. It's also wrong to minimize the actions of the subject prior to his death and a lot of reporters are doing just that.
Yes, it was sad that Mr Dziekanski died, but murder? Can't see it.
A
aesop081
Guest
Murder ?
http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/M.aspx
I'm no lawyer but are you saying the RCMP intended to kill this guy ?
:
http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/M.aspx
I'm no lawyer but are you saying the RCMP intended to kill this guy ?
:
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maybe not murder but criminal negligence causing death. as the vid that all are up in the air about shows ZERO attemps at first aid . :-\
Every one is criminally negligent who in doing anything, or in omitting to do anything that it is his duty to do, shows wanton or reckless disregard for the lives or safety of other persons."
The Canadian Judicial Council's standard set of jury instructions includes this extract on topic:
"The Crown must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the acused's conduct showed a marked departure from the conduct of a reasonable person in the circumstances; and that a reasonable person in the same circumstances would have foreseen that this conduct posed a risk of bodily harm.
"Bodily harm" is any hurt or injury that interferes with a person's health or comfort and is more than brief or minor. In deciding what a reasonable person would have done or foreseen, you must not take into account (the accused's) individual characteristics or experiences."
Every one is criminally negligent who in doing anything, or in omitting to do anything that it is his duty to do, shows wanton or reckless disregard for the lives or safety of other persons."
The Canadian Judicial Council's standard set of jury instructions includes this extract on topic:
"The Crown must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the acused's conduct showed a marked departure from the conduct of a reasonable person in the circumstances; and that a reasonable person in the same circumstances would have foreseen that this conduct posed a risk of bodily harm.
"Bodily harm" is any hurt or injury that interferes with a person's health or comfort and is more than brief or minor. In deciding what a reasonable person would have done or foreseen, you must not take into account (the accused's) individual characteristics or experiences."
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I've been watching the newscasts and the endless rerun of the video for the last few days and must say I'm baffled by two things.
1. Why they decided to use the Taser even before they talked to the man (one mountie asks another clearly on the video as they are entering the arrival hall if they should use the taser and is answered in the affirmative)
2. Why they didn't attempt first aid or call for paramedics to revive the man.
I have many friends in the RCMP and two nieces on the Force, both in BC, and a lot of them are pretty tight lipped on this incident as we would be with the public if our comrades were in the soup.
I think all parties are owed a full, open and honest inquiry to get to the bottom of this so it doesn't happen more often.
1. Why they decided to use the Taser even before they talked to the man (one mountie asks another clearly on the video as they are entering the arrival hall if they should use the taser and is answered in the affirmative)
2. Why they didn't attempt first aid or call for paramedics to revive the man.
I have many friends in the RCMP and two nieces on the Force, both in BC, and a lot of them are pretty tight lipped on this incident as we would be with the public if our comrades were in the soup.
I think all parties are owed a full, open and honest inquiry to get to the bottom of this so it doesn't happen more often.
- Reaction score
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- Points
- 210
IN HOC SIGNO said:
+1 as well.
It seems fairly obvious that some person or persons definately crapped the bed on this one... but was it the RCMP? I think alot of responsibility lies with immigration, Border Services, and the airport themselves... questions like why he was detained for 10 hours, why no interpreter was ever brought in. etc.. etc.. I look forward to seeing what the investigation will find. to see where the fault truly lies, and hope that occurances like this dont happen again..
as far as my views on the Taser, being a Dumb Civie more or less... I like the option that police have with regards to it being deployed as an intermediate weapon. I think it needs to be reassesed though.. the common perception is that it is a last chance before the gun type of thing.. and clearly the LEO's in the feild and those in the know are saying it is better then the other intermediates of spray and stick... if we are going to use it as often as we do, then it should be re-classified, as such... in the sense that the public are aware of it being used in such a way... and so the public doesnt have a perception that it is becomming a Convenience Weapon...
And as it was said before... If you dont want to be on the recieving end of a use of force report, then dont antagonize LEO's..... common sense really.....
though a couple of the posts before mine certainly showed a real lack of that... or maybe it was just sour grapes...
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I always marvel when military people engage in broad brush indictments against the police. I have yet to every hear any of my colleauges make a wholesale panning comment about the military. Where the animosity comes from, I don't really know. I frequently hear "you don't question the guys on the ground" held out for military field operations but maybe that doesn't apply to the police?
I notice a few things about the video that I saw off of YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeViFiODSYo
1. The guy is already breathing really heavy and laboured before anyone engages him. I can't think of a mental health condition that might do that, except a panic attack. I am no expert, though. However, it would be consistant with someone who had ingested a quantity of drugs.
2. He is wielding weapons of opportunity before the police get there. This info would be relayed to any officers inbound from the security, and would start creating a picture for them.
3. Surely, by now, some Polish speaking person could translate parts of the vid, so we could know what he was going on about?
4. It is clear from the comments and behaviour of the other people around that some sort of abnormal incident is going on. At 2:45 the guy is certainly wielding the table as a weapon.
5. At 4:05 he is throwing things in the presence of the security who are now on scene. Camera guy says "whoa, right in front of the cops, too" (sic)
6. At 6:48 the subject becomes hostile and starts kicking something. Regardless of not speaking Polish, the officers are giving hand directions, and it isn't a big mystery what they are trying to get him to do, which is stop walking around. The subject then advances on the middle officer and raises his fist. He is demonstrating assaultive behavior, and the use of the taser is justified. There are also a number of loose items still around and about that can end up weapons of opportunity again. It is at that point he gets nailed.
7. He continues to struggle and writhe on the floor. In any situation, until the subjects hands are brought under control, the officers are in danger.
8. Subject continues to struggle (not convulse :) and scream at least until 8:28.
9. At 8:58 there is a break in the video stream, but from the positions of the officers it would appear that very little time has passed. Although the subject is not moving, that doesn't rule out him not being a threat. I personally have dealt with a number of mental health issue persons who had maniac crazy strength while they were fighting and then went completely catatonic, only to go back to being raging maniacs in a heart beat.
10. The officer is seen checking the guys pulse, but there is nothing to say that there wasn't one at that point.
My opinion.
There was one justified administration of the taser. It did its job, and got the guy on the ground. The Mounties didn't pound the crap out of him, or repeatedly tase him. IMO they used quite a bit of restraint, and there is no indication whatsoever that the taser killed this guy.
When someone dies from excited delirium, it is because the person has exerted themselves beyond the bodies ability to survive. Only after the adrenaline wears off do they "realize" that they are dead, and then the body catches up. This appears to be the case.
I would also be very interested in finding out the results of the tox screen on this guy after the autopsy results are in. If he was body packing drugs, and something broke, that might explain his behavior. Remember, he didn't plan on being in the airport that long, and any packaging for the drugs could have deteriorated. If he wasn't on drugs, he was most certainly having some sort of mental breakdown.
IMO the taser is effective, safe, and is really the most humane option in the situation. It gets the guy to the ground unharmed, and allows the officer to get the subject under control. When people die after these deals, it is always found that they would have anyway regardless of the taser. But the taser is new, and for some reason is some sort of media boogey man that draws all kinds of attention and bad press. It's all bullshit. All that is going to happen is some misinformed wad is going to recommend that we not be allowed to use tasers anymore, and then look to see more shootings and lingering injuries on bad guys. Don't think that I'm saying it like that is a bad thing, but it's just the reality of the situation. As already mentioned, people die when any sort of force is used from time to time.
Seems to me Chris Rock had some helpful tips about how to avoid negative police attention at one point.
I notice a few things about the video that I saw off of YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeViFiODSYo
1. The guy is already breathing really heavy and laboured before anyone engages him. I can't think of a mental health condition that might do that, except a panic attack. I am no expert, though. However, it would be consistant with someone who had ingested a quantity of drugs.
2. He is wielding weapons of opportunity before the police get there. This info would be relayed to any officers inbound from the security, and would start creating a picture for them.
3. Surely, by now, some Polish speaking person could translate parts of the vid, so we could know what he was going on about?
4. It is clear from the comments and behaviour of the other people around that some sort of abnormal incident is going on. At 2:45 the guy is certainly wielding the table as a weapon.
5. At 4:05 he is throwing things in the presence of the security who are now on scene. Camera guy says "whoa, right in front of the cops, too" (sic)
6. At 6:48 the subject becomes hostile and starts kicking something. Regardless of not speaking Polish, the officers are giving hand directions, and it isn't a big mystery what they are trying to get him to do, which is stop walking around. The subject then advances on the middle officer and raises his fist. He is demonstrating assaultive behavior, and the use of the taser is justified. There are also a number of loose items still around and about that can end up weapons of opportunity again. It is at that point he gets nailed.
7. He continues to struggle and writhe on the floor. In any situation, until the subjects hands are brought under control, the officers are in danger.
8. Subject continues to struggle (not convulse :
) and scream at least until 8:28.9. At 8:58 there is a break in the video stream, but from the positions of the officers it would appear that very little time has passed. Although the subject is not moving, that doesn't rule out him not being a threat. I personally have dealt with a number of mental health issue persons who had maniac crazy strength while they were fighting and then went completely catatonic, only to go back to being raging maniacs in a heart beat.
10. The officer is seen checking the guys pulse, but there is nothing to say that there wasn't one at that point.
My opinion.
There was one justified administration of the taser. It did its job, and got the guy on the ground. The Mounties didn't pound the crap out of him, or repeatedly tase him. IMO they used quite a bit of restraint, and there is no indication whatsoever that the taser killed this guy.
When someone dies from excited delirium, it is because the person has exerted themselves beyond the bodies ability to survive. Only after the adrenaline wears off do they "realize" that they are dead, and then the body catches up. This appears to be the case.
I would also be very interested in finding out the results of the tox screen on this guy after the autopsy results are in. If he was body packing drugs, and something broke, that might explain his behavior. Remember, he didn't plan on being in the airport that long, and any packaging for the drugs could have deteriorated. If he wasn't on drugs, he was most certainly having some sort of mental breakdown.
IMO the taser is effective, safe, and is really the most humane option in the situation. It gets the guy to the ground unharmed, and allows the officer to get the subject under control. When people die after these deals, it is always found that they would have anyway regardless of the taser. But the taser is new, and for some reason is some sort of media boogey man that draws all kinds of attention and bad press. It's all bullshit. All that is going to happen is some misinformed wad is going to recommend that we not be allowed to use tasers anymore, and then look to see more shootings and lingering injuries on bad guys. Don't think that I'm saying it like that is a bad thing, but it's just the reality of the situation. As already mentioned, people die when any sort of force is used from time to time.
Seems to me Chris Rock had some helpful tips about how to avoid negative police attention at one point.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 160
After hearing all the media spin and opinions on this over the last few day's I'm glad Zipperhead_cop said exactly what I was thinking.
The video is only a short glimpse of what really happened. It appears to me that the TASER was used as per usual Police protocol. I do not think that the individual RCMP officers are to blame. Excited Delirium is a cause of death post TASER and should really be researched by those commenting so heavily on this issue.
While I am not a LEO I have put together and delivered the Medical Response to TASER course for 2 large Police and EMS stems and a large ER. I have also treated several persons post TASER. All the facts are not in here and I think a rush to judgement is being made here by many.
Many factors could have contributed to this Mans death. We need ALL the facts.
The video is only a short glimpse of what really happened. It appears to me that the TASER was used as per usual Police protocol. I do not think that the individual RCMP officers are to blame. Excited Delirium is a cause of death post TASER and should really be researched by those commenting so heavily on this issue.
While I am not a LEO I have put together and delivered the Medical Response to TASER course for 2 large Police and EMS stems and a large ER. I have also treated several persons post TASER. All the facts are not in here and I think a rush to judgement is being made here by many.
Many factors could have contributed to this Mans death. We need ALL the facts.
- Reaction score
- 3
- Points
- 430
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071115.BC-TaserTranscript16/BNStory/National
Following Dziekanski's final encounter
TRANSLATION BY CYNTHIA YOO AND RAFAL GERSZAK
Globe and Mail Update
November 15, 2007 at 10:05 PM EST
Vancouver — Voice off camera: Computer's on?
Voice off camera: What language do you speak?
Muffled responses, comments off camera.
Voice off camera: Just look at his face!
Voice off camera: There's 300 people coming in...coming in.
Muffled comments off camera.
Voice off camera: He did it. He almost threw the chair through the window to get out. Look at it. Look...
Muffled voices talk excitedly off camera.
Mr. Dziekanski paces the whole length of the secure arrivals area, walking back to the entrance doors.
Dziekanski: Breathing deeply. I'm going to break this desk. Is this going to continue?
Muffled voices off camera.
Voice off camera: Is there anybody at the door?
Voice off camera: I can't believe he's ... out!
Voice off camera: Nobody's here...from security.
Muffled voices off camera.
Voice off camera: Just five minutes before ...comes down with 300 people on it...
Dziekanski: Holding and waving a small wooden fold-up stool at the entrance door, speaking in Polish. I'm going to break windows. I'm going to break this window here.
Voice off camera: ...something's wrong with him.
Voice off camera: ... is Russian. He speaks Russian.
Voice off camera: Is that what he's speaking? I don't even know what he's speaking.
Voice off camera: What language do you speak?
Voice off camera: He doesn't speak English...
Voice off camera: Russian? Russian?
Muffled voices off camera.
Voice off camera: Ruskian? Nope.
Dziekanski: Mr. Dziekanski holds and waves a small wooden fold-up stool in the entrance doors. I will not allow them.
Voice off camera: There's nothing wrong! There's nothing wrong...it's okay.
Voice off camera: We need a Russian interpreter. We need someone to open the arrivals area...
Dziekanski: Still holding the stool in the entrance doors, I'm going to report on you and the rest of them.
Voice off camera: Calm down.
Dziekanski: Fine, fine. Takes a breath. We'll see.
Woman walks over to Mr. Dziekanski, motioning to him, holding out her hand.
Woman: Calm down. She motions to him, holding out her hand in order to communicate with him.
Dziekanski: Still holding stool, pacing in the entrance doors,. Get away. Get away.
Muffled voices off camera.
Dziekanski: Swears.
Muffled voices off camera.
Woman : Motioning to Mr. Dziekanski. Calm down please.
Woman tries to communicate through the clear glass partition, with Mr. Dzienkanski who has gone into the arrivals area.
Dziekanski: (Inaudible)
Woman: ....Excuse me...I know I know...
Mr. Dziekanski and the woman speak through the partition, nodding and motioning.
Woman walks back away from partition.
Muffled voices off camera.
Voice off camera: Look! He's got a computer...
Mr. Dziekanski throws some laptop or computer on to the glass partition.
Voice off camera: Whoa.
Voice off camera: Right in front of the cops too.
Voice off camera: Jesus Christ.
Mr. Dziekanski holds up an electric equipment and attempts to throw it.
Voices off camera: No no no.
Mr. Dziekanski puts down the equipment rather than throwing it.
Two airport security officer come to the entrance doors and Mr. Dziekanski comes to the doors to meet them.
Voice off camera: He speaks Russian and nobody can help him...You need a Russian interpreter here to calm him down. Cathay's coming down in five minutes.
Voice off camera: ...Russian interpreter.
Voice off camera: ...Can you call Customs and tell them to stop it....
Voice off camera: He is so scared...just leave him.
Voice off camera: Why are the police not here? We called security, we called the police.
Voice off camera: Calm down, calm down please.
Camera turns to police.
Dziekanski: Mr. Dziekanski screams. Police! Police!
Police speaks to him and points. They motion him to inside and they point to a spot on the ground and they encircle him.
Dziekanski: What are you doing? An RCMP officer points at him. There's nothing here .
An RCMP officer shoots him with a Taser.
RCMP officer: Get down, get down!
Dziekanski: (Screams as he falls to the ground)
Police fire two more Taser blasts.
RCMP officer: Get a Taser.
RCMP officer: Put your hands up.
RCMP officer: Get him down, get him down!
Dziekanski continues to struggle, scream
Security guard: Operations…(unintelligible)
Dziekanski: Oh, no! It's pinching.
Four RCMP officers pin Mr. Dziekanski as they restrain him.
Dziekanski: Bandit!
Pritchard: Jesus.
RCMP officer: Get his knees, right…
Pritchard: How is he still fighting them off?
Off-camera: Noboby knows why. He speaks Russian. Nobody knows why. No rhyme or reason.
Pritchard: Prime footage for my home videos.
Pritchard: He's unconscious…I heard him say Code Red.
Pritchard: I've only got three minutes of footage, three minutes of memory, three minutes of memory left.
Following Dziekanski's final encounter
TRANSLATION BY CYNTHIA YOO AND RAFAL GERSZAK
Globe and Mail Update
November 15, 2007 at 10:05 PM EST
Vancouver — Voice off camera: Computer's on?
Voice off camera: What language do you speak?
Muffled responses, comments off camera.
Voice off camera: Just look at his face!
Voice off camera: There's 300 people coming in...coming in.
Muffled comments off camera.
Voice off camera: He did it. He almost threw the chair through the window to get out. Look at it. Look...
Muffled voices talk excitedly off camera.
Mr. Dziekanski paces the whole length of the secure arrivals area, walking back to the entrance doors.
Dziekanski: Breathing deeply. I'm going to break this desk. Is this going to continue?
Muffled voices off camera.
Voice off camera: Is there anybody at the door?
Voice off camera: I can't believe he's ... out!
Voice off camera: Nobody's here...from security.
Muffled voices off camera.
Voice off camera: Just five minutes before ...comes down with 300 people on it...
Dziekanski: Holding and waving a small wooden fold-up stool at the entrance door, speaking in Polish. I'm going to break windows. I'm going to break this window here.
Voice off camera: ...something's wrong with him.
Voice off camera: ... is Russian. He speaks Russian.
Voice off camera: Is that what he's speaking? I don't even know what he's speaking.
Voice off camera: What language do you speak?
Voice off camera: He doesn't speak English...
Voice off camera: Russian? Russian?
Muffled voices off camera.
Voice off camera: Ruskian? Nope.
Dziekanski: Mr. Dziekanski holds and waves a small wooden fold-up stool in the entrance doors. I will not allow them.
Voice off camera: There's nothing wrong! There's nothing wrong...it's okay.
Voice off camera: We need a Russian interpreter. We need someone to open the arrivals area...
Dziekanski: Still holding the stool in the entrance doors, I'm going to report on you and the rest of them.
Voice off camera: Calm down.
Dziekanski: Fine, fine. Takes a breath. We'll see.
Woman walks over to Mr. Dziekanski, motioning to him, holding out her hand.
Woman: Calm down. She motions to him, holding out her hand in order to communicate with him.
Dziekanski: Still holding stool, pacing in the entrance doors,. Get away. Get away.
Muffled voices off camera.
Dziekanski: Swears.
Muffled voices off camera.
Woman : Motioning to Mr. Dziekanski. Calm down please.
Woman tries to communicate through the clear glass partition, with Mr. Dzienkanski who has gone into the arrivals area.
Dziekanski: (Inaudible)
Woman: ....Excuse me...I know I know...
Mr. Dziekanski and the woman speak through the partition, nodding and motioning.
Woman walks back away from partition.
Muffled voices off camera.
Voice off camera: Look! He's got a computer...
Mr. Dziekanski throws some laptop or computer on to the glass partition.
Voice off camera: Whoa.
Voice off camera: Right in front of the cops too.
Voice off camera: Jesus Christ.
Mr. Dziekanski holds up an electric equipment and attempts to throw it.
Voices off camera: No no no.
Mr. Dziekanski puts down the equipment rather than throwing it.
Two airport security officer come to the entrance doors and Mr. Dziekanski comes to the doors to meet them.
Voice off camera: He speaks Russian and nobody can help him...You need a Russian interpreter here to calm him down. Cathay's coming down in five minutes.
Voice off camera: ...Russian interpreter.
Voice off camera: ...Can you call Customs and tell them to stop it....
Voice off camera: He is so scared...just leave him.
Voice off camera: Why are the police not here? We called security, we called the police.
Voice off camera: Calm down, calm down please.
Camera turns to police.
Dziekanski: Mr. Dziekanski screams. Police! Police!
Police speaks to him and points. They motion him to inside and they point to a spot on the ground and they encircle him.
Dziekanski: What are you doing? An RCMP officer points at him. There's nothing here .
An RCMP officer shoots him with a Taser.
RCMP officer: Get down, get down!
Dziekanski: (Screams as he falls to the ground)
Police fire two more Taser blasts.
RCMP officer: Get a Taser.
RCMP officer: Put your hands up.
RCMP officer: Get him down, get him down!
Dziekanski continues to struggle, scream
Security guard: Operations…(unintelligible)
Dziekanski: Oh, no! It's pinching.
Four RCMP officers pin Mr. Dziekanski as they restrain him.
Dziekanski: Bandit!
Pritchard: Jesus.
RCMP officer: Get his knees, right…
Pritchard: How is he still fighting them off?
Off-camera: Noboby knows why. He speaks Russian. Nobody knows why. No rhyme or reason.
Pritchard: Prime footage for my home videos.
Pritchard: He's unconscious…I heard him say Code Red.
Pritchard: I've only got three minutes of footage, three minutes of memory, three minutes of memory left.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
Unfortunately I feel too many people are missing the forest for the trees.
There are so many factors that led up to this, as stated previously by some posters. Everyone played a part in this man's death, whether they want to admit it or not. In fact, in that short 9 minute video, the only person I see trying to help was the woman who approached Dziekanski and tried to calm him down.
Who's to blame?
Airport security, for not trying sooner to get a translator (does it really take 10 hrs?). Even handing the man a bottle of water might have calmed him.
Every bystander who stood by and did nothing, especially those who wondered why nothing was being done. This includes the guy with the camera. Really, is it that hard to try and talk to someone like the one lady did?
Mr Dzielanski himself. For whatever reason, he was agitated. If it was because of some problem beyond his control (ie, a mental health issue) than I remove this accusation.
Finally, there is probably some blame that can be attributed to the RCMP, but given that there is still an investigation pending on their behaviour, and much too much criticism being thrown their way, I will leave that one alone.
There are so many factors that led up to this, as stated previously by some posters. Everyone played a part in this man's death, whether they want to admit it or not. In fact, in that short 9 minute video, the only person I see trying to help was the woman who approached Dziekanski and tried to calm him down.
Who's to blame?
Airport security, for not trying sooner to get a translator (does it really take 10 hrs?). Even handing the man a bottle of water might have calmed him.
Every bystander who stood by and did nothing, especially those who wondered why nothing was being done. This includes the guy with the camera. Really, is it that hard to try and talk to someone like the one lady did?
Mr Dzielanski himself. For whatever reason, he was agitated. If it was because of some problem beyond his control (ie, a mental health issue) than I remove this accusation.
Finally, there is probably some blame that can be attributed to the RCMP, but given that there is still an investigation pending on their behaviour, and much too much criticism being thrown their way, I will leave that one alone.
zipperhead_cop+100 Thank you, you hit the nail on the head!
I have purposely stayed out of this discussion as I know the members involved and during my early service I worked at YVR for a year and dealt with similar types of incidents.
The comments by Mr. Pritchard in the transcript are quite telling...I wonder how many people think of him as "the good guy" now as opposed to the parasite just trying to make a buck off a death in custody. Anyway he's the one that's gotta live with himself!
Noneck
I have purposely stayed out of this discussion as I know the members involved and during my early service I worked at YVR for a year and dealt with similar types of incidents.
The comments by Mr. Pritchard in the transcript are quite telling...I wonder how many people think of him as "the good guy" now as opposed to the parasite just trying to make a buck off a death in custody. Anyway he's the one that's gotta live with himself!
Noneck
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
noneck said:
Ah yes shoot the messanger that's brilliant! I don't think he realized the guy was dead at the point where he said he had footage for his home archive....he probably thought they would cart him off to jail and he would have and interesting incident on tape.
A public inquiry has now rightly been called and hopefully all will come to light especially the protocols whereby anyone of us may be tasered.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071119/vcr_tasers_071119/20071119?hub=TopStories
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IN HOC SIGNO said:
You don't need one. The answer is easy. Act like you are going to assault an officer. If they have a taser, you can get tased. Simple, n'est pas?
IN HOC SIGNO said:
From that link:
Gee, what a shock that Gearbox Jack is chiming off on an issue that he knows nothing about, but still feels entitled to opine on. This isn't a friggin' training issue.
And here is a sentiment that most officers will echo:
Tasing is physically debilitating while the current is on. Full stop. It does not cause physical damage.
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Respectfully ZIP this isn't just about the LEOs reponse. The Inquiry will also look into why nobody helped this guy when he was standing beside an International arrivals baggage carousel for 6 and half hours and no one asked him if he needed assistance. It will find out why the Welcome Wagon folks out front didn't assist his mother in connecting with him inside the secure area....and hopefully the lessons learned will prevent another incident like this from happening. How did the Border agency folks handle him etc....he did clear customs so someone talked to him.
I suspect the fact that a flight full of passengers about to arrive on Cathay Pacific also provided a degree of urgency in getting this resolved quickly from security's point of view. The results of the Coroner's report will also be important to the whole issue.
The bottom line for me is that this is an open and democratic society and we are all entitled to know exactly what happened in that arrival lounge that night not just the press realease of any particular agency. We can't just write this off as a guy who acted weird, got tased, died...oh well. I have no doubt that the LEOs followed their protocols....but why did it get to this point when the guy arrived 10 hours earlier??
I suspect the fact that a flight full of passengers about to arrive on Cathay Pacific also provided a degree of urgency in getting this resolved quickly from security's point of view. The results of the Coroner's report will also be important to the whole issue.
The bottom line for me is that this is an open and democratic society and we are all entitled to know exactly what happened in that arrival lounge that night not just the press realease of any particular agency. We can't just write this off as a guy who acted weird, got tased, died...oh well. I have no doubt that the LEOs followed their protocols....but why did it get to this point when the guy arrived 10 hours earlier??
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Seems to me that hundreds of thousands of people every day somehow manage to conduct themselves from the luggage pickup to outside of the secured area. Maybe the airport should have noticed him, but it seems that once your luggage pukes out of the carousel, they are done with you. People sit around in airports for all kinds of reasons. This has worked for decades. So this guy flips out, and what? People have to have time limits to get out of the airport? Everyone gets a tracking collar to make sure they toddle along at a reasonable pace?
Plus, he was not being detained. You can clearly see in the video that when he approaches the one set of doors, they are set to open automatically. He could leave any time he wanted.
But then this guy has some sort of brain dump, and sits there and works himself into a lather. If he has some sort of mental health issue, maybe he should have had someone with him on the plane. If his mom knew he had issues, why didn't she tell some one, instead of just leaving the airport without so much as checking the manifest to see if her son was on the plane?
It is unfortunate that this man died. But this is an anomaly.
Plus, he was not being detained. You can clearly see in the video that when he approaches the one set of doors, they are set to open automatically. He could leave any time he wanted.
But then this guy has some sort of brain dump, and sits there and works himself into a lather. If he has some sort of mental health issue, maybe he should have had someone with him on the plane. If his mom knew he had issues, why didn't she tell some one, instead of just leaving the airport without so much as checking the manifest to see if her son was on the plane?
It is unfortunate that this man died. But this is an anomaly.
Just out of curiosity, is there a protocol dealing with LEOs administering first aid to a person they've just put in custody? Judgment call? Wait until paramedics arrive?
I can see how it could be risky to resuscitate someone you've just had to Tase to subdue, but if the LEO knows there's no pulse, and knows medical assistance is more than four minutes away...
I can see how it could be risky to resuscitate someone you've just had to Tase to subdue, but if the LEO knows there's no pulse, and knows medical assistance is more than four minutes away...
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