TASER OPINIONS?

[zipperhead_cop]

If someone was VSA, you would probably do CPR.  However, there is nothing in that video that suggests that the subject was not breathing or didn't have a pulse.  You don't do CPR on a beating heart. 
And it is unlikely that it would have helped.  CPR has an effective rate of something around 5%, and with excited delirium, the body is pretty much too tired to live. 

 

[J.J]

I don't think in all the time I have been a member of this forum have I been so angry and amazed at the hypocrisy of some members here. I am a LEO, I am also a professional full time Use of Force Trainer. I have also 20+ years in the Reserves, so I have a bit of knowledge in both worlds. I would never question what a soldier had done in the heat of battle. I would never question why a soldier would shoot a civilian approaching a convoy. I would assume, through the soldiers training, they made the correct decision. I know there will be an investigation and the truth will come out. If the soldier did something wrong, deal with it. I would not say there are systematic problems with training because 1 person made a mistake or even 2 or 3 did. Do not judge until all the info is out, as you would not judge a soldier who shot a civilian approaching a convoy.
Like Noneck I have intimate knowledge of this case and I have to be careful on what I say.

IMO tasers should be removed from the arsenals of the various law enfocement  departments . i belive they are a lazy persons way out . shoot em and let the officers swarm this person . now that the way its being used is falling under suspicion maybe a rethink is required.with OC they generaly have to think about what they are doing not so with a Taser.

This may be a surprise to you, but on the IM/IM (the RCMP use of force module), the taser is an intermediate device, equal to OC. On that, OC is not "karate in a can". It will not automatically disable you, it has an average 3-5 second delay before it takes effect. It does not effect everyone the same way. Some people it is has little or seemingly no effect on. Deploying OC in an airport environment is frowned upon, as the air is recycled and if the liquid is brought into the ventilation it can affect many others. Then people, like yourself, will complain because it was used indoors and why wasn't something else used. When a person is exhibiting behaviours like Mr. Dziekanski it is not generally a smart move to try empty hand hard (strikes) or empty hand soft (joint manipulation/pain compliance) techniques, as it may cause injury to the subject or the member may get injured. If the subject is suffering from the condition known as excited delirium, as Zipperhead alluded to, OC or strikes etc will not work. Little is known about this condition.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3804/is_200307/ai_n9301741
Here is excerpt from this article
The features of this extreme state, referred to as "excited delirium," include agitation, excitability, paranoia, aggression, great strength, and numbness to pain. When confronted or frightened, these delirious individuals can become oppositional, defiant, angry, paranoid, and aggressive.

If 4 healthy, young and well trained officers can't subdue a middle aged man then perhaps Regina should be disbanded.  Today.

You seem to be bitter because you were not accepted into depot or just an all around hater of the LEO. I had a an onslaught planned out on what to say to you, but with people like you common sense is a foreign concept. I will just ignore your rantings as coming from a bitter disillusioned wanna be.

.. and we hate it when non-soldiers pick apart our actions. Priceless.

+1 again

I have no doubt that this will be swept under the carpet as usual; as for the 4 charges of murder, up to 3 (that's three) tasers are alleged to have been fired.  Permission was asked and granted to use the taser and this will dilute the responsiblity further.  Being a member of the military I was unfairly called a 'baby killer'.  The RCMP can now be called murderers.

The video speaks for itself.

See my above comments directed to your rantings

Mr Dziekanski demonstrated a willingness to violently use what he had to hand. Het met the RCMP criteria for being combative. The Mounties made the call and acted. To judge them after the fact with knowledge that they wouldn't possibly have at the time, is wrong on many levels. It's also wrong to minimize the actions of the subject prior to his death and a lot of reporters are doing just that.

+1

Who's to blame?
Airport security, for not trying sooner to get a translator (does it really take 10 hrs?).  Even handing the man a bottle of water might have calmed him.

VIA is the only airport in Canada with a fulltime staff of translators. The number off the top of my head is 24 languages are available for translation 24/7. I am unsure if Mr Dziekanski was released from Immigration as he was attempting entry into Canada. For normal circumstances a Landed Immigrant takes time to process, but if there are issues that come to light, there can be a lengthy delay.

Respectfully ZIP this isn't just about the LEOs reponse. The Inquiry will also look into why nobody helped this guy when he was standing beside an International arrivals baggage carousel for 6 and half hours and no one asked him if he needed assistance. It will find out why the Welcome Wagon folks out front didn't assist his mother in connecting with him inside the secure area....and hopefully the lessons learned will prevent another incident like this from happening. How did the Border agency folks handle him etc....he did clear customs so someone talked to him.

I suspect the fact that a flight full of passengers about to arrive on Cathay Pacific also provided a degree of urgency in geting this resolved quickly from security's point of view. The results of the Coroner's report will also be important to the whole issue.

The bottom line for me is that this is an open and democratic society and we are all entitled to know exactly what happened in that arrival lounge that night not just the press realease of any particular agency. We can't just write this off as a guy who acted weird, got tased, died...oh well. I have no doubt that the LEOs followed their protocols....but why did it get to this point when the guy arrived 10 hours earlier??

How did he get from his home to the airport? Did someone hold his hand to cross the street? He is an adult male, he can take care of himself. Everytime I am in the airport I see people that look like they are living there. VIA is this country's 2nd largest airport, people spend days in there. People have to be accountable for their own actions or in actions.

 

[Osotogari]

Looks like everything that could have gone wrong did, and what happened when the RCMP were called into clean up someone else's mess is the tragic result.

Hopefully this government won't try to hang them out to dry like the Libs did after APEC

 

[Thompson_JM]

Having watched the full 10 minute video, there is ALOT (read: SH!TLOADS) that the media is leaving out of this....

now that ive seen the whole thing, yeah, it looks like the cops were doing what they were supposed to be doing.... Bringing order to chaos, containing a suspect who appears to not be in a rational state of mind, protecting themselves and those around them in the airport.

Im not blaming the RCMP for this one, one bit. hell... that mealworm Prichard said it himself at Time mark 8:12 "he's still fighting them off" after the taser had been deployed...

This looks more to me like the Soft handed left wing Hippie bullsh!t "oooh oooh oooh the police are bad and hurting someone" typical response i see whenever a use of force is captured on video.

The media show 15-30 seconds of this tape and all of a sudden we are supposed to make a judgement on it?? give me a break.

as far as Im concerned the officers on scene did their job. its way too easy to be an armchair quaterback...

most of the #$%#Pumps talking big about this, dont even have the balls to go into a situation like that in the first place.... (and yes if i sound mad its because I got into an argument with my left minded father tonight about this exact subject... and like a typical left winger, he refuses to listen to annoying little things like Fact or proffessional opinion because that just gets in the way of their ideal happy little world... those people contradict themselves so often its nauseating...)

ugh... Rant-Off...

BZ to the Coppers on the scene.

to Zip, Noneck, and the rest of the LEO's on this board. My Apologies for doubting you guys. 

 

[zipperhead_cop]

to Zip, Noneck, and the rest of the LEO's on this board. My Apologies for doubting you guys. 

No worries, bro.  At least you are open to information. 

 

[rregtc-etf]

Seven years ago (2000) in Toronto a man named Otto Vass died after physical struggle with four police officers.  The Toronto officer's were charged with manslaughter and later acquitted by a jury.  During the trial, it was shown that the man died of over exertion and drugs.  Seemingly healthy people dropping dead in their 40's is not unheard of.  I would guess that a person's health would also be a factor in situations like this. 

 

[daftandbarmy]

Coverage in the Saskatoon Star-Phoenix:

http://www.canada.com/saskatoonstarphoenix/news/third_page/story.html?id=cb385943-2aaa-41cc-bdd4-af58082eb839

Man's lack of co-operation necessitated force
Les MacPherson, The StarPhoenix
Published: Saturday, November 17, 2007

We have all by now seen the disturbing video of the hapless Polish immigrant screaming, writhing and dying after RCMP officers used a Taser on him at the Vancouver airport. Now almost everyone in the country is piling on police for using excessive force. Excuse me for not joining in.

What people seem not to realize is that there is no way to subdue a violent, irrational and potentially dangerous suspect that isn't disturbing. What, exactly, would these armchair critics have had the police do?

Talk to the guy?

They tried. Police when they approached the man were as non-threatening as they could be. It didn't work. The suspect, after storming around the airport, smashing up furniture and alarming everyone around him, was now ignoring police instructions. Instead of co-operating, as any reasonable person would have and should have done, he threw up his hands, turned around and walked away. Were police supposed to let him go? Were they to let him storm around some more until he felt like obeying them?

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

No worries, bro.  At least you are open to information.   

I think most reasonable people are open to more information, that's why the inquiry is a good thing. Perhaps it will even convince a few people that think they can get away with bad behaviour that when police tell you to put your hands on the counter and cease and desist it's time to comply with the lawful request.

I take your points that lots of other people make it through YVR and our other major gateways every day without incident and agree whole heartedly with your opinion that this guy was indulging in unacceptable behaviour.

I must say that airports are not my favorite place. I can remember one night in Pearson when Air Canada was in disarray because they had just taken over Canadian Airlines
and their flights were all screwed up there were a lot of people in the departure lounge that night who were ready to wring somone's neck. There was a particularily rude and officious Ground Agent who would have been well employed in the Third Reich's concentration camp system that many people were ready to have a go at that night because of her insensitivity to what was going on around her. I decided to get away from the cattle pen and have a few wets in the bar (a default setting learned from time in the Navy ha  ha) till the whole thing settled down. When I came back Air Canada had wisely removed her from the line of fire and were trying to address the situation.
My point is that something went wrong that night for this guy and we need to figure it out so that the system works properly and people don't end up doing the funky chicken on the floor of the Arrivals lounge.....it's bad for business.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

My point is that something went wrong that night for this guy and we need to figure it out so that the system works properly and people don't end up doing the funky chicken on the floor of the Arrivals lounge.....it's bad for business.

ACT VIOLENT = GET DEALT WITH

I think that system works pretty well.  Not a whole lot of tweaking needed. 

People spin out.  It happens.  The police get called.  That is also what happens.  Everyone else stands around.  That always happens.  But that is what we get paid the big bucks for.  We are expected to show up at these sort of donkey shows and make them better.  Subject is being violent and irrational?  Take him down. 
Especially considering how many tragedies the RCMP have suffered in the last year or so, I think those guys should have gotten a big thank you for how much restraint they used, not getting jerked over just because some asshat wanted to video a crazy guy getting taken down. 

 

[IrishCanuck]

It's pretty simple... don't brandish a table at an innocent civilian.. don't pick up a stapler as a weapon of oppurtunity when the police are talking to you, and you won't have an intermediary device or worse used on you.

I'm so tired of hearing the bullshit about 4 officers gang tackling him.

So just rush him and hope for the best?
Hope you don't take a heavy blunt object shot to the temple? Or a staple to the eye?
Hope he doesn't have a concealed shiv or other weapon he pulls on you once you are too close to get away?
Hope you can get him down and controlled (which took all 4 of them after the table) before he can get your tools off your belt, god forbid him getting a hold of your sidearm.

Too much hoping for me.

Or... use a non-lethal intermediary device to effect control safely for both all the officers involved and the public?

The fact is, the bleeding heart ivory tower left wingers would complain no matter what had happened if it resulted in a death. Excited delirium or not.

They offer now why they didnt use OC, or baton strikes.

If they would have used OC and the subject had an allergic reaction, or still died of positional asphyxia and excited delirium, they would have asked why not use the taser?

If they would have used baton strikes.. oh jeez I can just imagine the uproar, Rodney King all over again.  :

The officers will be cleared in this case, as their actions fall completely within the use of force continuum, and the incident intervention model. The only way they will be hung out to dry is if they some how cannot articulate how they felt threatend by a man yelling brandishing a blunt weapon.

 

[observor 69]

  If his mom knew he had issues, why didn't she tell some one, instead of just leaving the airport without so much as checking the manifest to see if her son was on the plane? 
It is unfortunate that this man died.  But this is an anomaly. 

She asked at one info Desk about her sons whereabouts and was told they had nothing on him. Her second inquiry later at another info desk was we have no info and "You should go home." So she went home. How much of a s@@t storm must one raise to get accurate info in an airport?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

..and your first hand source is?

 

[observor 69]

Outside, in the public area, his mother spent nearly six hours pacing the corridors and, in broken English, asking airport officials for help in locating her son.

Mr. Kosteckyj said she visited one booth in international arrivals "at least three to four times and conveyed to them that she was concerned about her son being in the area and she wanted to get a message to him and how could she do that? They wrote her name down and said that they would make inquiries."

At about 10 p.m., she was told he wasn't there. She made the long drive home, only to find a phone message waiting, saying her son had been found.

"She called back to immigration when she got in, which would have been around 2 a.m., and spoke to someone there and was advised that her son was somewhere in the area and was fine. And she advised, you know, 'Please take care of him because he can't speak English and I'll get there as soon as I can.' And of course he had died, been killed really, some time on or about 1 or 1:30," Mr. Kosteckyj said. 
http://tinyurl.com/2h42sg

Everything went wrong. His mother, Zofia Cisowski, had told him to wait for her in the baggage area, forgetting it is a secure area. When she realized her mistake, she begged to be let in. She was refused and nobody went to look for her son.

Some six hours later, Cisowski, who'd driven the 366 kilometres from Kamloops to meet her only son, was told he wasn't there. She was told to go home.

Sadly, not long after, Dziekanski, who'd been sitting in the secured area about 100 metres away from his mother, finally cleared customs.

His mother, understandably distraught, was already on her way back to Kamloops.
http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Columnists/Cockburn_Lyn/2007/11/16/4659774.html

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

If the LEOs did all according to Hoyle then there's no problem....the Inquiry will establish that. The Police, the Customs officials, the Airport authority are not above having questions asked about how they conducted themselves. A man died. 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Baden Guy,
So her version, through her lawyer, is gospel?.........................aww, for craps sake.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

http://tinyurl.com/2h42sg

Info from the lawyer, who would never have an agenda  :

http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Columnists/Cockburn_Lyn/2007/11/16/4659774.html

An unbelievably inflammatory and inaccurate editorial piece. 

Did you just need so badly to maintain your status as "the guy who disagrees with everything" that this is the best you could come up with?  Did you even watch the video, or are you just trying to troll up responses per usual? 

Google news search results:

Results 1 - 10 of about 990 for Robert Dziekanski.

Results 1 - 10 of about 172 for Const Douglas Scott.
Thus, the media can kiss my pale Scottish ass.   :-*

 

[Thompson_JM]

Im willing to put ALOT more fault towards the Airport and the mouth breathers working the desks there... then I will at the RCMP.

it still looks like someone %##$ the bed here, but it wasnt the mounties... they did their job the way they were supposed to.

for all its worth, maybe mom didnt try hard enough to find her son? lets face it. weve all seen people who will take 10 minutes to muster up the guts to ask someone something, and then if they dont get the right answer they just give up.... perhaps she gave up too early?

a crazy theory maybe? no crazier then the one some idiots are spouting off about the RCMP being murderers.....

oohhh wait.. it doesnt tie in with the left wing agenda though... so its got to be wrong.... at least in the eyes of the media, and most of canadas mouth breathing citizens....

sigh... these are the people weve sworn to protect??

 

[Timmy!]

+1 for Tommy and Zip.

I prey to God these Mounties do not get charged for doing their jobs. Media loves to leave out tons of parts to make the truth semi-false/false.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Here's a guy that they used all their devices on; baton, spray and taser and he still took 4 of them to control him....wow....i don't envy them this job that's for sure.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071120/taser_chilliwack_071120/20071120?hub=TopStories

 

[observor 69]

Z C "Did you just need so badly to maintain your status as "the guy who disagrees with everything" that this is the best you could come up with?  Did you even watch the video, or are you just trying to troll up responses per usual? "

Yes I watched the video. If  you checked in this thread you would see I also provided the transcript of the translation from the Globe and Mail. I do not post to be "disagreeable." I post the thoughts of media I respect such as the Globe and Mail and the New York Times because I think it is valuable to hear their opinions.

Ref the Vancouver airport authorities, from the first time I heard of this incident my thinking has been these people let down the mother and her son. They were both in the airport and in spite of the mothers repeated inquires for information she could not get together with her son.
I live near Pearson International airport and for one reason or another I hear similar stories of anger and confusion. Unfortunately I suspect this is a fairly common event in many of the worlds major airports.