TASER OPINIONS?
- Thread starter pbi
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axeman said:
Uh... yeah BC, we're number #1? With 230?
This is mind-boggling. With only about 10% of the Canadian population, BC has 40% of incidents?
Same with Saskatchewan, hell, even NWT, Yukon and Nunavut are surprising when comparing number of incidents versus population base. Is the population in Yukon so violent that 11 people got tasered?
Why so few in Ontario when almost a third of Canada's population lives there? Does that suggest everyone in Ontario gets along better than the rest of the country, or different training and/or policies on the use of tasers than the rest of the country? And its a shock to hear 'zero' in Quebec.
Any suggestions from resident LEOs as to why the numbers are the way they are? (Other than Western focus of RCMP police branches).
Are there statisitcs for provincial forces for Ontario and Quebec available?
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The reason for the low stats in Ontario & Quebec is that the RCMP do not do any contract policing in the these provinces. Only Federal legislation like drugs, Customs/Excise, Immigration/Passport etc. We have our provincial/muni forces and their stats I would hazard a guess would be higher than the RCMP.
and yes Ontario gets along better with others ;D
It helps to read everything
and yes Ontario gets along better with others ;D
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Greymatters said:
Yes it does help... I thought it was implied from this line, so I'll rephrase it.
"Are there statistics for provincial forces in Ontario and Quebec available which be in supplement to the statistics already provided by the RCMP?"
Thanks, thought they did some, didnt know they did not do any contract policing there at all.
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Greymatters said:
Using the search terms "TASER Statistics Toronto" in google I found this report http://www.taser.com/research/statistics/Documents/Toronto%20Annual%20TASER%20ECD%202006%20Report%2002%2018%2007.pdf on Toronto's stats for TASER use. Its pretty detailed. Presently I don't think the Ontario Ministry of Community Safety publishes online stats of taser use in the province, altough they do compile stats. You would probably need to file a FOI request to see the stats.
GreyMatters- The reason that the stats are so high for BC in this RCMP report is that fully 1/3 of the RCMP's uniformed strength is in BC, with the majority of that being posted in the LMD. LMD Detachmnets were also very quick to realize the effectiveness of the CEW and as a result have purchased and equipped the LMD Dets with a higher percentage of CEW's for roadable members. E Div also has quite a few National Use of Force Experts ( One of whom , a good friend) has been all over the media explaining the IMIM and the CEW. Hope that puts it in perspective for you....but then again stats are merely stats and they can be manipulated to show whatever you want!
Noneck
Noneck
Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
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Bruce Monkhouse said:
He has the right but how professional does it make us look?
Media could put a dirty spin on it.
"Afghan vet feels majority of Canadian citizens are bla bla".
I kinda feel the "US vs THEM" is an attitude we don't want in the CF, especially considering the support were getting from Canadian citizens.
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Flawed Design said:
Exactly my point Flawed Design. Generally when police and military begin to think of those they serve as "window licking mouth breathers" or "sh!tbirds" or "scrots" they begin to treat everyone as an idiot or worse as a criminal. I can remember the first 10 years of my brother in laws career as an OPP officer when he referred to the general public in such terms all the time....it tainted his view and his attitude when he dealt with people...he didn't sound like a professional and most of the time he was not a pleasant person to listen to when he spoke. After he gained some maturity and life experience in dealing with people he rose to the rank of Staff Sergeant and retired as the head of large detachment. He had to deal daily with the civilian authorities of the town and work with a lot of agencies in order to run his detachment and protect the town.
It's OK to differ in opinions, that was my whole point, but when you write off those who disagree with you as "window licking mouth breathers" (and he categorized the majority of the population as that) then you have assumed a superiority that is undeserved. If he's a member of the Forces he did take an oath to protect the people of this country and if he thinks they are all a bunch of idiots why does he bother?
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how ever the term Proffesional Crime comes to mind with all this back and forthing
1. A professional who expressly contracts to accomplish or avoid a specific result will, even in the absence of negligence, be liable for breach of contract if he or she fails to comply
Fraud
A professional may be held liable for the tort of fraud if the elements of that cause of action are present. These elements are as follows:
1. the professional misrepresented a material fact;
2. the professional knew that it was false, did not know whether it was true or false, or under the circumstances, should have known that it was false;
3. the professional made it with intent to induce the client to rely on its truth;
4. the client was injured when acting in justifiable reliance thereon.
5. Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress
A person who deliberately or recklessly inflicts severe emotional or mental suffering on another by means of outrageous conduct will be liable in tort for intentional infliction of emotional distress. ''Outrageous conduct'' is that which is so extreme in degree that it is beyond the bounds of decency, is regarded as atrocious, and is utterly intolerable in a civilized community.
1. A duty on the part of the professional to use the degree of care that a reasonably careful member of the profession would use under like circumstances.
2. A breach of that duty.
3. Actual loss or damage to the plaintiff.
4. A proximate causal connection between the professional's negligence and the resulting injury.
Existence of Duty of Care
The existence of a legal duty on the part of a defendant to perform services in accordance with professional standards is an essential element of a professional negligence action. Ordinarily, an undertaking to provide professional services gives rise to a legal duty to perform those services in compliance with a particular standard of care. That is, unless a specific standard is mandated by statute, a person who performs professional services must exercise that degree of knowledge, skill, and care usually possessed and exercised by other members of the profession under similar circumstances. The existence and scope of a professional's duty of care depends on two essential factors:
1. whether the defendant expressly or impliedly agreed to render professional services; and
2. whether the agreement or law under which a duty of care arises precludes the imposition of or limits that duty.
Limitations on Scope of Duty
A professional's duty of care is circumscribed by the contract that creates the duty, by the statute that imposes it, and by the range of the expertise and services that, by custom and practice in the business community, are ordinarily expected of persons who provide similar professional services
Duty to Third Persons Existence of Duty
Under certain circumstances, Florida courts have held that professionals owe a duty of care to third parties who are neither clients nor patients but are nevertheless affected by the conduct of the professional.
Factors in Determination of Existence of Duty
In determining whether a duty of care is owed to a third party who is neither a party to, nor a third-party beneficiary of, nor a person in privity with, a contract with a professional, the courts have balanced the following considerations:
2. The extent to which the transaction was intended to affect the plaintiff.
3. The forseeability of harm to the plaintiff.
4. The degree of certainty that the plaintiff suffered the injury.
5. The closeness of the connection between the defendant's conduct and the injury.
6. The moral blame attached to the defendant's conduct.
7. The policy of preventing future harm. These factors are not exclusive; a court may examine other relevant factors that arise in a particular case.
8. Breach of Fiduciary Duty
Professionals may be held accountable in negligence for breach of a fiduciary duty. This standard of care is also higher than that for ordinary negligence; it requires the professional to act with honesty, candor, and fairness in dealing with clients.
9. The general rule is that a professional who stands in a fiduciary relationship to a client is under a duty to make a full disclosure of all material facts to that person. Professionals who have been held to be fiduciaries include real estate brokers, attorneys, and physicians.
10. Violation of Statute, Regulation, or Ordinance
The violation of a statute, regulation, or ordinance that establishes a duty of care to protect a particular class of persons from a particular injury or type of injury is negligence per se; that is, proof of the violation demonstrates a negligent breach of the duty of care imposed
1. A professional who expressly contracts to accomplish or avoid a specific result will, even in the absence of negligence, be liable for breach of contract if he or she fails to comply
Fraud
A professional may be held liable for the tort of fraud if the elements of that cause of action are present. These elements are as follows:
1. the professional misrepresented a material fact;
2. the professional knew that it was false, did not know whether it was true or false, or under the circumstances, should have known that it was false;
3. the professional made it with intent to induce the client to rely on its truth;
4. the client was injured when acting in justifiable reliance thereon.
5. Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress
A person who deliberately or recklessly inflicts severe emotional or mental suffering on another by means of outrageous conduct will be liable in tort for intentional infliction of emotional distress. ''Outrageous conduct'' is that which is so extreme in degree that it is beyond the bounds of decency, is regarded as atrocious, and is utterly intolerable in a civilized community.
1. A duty on the part of the professional to use the degree of care that a reasonably careful member of the profession would use under like circumstances.
2. A breach of that duty.
3. Actual loss or damage to the plaintiff.
4. A proximate causal connection between the professional's negligence and the resulting injury.
Existence of Duty of Care
The existence of a legal duty on the part of a defendant to perform services in accordance with professional standards is an essential element of a professional negligence action. Ordinarily, an undertaking to provide professional services gives rise to a legal duty to perform those services in compliance with a particular standard of care. That is, unless a specific standard is mandated by statute, a person who performs professional services must exercise that degree of knowledge, skill, and care usually possessed and exercised by other members of the profession under similar circumstances. The existence and scope of a professional's duty of care depends on two essential factors:
1. whether the defendant expressly or impliedly agreed to render professional services; and
2. whether the agreement or law under which a duty of care arises precludes the imposition of or limits that duty.
Limitations on Scope of Duty
A professional's duty of care is circumscribed by the contract that creates the duty, by the statute that imposes it, and by the range of the expertise and services that, by custom and practice in the business community, are ordinarily expected of persons who provide similar professional services
Duty to Third Persons Existence of Duty
Under certain circumstances, Florida courts have held that professionals owe a duty of care to third parties who are neither clients nor patients but are nevertheless affected by the conduct of the professional.
Factors in Determination of Existence of Duty
In determining whether a duty of care is owed to a third party who is neither a party to, nor a third-party beneficiary of, nor a person in privity with, a contract with a professional, the courts have balanced the following considerations:
2. The extent to which the transaction was intended to affect the plaintiff.
3. The forseeability of harm to the plaintiff.
4. The degree of certainty that the plaintiff suffered the injury.
5. The closeness of the connection between the defendant's conduct and the injury.
6. The moral blame attached to the defendant's conduct.
7. The policy of preventing future harm. These factors are not exclusive; a court may examine other relevant factors that arise in a particular case.
8. Breach of Fiduciary Duty
Professionals may be held accountable in negligence for breach of a fiduciary duty. This standard of care is also higher than that for ordinary negligence; it requires the professional to act with honesty, candor, and fairness in dealing with clients.
9. The general rule is that a professional who stands in a fiduciary relationship to a client is under a duty to make a full disclosure of all material facts to that person. Professionals who have been held to be fiduciaries include real estate brokers, attorneys, and physicians.
10. Violation of Statute, Regulation, or Ordinance
The violation of a statute, regulation, or ordinance that establishes a duty of care to protect a particular class of persons from a particular injury or type of injury is negligence per se; that is, proof of the violation demonstrates a negligent breach of the duty of care imposed
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Beg your pardon,..but, what is that cut and paste actually supposed to mean?
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Bruce Monkhouse said:
....and what relevance does it have to the discussion?
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Personally, I feel that the RCMP responding acted accordingly, they were called about a individual that was causing a scene, and at one point was throwing stuff around and ignored multiple people trying to help him and calm him down. Once they arrived, they probably told him to get down, but he started to walk away, which they couldn't allow, and was acting as if on drugs, so the best possible action was to taser him, ( paramedics are always called in afterwards). the other options were to pepper spray him, which usually affects the officers as well and takes time to evaporate, making the area unusable, or their asp batons, which can and will break bones or kill. The numerous cracks you hear in the video is just extra jolts being transmitted, after he continued to struggle, which is normal for individuals using drugs. What surprises me, is that people didn't say they beat him once handcuffed, when the officer was banging his asp baton on the ground near him to close it. This was just an unfortunate accident, nothing more, but their first concern is the safety of the officers and the public, not the suspect.
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noneck said:
As here, they can be taken the wrong way without clarification or context. Thanks for the feedback.
Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
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I do understand where the the frustration is coming from mind you.
I don't think people realize
a. How utterly hard it is being a cop and being placed in the positions they are placed and,
b. How many MORE lives would be lost, both officer and taser victim, if the police officer used his pistol instead.
I don't think people realize
a. How utterly hard it is being a cop and being placed in the positions they are placed and,
b. How many MORE lives would be lost, both officer and taser victim, if the police officer used his pistol instead.
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Flawed Design said:
+1 no argument here.....when it comes time to handle nasty belligerent people it's gotta be tough.
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Context: There is a Health Care workers dispute going on down here right now between the Gov't and the Union.
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I am going to have to agree with Flawed Design. Even in ordinary run of the mill policework such as issuing traffic tickets and the like, all they take is flak. Never mind if the situation was potentially life threatening to themselves or civilians, whatever action they take will be scrutinized with a 10 000X microscope and the legendary 20/20 hindsight.
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This is amazing that the family would apologise to the business where this incident took place yet ignore the fact that this guy caused a lot of problems for the RCMP. These guys used all the resources available and couldnt control this guy...in this case it looks like they had no other option than to use the taser.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071124/custody_death_071124/20071124?hub=TopStories
Man who was Tasered and batoned by police dies
This amateur photo shows Robert Knipstrom, 36, shortly after police allegedly beat and Tasered him.
CTV.ca News Staff
Updated: Sat. Nov. 24 2007 7:46 PM ET
A man who was hit with a baton, pepper-sprayed, and Tasered by police in Chilliwack, B.C., has died in hospital.
Thirty-six-year-old Robert Knipstrom died Saturday morning, four days after he was confronted by police at a rental store. During the confrontation, police brought out batons, pepper-spray, and an electric stun gun known as a Taser before subduing Knipstrom.
Police say the case is considered an "in-custody" death and an RCMP investigation has been launched along with the B.C. Coroner's Office.
RCMP Const. Lea-Anne Dunlop told CTV Newsnet on Saturday that "We're actually not sure if the Taser did make contact with the individual, but all of the levels of force and intervention options that were utilized are subject to the investigation at this time."
Witnesses told CTV British Columbia last week Knipstrom had been driving erratically before entering a Chilliwack business. He appeared to be extremely agitated and became even more so when he learned that police had been called.
When police arrived on the scene, "they encountered a very aggressive individual and the members, as we are informed at this point and time, were engaged in a very difficult struggle to control this person who was combative and aggressive," RCMP Assistant Commissioner Peter German told reporters shortly after Knipstrom was taken to hospital.
When none of the police tactics worked, the two Mounties who initially responded had to call for back-up.
According to police, Knipstrom was initially conscious and talking after he was taken into custody. But his condition worsened after he was taken to hospital.
The RCMP have said it is not clear what led to the man's medical condition.
On Saturday, the Mounties released a statement from Knipstrom's father Robert Thurston Knipstrom.
He asked for privacy, but the statement also said: "The family is shocked and saddened by the recent incident between our son and the Chilliwack RCMP. We apologize on behalf of our son to the staff of the EZ Rentals for any distress that was caused because of this incident."
The Mounties have been in the middle of a public firestorm since mid-October when a Polish immigrant died after another Taser incident with police.
A video recording of the incident released earlier this month showed that RCMP officers used a Taser on Robert Dziekanski within 30 seconds of confronting him at Vancouver International Airport on Oct. 14.
There are currently no less than seven provincial and federal public investigations under way regarding Taser use in Canada.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071124/custody_death_071124/20071124?hub=TopStories
Man who was Tasered and batoned by police dies
This amateur photo shows Robert Knipstrom, 36, shortly after police allegedly beat and Tasered him.
CTV.ca News Staff
Updated: Sat. Nov. 24 2007 7:46 PM ET
A man who was hit with a baton, pepper-sprayed, and Tasered by police in Chilliwack, B.C., has died in hospital.
Thirty-six-year-old Robert Knipstrom died Saturday morning, four days after he was confronted by police at a rental store. During the confrontation, police brought out batons, pepper-spray, and an electric stun gun known as a Taser before subduing Knipstrom.
Police say the case is considered an "in-custody" death and an RCMP investigation has been launched along with the B.C. Coroner's Office.
RCMP Const. Lea-Anne Dunlop told CTV Newsnet on Saturday that "We're actually not sure if the Taser did make contact with the individual, but all of the levels of force and intervention options that were utilized are subject to the investigation at this time."
Witnesses told CTV British Columbia last week Knipstrom had been driving erratically before entering a Chilliwack business. He appeared to be extremely agitated and became even more so when he learned that police had been called.
When police arrived on the scene, "they encountered a very aggressive individual and the members, as we are informed at this point and time, were engaged in a very difficult struggle to control this person who was combative and aggressive," RCMP Assistant Commissioner Peter German told reporters shortly after Knipstrom was taken to hospital.
When none of the police tactics worked, the two Mounties who initially responded had to call for back-up.
According to police, Knipstrom was initially conscious and talking after he was taken into custody. But his condition worsened after he was taken to hospital.
The RCMP have said it is not clear what led to the man's medical condition.
On Saturday, the Mounties released a statement from Knipstrom's father Robert Thurston Knipstrom.
He asked for privacy, but the statement also said: "The family is shocked and saddened by the recent incident between our son and the Chilliwack RCMP. We apologize on behalf of our son to the staff of the EZ Rentals for any distress that was caused because of this incident."
The Mounties have been in the middle of a public firestorm since mid-October when a Polish immigrant died after another Taser incident with police.
A video recording of the incident released earlier this month showed that RCMP officers used a Taser on Robert Dziekanski within 30 seconds of confronting him at Vancouver International Airport on Oct. 14.
There are currently no less than seven provincial and federal public investigations under way regarding Taser use in Canada.
- Reaction score
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Jeeze... I stop checking in for two or three days and this place goes right batty..... never thought I could have this sort of effect on anyone! ;D
Yes. That is exactly where it is comming from.
Do I think the General public is stupid?
as individuals, No.
as a collective... yeah... i kinda do...
I notice more and more often, that there is this tendancy to just Dogpile like mad onto whatever the popular opinion is out there, and that it seems to be that all these people with NO training, and NO experiance are all of a sudden Experts...... (who here hasnt used the term "Sheeple" before?)
Im not even going to get into the blind ignorance people have when it comes to the media... "but why would the news lie????" sheesh....
im no cop. But ive spent some time working in the feild though. downtown toronto where things can go from ok, to bat-@#$@ in a matter of seconds... and i didnt have a firearm, or even intermediate weapons to use....
ive just been lucky that the arrests i had to make were compliant.... and didnt really fight back... (well until after i had the one guy in cuffs... then all of a sudden he turned into a big man, and started spouting off.... etc...) but whatever... Did I start hitting him at that point? no... I let him spit all over the floor and all that, because as much as I wanted to thump him one, Im not going to attack someone who is already restrained for no reason... That is called Assault. its that fine line that law and security professionals dont cross... you use the minimum force.... sometimes all it takes is a firm conversation, other times it takes a firearm.. or anything in between...
and speaking as someone who has been on the pointing, and being pointed at end of firearm usage... sometimes you have act or react very quickly or else its gonna be too late.You have to think on your feet, thats for sure.
Yes, and i will continue to serve as per, but I still have the right, to voice my opinion as well.... if CTV wants to run a story that some Afghan Vet is cheesed off and angry on an online message board then whoop de doo.. they can go run with that for all I care. Just because I wear the uniform, doesnt mean I forfit my right to get PO-ed when the public acts stupid. it just means I have to have the knowledge to know when to speak and when to keep my yap shut....
online? i think im ok... standing in CF's in front of a CBC news crew? not a smart move obviously... Thankfully I know the difference... which brings me to the next one...
Its because alot of the people Cops deal with are D!ckheads..... do i think that all of Canada is this way? No... do I or will I treat them all this way? No... once again, I can differentiate.... I get pissed off when people are ignorant of facts. and when said facts are presented, they choose to continue to Ignore them, in favor of ANYTHING that will support their veiwpoint no matter how back assward or out to lunch it may be....
Im accually a pretty liberal minded Conservative... (yes they do exist....) I try to keep an open mind, and willingly play devils advocate just so I can see the other perspective, or the story behind the story......
And why do I continue to Serve? because although from time to time, the idiots of the world Piss me off, I do know there are alot of good people out there.... and theyre the ones worth fighting for.... but that doesnt mean I wont get cheesed off at society from time to time, when they decide to collectively turn their backs on those who are sworn to protect them..... for no reason other a slightly one sided video, and a bias media report.
Have we all forgotten Somalia? All of us grouped into one big racist hatefull group. because of the Actions of very few individuals....
It doesnt take alot for the Sheeple to change their mind.....
and it wasnt that long ago that WE were on the bottom of that Dogpile.
but thats just my .02
Flawed Design said:
Yes. That is exactly where it is comming from.
Do I think the General public is stupid?
as individuals, No.
as a collective... yeah... i kinda do...
I notice more and more often, that there is this tendancy to just Dogpile like mad onto whatever the popular opinion is out there, and that it seems to be that all these people with NO training, and NO experiance are all of a sudden Experts...... (who here hasnt used the term "Sheeple" before?)
Im not even going to get into the blind ignorance people have when it comes to the media... "but why would the news lie????" sheesh....
im no cop. But ive spent some time working in the feild though. downtown toronto where things can go from ok, to bat-@#$@ in a matter of seconds... and i didnt have a firearm, or even intermediate weapons to use....
ive just been lucky that the arrests i had to make were compliant.... and didnt really fight back... (well until after i had the one guy in cuffs... then all of a sudden he turned into a big man, and started spouting off.... etc...) but whatever... Did I start hitting him at that point? no... I let him spit all over the floor and all that, because as much as I wanted to thump him one, Im not going to attack someone who is already restrained for no reason... That is called Assault. its that fine line that law and security professionals dont cross... you use the minimum force.... sometimes all it takes is a firm conversation, other times it takes a firearm.. or anything in between...
and speaking as someone who has been on the pointing, and being pointed at end of firearm usage... sometimes you have act or react very quickly or else its gonna be too late.You have to think on your feet, thats for sure.
IN HOC SIGNO said:
Yes, and i will continue to serve as per, but I still have the right, to voice my opinion as well.... if CTV wants to run a story that some Afghan Vet is cheesed off and angry on an online message board then whoop de doo.. they can go run with that for all I care. Just because I wear the uniform, doesnt mean I forfit my right to get PO-ed when the public acts stupid. it just means I have to have the knowledge to know when to speak and when to keep my yap shut....
online? i think im ok... standing in CF's in front of a CBC news crew? not a smart move obviously... Thankfully I know the difference... which brings me to the next one...
IN HOC SIGNO said:
Its because alot of the people Cops deal with are D!ckheads..... do i think that all of Canada is this way? No... do I or will I treat them all this way? No... once again, I can differentiate.... I get pissed off when people are ignorant of facts. and when said facts are presented, they choose to continue to Ignore them, in favor of ANYTHING that will support their veiwpoint no matter how back assward or out to lunch it may be....
Im accually a pretty liberal minded Conservative... (yes they do exist....) I try to keep an open mind, and willingly play devils advocate just so I can see the other perspective, or the story behind the story......
And why do I continue to Serve? because although from time to time, the idiots of the world Piss me off, I do know there are alot of good people out there.... and theyre the ones worth fighting for.... but that doesnt mean I wont get cheesed off at society from time to time, when they decide to collectively turn their backs on those who are sworn to protect them..... for no reason other a slightly one sided video, and a bias media report.
Have we all forgotten Somalia? All of us grouped into one big racist hatefull group. because of the Actions of very few individuals....
It doesnt take alot for the Sheeple to change their mind.....
and it wasnt that long ago that WE were on the bottom of that Dogpile.
but thats just my .02
- Reaction score
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- Points
- 410
As a generality, in my experience, LEO's tend to subscribe to a "you're as good as your last performance" rule when dealing with people. If you display yourself to be dangerous, unpredictable, belligerent or generally a dickweed, you will get treated as such. Prior to poor behavior on your part, you will get treated professionally and politely. The "client" is the one who dictates what face the officer adopts, and this decision process generally occurrs within seconds of first contact. More and more frequently, it is well after the first contact is made, and the polite options are exhausted is when the average clown fires up his video (or the media chooses to start coverage from this point).
This ends up translating into the general population who feel they can chime off on police issues without having Clue #1 as to how it works in the real world. So as such time as some chump decides to wax on about what we should or shouldn't do in a situation that they were not a part of, we tend to adjust our attitudes accordingly. To whit, this thread. All fairly educational, until misinformed individuals started making broad brush indictments of a situation that they had no clue about. Therein ensues frustration on the LEO's parts and comments are made.
As well, to build on Tommy's comments, I don't believe that there can be found carte blanche condemnations from LEO's against military members for any of a number of discreditable/criminal incidents that have occurred over the years. Perhaps we are just looking for the same professional courtesy that we have afforded most of you.
This ends up translating into the general population who feel they can chime off on police issues without having Clue #1 as to how it works in the real world. So as such time as some chump decides to wax on about what we should or shouldn't do in a situation that they were not a part of, we tend to adjust our attitudes accordingly. To whit, this thread. All fairly educational, until misinformed individuals started making broad brush indictments of a situation that they had no clue about. Therein ensues frustration on the LEO's parts and comments are made.
As well, to build on Tommy's comments, I don't believe that there can be found carte blanche condemnations from LEO's against military members for any of a number of discreditable/criminal incidents that have occurred over the years. Perhaps we are just looking for the same professional courtesy that we have afforded most of you.
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