The Bernier Fiascos & Resignation

[Fishbone Jones]

Take it for what it's worth. I just think there's more important things happening, then the useless, schoolyard kiddy shit that these politicians are playing. If people want to spend their time looking for non existant conspiracies under rocks, that's up to them. Just don't expect others to sit idly by, wallowing in the crap.

And I don't believe that the above was warranted, in this discussion.

I don't really care. You have your opinion, I have mine. If I'd wanted to centre someone out, in the first person, I would have. Kind of, if the hat fits sort of thing.

I am not sure of your point or if you are you are asking me to buy tin foil hats.  Are you denying that foreign intelligence operatives (i.e. Chinese & Russian) operate in Canada?  

I don't know. Why don't you prove it with recent arrest records, or the news clips you're so fond of posting, without commentary. You're the one that made the statement, you're the one that has to prove it.......if you want to be credible.

Anyway, you guys have fun. Like I say there's more important things. I was going to watch my grass grow, but I got caught up here. Now I'll have to wait til morning. Carry on, maybe you'll find a kindred spirit that'll agree with you. Good luck.

 

[Rodahn]

Take it for what it's worth. I just think there's more important things happening, then the useless, schoolyard kiddy crap that these politicians are playing. If people want to spend their time looking for non existant conspiracies under rocks, that's up to them. Just don't expect others to sit idly by, wallowing in the crap.

What conspiracy? What I'm gathering from your statement is that the security of our country (such as it is) is not of any great importance?

As you so graciously noted we both have our opinions.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

What conspiracy? What I'm gathering from your statement is that the security of our country (such as it is) is not of any great importance?

As you so graciously noted we both have our opinions.

Ha, ha, that's rich.  :rofl:

You'll have to find someone else to keep you company. I have to work in the morning, oh, and check my lawn.

 

[McG]

This really is not an issue that should have consumed any of the House of Commons' time.  Because of it, time would have been taken other more important issues with greater immediate relevance on far more Canadians.

That being said, criminal bike gangs do pose a security risk.  Association with such organizations can, I've been assured, cause you great problems if you ever go for certain security clearances.  Does that mean that every Cabinet member's spouse, boyfriend, girlfriend or significant whatever needs a security screening?  Maybe we make cabinet members to be responsible for the security of their information?

Whatever the long term solution, there's no place for turning this incident into Parliamentary circus.  Those who are concerned should come forward with recommendations on protecting the security of government information in the future. 

 

[rifleman]

Security in Canada is a joke.    :

Oh great, now they know 

 

[stegner]

I don't know. Why don't you prove it with recent arrest records, or the news clips you're so fond of posting, without commentary. You're the one that made the statement, you're the one that has to prove it.......if you want to be credible.

I think credibility is hurt more by those that employ argumentum ad hominem.  Check a CSIS annual report or google canada + csis + china + spy as I did and you will find the following:

CTV.ca | China is top espionage risk to Canada: CSIS
30 Apr 2007 ... China is top espionage risk to Canada: CSIS. Updated Mon. ... He quoted a CSIS official as saying that Chinese spies stole $1 billion worth ...
www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070430/csis_china_070430/20 - 42k - Cached - Similar pages
Defectors say China running 1000 spies in Canada
15 Jun 2005 ... Defectors say China running 1000 spies in Canada ... During the mid-1990s, Juneau-Katsuya oversaw the CSIS Asian-Pacific desk. ...
www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/06/15/spies050615.html - 31k - Cached - Similar pages
Between Heaven and Earth: China tops spy list: CSIS
He quoted a CSIS official as saying that Chinese spies stole $1 billion worth ... MaKina: Canada: As an avid human rights activist and member of the China ...
ahdu88.blogspot.com/2007/04/china-tops-suspicious-activity-in.html - 76k - Cached - Similar pages
CSIS Chief says Spies from 15 Nations Working in Canada - Embassy ...
While the CSIS director did not say how many foreign spies are in Canada, China "pretty much" ranked as the top country sending agents to Canada, ...
www.embassymag.ca/html/index.php?display=story&full_path=/2007/may/2/spies/ - 38k - Cached - Similar pages
CANOE -- CNEWS - Canada: CSIS uses torture information: spy watchdog
Do you agree with the Olympic gear for Team Canada being made in China? Yes, it represents the Olympic Games ... CSIS uses torture information: spy watchdog ...
cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/02/12/4842733-cp.html - Similar pages
Chinese in Vancouver: Half of CSIS time devoted to watching spies ...
1 May 2007 ... He quoted a CSIS official as saying that Chinese spies stole $1 ... Tags: china, canada, spies, CSIS, national security, intelligence ...
chineseinvancouver.blogspot.com/2007/05/chinese-spies-top-csiss-watchlist.html - 144k - Cached - Similar pages
Operation Sidewinder: In Canada spies are us
Operation Sidewinder, Canada spies, RCMP, CSIS Canadian Security & Intelligence Service, China, Chinese Intelligence Service, economic, political military ...
www.canadafreepress.com/2005/cover012605.htm - 28k - Cached - Similar pages
China Spying
Canada's spy service (CSIS) said, in its 2003-04 report, that "China directs its departments, state-owned corporations and intelligence services ...
www.orwelltoday.com/chinaspy.shtml - 15k - Cached - Similar pages
Government vows to curb Chinese spying on Canada
16 Apr 2006 ... Government vows to curb Chinese spying on Canada ... a diminished competitive advantage," CSIS reported in a 2004 paper. ...
www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=ca90416e-fe77-4b8d-ae59-a4e9f55b6441&k=26688 - 62k - Cached - Similar pages
Lateline - 06/07/2005: Chinese defector makes spying claims in Canada
Chinese defector makes spying claims in Canada ... CSIS is doing everything that is necessary to ensure the collective security of Canadians. ...
www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2005/s1408570.htm - 11k - Cached - Similar pages

Please note this is just the first page of responses there are many more.  Feel free to do the same for canada + csis + russia + spy.

This really is not an issue that should have consumed any of the House of Commons' time.  Because of it, time would have been taken other more important issues with greater immediate relevance on far more Canadians.

This is no more a waste of time then the Conservatives accusations that Alphonse Gagliano was a member of the Bonnano Crime Family or that Liberals colluded with terrorists to weaken Canada's national security laws during their last leadership run-which Harper took care not to say outside of the House so he did not get his pants sued off.  Harper opened the door on making personal attacks national security issues.  Please note that on November 24, 2005 in Question Period Harper decried alleged Liberal connections to organized crime (which there were none as again Harper took care not to repeat his comments outside the House) and yet it is no concern that his own cabinet ministers are connected.  Say what you want Bernier, but he left himself open to being a security risk and to blackmail and as a Minister of Her Majesty could have acted in a much more appropriate manner.     

Whatever the long term solution, there's no place for turning this incident into Parliamentary circus.  Those who are concerned should come forward with recommendations on protecting the security of government information in the future. 

How do you propose this when the goverment doesn't even think Cabinet minister's dating ex-biker babes is a problem.  Heck using Harper's logic Bernier could be dating a spy or a terrorist and it would be none of his business as these things are a personal matter and it would not be the right of Canadians to ask questions either as doing so would make us 'gossipy busbodies'.  If MP's don't want their personal life examined they should leave public office. 

 

[McG]

... This is no more a waste of time then the Conservatives accusations that Alphonse Gagliano was ....

Stop.  This is not germane to the topic at hand.  One wrong does not justify another, so we absolutely do not have to get into discussing this other incident unless your intent is simply to initiate a back & forth political mudslinging event (in which case I will leave the thread as I have no interest in such valueless contests).

How do you propose [that those who are concerned should come forward with recommendations] when the goverment doesn't even think Cabinet minister's dating ex-biker babes is a problem.   

Since the opposition sees a problem & is concerned, they could propose a solution.  So far they have just exploited an opportunity to point fingers in public.

 

[Rodahn]

Since the opposition sees a problem & is concerned, they could propose a solution.  So far they have just exploited an opportunity to point fingers in public.

I agree, unfortunately this is what Canadian politics has become, and has been for some time. From all federal party's.

 

[stegner]

Stop.  This is not germane to the topic at hand. 

But it is.  This shows precedence of prior accusations of involvement of organized crime of MP's and reactions and offers context.  But since I have raised the issue already I will not beat it to death.   

Since the opposition sees a problem & is concerned, they could propose a solution.  So far they have just exploited an opportunity to point fingers in public.

But they have.  They say that spouses should be checked out by the security services, ergo a solution.  Instead of saying from now on its a good idea to make sure those that have access to minister's are not security threats the government is claiming that this is a personal attack and none of the opposition's business.

So far they have just exploited an opportunity to point fingers in public.

That is the job of the Official Opposition and is hardly unique to this situation. 
 
This is not a waste of time and tax money anymore than usual.  It's certainly better than the argument over the Monarchy and Quebec City that occurred on Wednesday.  This is not only a concern of security it is a concern of judgement and Bernier has shown some pretty bad judgement, such as his recent trip to Afghanistan.  As the opposition has noted this is just another example of the Minister of Foreign Affairs using bad judgement and they do not have confidence in him.  Why can't they admit that this is inappropriate?  For example, would it be appropriate for the RCMP Commissioner to date the ex-wife of an ex-Hell's Angel and ex-girlfriend of another biker?  Probably not.  Given that the FBI, Interpol and other foreign law enforcement agencies need the consent of Bernier to operate in Canada it was a conflict of interest also. 

 

[armyvern]

But it is.  This shows precedence of prior accusations of involvement of organized crime of MP's and reactions and offers context.  But since I have raised the issue already I will not beat it to death.     

What!!?? She was married to/and dated a biker over a decade ago. Recently she has dated an MP and this is somehow "evidence" or even "grounds" for showing that an MP is involved in organized crime?? Give me a break already.

That is the job of the Official Opposition and is hardly unique to this situation. 

Their job is to act as opposition to the sitting government regarding policy matters etc which affect Canada and her economy/population/governance & security.

Only in the purple sky world is it to accuse someone of involvement in "organized" crime because he happened to date someone who happened to date a biker way back when.

This is NOT a national security issue, please don't try to insinuate that it is like the opposition is currently doing because, meanwhile, there are quite likely actual individuals who ARE concerns to our or the US national security entering through our "so very secure" borders this very week. All this crap does is take away from Parliament actually DOING it's job of being concerned (and acting on) with real matters of importance that need dealing with.


And, quite frankly, I'm one taxpaying Canadian citizen who is entirely fed up with the pre-school romper-room-teeter-tottering and "pushs off the slide" occuring in Parliament these days -- It's NOT what I pay them for. It's all becoming one very expensive daycare center to some parties, and I'm not happy with that at all.

 

[George Wallace]

:

OK.  I now propose that we have all Members of Parliament submit not only their own, but their spouse/Girlfriend/Boyfriend, Security Clearances to CISIS for Lvl II Clearances, and all Members of Cabinet must do the same to Clear up to Lvl III.  This should take up to a min of two years for all to be done.  Members will not be able to associate with their Spouse/Girlfriend/Boyfriend until such time as they both have their Clearances signed off...............a great form of Birth Control. 

This could clean up the Gene Pool for a short period of time.

 

[Rodahn]

:

OK.  I now propose that we have all Members of Parliament submit not only their own, but their spouse/Girlfriend/Boyfriend, Security Clearances to CISIS for Lvl II Clearances, and all Members of Cabinet must do the same to Clear up to Lvl III.  This should take up to a min of two years for all to be done.   Members will not be able to associate with their Spouse/Girlfriend/Boyfriend until such time as they both have their Clearances signed off...............a great form of Birth Control. 

This could clean up the Gene Pool for a short period of time.

How quickly could we get this enacted???

 

[armyvern]

How quickly could we get this enacted???

After lifelong background checks and security clearances for all past girlfriends/boyfriends/friends/family/acquaintences have been run through the system.

Also, we'll have to do that on each and every person involved in the process (and every person they've ever come into contact with throughout their lives -- and the people those people have come into contact with and so on and so on and so on) just to make sure that the oppostion can't claim "conspiracy to let one slip through the cracks" because person "X" over here entering the name into the computer system kissed a girl way back in Grade 2 who then went on to become a stripper 25 years later in a bar that a member of the Hells Angels was seen in 13 years ago.

I figure -- about 30 millineums.  :

 

[Flip]

This really is not an issue that should have consumed any of the House of Commons' time.  Because of it, time would have been taken other more important issues with greater immediate relevance on far more Canadians.

Besides, don't we have people for this security stuff?

I don't think this belongs in the house - or in the public view.

Didn't the late P.E. Trudeau say something to the effect that the government
has no business in the bedrooms of the nation?  Not what he talking about at the time I know.  But really - this was not a proud moment for the liberals.

I'm with Vern.
What goes on in parliment has gotten a little slimey.
We hear less grand oratory about big ideas and we hear more cat calling and cheap shots.  Unfortunately, I think it's a reflection of our culture. What ever happened to
"If you can't say something nice, then STFU"?


Vern......

person "X" over here entering the name into the computer system kissed a girl way back in Grade 2 who then went on to become a stripper

What's wrong with being a stripper? One of my former employees became one.

 

[Remius]

Food for thought.

The Canadian Forces recruiting system asks applicants where they have travelled and if they have relatives living abroad.  Depending on the answer they have to submit to a pre-security screening process that can take up to two years before they can be enrolled.  This, based on the sole fact that they have a family member in a country that concerns us.  So someone who has a 75 year old mother in Latvia needs to be more thouroughly checked out than the average applicant.

One would think that Bernier would have been checked out as well at a much higher level, been cleared and deemed "reliable" and not a risk.  Meaning he can be trusted with our national secrets.  

I have two relationships (both close family) who have access to the same type of information Bernier would be privy to and neither of them have ever disclosed a thing to me.  why?  Because they take their jobs seriously and understand the value of confidentialty, even towards close relatives/husbands/wives etc.

The opposition can certainly ask if she's been privy to certain info.  If the answer is no then drop it.  If the RCMP suspect something let them handle it.

 

[armyvern]

What ever happened to
"If you can't say something nice, then STFU"?


Vern......

What's wrong with being a stripper? One of my former employees became one.

Because it's NOT politically correct to say "Shut the fuck up and DO your job" anymore.

As for strippers ... who said there was anything wrong with it? Certainly not this girl. 

Tangent alert: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/41921/post-705777.html#msg705777

 

[stegner]

When Bernier was sworn in August he brought Julie and she was a present girlfriend-at least present girlfriends should be checked out.  You don't necessarily have to go back 20 years but you should consider present girlfriends who have present access. 

What!!?? She was married to/and dated a biker over a decade ago. Recently she has dated an MP and this is somehow "evidence" or even "grounds" for showing that an MP is involved in organized crime?? Give me a break already.

You are missing the context of this.  MCG was critiquing me for bring up prior accusations of Liberal MP's involvement in organized crime and terrorism by the Conservatives.  That is what I am referring to past attempts to link MP's to OC no matter how tenous. 

Btw a decade ago was smack in the middle of the biker war when innocent Canadian citizens lost their lives to car bombs and shootings.  Essentially domestic terrorism.    It was after the death of 11-Garold Daniel Desrochers and it was after the Canadian and Quebec government began the crackdown on bikers. 

And, quite frankly, I'm one taxpaying Canadian citizen who is entirely fed up with the pre-school romper-room-teeter-tottering and "pushs off the slide" occurring in Parliament these days -- It's NOT what I pay them for. It's all becoming one very expensive daycare center to some parties, and I'm not happy with that at all.

This is hardly a recent development.  It's a daycare for all the parties not some of them as none is really better than the other behaviour wise. 

This is NOT a national security issue, please don't try to insinuate that it is like the opposition is currently doing because, meanwhile, there are quite likely actual individuals who ARE concerns to our or the US national security entering through our "so very secure" borders this very week. All this crap does is take away from Parliament actually DOING it's job of being concerned (and acting on) with real matters of importance that need dealing with.

This is highly normative and you are no more qualified than I to make this assertion and I no more qualified than you to dispute it.  Let's leave it at that. 


Though do you not think that Bernier could use better judgement? In Afghanistan and picking dates? 

Moreover, the government does not seem to be raising your concerns either.    Maybe the Minister of Public Safety needs to be doing his job better, ditto the PM to ensure are borders are secure all this stuff is going on during their watch.  Not the oppositions fault however, since they don't have the power to coerce the government to act. 

 

[armyvern]

Stenger,

I'm going to assume then, that you, when first thinking about dating a girl, have run background checks on her and all her past "dates", friends and acquaintences. You seem to think that this is acceptable and normal. Word up --- MPs HAVE already completed security screenings and background checks --- and he seems to have made it through that just fine OR he wouldn't BE in the position he's in. Remember that, because you seemingly are quite adept at forgetting that little fact.

Seeing as how the Hells Angels thought about killing her, and Sirois was given the choice to "choose her OR the Angels" ... I'd say that apparently the Hells Angels didn't hold her too close to their bosom no?

As for this bit:

Btw a decade ago was smack in the middle of the biker war when innocent Canadian citizens lost their lives to car bombs and shootings.  Essentially domestic terrorism.    It was after the death of 11-Garold Daniel Desrochers and it was after the Canadian and Quebec government began the crackdown on bikers.   

What bearing does that event have on an MP who used to date a girl, who used to be married to guy who chose her over the Hells Angels Group who had no time for her?

They are not related events. Your point is a simple scare tactic trying to link the two. Now, I suspect you'll argue that somehow this ex-girlfriend played an indirect role in the above crime and ergo she, and by association Bernier, now poses a national security risk? Apparently, YOU are qualified to make this link.  :

It's not me living in the playground that some like to think is the real world.

 

[Remius]

Personally, Bernier's comments while he was in Afghanistan are more of a story than who he's dating.  But one sells more than the other so...

 

[armyvern]

Personally, Bernier's comments while he was in Afghanistan are more of a story than who he's dating.  But one sells more than the other so...

Well, I'm quite sure ... with the seizing of Aid currently occuring in Burma ... and with Bernier's having offered up the DART as a response to that disaster ... that the opposition will soon be standing within the hallowed halls to claim that he's caused those Burmese events simply to take the Canadian public's minds off this "so very important issue of National Security."  :