The Bernier Fiascos & Resignation

[armyvern]

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& grasp a little bit more; it's getting entertaining.

 

[George Wallace]

Just because these are the rules for military intelligence (if that's where you spent 25+ years in) doesn't mean they apply for Cabinet ministers. 

OK!

I would say that now you are blowing things out of your _________.  You are way outside of your sphere of knowledge and really should drop it.

 

[Rodahn]

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And how much of s stretch is it considering this thread?

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/71137.0.html

Considering that it was a much more personal and possibly/probably intimate relationship???

 

[stegner]

OK!

I would say that now you are blowing things out of your _________.  You are way outside of your sphere of knowledge and really should drop it.

Gee How much time have you spent in the PCO, PMO or Cabinet or the supporting bodies? Places that would allow you to discuss this matter of Cabinet minister's intelligently?

Answer: 0 years.

But hey don't let that get in the way of making unbecoming comments with scant evidence to justify your position and pretending that you know better.  A long career in the military does not make one an expert in everything or even on security for that matter.  I would defer to you on matters of armoured warfare-but on other matters such as Canadian politics, public policy and history not so much. 

Alas, this post is only a stretch insofar as it makes the Conservatives look bad.  If this were a Liberal Cabinet Minister I imagine the responses would be much different?  I didn't write the article in the Calgary Sun-but than it must be propaganda as the MSM is out to get Harper right?  I have heard similar arguments and other conspiracy made repeatedly on this site- now those are a stretch. 

 

[George Wallace]

Gee How much time have you spent in the PCO, PMO or Cabinet or the supporting bodies? Places that would allow you to discuss this matter of Cabinet minister's intelligently?

Answer: 0 years.   

Friggin Brilliant.

What do you have in the way of Security Knowledge?

Answer:  Ziltch!

 

[Rodahn]

What do you have in the way of Security Knowledge?

Answer:   Ziltch!

Do you know that for sure George, or are you making an assumption?

On another note, how many of the personnel on this site know for a fact that the lady in question no longer has any connection to biker gangs? If the answer is not definitive, then does there not exist the possibility of a security concern?

 

[Teeps74]

Hypothetically?

Here's a quick one.  Biker's are in the drug business.  Afghanistan has most of the world's heroin and lots of weed too.   CF transportation policies in the ME (i.e. where they land for stopover & refuel) might be of use to people who are in the drug business and would like to smuggle drugs into Canada.

 

You're funny, but unfortunately not in a good way. Your resources would be better spent on something that is not a non-issue like this.

Oh, and before you start, my reaction would be the same regardless of political party.

 

[George Wallace]

Do you know that for sure George, or are you making an assumption?

From his posts, I would say that he has absolutely no concept of what Security is.  His lack of knowledge in Security matters is quite obvious.  Is that an assumption?  I don't thinks so.

 

[stegner]

From his posts, I would say that he has absolutely no concept of what Security is.  His lack of knowledge in Security matters is quite obvious.  Is that an assumption?  I don't thinks so.

Sticks and stones.  Funny how you can't articulate an argument that has some evidence in it.  Gotta love argumentum ad hominem.  Oh well. 

 

[Nfld Sapper]

I wouldn't start a  :argument: with the MODS cause we all know who will win.

 

[Edward Campbell]

...
There is more to this story than her HA connections.  But let's forget about investigating it because she was a girlfriend of Bernier.  In my opinion this is a big sign for foreign intelligence services that Canada has lax security measures.  Why bother trying to infiltrate DND, CSIS, CSE, RCMP, IAS, SIS, DFAIT's SIB, TCI, OCIPEP, CBSA or any other Canadian intelligence service-all you need is to date a minister to get access and apparently influence.  All the opposition is saying is that Cabinet minister's need to be thoroughly checked out to ensure that there are no breaches.  It doesn't have to be every MP or even every government MP just those that have access to more sensitive materials than most.   

I doubt that:

• There is much of anything more to this story than cheap, ward heeling but desperate Québecois politicians (Bloc and Liberal alike) trying to sully the reputation of the gang (Parti conservateur du Canada) that is wiping the floor with them (BQ and PLC) in Québec; and

• The security services of Canada are much if any less vigilant than those of other countries. The business of “screening” elected politicians and their families/friends is fraught with difficulty. Some security professionals would like to think that elected politicians are just like anyone else and are subject to all the same security rules. Others accept the fact that the “people” have an overarching “knowledge” about the trustworthiness of the people they elect. How else, one wonders, was Pierre Elliot Trudeau ever allowed to read any state papers? 

 

[stegner]

The security services of Canada are much if any less vigilant than those of other countries. The business of “screening” elected politicians and their families/friends is fraught with difficulty. Some security professionals would like to think that elected politicians are just like anyone else and are subject to all the same security rules. Others accept the fact that the “people” have an overarching “knowledge” about the trustworthiness of the people they elect. How else, one wonders, was Pierre Elliot Trudeau ever allowed to read any state papers?

Indeed.  There must have been some in the old RCMP security service (and elsewhere) that were thinking: Damn it that communist hippy now has access to all the state secrets.  hahaha  ;D

 

[c_canuk]

It's amusing to see security risk described as a venereal disease

 

[stegner]

It's amusing to see security risk described as a venereal disease

Come again?  Sorry I am slow today.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Indeed.  There must have been some in the old RCMP security service (and elsewhere) that were thinking: Damn it that communist hippy now has access to all the state secrets.   hahaha  ;D

I'm reasonably certain that almost everyone in all the security services, along with a sizable minority of Canadians, thought exactly that.

The question then becomes: in what way is Bernier worse than Trudeau?

Of course he’s not, but Gilles Duceppe and Celine Stéphane Dion are sadly and markedly inferior (in all respects) to Robert Stanfield, Joe Clark and Brian Mulroney – all of whom despised Trudeau but refrained from trying to dirty him through low, personal attacks.

 

[c_canuk]

Come again?  Sorry I am slow today.

some people are posing that Bernier is a security risk because his EX girlfriend was married to a member of an organization 9 years ago that may have been a security risk, as though the risk was communicatable via intercourse.

it sounds exactly the same as the sex education lectures we got in highschool except VD has been replaced with security risk.

I can almost hear the teacher saying
"Remember kids, you aren't just exchanging information with your partner but with everyone they have exchanged information with in the past"

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

My only contribution to this thread is that I think the girlfriend is a very good looking woman.

Maxime, I salute you....you dirty dog.


Matthew.    ;D

 

[stegner]

The question then becomes: in what way is Bernier worse than Trudeau?

He is not.  Both were playboys.  This has been a long time coming then: Canada's playboy and playgirl Cabinet minister's and their playmates must be more thoroughly checked out security wise.  Should have been done way back in Borden's time let alone Trudeau's. 

I can almost hear the teacher saying
"Remember kids, you aren't just exchanging information with your partner but with everyone they have exchanged information with in the past"

Too funny ;D 

Maxime, I salute you....you dirty dog.

+1 Perhaps this all a tempest in a d-cup? 

 

[Retired AF Guy]

How do we know that was 10 years ago.

We know that because that's what all the newspapers are reporting. The marriage between Sirois and Couillard took in the mid-to-late '90's: close enough to 10 years for me.

Impossible for you or I to know, especially since no one investigated whether she has present connections to outlaw biker gangs.

You're right, we don't know if she has been investigated recently by any security/police agency. However, there are a couple of good reporters in Canada and Quebec who keep tabs on the Hell's Angel's (and other motorcycle gangs), including one from Quebec who caught a couple bullets because the HA didn't like what he was reporting. If these reporters suspected of any connections between Couillard and the HA, they would have written on it by now. 

But Bernier claims he did not know about her connections until after the fact.  Therefore, she was not known by government to have known connections. 

As my British friends would say "Bollocks!" Sirois was known to police as being a member of the HA's . They would have to be pretty stupid not to know about his marriage to Couillard, therefore she would have been in the police databases. True, Bernier may not of know about her connections; he wouldn't have been the first person to find out his/her new love interest had a shady past. I'm also willing to bet that when Couillard showed up on Bernier's arm last summer during his swearing in ceremony, there were a few police officers in Quebec who would have recognized her face/name. If there was any suspicion of her continued connections to a criminal group you-know-what would have hit the fan then, not nine months later.

I would also like to point out that the only connection that anybody has shown between Couillard and the HA was her marriage to Sirois, and another former boyfriend who ended up in the ditch. So far no one, that I know of, has shown that had actually engaged in any criminal activity, suspected or otherwise. Dumb activity to associate with known criminals true, but everyone makes mistakes. As the Gazette points she almost got whacked herself because of those associations.

Just because these are the rules for military intelligence (if that's where you spent 25+ years in) doesn't mean they apply for Cabinet ministers.

The handling of classified information is the same throughout the Canadian government whether the person is a cabinet minister, CSIS officer or some lowly private. And you will just have to take my word for it because I'm not going into any more details. 

Most concerning to me are these excerpts from the Calgary Sun (noone can claim this paper to have a liberal bias). 

http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/National/2008/05/09/5517336-sun.html

When I was in the military and I received a report from an unknown source that quoted unverified information I would treat it with caution: I wouldn't shred it, but put it aside with a question mark beside it until it was verified from another source. The same goes for this newspaper report.

  All the opposition is saying is that Cabinet minister's need to be thoroughly checked out to ensure that there are no breaches.  It doesn't have to be every MP or even every government MP just those that have access to more sensitive materials than most.

 

I believe that some people here have already ready stated that MP's are already security screened prior to assuming a cabinet post. In fact , from I understand, they get vetted by their own parties, (not be CSIS or any other agency) before they even become MP's.

What the opposition is out to do is score political points by embarrassing the CPC and the PM, with the ultimate goal of forcing Bernier to resign his cabinet post. Nothing more or nothing less Welcome to politics's, Canadian or otherwise.

 

[stegner]

You're right, we don't know if she has been investigated recently by any security/police agency. However, there are a couple of good reporters in Canada and Quebec who keep tabs on the Hell's Angel's (and other motorcycle gangs), including one from Quebec who caught a couple bullets because the HA didn't like what he was reporting. If these reporters suspected of any connections between Couillard and the HA, they would have written on it by now.

Sure-but even folks like Michel Auger can't know everything about bikers.  Just as reporters covering the DND beat don't know everything on what goes on in the CF.  Biker gangs are highly sophisticated organizations as they employ counter-intelligence units of their own to keep tabs for example on were the cops investigating them live and such.  Very scary stuff. 

I would also like to point out that the only connection that anybody has shown between Couillard and the HA was her marriage to Sirois, and another former boyfriend who ended up in the ditch. So far no one, that I know of, has shown that had actually engaged in any criminal activity, suspected or otherwise. Dumb activity to associate with known criminals true, but everyone makes mistakes. As the Gazette points she almost got whacked herself because of those associations.

Madame Couillard was once arrested along with some her HA friends though never charged for extorting a real estate agent.  Madame Couillard profession is as a real estate agent.  So I am a little suspicious of that incident though she has the presumption of innocence before guilt.  However, it's not uncommon people to drop charges against HA for obvious reasons.  I am not saying that this is the case in this instance. 

When I was in the military and I received a report from an unknown source that quoted unverified information I would treat it with caution: I wouldn't shred it, but put it aside with a question mark beside it until it was verified from another source. The same goes for this newspaper report.

That is an excellent practice.

What the opposition is out to do is score political points by embarrassing the CPC and the PM, with the ultimate goal of forcing Bernier to resign his cabinet post. Nothing more or nothing less Welcome to politics's, Canadian or otherwise.

Sure but as Michel Fortier said if the shoe was on the other foot they would be doing the same thing.  I think the larger issue here is that Bernier by his own admission knows very little on geopolitics and has demonstrated this on occasion.  He is simply not qualified to be foreign minister.  I think he is only foreign minister because he is the most prominent member of the Cabinet from Quebec.  If he were from Saskatchewan I think he would have gotten his walking papers a while ago.