The C7 Assault Rifle, M16, & AR15 family (C7A1, C7A2, C7 replacment, and C7 vs M16)

[the patriot]

Hello All,

Just a thought to start some healthy discussion on this topic. Do you feel that it is time to replace the C7 as the operational service rifle in the Canadian Armed Forces?

-the patriot-

 

[webster]

The c7/c7A1 rifle is being upgraded I believe to the C7A2...heres a link.

http://www2.sfu.ca/casr/101-c7a2.htm

 

[webster]

The c7/c7A1 rifle is being upgraded I believe to the C7A2...heres a link.

http://www2.sfu.ca/casr/101-c7a2.htm

 

[Pikache]

And since we have a new forum to deal with this stuff, off it goes there.

 

[Infanteer]

Question:

Why would we replace what is argueably the best family of assault rifles in the world today?

Answer:

We shouldn‘t, despite what all the 17 year olds at the offical Armyapp board say, we do not need the AK-47 for the infantry. With all of the issues facing the Army today, C7 replacement is last on the list of things to deal with.
However, in terms of an upgrade, this proposal seems to do the best in serving the infantry.
C7A3 proposal

 

[Sh0rtbUs]

has anybody here fired both the C7 and M16?

I‘ve gotten into many debates over which is better, and obviously lose since I‘ve never fired either!

From a soldiers perspective, not a scientist. Which would you prefer?

 

[Infanteer]

Its like comparing a Camaro to a Firebird...it just depends if you like flip up headlights or not.

 

[Sh0rtbUs]

are you saying both are exact, minus a few fancy features? I‘ve been told the m16 is much better..solely because it can be adapted to different calibres. Dont ask me wtf this means..but can the C7 do similar?

 

[onecat]

can do that with the C-7 as well. Its the same rifle, only built in Canada. Their a few different features but its the same weapon. If on US run forums, then of course they are going to say their‘s better. Its same on Canadian forums, only ours if better.

 

[Infanteer]

Shortbus, you obviously lack any knowledge of the M-16 family of rifles. Do some more resource on the internet before you drag this thread down to explaining the basics over and over again.

 

[Pikache]

Or run a search. It‘s been discussed at least few times.

 

[hoganshero]

Has there been any interest on the part of the Canadian Forces in the results of the US tests in changing the calibre of the M-16 to 6.88mm?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Short...I have fired both and I tell you that 3 rnd burst on the A2 is a pain, especially when you forget about it. I found beyond that and the sights there was no real difference, but as a matter of pride give me a C7 anyday.

 

[Yeoman]

having put several hundred rounds down range with both I have to say that the c7 is better then the m16.
so far I‘ve had less stopage‘s with the c7.
but really to me I personally see no reason to replace the c7.
however if dnd came up to me and told me that they wanted me to design the next standard assualt rifle, I personally would like to see something similar to a c8. the barrel would be a wee bit longer though, and instead of a open bolt, I‘d like to see a close bolt. as well I would like to see the 7.62 come back if it was of a close bolt design (a G3 rilfe is of this design, and it pratically stands still when being shot on full-auto).
really my only two complaints with the new c7 (so far as I have yet too shoot one) is 1) the rail system at the front of the barrel. ever so slowly because of firing the rifle, the front of the barrel with warp, the handguards should have been replaced with a RIS system. and 2) the length of the barrel. it‘s not a question of if you put a collasible stock on it. it‘s still going to be a pain to haul around in the tight areas of an apc or during fibua.
But like I stated I have not actually used the weapon yet, so until I do my mind is thinking like that.
Greg

 

[portcullisguy]

Dragoon - I can agree with you about the 3-rd burst feature. Although I have only fired the C7, not the M16, I had no trouble keeping my bursts down to 2-3 rds on my own, without the need for a burst mode. And since we are trained to use full auto during trench clearing and room clearing (although that changed mid-way through my courses to no blind-firing), having it on burst mode would be annoying, to say the least.

 

[portcullisguy]

Yeoman, maybe I‘m a little rusty, and to be honest, I haven‘t seen a C8, but if it is at all like the M4 or the C7 for that matter, it doesn‘t have an open bolt -- unless you run out of rounds, of course.

The closed bolt design makes it more accurate, which remains one of the advantages of this weapon platform.

 

[Enzo]

The C7 utilizes a rotating bolt guys.

Yeo - let me get this straight. You‘d like to see a 7.62 16" eh? Interesting. I think we‘re holding onto the NATO std for awhile. But here‘s something for you guys to check out.

http://www.tromix.com/Tromix_458.htm

Ever hear of a "Sledgehammer" rifle?

 

[Yeoman]

what the **** is that thing?!? that didn‘t explain anything to me. I‘m lost. looks like I‘ve got something to keep myself amused for 30 minutes now.
I‘d like to see a 7.62 if we got it to be a rotating closed bolt like the g3, mp5, and I believe the g36 is like. the majority of H&K assualt rifles and submachineguns are of this design.
I just personally think that the 5.56 doesn‘t truly do the job, I mean really it‘s no good past 500 meters basically, but a 7.62 is good for how far? 900 meters easily.
but of course that‘s just what I‘d like to see, wether or not it could work, I have no idea.
Greg

 

[Jeff Boomhouwer]

Didn‘t rangers in Mogadisu find 5.56 inadequet. It really has little stopping power. They had to tag skinnys 4 or 5 times.A delta guy brought an m14 7.62 and had no problems with one shot one kill. As for burst mode. Wasn‘t that a result of Vietnam and guys blasting away holding their rifles over their heads hiding below walls, and into the jungle? I think the average troop in the CF knows about consevaton on ammo. We have to . Our budgets down allow anything less.

 

[portcullisguy]

S_Baker...

Our room clearing doctrine USED to be, "Throw grenade, wait for blast, then spray inside"... but they‘ve changed it now.

Apparently one reason for the change is that if you throw a nade in first, in most cases you will get injured as not all houses are made like the ones in fibua sites (interior walls of brick/stone). Also, the potential for civilian casualties, etc.

So, this summer, without a PAM, they taught us the drill on our BIQ course. It was very ad-hoc, as there actually wasn‘t supposed to be any fibua training in our shortened BIQ course. We entered a room in teams of two, splitting the room in half and basically doing a "door kick" entry, one going one way, the other going the other way, staying against the wall and looking very SWAT while having the rifle at the ready, looking for targets. They also told us to call out things like, "Window, left" or "Mousehole, Low Right", and "Two enemy dead" before shouting "Room clear".

BOOMER004... there is a whole school of thought (they are called "old timers") who think the 5.56mm is a useless plinking round. The main reason why NATO - or at least the UK - switched from 7.62mm to 5.56mm, is because of the Bloody Sunday massacre, when British troops fired on armed republican insurgents in Northern Ireland, and civilians who were in the area and even those not in the area were killed by overpenetrating 7.62mm rounds, which had gone through walls, etc. At the time, the Brits were using the FN‘s.

Other reasons of economy no doubt led to the adoption of the 5.56mm, all of which have been discussed to death (you can carry more, etc).

I think Stoner or Armalite make an M16 variant in 7.62mm, and it sounds like it would probably be a great service rifle. But the "plinking" round will be with us for the forseeable future, I would think.