The Cost Of Treating Troops As Free Labor Providers

[medicineman]

I have a bit of an issue with this though; coming from a unit that has a pretty steady op tempo, sometimes mbr's haven't burned much leave because they've been away, or tasked, or critical to ops and of no fault of their own.  Then, when Xmas leave rolls around, they are not given the Shorts that everyone who has min Ann leave days left to burn 'so no one has to sign off on the Accum days".  So in essence the people who are working the most, and NOT able to use their vacation days, get screwed of out Short days - but IAW my understanding of the intent of Short days, they are the people the CO should see as most deserving.  rly:

I'm not saying it's right, but I'm saying it's the rationale as I can see it.  I've been in units where it was like pulling hen's teeth (one on that coast as well as one elsewhere..oddly enough, both had the same CO at the times I was in each place) to get short days because the CO wasn't willing to take on that potential little budget faux pas.

MM

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

How does effect a budget?

 

[medicineman]

IIC, CO's are made to pay out of unit operating funds the costs associate with paid out leave days over "X" without a waiver.

MM

 

[PuckChaser]

Last I looked there wasn't...however my guess is that this ensures everyone takes their leave allotments and nobody has leftovers that have to be explained away to higher HQ and paid out.  Also, as has been noted elsewhere, many folks feel that their short and special days are entitlements vice earned rewads at CO's discretion.  I FEEL it's done to prove a point...just MHO though.

MM

And yet I've seen a unit go from a CO who refused to hand out short other than at Christmas with appalling levels of morale, to a CO who handed out short to make extra long weekends and compensate for long exercises, create lots of morale and work ethic. You can't give troops the stick all the time, they'll eventually know the carrot doesn't exist. A small gesture like a short day for job well done can do wonders for the morale of the troops.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Hmm.  I accum'd 5 x days the last 2 FYs, I haven't been made to cash them out and I'd take them as leave days before I did so...if I had my way.  I recall 48ish% tax coming off the last pers I knew who cashed days in...I could be starting to get Somezhemiers though.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

It's my understanding payouts are optional. Besides, your supervisor must be a thud fuck if he can't track your annual days (more so Army and Airforce). If Mar rolls around and you exceed the March break plan then use them in early Mar and don't top up those that don't have enough for Mar break. I assume everyone other then SOF should be able to predict deployments and such. If something skips through the cracks such as you were tracking a pirate mothership off the coast of Africa then you simply carry those days over. There can't be that many people in that boat.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I assume everyone other then SOF should be able to predict deployments and such.

Some yes, some no.  Some Sqn's are very busy places.

 

[misratah500]

As mentioned before short leave was meant for a job well done by hard working personnel. So in the navy that is traditionally a ship that had  super busy schedule. But since you have that busy schedule and you can't take a lot of leave when you want to then you end up being denied those short days. Someone ashore will be getting them though because they burned their leave while you were away sailing on exercise because the CO is afraid you might have handful of days left at the end of the year. Do they deserve it versus you with your 200+ days at sea and 1 in 8 duty tech watch while they sit at their 8-4 job at the BOR. Not in my opinion they don't, but they'll get it and the guys in the fleet won't. It's working almost exactly opposite of the intention of what it should be because alot of CO's just don't care.

Being honest here most CO tours are what 2 years now, they parachute into the boat do everything they can to look good for themselves and then fuck off back to Ottawa or parts unknown while the crew stays behind some there for 5+ years. I had a MARS officer tell me once that NCM's are just training aids for naval officers. When I reflect on the purpose of why I was away from home, TGEX, ORO course, FNO courses he's not far off.

 

[daftandbarmy]

As mentioned before short leave was meant for a job well done by hard working personnel. So in the navy that is traditionally a ship that had  super busy schedule. But since you have that busy schedule and you can't take a lot of leave when you want to then you end up being denied those short days. Someone ashore will be getting them though because they burned their leave while you were away sailing on exercise because the CO is afraid you might have handful of days left at the end of the year. Do they deserve it versus you with your 200+ days at sea and 1 in 8 duty tech watch while they sit at their 8-4 job at the BOR. Not in my opinion they don't, but they'll get it and the guys in the fleet won't. It's working almost exactly opposite of the intention of what it should be because alot of CO's just don't care.

Being honest here most CO tours are what 2 years now, they parachute into the boat do everything they can to look good for themselves and then frig off back to Ottawa or parts unknown while the crew stays behind some there for 5+ years. I had a MARS officer tell me once that NCM's are just training aids for naval officers. When I reflect on the purpose of why I was away from home, TGEX, ORO course, FNO courses he's not far off.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

It sure felt that way in the Indantry some days as well.

Are those guys working 8-4 getting sea pay?

 

[misratah500]

Most of the time no, but then you get the guys that are posted to a ship but through some sort of reason or injury can't sail and get landed to those units for weeks and months at a time.

 

[medicineman]

Hmm.  I accum'd 5 x days the last 2 FYs, I haven't been made to cash them out and I'd take them as leave days before I did so...if I had my way.  I recall 48ish% tax coming off the last pers I knew who cashed days in...I could be starting to get Somezhemiers though.

Let me rephrase it - "X" accumulated days without a waiver, regardless of how they're given, comes out of the unit budget.  Some CO's, like the one I mentioned previously, are more, shall we say, concerned, about the business aspects of their units than they are about the military side.  This person, as a for instance, spent more time at CO's O Groups doing business planning than unit leadership stuff - I dreaded going to them as the Ops Sgt and as the Clinic WO for those reasons and tended to find a reason to sneak back to my office at first opportunity.  The Command Meeting part would last about 20 minutes and the rest would take up the better part of the afternoon, like 3 hours worth or more.  Stuff like that shows up in other areas - leave, unit PT or lack of, "management retreats" vice leadership conferences, morale/stress, catering to units vs telling them how things will be done and worrying about financial bottom lines instead of personnel.  It sometimes feels like, as misratah noted, we're more part of someone's graduate school dissertation more than highly trained military personnel. 

MM

 

[Lumber]

The CO can give 2 short per month. That's why on a Xmas leave pass you'll often see 2 short in Dec and 2 short in Jan

1 year in Victoria and 4 years in Halifax and I didn't see even 1 short day for the Christmas break.

I had 2 very proactive XOs on one of my ships, and because they knew we had busy sailing schedules starting in the fall, they mandated that everyone be down to 10 days of annual leave by August 31st (5 days for Christmas and 5 days for March break). We had 2 designated leave periods during the summer to ensure this was possible. Exceptions were allowed, however, they required a memo with a plan on how you were going to spend your leave, and your supervisors concurrence that you we're otherwise needed. Still no short though.

 

[CountDC]

Or just reallocate a few of those sick days so you can pay for all those Bde level exercises...

Public servants ‘gaming the system’ — take twice as many sick days as private sector workers: report

Phillip Cross, Statistics Canada’s former chief economic analyst, concludes in the report that the existing sick-leave regime in the federal government should be overhauled because attitudes and cultural practices “rather than biology and medicine” are at the root of the problem.

He said differences between the sectors are so significant that working in the public sector itself is a determinant of sick-leave use, rather than exposure to illness or injury.

I remember in the 90s when a civvie I was supervisor of submitted a leave pass to travel out of country with a week of sick leave on it.  She felt it was an entitlement and she should be able to take it whenever she wanted.  Couldn't understand why I wouldnt action it, went to the sgt who backed me up so she called the union to complain.  She ended up changing her leave pass.

 

[CountDC]

It's my understanding payouts are optional.

yes and no -  If you simply fail to use your leave and don't recieve authority to carry over then you will have an automatic cashout (and your thud should be standing with heels together explaining to their supervisor how it happened).  It is optional for the CO as he decides if you carry over or get cashed out.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I had a MARS officer tell me once that NCM's are just training aids for naval officers. When I reflect on the purpose of why I was away from home, TGEX, ORO course, FNO courses he's not far off.

I harbour no illusions that when we return command will be posted out, a new one posted in, with a good chunk of the wardroom posted out as well and the C&POs and below will for the most part stay intact and suffer through another grueling sailing schedule.  I don’t really fault the Officers, especially the ones in command.  They get one kick at the can and taking over after a deployment must be big boots to fill.  So if they want to progress the crew must be driven, again.  It’s a vicious cycle in the Navy.

Having said all I would say if you want to measure their success you need look no further than the list of past CDSs we have had.  How many have been MARS Os or Naval Officers at all, and how successful were they?  That IMHO is a profound measuring stick. 

 

[daftandbarmy]

Having said all I would say if you want to measure their success you need look no further than the list of past CDSs we have had.  How many have been MARS Os or Naval Officers at all, and how successful were they?  That IMHO is a profound measuring stick.

As a result of one of them I still have this strange urge to search my filing cabinets  ;D

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Range declaration 20 odd years ago:

"I have no live rounds, empty casing, or Somalia documents, in my possession SIR!"

 

[OldSolduer]

As a result of one of them I still have this strange urge to search my filing cabinets  ;D

How true. We searched our Coy Tpt files and we couldn't for the life of us find any Somalia documents.....

 

[The Bread Guy]

C'mon, now - it's not like it was HIS fault, right?  >