The Decline of the Liberal Party- Swerved Into a Confederation Topic

[Kirkhill]

Well, I guess I haven't travelled far and wide in this great country of ours lately, but I don't see disenfranchisement on a regional scale in the regions you mention. I see a big divide on a provincial versus federal level between two specific provinces - Alberta and Saskatchewan - over the way the Oil and Gas industry is being treated by Ottawa, and all provinces and territories against Ottawa in matters relating to Health Care spending. But I don't see regional disenfranchisement otherwise by regions as you define them. BC, Man, ON, and even QC currently, or the Atlantic provinces don't seem to have a big "disenfranchisement" problem with the Canadian federation as it is now.

You could add farmers, which make up a substantial part of the population and economy out west, to the disgruntled - carbon and fertilizers pretty much defines their livelihoods.

On the other hand you could probably make them happier with income averaging over 7 years and granting them carbon credits for all the roots, straw, hay and bran they grow and the CO2 they pump into the atmosphere that gets consumed by grass for pasture, for marshes and peat bogs and trees for the lumber industry.

 

[Kirkhill]

One person one vote.

Don't see how that's unequal.

On the other hand, using arbitrary lines to claim "this group is equal to that group" strikes me as singularly unfair; who makes those decisions? Who decides that "two million Atlantic Canadians get the same weighting as twenty four million central Canadians"?

Its not about this group being equal to that group. Its about this group's needs being different to that one's. Wants we can work around. Needs are different. Needs start affecting food, shelter, warmth, mobility.

 

[dapaterson]

One person one vote.

You still haven't countered that.

Your definition of "equality" is where I have an issue - you're using an arbitrary, impossible to measure standard that somehow a "region" (not defined) deserves to be equal to other, equally arbitrary "regions".

So does that mean a swamp on a grid in Gagetown deserves the same representation in Parliament as, say Vancouver Island?

Or does Cape Breton deserve a veto over anything done in the provincial legislature in Halifax? Can Flin Flon dictate the agenda for all of Manitoba?


I return to a foundational principle of one person, one vote.

 

[Halifax Tar]

One person one vote.

You still haven't countered that.

Your definition of "equality" is where I have an issue - you're using an arbitrary, impossible to measure standard that somehow a "region" (not defined) deserves to be equal to other, equally arbitrary "regions".

So does that mean a swamp on a grid in Gagetown deserves the same representation in Parliament as, say Vancouver Island?

Or does Cape Breton deserve a veto over anything done in the provincial legislature in Halifax? Can Flin Flon dictate the agenda for all of Manitoba?


I return to a foundational principle of one person, one vote.

I assume this is to me ?

Who's arguing against 1 person 1 vote ? Why do I need to counter it ?

I'm talking about the redistribution of the seats in the HOC.

 

[dapaterson]

I assume this is to me ?

Who's arguing against 1 person 1 vote ?

I'm talking about the redistribution of the seats in the HOC.

You are arguing that one vote in Atlantic Canada should be the equivalent of twelve in Central Canada. You're abandoning the concept that votes are equal.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Our current electoral system is deliberately set up to give greater say to rural issues than what they would get on a 'one-for-one' basis for the votes, which is why most provinces/territories are over represented on a per capita basis.

I don't think we need to change it, I think it's basically the fault of MPs (in all parties) that think they represent only their riding's interest, vice the entire federation.

Even living in the city, it's in my best interest to make sure the farmers across the country can keep growing food, we can be self sufficient with O&G and other key resources. But on the flip side, something impacting 8 million people in the GTA is still a big deal, as it's a quarter of the population of the country.

Sure there will be individual issues in a riding where an MP should be concerned about, but a lot of it actually isn't in their swimlane for federal responsibilities.

ALl of this drives towards more government though, not less, as things like strategic management of resources requires a lot more people than just letting the market do it's thing. And when big projects cross provincial borders and federal lands, they can't avoid responsibilities or ignore the impact.

Get a lot more flies with honey, so AB/SK would maybe have better luck if they sold it to the rest of the country as 'what's in it for them' and also didn't completely ignore the emissions concerns.

 

[Halifax Tar]

You are arguing that one vote in Atlantic Canada should be the equivalent of twelve in Central Canada. You're abandoning the concept that votes are equal.

No, I agree with you. 1 person 1 vote. I know the numbers game you're playing through. You've played it before. You should whip out some equation next.

Those votes are exactly equal to each other in my scenario. As the volume of seats up for grabs are the same.

As I said, I know thats scary for central Canada. But it's time we all played on the same field in this county. And right now we are not. Only a small portion of the country needs to be paid attention to because they are seat and votes rich.

EQUAL REPRESENTATION

 

[dapaterson]

Eight four seats for Atlantic Canada would be one seat for every 24,000 people.

Eighty four seats for Central Canada would be one seat for every 279,000 people.

Explain equality to me again - how the equivalent of a sold out home game for the Maple Leafs would get a seat in Parliament if in Atlantic Canada, but the full population of Kingston ON would get less than half a seat to represent them.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Democracy on my terms

 

[dapaterson]

Half of the House of Commons for Tisdale SK (for inspiring Ministry), and the rest for the remainder of Canada.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Eight four seats for Atlantic Canada would be one seat for every 24,000 people.

Eighty four seats for Central Canada would be one seat for every 279,000 people.

Explain equality to me again - how the equivalent of a sold out home game for the Maple Leafs would get a seat in Parliament if in Atlantic Canada, but the full population of Kingston ON would get less than half a seat to represent them.

Man, you are predictable. See I told you we've been over this before.

It's spreading the seats equally. I used regions someone else used area codes. Maybe that's a better idea ?

279K people with a problem does not Trump 24K people with a problem. Even out the seats so they can all come to the table and work together instead of dictating.

Democracy on my terms

Arguably, it's been democracy on Ont and Que terms for some time.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Half of the House of Commons for Tisdale SK (for inspiring Ministry), and the rest for the remainder of Canada.

I have no idea what you're on about with this one.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The notion that municipal government has greater effect on people than higher levels is a quaint myth.

Given what I could do with the amount of money the federal government taxes away, the way that money is used to buy votes, and the constant social fiddling the feds like to do, there's no question the federal government is the most intrusive and influential. I do live in a municipality which hasn't the luxury of worrying about more than basic infrastructure, though, which might set me apart from people living in places where councils are obsessed with social engineering.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It's petty, not exactly diplomatic and proper, or maybe no truth to it. However, similar to Kat, I'm sick and tired of the west blaming their woes, slings and arrows, on Ontario. They bitch and whine about their oil. All the time forgetting that if it wasn't for Ontario, our tool making, machining, smelting and production in Ontario, the west would still be scraping in the dirt. Most of the rig tooling comes from here. Tons of the roughnecks come from the east. It's a symbiotic existence. One side can't do their jobs without the other. Quit blaming each other and understand this isn't a provincial problem. It's the fault of the federal government and their archaic policies, to divide us and bankrupt us. Put the blame where it belongs. Try and figure how to vote? You won't do it with 17,000 people (PEI) driving policy for 15 million (ONT). I don't care how you try divide it.

 

[brihard]

So does that mean a swamp on a grid hill in Gagetown deserves the same representation in Parliament as, say Vancouver Island?

FTFY

 

[dapaterson]

FTFY

Doesn't narrow it down by much.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Democracy on my terms

Now you sound like trudeau.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Now you sound like trudeau.

Not unless I typed in 7 or 8 hmm's and haw's...

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Not unless I typed in 7 or 8 hmm's and haw's...

Drink box water bottle thingies

 

[Kat Stevens]

It's petty, not exactly diplomatic and proper, or maybe no truth to it. However, similar to Kat, I'm sick and tired of the west blaming their woes, slings and arrows, on Ontario. They bitch and whine about their oil. All the time forgetting that if it wasn't for Ontario, our tool making, machining, smelting and production in Ontario, the west would still be scraping in the dirt. Most of the rig tooling comes from here. Tons of the roughnecks come from the east. It's a symbiotic existence. One side can't do their jobs without the other. Quit blaming each other and understand this isn't a provincial problem. It's the fault of the federal government and their archaic policies, to divide us and bankrupt us. Put the blame where it belongs. Try and figure how to vote? You won't do it with 17,000 people (PEI) driving policy for 15 million (ONT). I don't care how you try divide it.

The federal government that Ontbec keeps putting in power.