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The Land Operations Temperate Boots (LOTB)

BinRat55

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SCHEDULE & DISTRIBUTION MATRIX

Formation                       LOTB Distribution           Phase of Issue
3 CMBGs & CFLRS                                 1                                 1

2 Division                                 2                                 2
3 Division                                 3                                 2
4 Division                                 4                                 2
5 Division                                 5                                 2
1 Division and CADTC                   6                                 2
CA HQ / NCR                                 6                                 2

Primary Reserve                                                                         3 
3 Division                                 7                                 3
4 Division                                 8                                 3
2 Division                                 9                                 3
5 Division                               10                                 3

Phase 1:  Concurrent Issue of LOTB to the 3 Regular Force CMBG’s (including Tactical Helicopter squadrons) and CFLRS starting in Sep 15.
Phase 2: In accordance with the CA MRP, sequential issue by Division of the LOTB to all remaining Regular Force, HQs and eligible personnel in the national capital region, Primary Reserve Class B personal employed over 180 days and all other personnel/organizations entitled to the CA scale of issue.

Phase 3: In accordance with CA MRP, sequential issue by Division of the LOTB to all Primary Reserve Class A and any other remaining personnel.
 

BinRat55

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http://acims.mil.ca/sp/CosLandStratAdmin/Documents%20to%20DCCA/from%20DLR/Implementation%20Order%20(LOTB)%20Revised%20-%20Sep%2015/Implementation%20Order%20-%20LOTB%20Revised.doc

http://acims.mil.ca/sp/CosLandStratAdmin/Documents%20to%20DCCA/from%20DLR/LOTB/20150610-BNtoComdCA-LOTB_Slides_with_Notes_COS%20Strat%20reviewed.pptx

 

acen

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BinRat, is that for both versions of the boots? For two pairs per? I'm not on DWAN at the moment so I cannot see if it is in the links posted.

Thanks
 

BinRat55

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1. Components.  The CTS project will deliver 150,000 pairs of LOTB in two different models:
a. Model #1:  Boot Combat, NSN 8430-20-001-2410, with laces and side zipper; and
b. Model #2:  Boot Combat, NSN 8430-20-008-2050, with laces only.
 

Lumber

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BinRat55 said:
1. Components.  The CTS project will deliver 150,000 pairs of LOTB in two different models:
a. Model #1:  Boot Combat, NSN 8430-20-001-2410, with laces and side zipper; and
b. Model #2:  Boot Combat, NSN 8430-20-008-2050, with laces only.

I don't know if side-zipper boots are more expensive than laces-only boots, but I would argue it would be cheaper in the long run to just go with zipper-only. I'll explain my reasoning:

This might be specific to the Navy. We're issued two sets of "winter" Sea Boots and one set of "Summer" Sea Boots. The only ones with zippers, however, are the Summer Sea Boots. Which boot do you think I saw sailors wearing every day, 12 months out of the year? The summer ones. Which, means everyone (myself included) had two pairs of really nice boots sitting in their lockers/basements/closets collecting dust because, who the hell wants to tie up laces when you have a zipper!

I don't know what the scale of issue will be for the LOTB boots though.
 

dapaterson

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As far as I know, it's two pairs, individual's choice.  The ordering is not 50/50, thogh; I believe the order is weighted more heavily to the zippered models.

As the transition is ongoing, there will no doubt be parades with soldiers is a wide array of authorized gear.  They'll be wearing all the old boots in the system, plus two kinds of new boots.  If it's in CADPAT, there will be the old/old CADPAT (uncovered pocket buttons); the new/old CADPAT (covered buttons) and the new/new CADPAT (mandarin collars etc).  Too bad I never studied medicine; I think there's about to be a lot of money in treating CWOs for heart attacks.
 

BinRat55

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Lumber said:
I don't know if side-zipper boots are more expensive than laces-only boots, but I would argue it would be cheaper in the long run to just go with zipper-only. I'll explain my reasoning:

This might be specific to the Navy. We're issued two sets of "winter" Sea Boots and one set of "Summer" Sea Boots. The only ones with zippers, however, are the Summer Sea Boots. Which boot do you think I saw sailors wearing every day, 12 months out of the year? The summer ones. Which, means everyone (myself included) had two pairs of really nice boots sitting in their lockers/basements/closets collecting dust because, who the hell wants to tie up laces when you have a zipper!

Problem there is the "blowing out" of the zipper more often than laces. A set of laces cost appron .18 cents. a zipper will cose 2.54 PLUS the labor of installing it, not to mention the time spent going to Clot, going without said boot for periods of time... I just see so much against the "zipper only" theory...

Lumber said:
I don't know what the scale of issue will be for the LOTB boots though.

c. Clothing and Equipment Entitlements.  All CA personnel are entitled to two pairs of LOTB under the Scale of Issue: D01-301 – Land Force Command Operational Performance Standard Clothing & Personal Issued Items.  The introduction of a “managed choice” will not impact this entitlement.
 

Lumber

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BinRat55 said:
Problem there is the "blowing out" of the zipper more often than laces. A set of laces cost appron .18 cents. a zipper will cose 2.54 PLUS the labor of installing it, not to mention the time spent going to Clot, going without said boot for periods of time... I just see so much against the "zipper only" theory...

Maybe it's different in the army, or with these boots in specific, but in my experience (and I can confidently use that phrase now :D), when a zipper breaks, they throw out whatever it is that had the zipper on it. As a ship's team diver, I own a $1300 dry-suit. I wored in about a dozen times and hte zipper stopped working, despite no visible sign of damage. The result? They threw it in the garbage and bought me a new one.

I started that paragraph thinking I was counter-arguing, but I now see this actually supports the idea of no-zippers. If the laces break, get new laces. If the zipper breaks, get new boots. Which is more cost effective? (That being said I love my zippers... we can call it a morale and welfare expense)
 

BinRat55

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I was on an OP one time and for a solid 16 hours dreamed up many, many "morale and welfare" initiatives... funny, zippers weren't one of them.

But... why not? I remember teaching my children how to tie their sneakers, now my nephew (who is a 6 and a half and three quarters according to him...) is actually being instructed in the art of Velcro...

Let's get velcro!
 

George Wallace

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BinRat55 said:
Problem there is the "blowing out" of the zipper more often than laces. A set of laces cost appron .18 cents. a zipper will cose 2.54 PLUS the labor of installing it, not to mention the time spent going to Clot, going without said boot for periods of time... I just see so much against the "zipper only" theory...

Ah!  Shades of "Boots, Rubber, Clumsy".
 

BinRat55

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George Wallace said:
Ah!  Shades of "Boots, Rubber, Clumsy".

Definitely. However, I put those things on maybe a hundred times in my career. Think of the torture the zipper in question will receive over a few years of daily abuse... normal circumstances be damned - what about up to your arse in muck, dried on after that 4 hour night nav from hell with bark, grass, weeds, limbs stuck in there good...

Maybe those in a cubicle in Ottawa wouldn't be so hard on them...
 

Eye In The Sky

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My experience with side-zipper boots...not that great.  Now, why they just didn't get the 'lace in zippers', and issue them with each pair if the mbr wanted them...who knows.  If you are on a deployed op and you blow a zipper, you are down to 1 pr if its side-zip.  If you have a 'lace in' zipper and it blows, you can still lace them up.  Same effect, better serviceability.

Expect to see a lot of ruined heel-cups too, if people just undue the zipper to take them off.  In the end the little zipper idea is cooler than it is functional.  I had a pair of LPO Reebok TCBs with the side zipper, they didn't last a month, and that is airfield/plane usage, not field usage.  I have the exact same model of boots for my desert boots, except no side zipper and they are in near perfect shape and that included scootin' around the desert in them, forced marching with load/weapons, and a higher than average flying rate.  Great boots without the side zipper.

YMMV
 

dimsum

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Eye In The Sky said:
My experience with side-zipper boots...not that great.  Now, why they just didn't get the 'lace in zippers', and issue them with each pair if the mbr wanted them...who knows. 

In 2010 on Maple Guardian, the CANEX in Wainwright were selling the lace-in inserts for $1 per set  :nod:
 

George Wallace

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Dimsum said:
In 2010 on Maple Guardian, the CANEX in Wainwright were selling the lace-in inserts for $1 per set  :nod:

Bought a pair of those over forty years ago.  It was a "Kool Tanker" thing.  Having high arches caused the zippers to get stuck half way up.  It was faster to tie laces than fight with the zippers, so those boots found their way to the bottom of a duffle bag where I found then a couple years ago.  Kodiac Mark 1's..... ;D
 

BinRat55

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And this is my point. Some like zippers, some LOVE zippers. Some despise zippers. Some like soft and supple, some like rough and tough (no George, not your friends, your BOOTS...)

If there was an avenue where soldiers could grab a boot they could live with, this being a boot CAF can live with (a lot like the way the BTU was run) there would be a lot more satisfied customers (foot-wise). I can absolutely acknowledge that DND is really trying here, but it's not easy to meet the unique challenges we pose. The need to satisfy almost 100,000 soldiers for comfort, the need to match that comfort with the durability to sustain what a lot of us do for a living (the conditions we live in exercise to exercise, operation to operation...) and the cost associated with this initiative is a huge hurdle.

Let US, the troops, do the work FOR you ADM(Mat)...
 

captloadie

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Do we really think that the push back is coming from ADM(Mat) though? I think it still all goes back to uniformity and the belief that CAF members should all be dressed the same from top to bottom (yes I know that is laughable to some degree given our current uniform/boots issues).

Nobody sees what is under the uniform, so the BDU works. Boots though . . . .
 

Eye In The Sky

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I think it has more to do with current government 'policy and desire' to have a Canadian-made/Canadian-content (in this case, boot) that helps keep Canadian companies like Terra busy with work; this helps the job sector and helping the job sector is good politics and government.  That is the biggest reason we will never see the 'annual boot allowance', IMO.  PWGSC (?) already signed contracts and paid monies to have the boots produced.  Unless I don't understand the very basics of government contracting, and perhaps I don't, the ship has sailed on Air Force, Navy and Army boot projects.

I have no problem with this Canadian-content idea EXCEPT the boots being turned out are, when compared to other boots (such as Bates, Magnum, Danner, etc) are inferior products.  Example, the weight of the Air Force TCB is 5+ lbs/pr.  The reason given for using steel vice composite was that composite can't give a CSA Grade 1 rating.  Well, that's just false; my Magnums (Model 5314) that are LPOs are almost as light as my sneakers and they are CSA grade 1 and use composite toe and shank.  What they are, however, is roughly double the price.  They (the AF issued TCBs) are not comfortable.  The leather heel cup inside the boot will help the boot last longer, but at the cost of your heel, which might not last a day.  Did they not consider that aspect?  They are also, I was told, approx. $80 CDN a pair.  You get what you pay for, which in the case of the AF TCB is a heavy uncomfortable boot that no one wants to wear. 

The AF CEMS project did a great job identifying the specs for the AF boots:

a.  TCB specs: +10 to +30 range,harder rubber compound sole, providing the appropriate amount of cushioning in warmer climates,  breathable liners (no Gortex) for moisture wicking.

b.  CWWB specs: -25°C to +10°C range “in all operating locations”, sole is designed much like a winter tire, with a softer compound that will more easily grip icy surfaces, Gore Tex liner within the boot wall, providing the Wet Weather resistance.

The lacing system is the best I've seen to date.  The boots look 'uniform professional' IMO.  However, at the end of the day they are heavy and uncomfortable.  People aren't willing to ruin their feet when they can go to Shoeme.ca and pick up a pair of Magnum Stealth's for $100 and walk around in sneaker-weight comfort.  If you are lucky enough to have a MO/Flt Srgn who will give you a chit, you're off to the races and that is exactly what at least one person I know is doing.  He got tired of the constant BS he had to deal with to get LPOs.

Before the "but you aren't covered!" crowd says anything, I am one of the 'receives a disability pension from DVA' types.  Not once was there ever a question asked by the CAF or DVA on 'what type of boots or other kit was I wearing'.  That whole line is, IMO, an empty urban legend.

Hopefully the LOTB works out better for the Army folks than the AF boots have for a lot of AF folks.
 

BinRat55

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captloadie said:
Do we really think that the push back is coming from ADM(Mat) though? I think it still all goes back to uniformity and the belief that CAF members should all be dressed the same from top to bottom (yes I know that is laughable to some degree given our current uniform/boots issues).

Yeah, that went out the door years ago. And furthermore, we are not sending THAT particular message when we develop 2 styles / colors and say - here, choose... all the boys will wear the dark, manly brown and all the girls will wear the light, slightly effeminate brown.

When I worked the special orders desk in Clothing, I raised POs for nurses footwear. The nurses, dental assistants came in to me and gave me their info and submitted a request for the two pairs of sneakers they wanted. I gave them the spiel - neutral color, soft non-marking soles, cross-trainers not running shoes. Yada yada yada... The order was submitted, we picked them up, I inspected the goods. If they met with the standard, GTG. If they were Neon purple really expensive running shoes - they went back.
 
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