The Land Operations Temperate Boots (LOTB)

[BinRat55]

As unethical as it is, no one would cry if there was at fire a depot only where they stock triwalls of crappy boots.

Fortunately for most troops, the common sizes are what we eat through first, so they won't have to wait long.

Lol... I could think of a few other pieces of kit to roast a marshmallow on...

 

[PuckChaser]

Lol... I could think of a few other pieces of kit to roast a marshmallow on...

You could throw tacvests and bianchi holsters on to keep the fire going.

 

[BinRat55]

Fleece would create a nice colour to the burn. The C7 and 9mm wouldn't burn so well, but I would give it my best!!

 

[blackhat123]

Fleece would create a nice colour to the burn.

You monster! IMO the fleece is an excellent piece of kit. That plus thermals, and stealth suit and I'm good down to -10.

On the boot issue, I've seen a pair of the Royer ones and they seemed like they got really dirty easily and didn't clean up very well. I'll continue to wear my Rocky's until they're pried from my cold, dead hands. Apparently I'm very much so the exception to the rule; I have had good luck with the brown boots (arid combat, or something like that) when I was in a situation that required issued boots (courses, parades, etc.)

 

[dimsum]

I'll continue to wear my Rocky's until they're pried from my cold, dead hands.

If you're wearing boots on your hands, you're doing it wrong. 

 

[quadrapiper]

Agreed, my foot didnt fit in the mkIII properly nor the mondo size. (Sorry more to boots fitting then just length and width). I'll just keep on buying boots that actually fit.

Issue with the "height" of the space for your foot?

Not Army, but I've found that the more recent sea boot patterns, of the right length and width are too tall or capacious, even with the heavy wool socks, with the two sides almost meeting when laced up.

 

[sidemount]

Those might fit right. Ive always found the issued boots press down on the top of my foot. Could barely get the mkIIIs on with insoles for high arches. I find bates tactical, rocky, and magnum boots are the only ones that fit properly with high arches

 

[BinRat55]

See, 60,000 soldiers (that's 120,000 feet!) will have roughly 20,000 differences of opinion (that's 1 in 3 where the boots legitimately don't fit right or are not comfortable).

It is impossible to make everyone happy and while I really do think this boot fiasco is just that, I also see that they are trying. Many sit at their desk, in their trench, in their hatch or in their living room and say "I know you can't please everyone, but at least please me..."

I wish there was a better solution, but 20 years ago, size 7EE and 9 1/2F worked for the majority. It wasn't until we brought in the LPO option that boot complaints rose dramatically. Why is it, you think, that we went from a system with 32 sizes and very little complaints to a system with 76 sizes and massive amount of complaints?

Baffling.

 

[PuckChaser]

Mondopoint makes the shape of the boot different from commercial sizes. 20 years so, how many guys destroyed their feet in Mk3s, and just sucked it up? Troops are a lot more careful with preventing injuries now, and they want boots that will help with that. You're insinuating that the majority who are getting LPO boots are doing it for the LCF, and that's both dangerous and offensive. I'm sure some guys are gaming the system, but in whitewashing their requirement, you're going to ignore the majority who have a legitimate fitting issue with lowest bidder boots.

 

[BinRat55]

Mondopoint makes the shape of the boot different from commercial sizes. 20 years so, how many guys destroyed their feet in Mk3s, and just sucked it up? Troops are a lot more careful with preventing injuries now, and they want boots that will help with that. You're insinuating that the majority who are getting LPO boots are doing it for the LCF, and that's both dangerous and offensive. I'm sure some guys are gaming the system, but in whitewashing their requirement, you're going to ignore the majority who have a legitimate fitting issue with lowest bidder boots.

I'm not insinuating anything. I said "many" not "most". You agree that there are people gaming the system and I agree that there are those with legitimate feet issues. I am not trying to be offensive and why would you say "dangerous"? Odd word to use here...

Just putting my thoughts as I see things - I have been issuing boots for over 25 years and there is not much I haven't seen or dealt with. So I truly believe my thoughts count here in some form. Please note that I started out by saying that I absolutely agree with you - this is a fiasco at it's finest and it does need to get fixed.

I also don't see how addressing a 32 size system by implementing a 76 size system is considered "whitewashing their requirement" ... unless I misread that... albeit the 76 sizes might as well be 1000 sizes - if you have a foot issue, you have a foot issue.

Just as an aside, I am one of those whose feet do NOT fit the boots. See, several years ago I lost my big toe and part of my second on my right foot. Nothing fits right. So I know there are soldiers with legitimate concerns. And I stand by my "insinuation" that there are those out for the LCF...

as dangerous as that may be...

 

[buzgo]

I was always fine with the MKIII boot, and once my knees started disintegrating and I was given a vibram sole chit things were even  better.

Then I tried to get my boots resoled and was denied, and pushed over to the GP boot (black one like the WWB) which didn't feel right, the same way the WWB never felt right. Like the sole is too wide or something. Anyway, I couldn't get them to work.

So I wore SWATs. Until I was posted to a unit where the RSM wanted absolute uniformity, so back to physio to figure something out - something that ended up being custom boots. Note, all I wanted was to get my MK3 boots resoled. So I get the custom boots, after some hassle which included the guys at clothing stores giving me a hard time for not wearing the issued sock system (!?). The custom boots (brown, GP style, temperate) lasted about a week before they fell apart. Oh and they also suffered from the don't feel right issue.

Anyway. Enough is enough - I now wear either Danner or Lowa, can't get issued the new boot and don't really care.

I'll pile on to the long list of people complaining about this. Why is it that I can order boots online, having never tried them on, and they fit and perform better than anything the military has ever issued me - anything non-cots that is?

Honestly, and I have a pretty solid understanding of Defence Capability Development, our issue with boots appears to come down to the fact that we want to spend Canadian defence $$ in Canada - Regional Industrial Benefits. The problem is that we don't really have an effective Canadian footwear industry.

I think that the solution is to have a standard issue boot, that meets our requirements and makes 75% of the force happy, while at the same time creating a list of acceptable boots (similar to the US Army's AR 670-1 Compliant Boot List).

 

[BinRat55]

I was always fine with the MKIII boot, and once my knees started disintegrating and I was given a vibram sole chit things were even  better.

Then I tried to get my boots resoled and was denied, and pushed over to the GP boot (black one like the WWB) which didn't feel right, the same way the WWB never felt right. Like the sole is too wide or something. Anyway, I couldn't get them to work.

So I wore SWATs. Until I was posted to a unit where the RSM wanted absolute uniformity, so back to physio to figure something out - something that ended up being custom boots. Note, all I wanted was to get my MK3 boots resoled. So I get the custom boots, after some hassle which included the guys at clothing stores giving me a hard time for not wearing the issued sock system (!?). The custom boots (brown, GP style, temperate) lasted about a week before they fell apart. Oh and they also suffered from the don't feel right issue.

Anyway. Enough is enough - I now wear either Danner or Lowa, can't get issued the new boot and don't really care.

I'll pile on to the long list of people complaining about this. Why is it that I can order boots online, having never tried them on, and they fit and perform better than anything the military has ever issued me - anything non-cots that is?

Honestly, and I have a pretty solid understanding of Defence Capability Development, our issue with boots appears to come down to the fact that we want to spend Canadian defence $$ in Canada - Regional Industrial Benefits. The problem is that we don't really have an effective Canadian footwear industry.

I think that the solution is to have a standard issue boot, that meets our requirements and makes 75% of the force happy, while at the same time creating a list of acceptable boots (similar to the US Army's AR 670-1 Compliant Boot List).

Do away completely with the standard issue boot and have a Compliant Boot List. Period. This is the only thing that will make everyone happy - or at the very least absolve the CF of any malfeasance... until someone finds a boot NOT on the Compliant Boot List, and then it's this all over again!

PS - I just paid the 32 bucks myself to have my MK IIIs vibram soled. Best money I ever spent!

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Do away completely with the standard issue boot and have a Compliant Boot List. Period. This is the only thing that will make everyone happy - or at the very least absolve the CF of any malfeasance... until someone finds a boot NOT on the Compliant Boot List, and then it's this all over again!

PS - I just paid the 32 bucks myself to have my MK IIIs vibram soled. Best money I ever spent!

Where did you get them done?

 

[armyvern]

Do away completely with the standard issue boot and have a Compliant Boot List. Period. This is the only thing that will make everyone happy - or at the very least absolve the CF of any malfeasance... until someone finds a boot NOT on the Compliant Boot List, and then it's this all over again!

Not going to happen.  That was part of the National Army Op Clothing project I worked on years ago (when I was the Army Op Clothing Sgt at your current location) ... the resounding reponse to that proposal was "NYET".  Why?  Because all those troops with that proposed boot allowance would buy from out of country thus taking away Canadian jobs etc etc etc.  It's political and has been discussed here many, many times.

 

[BinRat55]

Where did you get them done?

Back in '99 there was a cobbler shop in the Regent mall and there used to be one in the mall adjacent to the Regent (the one that's not there anymore). One pair at the Regent mall he did for 33 bucks. I went back with my other pair and he was closed, but Cletus the Cobbler in the other mall did them - for free because I was a veteran! Pretty cool.

Yea, that wasn't yesterday. I still have them.

 

[armyvern]

Mondopoint makes the shape of the boot different from commercial sizes. ...

You do realize, do you not, how many troops are still having their feet destroyed by mondopoint footwear?  The numbers haven't decreased since it's introduction.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Back in '99 there was a cobbler shop in the Regent mall and there used to be one in the mall adjacent to the Regent (the one that's not there anymore). One pair at the Regent mall he did for 33 bucks. I went back with my other pair and he was closed, but Cletus the Cobbler in the other mall did them - for free because I was a veteran! Pretty cool.

Yea, that wasn't yesterday. I still have them.

Cool, will probably get my old boots resoled...even though I use SWATS now....

 

[BinRat55]

Not going to happen.  That was part of the National Army Op Clothing project I worked on years ago (when I was the Army Op Clothing Sgt at your current location) ... the resounding reponse to that proposal was "NYET".  Why?  Because all those troops with that proposed boot allowance would buy from out of country thus taking away Canadian jobs etc etc etc.  It's political and has been discussed here many, many times.

I completely understand, I really do. But I still can't wrap my simple mind around how this differs from the BTU. I have seen thousands of receipts in my career for ladies undergarments not bought in Canada - or even manufactured in North America!

I know it's political and wayyyyy over my pay grade and I can definitely accept that. This is why I am not complaining about it like others. I just have an... opinion... if you will!

PS - wanna come back here as my big boss?

 

[armyvern]

I completely understand, I really do. But I still can't wrap my simple mind around how this differs from the BTU.

The difference is in the dollars.  Even bras bought in Canada aren't, for the vast majority, made in Canada.  Negative impact upon Canadian manufacturing, thus the Canadian economy and employment, is negligble at best.

All soldiers wear boots, men far outnumber the females wearing BTU.  A couple of Canadian manufacturers do make footwear (whether we like their footwear or not and whether it is acceptable to soldiers or not aren't areas open for debate by the relevant powers that be). The cost of just one pair of footwear itself in comparison to the lower cost of 4 each bras each for far fewer soldiers (most of whom never even claim this allowance anyway - I never have claimed my bras).  The negative economic impact upon Canadian manufacturing and the economy is far greater with footwear - in the sheer costs, volumes and number of soldiers we are talking about.

Now, I do agree that a boot allowance is exactly what we need and is what I have always advocated for, but politically it is not going to happen.  Ergo, the fallout effect of that is simple:

 

[BinRat55]

...  Kind of like the Toronto Maple Leafs ... why spend time, money and studies geared to improve your product/team when the fans are selling out yours tickets years in advance anyways?  Go Bruins!

Slow, forceful, golf clap (should be an emoji for that...)

That was hands down the greatest analogy I have ever heard concerning this boot crap. Except for the Bruins stuff... Well done Vern - nice to see you still got it!!