the order of ranks,
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Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
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RCA said:
Source?
If you look waaaaay back in the Canadian Forces Personnel Newsletter, there are letters from me complaining that the term 'Senior NCM' is incorrect, as NCM replaced the term 'Other Rank' in the 1980s, and there never was a term known as 'Senior Other Rank'. NCM did NOT replace NCO.
So, 'Duty NCM' is only accurate if the task can be performed by a Private and up, Cpl and up, it must be 'Duty NCO'.
Tom
So, 'Duty NCM' is only accurate if the task can be performed by a Private and up, Cpl and up, it must be 'Duty NCO'.
Tom
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From QR&O, Vol I, Chap I, article 1.02 (available here - http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qr_o/vol1/ch001_e.asp#1.02 )
"non-commissioned member" means any person, other than an officer, who is enrolled in, or who pursuant to law is attached or seconded otherwise than as an officer to, the Canadian Forces; (militaire du rang)*
"non-commissioned officer" means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal; (sous-officier)
....
"officer" means
(a) a person who holds Her Majesty’s commission in the Canadian Forces,
(b) a person who holds the rank of officer cadet in the Canadian Forces, and
(c) any person who pursuant to law is attached or seconded as an officer to the Canadian Forces;
From QR&O Vol I, Chap 3 (available here: http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qr_o/vol1/ch003_e.asp#3.01 )
(Bilingual repeat comes from cut and paste operation)
CHAPTER 3
CHAPITRE 3
RANK, SENIORITY, COMMAND AND PRECEDENCE
GRADE, ANCIENNETÉ, COMMANDEMENT ET PRÉSÉANCE
(Refer carefully to article 1.02 (Definitions) when reading every regulation in this chapter.)
(Avoir soin de se reporter à l’article 1.02 (Définitions) à propos de chaque règlement contenu dans le présent chapitre.)
Section 1 – Rank and Seniority
Section 1 – Grade et ancienneté
3.01 – RANKS AND DESIGNATIONS OF RANK
3.01 – GRADES ET DÉSIGNATION DES GRADES
(1) The ranks of officers and non-commissioned members shall be as set out in Column I of the Schedule to the National Defence Act, which provides:
(1) Les grades des officiers et militaires du rang doivent être conformes à ceux énumérés à la colonne I de l’annexe de la Loi sur la défense nationale, qui prescrit :
I
I
OFFICERS
OFFICIERS
1. General
1. Général
2. Lieutenant-General
2. Lieutenant-général
3. Major-General
3. Major-général
4. Brigadier-General
4. Brigadier-général
5. Colonel
5. Colonel
6. Lieutenant-Colonel
6. Lieutenant-colonel
7. Major
7. Major
8. Captain
8. Capitaine
9. Lieutenant
9. Lieutenant
10. Second Lieutenant
10. Sous-lieutenant
11. Officer Cadet
11. Élève-officier
II
II
NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS
MILITAIRES DU RANG
12. Chief Warrant Officer
12. Adjudant-chef
13. Master Warrant Officer
13. Adjudant-maître
14. Warrant Officer
14. Adjudant
15. Sergeant
15. Sergent
16. Corporal
16. Caporal
17. Private
17. Soldat
Does that help??
"non-commissioned member" means any person, other than an officer, who is enrolled in, or who pursuant to law is attached or seconded otherwise than as an officer to, the Canadian Forces; (militaire du rang)*
"non-commissioned officer" means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal; (sous-officier)
....
"officer" means
(a) a person who holds Her Majesty’s commission in the Canadian Forces,
(b) a person who holds the rank of officer cadet in the Canadian Forces, and
(c) any person who pursuant to law is attached or seconded as an officer to the Canadian Forces;
From QR&O Vol I, Chap 3 (available here: http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qr_o/vol1/ch003_e.asp#3.01 )
(Bilingual repeat comes from cut and paste operation)
CHAPTER 3
CHAPITRE 3
RANK, SENIORITY, COMMAND AND PRECEDENCE
GRADE, ANCIENNETÉ, COMMANDEMENT ET PRÉSÉANCE
(Refer carefully to article 1.02 (Definitions) when reading every regulation in this chapter.)
(Avoir soin de se reporter à l’article 1.02 (Définitions) à propos de chaque règlement contenu dans le présent chapitre.)
Section 1 – Rank and Seniority
Section 1 – Grade et ancienneté
3.01 – RANKS AND DESIGNATIONS OF RANK
3.01 – GRADES ET DÉSIGNATION DES GRADES
(1) The ranks of officers and non-commissioned members shall be as set out in Column I of the Schedule to the National Defence Act, which provides:
(1) Les grades des officiers et militaires du rang doivent être conformes à ceux énumérés à la colonne I de l’annexe de la Loi sur la défense nationale, qui prescrit :
I
I
OFFICERS
OFFICIERS
1. General
1. Général
2. Lieutenant-General
2. Lieutenant-général
3. Major-General
3. Major-général
4. Brigadier-General
4. Brigadier-général
5. Colonel
5. Colonel
6. Lieutenant-Colonel
6. Lieutenant-colonel
7. Major
7. Major
8. Captain
8. Capitaine
9. Lieutenant
9. Lieutenant
10. Second Lieutenant
10. Sous-lieutenant
11. Officer Cadet
11. Élève-officier
II
II
NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS
MILITAIRES DU RANG
12. Chief Warrant Officer
12. Adjudant-chef
13. Master Warrant Officer
13. Adjudant-maître
14. Warrant Officer
14. Adjudant
15. Sergeant
15. Sergent
16. Corporal
16. Caporal
17. Private
17. Soldat
Does that help??
Sort of, but it does not go into the sub groupings, which is the crux of the matter. The Basic Recruit lesson plan went into Junior and Senior Officers etc, but also Junior NCO, Senior NCO, and Warrant Officers.
My point being, since we never called Sergeants "Senior Other Ranks" when Other Ranks was what you were if you weren't an officer, replacing the term 'Other Rank' with 'Non Commissioned Member' means it would be improper to call a Sergeant a 'Senior Non-Commissioned Member', if Senior other Rank was not a legitamate term.
All Parakeets are birds, but not all birds are Parakeets.
Tom
My point being, since we never called Sergeants "Senior Other Ranks" when Other Ranks was what you were if you weren't an officer, replacing the term 'Other Rank' with 'Non Commissioned Member' means it would be improper to call a Sergeant a 'Senior Non-Commissioned Member', if Senior other Rank was not a legitamate term.
All Parakeets are birds, but not all birds are Parakeets.
Tom
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How long does it take to become a sergent once you're a private soldier?
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Prior to unification the WO was known as a "staff sergeant"
the term Junior NCO covered both the Lance Corporal & Coproral
the term Senior NCO covered both the Sgt & Staff
Warrant Officer was a classification - coverning WO1 & WO2 (
for CWO & MWO respectively).... as still exists in the British army
the term Junior NCO covered both the Lance Corporal & Coproral
the term Senior NCO covered both the Sgt & Staff
Warrant Officer was a classification - coverning WO1 & WO2 (
for CWO & MWO respectively).... as still exists in the British army
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Geo:
Ranks are more complex than most think. The schedule to the NDA includes a wide array of old-style ranks in four columns. QR&Os authorise the use of column 1, and, for personnel in Naval uniforms, column II. But with a QR&O amendment we could be auth to use columns III and IV, which would let the Air Force have ranks like "Flight Lieutenant" and "Aricraftman", or even permit the use of Army ranks like "Warrant Officer, Class 1" or even "Sapper"
.
(Since, legally, we are not supposed to use Sapper, Gunner, Guardsman or other rank descriptors not auth under the QR&O)
Ranks are more complex than most think. The schedule to the NDA includes a wide array of old-style ranks in four columns. QR&Os authorise the use of column 1, and, for personnel in Naval uniforms, column II. But with a QR&O amendment we could be auth to use columns III and IV, which would let the Air Force have ranks like "Flight Lieutenant" and "Aricraftman", or even permit the use of Army ranks like "Warrant Officer, Class 1" or even "Sapper"
.(Since, legally, we are not supposed to use Sapper, Gunner, Guardsman or other rank descriptors not auth under the QR&O)
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- Points
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DAP
Yeah - was looking at the table before writing up the post - I know where you're coming from.
But, when you consider that, at one time you had three classes of ORs and that each class encompassed two ranks :
Junior NCO (LCpl / Cpl)
Senior NCO (Sgt / SSgt)
and WOs (WO2 / WO1)
it makes a little more sense..... but we've learned (and forgotten) a lot since Unification (1968).
Yeah - was looking at the table before writing up the post - I know where you're coming from.
But, when you consider that, at one time you had three classes of ORs and that each class encompassed two ranks :
Junior NCO (LCpl / Cpl)
Senior NCO (Sgt / SSgt)
and WOs (WO2 / WO1)
it makes a little more sense..... but we've learned (and forgotten) a lot since Unification (1968).
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