The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[childs56]

As we witnessed with the CF18's that were to be retired in 2003 as per the Defence White paper. We extended the life span by 20 plus years, the cost to do so will cost much more money then original prediction of life cycle. The issue comes now that we have to replace the Jet, increase capability all the while maintaining a small budget.
Again though, the initial costs need to be calculated through its intended life cycle and presented as such. Breaking down the actual cost of the each aspect of equipment purchase, weapons purchase, operating costs, infrastructure costs etc.

 

[SupersonicMax]

As we witnessed with the CF18's that were to be retired in 2003 as per the Defence White paper. We extended the life span by 20 plus years, the cost to do so will cost much more money then original prediction of life cycle. The issue comes now that we have to replace the Jet, increase capability all the while maintaining a small budget.
Again though, the initial costs need to be calculated through its intended life cycle and presented as such. Breaking down the actual cost of the each aspect of equipment purchase, weapons purchase, operating costs, infrastructure costs etc.

Procurement assumptions change over time (including before tending the contract and before taking delivery of the first aircraft). It’s a futile exercise to try to pin point an absolute number to a life cycle cost. It’d be more useful to generate relative life cycle cost compared to what we already have, or compared between contenders.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Looks like F-35A to win in Finland--how can Justin respond to a nice neutral Nordic country going from Hornets to this?

Finland Is Reported to Pick F-35 Jets in $11 Billion Tender​

Finland is set to pick Lockheed Martin Corp. F-35 fighter jets in its 10 billion-euro ($11.3 billion) tender to replace soon-outdated war planes that form a key defense pillar of Russia’s neighbor, according to a report in local media.

A fleet of F-35s will be acquired due to their capability and expected long lifespan, newspaper Iltalehti said, citing a number of defense and security policy sources it didn’t identify. The Defense Forces made the proposal to the Defense Ministry, which backs the motion along with top security and foreign policy makers, the newspaper said on Sunday [Dec. 5}.

Selecting the Lockheed Martin warplanes would align the Nordic country with the U.S. for the coming decades through industrial cooperation that accounts for almost a third of the order price. Finland is not a member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, though it trains with the alliance and uses NATO-compatible gear...

Mark
Ottawa

 

[suffolkowner]

Looks like F-35A to win in Finland--how can Justin respond to a nice neutral Nordic country going from Hornets to this?



Mark
Ottawa

How much of a say does the Government/PM have in the decision? Has the process not been established?
The Finnish government on the other hand has just been handed a recommendation
I'm still very curious how the numbers are made to work. Apparently the operational cost are to be limited to 10% of the defence budget or 250 million Euros in peacetime, seems unlikely

edit this is the original order approval

Finland – F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft with Air-to-Air Missiles and Air-to-Ground Precision Guided Munitions | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

 

[childs56]

Procurement assumptions change over time (including before tending the contract and before taking delivery of the first aircraft). It’s a futile exercise to try to pin point an absolute number to a life cycle cost. It’d be more useful to generate relative life cycle cost compared to what we already have, or compared between contenders.

That is why they need to seperate the cost of the Aircraft purchase from all the other costs in the life cycle.
Then the government cant hide certain aspects in vague budgets.
The cost to buy a jet that can fly.
The cost to build the new hangers needed to support the new jets.
The cost to buy the new AMSE equipment
The cost of the new weapon systems ie missiles, bombs, bullets.
these costs should be separate and published before putting a bid forward to the public.

 

[KevinB]

That is why they need to seperate the cost of the Aircraft purchase from all the other costs in the life cycle.
Then the government cant hide certain aspects in vague budgets.
The cost to buy a jet that can fly.
The cost to build the new hangers needed to support the new jets.
The cost to buy the new AMSE equipment
The cost of the new weapon systems ie missiles, bombs, bullets.
these costs should be separate and published before putting a bid forward to the public.

I generally hate the way programs account for their funds, I agree with @Good2Golf that it does need to be accounted for - but I do agree with you that it needs to be clearly separated in separate line items.

1) O&M: Operations and Maintenance is going to happen regardless of platform - additionally Military items by nature cannot be hard coded to a set O&M yearly - as while in Peacetime you can budget for milage, blade hours, airtime, seatime etc - it can all go out the window when the .gov says go do this here. Sure Budgets get plussed up to account for unforeseen operations (usually) - it is often a mistake to lump them in with new capital programs - as sometimes that O&M can decrease with a new platform as the cost of keeping ancient items going is often staggering.

2) Hangers: Again a capital cost associated with the new item (maybe) - often programs tend to mission creep in some areas like this and cover years of poor maintenance on older facilities with a demolish and build new approach - which jacks the cost of the program - and should have been better captured elsewhere. Also some countries love to hide expansions in this sort of thing -- new airfields on previously barren land for instance (not saying Canada is doing this - but I know some of the Euro countries love to do this for things )

3) AMSE - again a question of did we need new, or is this just another cover to either expanding capability in new sites etc.

4) Weapons and other consumables - new, or just more of the same? If the same, they fall into O&M (albeit a different type).


Lastly, the public, and politicians are terrible arbiters of "value" to a military. One should trust the Military to conduct its procurements for either Best Value to the Government, or Best Performance, or even Lowest Price Technically Acceptable (depending on the type of contract) and while the Militaries need to be transparent about where money is spend (in a Democracy) - if the Public and Politicians aren't trusting of the Military to do that - they should be replacing the service heads, and the public servants that serve in those areas.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Looks like F-35A to win in Finland--how can Justin respond to a nice neutral Nordic country going from Hornets to this?



Mark
Ottawa

Justin ref. sarcasm.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[dimsum]

Looks like F-35A to win in Finland--how can Justin respond to a nice neutral Nordic country going from Hornets to this?

Is Finland that neutral though? They aren't part of NATO officially, but they contribute troops to NATO missions.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Is Finland that neutral though? They aren't part of NATO officially, but they contribute troops to NATO missions.

Not NATO, yet.

NATO Secretary General welcomes deepened cooperation with Finland and Sweden

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg praised Finland and Sweden’s close partnership with NATO while visiting the Berga Naval Base with the North Atlantic Council, on Wednesday (27 October 2021). During the visit, they had the opportunity to witness the joint Swedish/Finnish Naval Exercise...

www.nato.int

 

[Rifleman62]

RAAF Bids Farewell To The F/A-18A/B Classic Hornet

Australia formally retired the Hornet after more than 35 years of service and nearly 408,000 total flight hours. The Royal Australian Air Force officially

theaviationist.com

RAAF Bids Farewell To The F/A-18A/B Classic Hornet​

The Royal Australian Air Force officially retired the F/A-18A/B “Classic” Hornet during an official farewell ceremony at RAAF Williamtown on November 29, 2021. The ceremony was attended by the Minister for Defence Peter Dutton, the Chief of the Air Force Air Marshal Mel Hupfeld, aviators and industry partners. The aircraft who took part in the ceremony were assigned to the last squadron still flying the Hornet, the No. 75 Squadron based at RAAF Base Tindal.

The Classic Hornet is being replaced by the F-35A Lightning II, with 44 already delivered out of the total order of 72 aircraft. No. 75 Squadron will begin the conversion progress in 2022, joining No. 3 and No. 77 Squadrons and the No. 2 OCU (Operational Conversion Unit) which already fly on the fifth gen aircraft. The RAAF declared the Initial Operational Capability of the F-35 last year and is scheduled to reach the Full Operational Capability by 2023.

snip

Even if retired by the RAAF, many of these Hornet will get a second life. As we already reported, 18 flying aircraft and seven non-flying aircraft were sold to Canada as interim gap filler until the introduction of the new fighter aircraft, while up to 46 might head out soon to the United States to join Air USA and provide contracted Red Air support and other services to the U.S. Armed Forces. Around eight aircraft will be prepared for display in Australia, including two at the Fighter World museum in Williamtown.

 

[daftandbarmy]

RAAF Bids Farewell To The F/A-18A/B Classic Hornet

Australia formally retired the Hornet after more than 35 years of service and nearly 408,000 total flight hours. The Royal Australian Air Force officially

theaviationist.com

RAAF Bids Farewell To The F/A-18A/B Classic Hornet​

The Royal Australian Air Force officially retired the F/A-18A/B “Classic” Hornet during an official farewell ceremony at RAAF Williamtown on November 29, 2021. The ceremony was attended by the Minister for Defence Peter Dutton, the Chief of the Air Force Air Marshal Mel Hupfeld, aviators and industry partners. The aircraft who took part in the ceremony were assigned to the last squadron still flying the Hornet, the No. 75 Squadron based at RAAF Base Tindal.

The Classic Hornet is being replaced by the F-35A Lightning II, with 44 already delivered out of the total order of 72 aircraft. No. 75 Squadron will begin the conversion progress in 2022, joining No. 3 and No. 77 Squadrons and the No. 2 OCU (Operational Conversion Unit) which already fly on the fifth gen aircraft. The RAAF declared the Initial Operational Capability of the F-35 last year and is scheduled to reach the Full Operational Capability by 2023.

snip

Even if retired by the RAAF, many of these Hornet will get a second life. As we already reported, 18 flying aircraft and seven non-flying aircraft were sold to Canada as interim gap filler until the introduction of the new fighter aircraft, while up to 46 might head out soon to the United States to join Air USA and provide contracted Red Air support and other services to the U.S. Armed Forces. Around eight aircraft will be prepared for display in Australia, including two at the Fighter World museum in Williamtown.

Canada be like...

 

[MarkOttawa]

Good round-up article at The Drive's "War Zone":

Finland Chooses F-35 As Its Next Fighter: Report​

The Joint Strike Fighter looks to have emerged successfully from its latest fighter competition, to replace Finland’s F/A-18 Hornets.​

Finland Chooses F-35 As Its Next Fighter: Report

The Joint Strike Fighter looks to have emerged successfully from its latest fighter competition, to replace Finland’s F/A-18 Hornets.

www.thedrive.com

Mark
Ottawa

 

[suffolkowner]

Good round-up article at The Drive's "War Zone":



Mark
Ottawa

Still can't figure out how they're going to keep the operating costs on 64 F-35's to $250M yearly thats $4M per aircraft while Norway is running $19.5M

 

[Good2Golf]

Where does $250M/yr come from?

 

[Czech_pivo]

Still can't figure out how they're going to keep the operating costs on 64 F-35's to $250M yearly thats $4M per aircraft while Norway is running $19.5M

They only fly them in the summer, it’s too dark to fly in the winter…..

 

[suffolkowner]

Where does $250M/yr come from?

For some reason its a mandatory limit on the operations budget.

IL:n tiedot: Puolustusvoimat esittää yhdysvaltalaista F-35:ttä Suomen uudeksi hävittäjäksi

Puolustusvoimat esittää Suomen seuraavaksi hävittäjäksi yhdysvaltalaista F-35-konetta. Asia vahvistetaan Iltalehdelle useista ulko- ja turvallisuuspolitiikan lähteistä.

www.iltalehti.fi

"For the F-35, the annual operating costs are relevant. They are within the framework set by the tender, according to which operating costs should not exceed 10% of the Defense Forces' peacetime budget. In that case, they should not exceed EUR 250 million."

 

[Good2Golf]

For some reason its a mandatory limit on the operations budget.

IL:n tiedot: Puolustusvoimat esittää yhdysvaltalaista F-35:ttä Suomen uudeksi hävittäjäksi

Puolustusvoimat esittää Suomen seuraavaksi hävittäjäksi yhdysvaltalaista F-35-konetta. Asia vahvistetaan Iltalehdelle useista ulko- ja turvallisuuspolitiikan lähteistä.

www.iltalehti.fi

"For the F-35, the annual operating costs are relevant. They are within the framework set by the tender, according to which operating costs should not exceed 10% of the Defense Forces' peacetime budget. In that case, they should not exceed EUR 250 million."

Sorry, suffolkowner, crossed wires. I thought that was a cap on the Canadian program…and wondered where that figure would have come from.

Cheers
G2G

 

[CBH99]

Not a good few weeks for the Super Hornet program.

Further reduction in upgrades for the jets the USN is upgrading to Block 3, eliminated from the RCAF competition, and now apparently eliminated from the Finnish competition as well.


On a professional note, I’d just let the Air Force decide which aircraft they get.

I know that isn’t how it works…but they are the experts, they know combat aircraft + current/future tech coming online better than anybody, and pilots very much have a community that talks internally. If they want ‘Machine X’ - get it for them.


On a personal note, I’m don’t feel bad for Boeing one bit.

I know the former CEO is now gone (talk about driving a company into the ground, literally and figuratively) and new management seems to be doing much better.

But they burned bridges where they shouldn’t have, and burned credibility with almost everybody. I’m not sorry that their competition is winning these contracts.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

Use for the CF 18 when taken out of service.
I use to attend the Hamilton Air Show ( is that still a thing?) and was able to attend the behind the curtain social gatherings and talk to pilots and other people involved in putting on the big show. There was a demo team who was talking about the Canadian Snow Birds and they were saying if they actually had high performance jets unlike the vintage aircraft they actually flew the show would be 100 times more amazing.
Trade the CF 114 Tutor jets in on stripped down CF 118s. The US Navy Blue Angels use to fly the older model F18s from 1986 till 2020, now they fly the Super Hornet aircraft series.
Just curious

 

[LiveFightMove]

Use for the CF 18 when taken out of service.
I use to attend the Hamilton Air Show ( is that still a thing?) and was able to attend the behind the curtain social gatherings and talk to pilots and other people involved in putting on the big show. There was a demo team who was talking about the Canadian Snow Birds and they were saying if they actually had high performance jets unlike the vintage aircraft they actually flew the show would be 100 times more amazing.
Trade the CF 114 Tutor jets in on stripped down CF 118s. The US Navy Blue Angels use to fly the older model F18s from 1986 till 2020, now they fly the Super Hornet aircraft series.
Just curious

One of the reasons why the Snow Birds are so spectacular is because of the Tutor. If they switched to the Hornet, it would be an entirely different show.