The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[KevinB]

You obviously haven't met the United States Military Industrial Complex.

Well to be fair small items like infantry rifles etc are left to a bunch of Col’s to roll the chicken bones to determine a winner.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Devil's Advocate:

Sweden has announced earlier this week that it intends to purchase new frigates, 4 of them. They plan to make a decision by early next year and intend to stress 'anti-air warfare capabilities'. They 'hope' to have 2 by 2030 and the last 2 by 2035 - pipe dreams to have 2 ships delivered by 2030 when you're 'hoping' to make a decision by early 2026.

Now hear me out. What are the chances of us cutting a deal with the Swedes similar to what the Brits just cut with the Norwegians with the Type 26, where the Norwegians 'take' one of the Brits timeslots for the initial delivery and then the rest are staggered into the production run? The key to all of this would be the ability of Irving (or Davie takes on this production) to ramp up their delivery timelines much much quicker in order to make our and the Swedes needs.

The Swedes might very well purchase the CMS330 capabilities and not use Aegis at all in their version of the River Class.

All of these just might be part of the grand strategy between Canada and Sweden that is under discussion.

The article only mentions French and Spanish possible options for the Swedes. The River's might be too large for them but its an unknown.

Swedish Navy To Acquire Frigates, Its Biggest Surface Combatants In Nearly 50 Years

Swedish Navy To Acquire Frigates, Its Biggest Surface Combatants In Nearly 50 Years​

 

[Good2Golf]

Rafale would have to turn over lots of IP to meet NORAD compatibility.

I don’t believe that. Rafale M is the only non-US fighter to integrate and operate from a Nimitz-class CVN, George H.W. Bush (CVN-77) to be precise…

We need to stay in the F35 deal to maintain the related contracts we have.

Alan Williams, ADM(Mat) back when he signed Canada in to the JSF Program, he was clear that Canada would participate in manufacture, whether it actually bought airframes or not.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Now hear me out. What are the chances of us cutting a deal with the Swedes similar to what the Brits just cut with the Norwegians with the Type 26, where the Norwegians 'take' one of the Brits timeslots for the initial delivery and then the rest are staggered into the production run? The key to all of this would be the ability of Irving (or Davie takes on this production) to ramp up their delivery timelines much much quicker in order to make our and the Swedes needs.

Never going to happen, the RCN is beyond desperate to get the River class in service and will accept no delays in order to make that happen. Nobody besides Irving is going to take on production.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Never going to happen, the RCN is beyond desperate to get the River class in service and will accept no delays in order to make that happen. Nobody besides Irving is going to take on production.

If the RCN is beyond desperate to get the River class in service why are they not flogging Irving like a rented mule to get off their butts and deliver the ships much quicker than the current timeline? Hard to take their 'desperation' as being serious if the timelines to deliver aren't being moved up.

 

[Rainbow1910]

If the RCN is beyond desperate to get the River class in service why are they not flogging Irving like a rented mule to get off their butts and deliver the ships much quicker than the current timeline? Hard to take their 'desperation' as being serious if the timelines to deliver aren't being moved up.

Because there isn't realistically anything that the RCN or Govt can to do Irving right now to actually speed up delivery timelines. Irving is still actively finishing up the final two CCG AOPS and actively working on the first River class, the yard has to clear out before work on the frigates can increase. Trying to set up another shipyard to take Irvings work at this point is going to take years and is legally dubious, given how Irving is the sole contracted combatant shipyard under the NSS and places like Davie are not capable of such work/prepping for their own Govt ship contracts in the near future.

They have been pushing in various aspects, chiefly being the removal of a bunch of non-US hardware from the design and being replaced with US counterparts to avoid integration concerns with AEGIS. Any way they can attempt to further meddle in the construction system right now is just going to slow everything down. You can't just say "make this faster" and expect them to do so, that isn't realistic.

 

[Kirkhill]

It's an interesting idea that people are proposing to give Saab 100x the control and influence on our procurement that Bombardier (who everybody loves to hate) ever had.

To be honest I would like to see elements of our arms industry nationalized.

Innovation comes from the private sector generally but some aspects of defence are required even when they don't make commercial sense.

At a certain point, if a company's income is derived from the government then that company should probably be severed from its share holders and made an arm of government.

I am a capitalist, but I have limits.

 

[Kirkhill]

You obviously haven't met the United States Military Industrial Complex.

Which do you think the German Army would prefer?

Rheinmetall's Leopard 2A8
Hanwha's K2

...

And shall we consider France and Germany's dust up with Airbus and the FCAS programme ... the latest episode in a long running saga?

...

Politics built the Vasa and the Mary Rose.

 

[YZT580]

Which do you think the German Army would prefer?

Rheinmetall's Leopard 2A8
Hanwha's K2

...

And shall we consider France and Germany's dust up with Airbus and the FCAS programme ... the latest episode in a long running saga?

...

Politics built the Vasa and the Mary Rose.

showing off opened the lower gun ports.

 

[Kirkhill]

showing off opened the lower gun ports.

And a bunch of ESL mercenaries.

At least in the Mary Rose.

 

[ytz]

I don’t believe that. Rafale M is the only non-US fighter to integrate and operate from a Nimitz-class CVN, George H.W. Bush (CVN-77) to be precise…

It was Dassault that said meeting the requirements was too onerous. Not me. Committing to CAN/US was a mandatory not rated requirement.

 

[GR66]

GCAP is pushing forward. Probably the best non-US 6th Gen fighter program we could partner with, but not likely much in the way of industrial participation available. Maybe CAE for the training simulators and some minor component production? Work on the AI systems?

Japan, UK, Italy push ahead on sixth-gen fighter program

Japan, the United Kingdom and Italy moved one step closer to a major milestone in their joint next-generation fighter program this week, as the three defense ministers met by video conference to advance the Global Combat Air Program (GCAP). The

defence-blog.com

 

[Good2Golf]

It was Dassault that said meeting the requirements was too onerous. Not me. Committing to CAN/US was a mandatory not rated requirement.

That wasn’t meant as a comment on your post, but rather about whether IP transfer would have truly been a requirement. Much of all of this is Kabuki theatre, tbh. Things can be pursued or denied, made to work or not, based on will or desire. My point about Rafale M integrating with and operating from a USN CVN makes the point that where there’s a will, there’s a way. If mechanical, electromagnetic and digital systems can interoperate between USN assets and Rafale, then I have a hard time imagining that Rafale couldn’t operate in an integrated NORAD environment.

The Gripen is an unserious red herring. It remains US ITAR-controlled political compromise, not only from American control of the GE F414 (Super Hornets, KF-21, etc.) licensed engine built by Volvo, but also the Raytheon-Collins avionics.

If Canada was truly serious about partially decoupling from US-manipulation of its growing defence investment, the Dassault Rafale is an option worthy of consideration. I personally think Dassault ‘tapped out’ back in the day, because Canada was very much an unserious nation interested more in virtue signally and feeling good about itself than taking responsibility for being a serious middle-power contributing meaningfully to global security.

 

[OldSolduer]

If Canada was truly serious about partially decoupling from US-manipulation of its growing defence investment, the Dassault is an option worthy of consideration. I personally think Dassault ‘tapped out’ back in the day, because Canada was very much an unserious nation interested more in virtue signally and feeling good about itself than taking responsibility for being a serious middle-power contributing meaningfully to global security.

Great point!!

 

[don3wing]

Not to cloud the issues, here is a short video on the South Korean KF-21 fighter being devloped. An interesting aircraft, I am not sure where it fits into Canadian needs.

 

[DBNSG]

Because there isn't realistically anything that the RCN or Govt can to do Irving right now to actually speed up delivery timelines. Irving is still actively finishing up the final two CCG AOPS and actively working on the first River class, the yard has to clear out before work on the frigates can increase. Trying to set up another shipyard to take Irvings work at this point is going to take years and is legally dubious, given how Irving is the sole contracted combatant shipyard under the NSS and places like Davie are not capable of such work/prepping for their own Govt ship contracts in the near future.

They have been pushing in various aspects, chiefly being the removal of a bunch of non-US hardware from the design and being replaced with US counterparts to avoid integration concerns with AEGIS. Any way they can attempt to further meddle in the construction system right now is just going to slow everything down. You can't just say "make this faster" and expect them to do so, that isn't realistic.

In addition Irving is in the midst of adding 13 Acres of new waterfront to Halifax shipyard.That will include new deepwater
seawall and larger set down and launch area's as well as a second paint shop.

 

[Ostrozac]

Rafale-M is the only non-US fighter to integrate and operate from a Nimitz-class CVN, George H.W. Bush (CVN-77) to be precise…

To be entirely pedantic, UK Phantoms have also integrated and operated from the Nimitz-class. The Nimitz-class has been in service since the 70’s, dating all the way back to when the Royal Navy was still in the tail hook game.

 

[Good2Golf]

To be entirely pedantic, UK Phantoms have also integrated and operated from the Nimitz-class. The Nimitz-class has been in service since the 70’s, dating all the way back to when the Royal Navy was still in the tail hook game.

View attachment 96964

I’ll match your pedantry and raise you…who designed and made the Phantom?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Trolling

To be entirely pedantic, UK Phantoms have also integrated and operated from the Nimitz-class. The Nimitz-class has been in service since the 70’s, dating all the way back to when the Royal Navy was still in the tail hook game.

View attachment 96964

Have to wonder if they ever flew Buccaneers off of USN carriers?

 

[GK .Dundas]

Trolling

Have to wonder if they ever flew Buccaneers off of USN carriers?

Yes