The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[MrWhyt]

? It's not like the Swedes have a bad track record with the planes they have made throughout history, or am I incorrect in saying so?

Boeings used to have a great reputation, then things changed.

 

[Altair]

"I won't talk unless"

I don't want to hear it=/= I wont talk unless

There are no current operators to go off. Brazil hasn't had jets for more than a year and the project is such a shambles I doubt theyll publicize much.

Sweden.

People who have to rely on them to fight and live.

Again, unless you or anyone else explains how the Gripen is miles behind or less capable that the Rafale, Eurofighter, F16 block 70/72, I don't want to hear it.

You are all acting like our allies, including the Americans are sacrificing their pilots due to flying 4th gen aircraft. So what is it? All 4th gen aircraft and operators are cannon fodder?

 

[Altair]

We have an operational requirement to fulfill here. Grabbing a jet for the sake of saying we have a second jet is not what we want.

Good thing that isn't what anyone is saying.

 

[Altair]

Boeings used to have a great reputation, then things changed.

You're not wrong.

But unless there is evidence of that...

 

[suffolkowner]

If we get to the same place everyone else is, who care how we get there?

Not true, nations are still buying Rafales, Typhoons and F16 block 70/72

And nobody is replacing their 4th gen with a 6th gen. they are just trying to plan for the 6th gen.

Of all the things that matter, to me, that is so far down the list.

they are buying those airframes as an upgrade
the timing matters
2034 first Gripen assembled in Canada?
2040 production run over?
what are these aircraft for? How effective are they going to be in 2040?

 

[Good2Golf]

Awesome seeing everybody argue about capability coming first and Saab sucking at making jets, no one’s buying Gen 4 (implicitly 4.5) jets any more, etc…


Meanwhile, plans are afoot, Canada getting SAFE contracts amongst other activities to increase Canada’s own industrial (aerospace) productivity while assisting Europe’s industrial capacity, signaling intent to purchase between 100-200 fighters, AEWC aircraft (which Canada never has had before), M-345 jet trainers, Snowbird planes (the 24 Sussex Ave or the aerospace world), potentially more C-17 or A400M, etc.

Has anyone copywritten GDS (Gripen Derangement Symdrome) yet?

 

[markppcli]

I don't want to hear it=/= I wont talk unless

Sweden

Go google how many Gripen Es they fly. Thats what we are discussing. You're right to be sanctimonious and condescending is predicated on your ability to do base line research.

Again, unless you or anyone else explains how the Gripen is miles behind or less capable that the Rafale, Eurofighter, F16 block 70/72, I don't want to hear it.

Did you even read what I wrote about requirement to run split fleets or is that, you know the actual logistics, what you "dont want to hear?"

You are all acting like our allies, including the Americans are sacrificing their pilots due to flying 4th gen aircraft. So what is it? All 4th gen aircraft and operators are cannon fodder?

Look at what was shot down in Iran. Do you see a trend? The US will phase out F16, its always been their bargain basement fighter.

 

[Maxman1]

…that all needed significant capability upgrade to levels of production that never existed at any of the facilities before…which was actually one of the goals of NSS, so an ASS could have the same thing happen and be consistent with both the COC and LPC governments of the day.

Shipping over parts for final assembly is not the same as building a ship from the keel up.

1) We already have existing plane builders here in Canada, we just don't have an existing facility that's built a fighter in the last 40+yrs.

Which isn't what Saab is offering.

Saab is making the same promises they made to Brazil of thousands of jobs, which in the end turned out to be final assembly of parts kits made in Sweden, with less than 500 new jobs created. They aren't building it under license or getting any control of the IP. And that's with Embraer, a larger company than Bombardier with far more experience in military production.

You're getting sucked in by the shiny brochure and sales pitch.

This isn't like the CF-5 and CF-104.

2) Whether we partner with Saab, Germany and Spain, (or with GCAP)

You're really not Mr. Current Affairs, are you? We're already involved with GCAP.

Canada Is Planning to Join the GCAP Sixth-Gen Fighter Program

Canada’s interest in the GCAP program could amount to a rebuke of the United States, which has urged Ottawa to purchase the fifth-generation F-35 and sixth-generation F-47 systems instead.

nationalinterest.org

4) Finally - there is NO 6th gen option with the US - as a result we have to pair with someone and it WON'T be with the US. The sooner all of the USAF fanboys realize this, the better the RCAF and the country will be. This is NOT a knock against the US, its reality, the F47 will not have foreign partners, so accept this and move forward.

This has absolutely no relevance to what I said. I did not mention the F-47 once.

I don't think I've seen anyone suggesting we pick the F-47.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I am not.

Sure, but why does this matter? It's not like the Swedes have a bad track record with the planes they have made throughout history, or am I incorrect in saying so?

Sure, but it's not like SAAB is a new player on the block, they have been making fighters for 90 years.

Is anyone here making that claim? I don't know what it is. Maybe we can ask the Brazilians, but I haven't seen anything from any current operators.

Now we are cooking with fire.

UK- 137 Typhoons/47 F35s

Italy- 96 Typhoons, 38 F35s

Germany- 196 Typhoons/35 F35s

Poland- 48 F16 Vipers/ 29 F35s

Greece- 24 Rafales/20 F35s

Now if you are saying we cannot do what Poland or Greece does, I'm just going to say...I don't believe you.

Hell, maybe even matching Italy would be nice.

Sure.

Just so we are all clear.
These are the current, final numbers of F35’s for the UK, Italy, Germany and Poland.

They are substantially more that what you quote above.

The UK aims to acquire up to 138 F-35s (having received 48 F-35Bs). Italy plans for 115 (90 ordered, plus an extra 25 approved). Poland has 32 on order with plans for 32 more. Germany ordered 35 and plans 15 more.

 

[Good2Golf]

Shipping over parts for final assembly is not the same as building a ship from the keel up.

You know this to be a fact of the pending agreement between Canada and Saab?

 

[Altair]

Just so we are all clear.
These are the current, final numbers of F35’s for the UK, Italy, Germany and Poland.

They are substantially more that what you quote above.

The UK aims to acquire up to 138 F-35s (having received 48 F-35Bs). Italy plans for 115 (90 ordered, plus an extra 25 approved). Poland has 32 on order with plans for 32 more. Germany ordered 35 and plans 15 more.

Sure thing.

The point is dual fleets does not mean nations running 4th gen fighters are flying deathtraps.

So unless someone wants to explain how the Gripen is substantially worse than the Rafale, Typhoon or Viper, I'm simply not inclinded to take that argument seriously.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I love the Pinto reference.
As someone who was about 9yrs old sitting in the backseat of a Pinto with my Mom driving and getting rear ended pretty badly, I know what you mean….

 

[Czech_pivo]

Shipping over parts for final assembly is not the same as building a ship from the keel up.

Which isn't what Saab is offering.

Saab is making the same promises they made to Brazil of thousands of jobs, which in the end turned out to be final assembly of parts kits made in Sweden, with less than 500 new jobs created. They aren't building it under license or getting any control of the IP. And that's with Embraer, a larger company than Bombardier with far more experience in military production.

You're getting sucked in by the shiny brochure and sales pitch.

This isn't like the CF-5 and CF-104.

You're really not Mr. Current Affairs, are you? We're already involved with GCAP.

Canada Is Planning to Join the GCAP Sixth-Gen Fighter Program

Canada’s interest in the GCAP program could amount to a rebuke of the United States, which has urged Ottawa to purchase the fifth-generation F-35 and sixth-generation F-47 systems instead.

nationalinterest.org

This has absolutely no relevance to what I said. I did not mention the F-47 once.

I don't think I've seen anyone suggesting we pick the F-47.

Dude, please go back and read my previous posts.
I’m not on the Saab only fan club bandwagon.

 

[Altair]

You know this to be a fact of the pending agreement between Canada and Saab?

Unless they know something that nobody else does, I imagine it's all speculation.

 

[Maxman1]

You know this to be a fact of the pending agreement between Canada and Saab?

There is no "pending agreement", us choosing the Gripen is all just speculation and conjecture. Same with Ukraine purchasing it, they haven't made an actual decision yet.

Saab's promises to us are the same as Brazil, and that worked out as final assembly, not full scale production.

 

[Altair]

Go google how many Gripen Es they fly. Thats what we are discussing. You're right to be sanctimonious and condescending is predicated on your ability to do base line research.

Do the 5 they operate not give baseline data on what their cost per hour would be?

I'm not saying it's released or that there is a huge sample size, I'm saying someone knows the answer to that question.

Did you even read what I wrote about requirement to run split fleets or is that, you know the actual logistics, what you "dont want to hear?"

I did. I don't view it as a insurmountable obstacle

Look at what was shot down in Iran. Do you see a trend? The US will phase out F16, its always been their bargain basement fighter.

Cool. Now do the everyone else running the Rafales, Typhoons and Vipers.

Again, I am not buying the "woe to the fourth gen pilots". You can save us a lot of time by either showing how the Gripen is fundementally worse than those 3 fighters or we can move on.