The utility of three military colleges, funded undergrad degrees; Officer trg & the need for a degre

[Maxadia]

But I know for a fact it won't make me a better officer...

Do tell....

 

[Remius]

When i used to recruit for RMC/ROTP a lot of people were more interested in the subsidized education portion of RMC rather than the military career it offered.  I don't have numbers but most inquiries were about how much time they would owe and what degree programs were offered as opposed to what they wanted to do in the CF. And don't get me started about the varsity sports programs...

I am curious, if anyone has this data, what the numbers are like.  As in how many are recruited in any given year, then how many of those finish.  Of those, how many complete obligatory service and of those who stays on after obligatory service.

 

[Strike]

When i used to recruit for RMC/ROTP a lot of people were more interested in the subsidized education portion of RMC rather than the military career it offered.  I don't have numbers but most inquiries were about how much time they would owe and what degree programs were offered as opposed to what they wanted to do in the CF. And don't get me started about the varsity sports programs...

I am curious, if anyone has this data, what the numbers are like.  As in how many are recruited in any given year, then how many of those finish.  Of those, how many complete obligatory service and of those who stays on after obligatory service.

Did you just join this thread?  There is a link to such a study, which is either on this page or the one before it.

 

[blacktriangle]

Do tell....

Simple. It just won't - at least for me. I think having a degree is a good thing and I want one eventually. But if someone already has an ability to think analytically and communicate effectively, I'd really question what a degree will do for them (barring a degree that directly relates to a job e.g. Engineering)

I work with people that have anywhere from Grade 10 up to a Master's degree in the NCM world. Education does not directly equate to one's ability or intelligence. I have a lot of friends that went to get degrees after high school. Most of them are unemployed or under-employed. Those that have found good careers have done so because they are self starters, intelligent, and good decision makers.

Before I joined the RegF, I originally applied as an officer. They suggested that I try CEOTP. No one seemed to think that I wouldn't be able to do my job as a Jnr officer even though I wouldn't have a degree for up to 10 years following my commissioning. Explain that? Does that mean that Lt/Capt don't need degrees?

Education is great, don't get me wrong. But at the end of the day, having a degree in poli sci isn't going to make me a better leader or manager. That will come from training courses, OJT, and experience mixed with a hint of natural ability.

I'm not an officer so I can't speak to what it takes, but from the outside looking in, I don't feel my comments are too far off the mark.

IMO...

 

[Maxadia]

But I know for a fact it won't make me a better officer...

IMO...

I'm glad you clarified that, because I was just about to tell you that you were blowing smoke out of your hind end..... ;D

You talk about how having "experience" will make you a better officer, but you don't seem to realize the value of the experiences, insights into different topics, different viewpoints and other such factors that can be obtained from a degree.  If you(not you personally, just generally) get through your degree, and you can't figure out how it will help you be a better officer in ways other than strictly academic, then perhaps you're one of these officers with a degree that some of the senior NCO's find useless and wonder why anyone would get a degree.

Life experience or degree experience or work experience....it's all experience, and it can all be helpful.

 

[George Wallace]

There may be all sorts of reasons why someone may not be able to afford to go to college....increasing tuition costs will only make that worse.  Sometimes it is not work ethic and initiative alone (or lack of) that keeps people from being able to afford university.

Then the question begs to be asked; do these people really need a Degree?  There are countless other ways to raise one's status, a Degree is not the only one.  Unfortunately, it seems that that piece of paper has some mystical property in today's Canada.

 

[GAP]

Because the Universities have done an excellent selling job.

 

[blacktriangle]

Not to mention if you want to do more than make my mochachino at Starbucks, you should probably get a Master's in this day and age.

 

[Maxadia]

Then the question begs to be asked; do these people really need a Degree?  There are countless other ways to raise one's status, a Degree is not the only one.  Unfortunately, it seems that that piece of paper has some mystical property in today's Canada.

I'll agree with you that no, they do not always need a degree, and yes, there are countless other way's to raise one's status.

Maybe I misunderstood your previous post:

This could be a point of discussion.  Does one's inability to use their initiative and work ethic work as an indicator as to whom should gain entry into institutions of higher learning?  Does our "Welfare State" in it's giving people a "free ride" really benefit the nation, and in this case the CF?

I thought you were somehow suggesting that people who couldn't afford to go to universities didn't have the initiative and work ethic to do so. (your second statement)

 

[ballz]

If you(not you personally, just generally) get through your degree, and you can't figure out how it will help you be a better officer in ways other than strictly academic, then perhaps you're one of these officers with a degree that some of the senior NCO's find useless and wonder why anyone would get a degree.

:

That's me then, thanks for assuming your experience getting a degree applies to everyone.

Because the Universities have done an excellent selling job.

Bingo. And people are still buying, too. It's the only business in the world where you can promise someone "opportunities" and suck out on them for 4 years, and then when you fail to deliver on your promise, you can get them to come back to you with more money and get a Master's to get the opportunities you failed to deliver in the first place.

 

[aesop081]

what drives them to go UT as opposed to CFR, other than the belief that a degree must be a good thing?

You mean other than the fact that certain ranks cannot CFR ?

The fact that one does not apply for CFR ?

Edit: Because someone switched the "M" and "N" keys on my keyboard !

 

[Maxadia]

:

That's me then, thanks for assuming your experience getting a degree applies to everyone.

Seriously?  You believe that not one thing that you learned during the time you did your degree can be applied to being an officer? Networking, socializing with others who share different viewpoints, debating skills, etc.

I'm not saying that these skills cannot be found elsewhere - they surely can.  And not everyone NEEDS to have a degree.  What I am saying is that yes, there are benefits to a degree.  I'm not making a blanket statement that having a degree is completely useless to being an officer and that there are no benefits from a degree.

But again, we are off topic.  I thought this thread was discussing the need for three separate military colleges.

 

[George Wallace]

Maybe I misunderstood your previous post:
I thought you were somehow suggesting that people who couldn't afford to go to universities didn't have the initiative and work ethic to do so. (your second statement)

I would say that there is likely a large percentage who may fall into that category.  Many who can not make up their minds as to what they want to be when they grow up, so they continue to live within the 'education system'.  How many "professional students" do you know?

Things are not 'Black and White'.  There are shades of gray.

 

[George Wallace]

Seriously?  You believe that not one thing that you learned during the time you did your degree can be applied to being an officer? Networking, socializing with others who share different viewpoints, debating skills, etc.

I am in a Trade where those are necessary skills of all NCMs.  No Degree is necessary.

 

[Maxadia]

I'll agree with that assessment.  I understand it is not all black and white.  I would, however, like to think that the students at the military college have their minds made up a little more than the "professional students" you see switching from degree to degree every few years.

 

[Maxadia]

I am in a Trade where those are necessary skills of all NCMs.  No Degree is necessary.

Did you miss my second paragraph?

I'm not saying that these skills cannot be found elsewhere - they surely can.  And not everyone NEEDS to have a degree.  What I am saying is that yes, there are benefits to a degree.  I'm not making a blanket statement that having a degree is completely useless to being an officer and that there are no benefits from a degree.

 

[ballz]

Seriously?  You believe that not one thing that you learned during the time you did your degree can be applied to being an officer? Networking, socializing with others who share different viewpoints, debating skills, etc.

Networking? I have gotten better networking out of Army.ca, at least people here are in the military.
Socializing with others who share different viewpoints? I have socialized with people of different viewpoints more on Army.ca
Debating? I have done more debating on Army.ca

Now I'm not advocating the CF start using Army.ca for professional officer education ( ), but I'm pretty sure that I, and the CF, was hoping to get more out the expensive (time and money) investment than a few opportunities to network, socialize, and debate. If you're argument that a degree is worth the investment is going to be based on that kind of stuff, then you are grasping at straws, straws which can be done/found anywhere in any area of life, and usually depends on the kind of person whether they get engaged in that kind of stuff, rather than the actual institution/workplace they are at.

When it comes to critical thinking and all the jazz that we've been talking about that you're supposed to acquire in 4 years of university, I've had to bang my head off the wall more times than I've had to think hard. I did a business degree and most profs know about as much about business as I do about basketball. I know most of the rules, I can dribble and shoot and stuff... but I'm not very good at it and I wouldn't even dream of teaching someone else how to play it.

 

[Maxadia]

Sounds like you are equating your experience of your degree with every other degree out there.

 

[George Wallace]

..........  I would, however, like to think that the students at the military college have their minds made up a little more than the "professional students" you see switching from degree to degree every few years.

I would say that few are.  The majority are like any other student from High School looking for a subsidized education.  Wait 'till you look at the examples of people who on completion of their ROTP, have taken their Release to work in another sector, having their new employer pay off their CF 'debts'.  Again, an example of someone not paying out of their own pocket, but having someone else pay.

 

[Maxadia]

So what's the solution then?  Drop the colleges altogether?