The utility of three military colleges, funded undergrad degrees; Officer trg & the need for a degre

[Remius]

Did you just join this thread?  There is a link to such a study, which is either on this page or the one before it.

Yep.  And thanks.

 

[Strike]

I would say that few are.  The majority are like any other student from High School looking for a subsidized education.  Wait 'till you look at the examples of people who on completion of their ROTP, have taken their Release to work in another sector, having their new employer pay off their CF 'debts'.  Again, an example of someone not paying out of their own pocket, but having someone else pay.

George, that is nowhere near as common as it was in the '90s, especially since most employers are looking for people with a Master's degree as the work force is saturated with people with Bachs.  Your comment is is kind of a red herring.

 

[Strike]

Just saw this posted on FB by a friend of a friend:

Outcome: 25 teachers (UT) and 20 civ staff (Non-UT) will have to find employement elswhere in 2013. The UTPNCM and OPME program will no longer be at RMC. Civ-U and online respectively. The RMC academic curriculum will be revised in 2013

Thank God that someone else is handling OPME!  Don't know what it's like now but when I took it I was NEVER able to get a hold of anyone at RMC.  Not sure how it will affect the OPME accreditation of the students at the end of their term.  I believe as it sits, students finish RMC with all OPMEs done.

UTPNCM going to civ-u is a good thing as far as I'm concerned, except for the lack of exposure the cadets will have to those who have already been there and done that.  Staff doesn't count since I can't see the cadets going out for a beer or hanging at their houses regularly.

 

[GAP]

UTPNCM going to civ-u is a good thing as far as I'm concerned, except for the lack of exposure the cadets will have to those who have already been there and done that.  Staff doesn't count since I can't see the cadets going out for a beer or hanging at their houses regularly.

I would think that the UTPNCM going to civ-u the  lack of exposure the cadets will be a non-issue. They already have made it to Corporal at a minimum.

 

[Strike]

I would think that the UTPNCM going to civ-u the  lack of exposure the cadets will be a non-issue. They already have made it to Corporal at a minimum.

I mean the cadets being exposed to the UTs as opposed to staff who may have been sitting at a desk for way too long.

 

[ballz]

Sounds like you are equating your experience of your degree with every other degree out there.

Nope, just defending myself against your insinuation that I am going to be incompetent during my career.

If you(not you personally, just generally) get through your degree, and you can't figure out how it will help you be a better officer in ways other than strictly academic, then perhaps you're one of these officers with a degree that some of the senior NCO's find useless and wonder why anyone would get a degree.

 

[Maxadia]

Miss the point where I said :

you (not you personally, just generally)

And the word "perhaps"?

Now you're driving home previous comments about lack of reading comprehension.

 

[ballz]

Miss the point where I said :

And the word "perhaps"?

Now you're driving home previous comments about lack of reading comprehension.

Semantics. You insinuated that the reason someone who finishes their Bachelor's and still sees no value in it is because they are incompetent. I am that person, therefore you insinuated that about me (yes, me, personally). Trying to split hairs over how you phrased it is irrelevant.

Anywho, sorry to everyone else for the tangent. Looking forward to reading more (and posting less) about the better, more efficient means of professional officer development from those who have a better vantage point than I.

 

[Strike]

Semantics. You insinuated that the reason someone who finishes their Bachelor's and still sees no value in it is because they are incompetent. I am that person, therefore you insinuated that about me (yes, me, personally). Trying to split hairs over how you phrased it is irrelevant.

Anywho, sorry to everyone else for the tangent. Looking forward to reading more (and posting less) about the better, more efficient means of professional officer development from those who have a better vantage point than I.

I thought the title of this thread was The utility of three military colleges & funded undergrad degrees (From: Budget 2012), not All ballz, all the time.

(IOW, stop thinking everything is about you, becuase it's not)

Now, can we get back on topic?

 

[blacktriangle]

Sure we can get back on topic.

Why are we paying for an OCdt's education, paying them a salary, and giving them pensionable time to do it? How much does this actually cost a year? What is the cost to take someone from entrance to graduation of RMC? I would question the NCM SEP plan as well. It's not just an officer issue.

In this day and age, and with budget constraints, why do we do this? Is the CF really that unattractive today to prospective applicants that we need to lure them in with such a nice "package"?

These are just questions. I have no doubt that many that go through ROTP like Strike et al end up serving Canada with all they have. This still doesn't make it the most efficent or cost-effective way of getting the people we need.

 

[Wookilar]

I mean the cadets being exposed to the UTs ....

For the detour:

From one of the few Otter's on here, I can attest that the number of ROTP Cadets at RMC that were willfully exposed to us is quite small and totally voluntary.

Now, the number of ROTP/RETP Cadets that were jacked up by various UT's .... well that is a different story (the cultural shift for a MCpl accustomed to a military classroom can be quite jarring).

As much as I despised my time there, the problems I had were not with the academic side of the house, it was with the quasi-military side of the house. Which is my problem with RMC in general. I have no problem with officers (or a good portion of them) receive their education from a military-based academic institution. The CWO-exec program (or whatever they are calling it now) is also good to have. It again widens the experience levels in the classrooms and can (should) lead to better discussions.

However, I would submit that the environment at RMC is not quite CF. The trappings are there, but little else. The OCdt Mess is a prime example. It is not a mess, it is a dance bar where Cadets get half-naked on a regular basis.

If we are going to have a mil-coll, then let's have one. Let's not pretend.

Back on topic:

I have to say that I am not sure the degree I earned has helped me at all in my new positions or deal with my new responsibilities. Of course, that is the whole point of the UT and CFR program really, our experience is supposed to off-set the need for a degree.

Maybe my degree will come in handy a few more levels up, not there yet so I can't comment. However, as has been noted by a few others, they seem to be doing ok without it.

Wook

 

[Maxadia]

In this day and age, and with budget constraints, why do we do this? Is the CF really that unattractive today to prospective applicants that we need to lure them in with such a nice "package"?

In certain parts of the country, I would say that yes, it really can be that unattractive.  Living here in Alberta, as opposed to my home province of PEI, the economy is doing so well that it's very easy to get an easy job.  If you don't like the one you have, all you have to do is quit, walk next door to a similar company, and boom! - usually trades people can be hired on the spot.  As for upper management....there isn't enough of them to go around, so as long as you're willing to stick out the crap for a few years, promotions are pretty easy to come by.

Now, in other parts of the country....the economy might not be as great, so you will possibly get more people from those areas applying more to the CF.  When I left Wolfville, NS. in the mid-90's, you could literally staff the front counter of any Tim Horton's or other such fast food place with Bachelor degrees, due to the small amount of other desirable jobs.  In that type of economy, when you got a good job, you damm well worked your butt off and made sure you kept it, because you never knew when another opportunity might pass by.  Therefore, something like the CF offered a more stable career choice.

Depending on where you are, YMMV.

 

[OldSolduer]

I have a question:

Infantry here, so type slowly and in small words and short sentences.


Here is my question: What is a "UT"?

 

[Wookilar]

lol my apologies

UT = UTPNCM

University Training Plan Non-Commissioned Members

Wook

edit:
Further: Otter Sqn = the sqn that the UT's belong to, named after Gen Otter.

 

[Maxadia]

Infantry here, so type slowly and in small words and short sentences.

:rofl:  Thanks for lightening the mood.  ;D

 

[dapaterson]

I have a question:

Infantry here, so type slowly and in small words and short sentences.


Here is my question: What is a "UT"?

It can mean two things:

UT = University Teacher, a classification within the public service, found exclusively within the Canadian Military Colleges; or

UT = abbreviation for UTPNCM, the University Training Plan for Non-Commissioned Members.


In this discussion, it's definition #2.

 

[Strike]

For the detour:

From one of the few Otter's on here, I can attest that the number of ROTP Cadets at RMC that were willfully exposed to us is quite small and totally voluntary.

Now, the number of ROTP/RETP Cadets that were jacked up by various UT's .... well that is a different story (the cultural shift for a MCpl accustomed to a military classroom can be quite jarring).

Wook, having been one of those cadets who actually had friends (and still maintain those relationships) with people from Otter, you're right, there weren't that many.  For those who did mix, it was usually because they were in a small degree program (I was chem eng) that had a UT and we tended to meet the others from the sqn through association.

It's a shame that there was never really anything that 'encouraged' the cadets to mix with the Otter-types.  All those military weekends where people are brought in to talk about trades and deployments.  No one ever thought to task the people from Otter to talk to the cadets.  This probably would have done a helluva lot more to foster better officer/NCM relations when the cadets finished school!

 

[OldSolduer]

:rofl:  Thanks for lightening the mood.  ;D

six munths ago I cudnt speell sarjant majer now I r one.

 

[yoman]

The OCdt Mess is a prime example. It is not a mess, it is a dance bar where Cadets get half-naked on a regular basis.

Wow wow that is totally not what happens there...... cadets get half-naked there on an infrequent basis. Not regular. ;D



Seriously though, that normally only happens when they decide to hold a dance in the cadet mess....

 

[2010newbie]

As an ROTP - OCdt currently attending a civy university I cannot speak to the experienced gained from a degree and the applicable performance of CF officers. However, I do think that the system can be improved upon.

I like Infanteer's earlier suggestion of a mandatory one-year Sandhurst-esque term for all OCdt's. This would be great start for all cadets regardless of entry plan (DEO, ROTP, UTPNCM, CEOTP). The term could start with the recruit week, FYOP, the school semesters, then finish with the completion of BMOQ. The school studies would focus on CF related courses (OPME's, Elemental specific courses, and whatever other junior officer courses are beneficial) and no general studies courses would be taught. BMOQ is of similar length to a school term and there is definitely a lot of information digested during that time. There could be 5 "courses" that are applied to the cadet's transcript for successful completion of BMOQ (Personal Health and Fitness, Introduction to the CF: Customs, History, and Structure, Intro to Applied Leadership and Teamwork, Military Drill, or whatever courses coudl be construed from the BMOQ syllabus). Since all cadets would have to attend RMC for the first year, it should dissuade some of the candidates that are applying solely for the education. It would also help to identify the weaker cadets and weed them out faster than if they were at a civilian university.

In the second-year cadets would transfer to civy university schools to complete degrees (except for candidates completing degrees in military studies who would stay at RMC). The CF could arrange agreements with certain universities that the 15 credits acquired on RMC transcripts will be accepted as core/elective transfer credits depending on the program of study. In addition the military training provided in the summers of future years would be accepted as transfer/internship credits. Some degrees (engineering) have few electives and the cadets would still have to attend for a full 4 years. Other degree programs (maybe a specially desinged Public Policy degree majoring in Defence Management??) could have one to two years shaved off the degree completion time and could be available as soon as three years after being sworn in with a bachelor's degree.

This would provide cadets with more military experience right from the start, decrease the wait time before commissioning, and still provide a cost savings to the CF (through RMC focusing non military studies and basically outsourcing general studies, and money saved on tuition through phase training and OPME's that the Officers should be completing anyways).

I originally was sworn in on a 4 year subsidy in a Commerce program. I have since convinced my university to accept 2 OPME's as transfer credit, 8 credits from an Aviation university in the US, and also accept my time in PFT and OJT this summer as an Internship. The end result is a reduction of required subsidy from 4 years to 3 years at no additional cost to the CF.