TKMS Type 212CD (Victoria class replacement megathread)

[Czech_pivo]

Not a sailor but I can do math. Not having two JSS per coast simply doesn't make sense if preparing for a wartime scenario. Ships will be lost or at best go down mechanically. You can't run two fleets on two (three) coasts thousands of kilometres apart with one ship. You might get away with that in peacetime but not in wartime. Keeping the sea lanes and ports open for commerce is vital. For the same reason I think that we need the CDCs and also a small fleet of mine hunting vessels.

$0.02

Yes, every point is valid.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Years ago I was talking to someone and he felt the minimum number of replenishment vessels was around six if we're being serious.

 

[Underway]

Not a sailor but I can do math. Not having two JSS per coast simply doesn't make sense if preparing for a wartime scenario. Ships will be lost or at best go down mechanically. You can't run two fleets on two (three) coasts thousands of kilometres apart with one ship. You might get away with that in peacetime but not in wartime. Keeping the sea lanes and ports open for commerce is vital. For the same reason I think that we need the CDCs and also a small fleet of mine hunting vessels.

$0.02

Mine hunters are not really an issue. With ships taken up from trade launching UUV's to search for and take out mines. If you can build a lot of minehunting UUV's then the rest is pretty easy.

 

[OldSolduer]

Years ago I was talking to someone and he felt the minimum number of replenishment vessels was around six if we're being serious.

We aren’t all that serious. Are we?

 

[Ganon91]

So has anyone heard more on what the Korean's are doing since we didn't select them? I've seen a few things basically saying there pulling out of a lot of stuff they had planned, even stuff not directly related to the subs in Canada?

 

[oldcpu]

In the end, I decided to copy selected translations from the Portugese language video about the Portuguese Navy's "NRP Arpão (TKMS Type-214 variant AIP-lead-acid battery) submarine under ice journey. I note from what I read, also onboard was:

• Danish naval officer
• Canadian naval officer (submariner) who is now CO of a Canadian Victoria class submarine
• US Navy civilian scientists, who have experiece in under ice travel on SSNs and in part acted as under-ice pilots.

Here are selected Google translations from the video

I don't think those translations are the best, and some details and nuances may have been lost.

Here are the approximate words (I may have missed a few words or have a few words wrong) from the Canadian naval officer (submariner) who was onboard NRP Arpão (where I think this was only 4 days under the ice - but I may have that wrong and need to search more to confirm such - so please do not quote me on this just yet):

[09:15] [English spoken by the Canadian naval officer (submariner) ]
This is the first time in recent history, a conventional naval submarine operated in the Arctic. And this was the first for the nation of Portugal. The Arctic is a harsh operating environment. But I would say there were challenges for the crew of the Arpão of the Portuguese navy as they attacked this problem set with incredible enthusiasm. The significance of NRP Arpão, which is a conventionally powered submarine, to operate under the ice, was quite significant, because, in recent history, operating under the ice has been the venture of nuclear-powered submarines, and the Portuguese Navy wanted to prove that conventional submarines, with the right preparations, can also operate in this harsh environment. I've always come out of each experience humbled and impressed at how different, but how similar, we are in achieving the alliance's mission. The Portuguese Navy was incredibly professional and eager to accomplish this mission. It was a unique opportunity to work side by side and I thought we had some great co-operation.

 

[oldcpu]

I honestly think that once we get going with JSS we're going to unlock a lot of submarine support options we didn't know were available. We'll have to see. If its a choice between fleet./sub tenders and two more JSS its gotta be two more JSS. That would round out the fleet quite well ....

I think we all hope the same.

I confess to having a fear that the shift the RCN will face, going from only 1 operational active sea going submarine (out of quantity 4) to having instead having up to 4 to 5 operational active seagoing more capable AIP/Lithium battery propulsion submarines (out of quantity 12) will be a difficult to adjust to major culture shock internal to the navy reference the new capabilities, with 'ripples' up and down the structure of the command chain, the training chain, and the maintenance chain (and "ripples" through to both recruitment and retention efforts). Its a big and potentially exciting challenge ahead for the navy.

 

[FJAG]

Mine hunters are not really an issue. With ships taken up from trade launching UUV's to search for and take out mines. If you can build a lot of minehunting UUV's then the rest is pretty easy.

I take the point on the use of UUVs. It makes sense. OTOH, I'm not sure why one would go to a STUFT if one could develop smallish purpose-built UUV mine hunting tender ships to move and deploy them. In the long run it should make control and training them easier.

 

[oldcpu]

Rather given TKMS with the Type-212CD, has been selected by Canada as the preferred supplier for the RCN, I thought to add some information on the under-ice operation already known for an AIP equipped submarine.

Reading the translations from Portugese of the Youtube video's text of the NRP Arpão (TKMS Type-214 variant AIP-lead-acid battery propulsion submarine) under ice approximate 4 day (only) journey, had me pondering some (but clearly not all) relevance to the RCN.

I suspect that successfully executing prospective under-ice and Arctic operations with a Type-212CD submarine (in addition to aspects as benefiting from upward looking sonar (ULS), periscope structure strengthening, and sail/fin strengthening) likely requires research and preparation into the unique underwater environment of the Arctic.

Any Canadian Type-212CD submarine will likely require a modern, high-quality inertial navigation system (INS) and so the specifications of the Type-212CD INS proposed by TKMS need to be carefully examined. The RCN must also acquire expertise in the use of high-resolution bathymetric and ice-draft mapping data, so to develop proficiency in the unique acoustic physics of polar ice environments.

Operating beneath an ice canopy probably could benefit from regular positional updates via geophysical feature-matching to reduce INS inertial drift (as under the ice it's not practical to raise a mast to obtain a GPS update). Standard public hydrographic charts of Canada's northern archipelagos may not have the detail that possibly more accurate classified topographical seafloor detail in possession by the USN and RN have. More accurate charts are very useful for safe subterranean navigation, and the RCN may need to consider prioritizing dedicated survey efforts and if possible prioritize classified data-sharing agreements with allied navies to secure high-fidelity environmental charts of northern chokepoints.

Next, because Arctic acoustics differ from nominal Atlantic or Pacific conditions, RCN submariner crews likely need to build proficiency in interpreting complex acoustic returns unique to the Arctic. Further the RCN likely needs to secure high-resolution bathymetric and ice-draft mapping data prior to each and any deployment to help mitigate inertial navigation (INS) drift without GPS. Additionally, submariner crews probably need to obtain operational experience using upward-looking sonar profiles to accurately read ice drafts, identify deep pressure ridge keels (downward-projecting masses of ice), so to navigate safely beneath the ice canopy and to identify locations where a periscope can be safely raised.

Obviously speculation by me - and some of this is very far in the future. Some thou (such as equipment needed) affect the RCN today, as the final negotiations for the Type-212CD submarine's detailed equipment takes place this year.

 

[oldcpu]

Another aspect (which frankly I fear is less likely to happen) is the dynamic to improve the fidelity of charts of the North West passage so to help the RCN.

I believe the Canadian Hydrographic Service (CHS), an organization housed within Fisheries and Oceans Canada (DFO) is the official national authority responsible for conducting hydrographic surveys, mapping the seabed, and producing official nautical charts and publications for all of Canada's coastal and inland waters, including the Arctic. I also believe that the Canadian Coast Guard plays an important supporting role where I suspect CHS hydrographers frequently conduct their survey operations by embarking on Canadian Coast Guard icebreakers and research vessels.

With global warming, the speculation is that the Northwest Passage may be opening up more, and hence I speculate that the Canadian Hydrographic Service may be interested in improving the charts of the Northwest Passage, primarily for commercial marine safety, civilian traffic corridors, and environmental monitoring. Likely creating more detailed charts for more deep-water Arctic trenches or narrow sub-surface choke points, that are potentially of interest primarily to submarines is very very low on CHS hydrographers priority list.

Given the Coast Guard on occasion provides ships to CHS to aid in the hydrogrphic chart updates, and given the Coast Guard is now under the Department of National Defence, I wonder if there is a potential CHS desire to update North West Passage charts , that the Coast Guard could say to CHS "We will provide the icebreaker and logistics support you need for North West Passage chart updates, but that means your survey tracks ALSO need to cover potential sub-surface transit corridors and not just confine your charting fidelity to commercial shipping lanes".

Given such charting efforts can take even more than a decade, this actually is also likely something that should be considered sooner, rather than later - ideally with improved charts available in the mid-2030s. Its less than a decade before the first four type-212CD submarines are expected to be operational.

I also speculate that once CHS obtains higher quality Arctic charts, the information obtained may be useful for RCN to trade with USN/RN for their high quality charts (if any).

Clearly this is 100% speculation by me ( I can't overstate how much speculation there is in that) - but I note it is a MASSIVE long lead item. Hydrographic charting takes many years to conduct, so its better to start sooner rather than later.