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TKMS Type 212CD (Victoria class replacement megathread)

Not a sailor but I can do math. Not having two JSS per coast simply doesn't make sense if preparing for a wartime scenario. Ships will be lost or at best go down mechanically. You can't run two fleets on two (three) coasts thousands of kilometres apart with one ship. You might get away with that in peacetime but not in wartime. Keeping the sea lanes and ports open for commerce is vital. For the same reason I think that we need the CDCs and also a small fleet of mine hunting vessels.

$0.02

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Yes, every point is valid.
 
Not a sailor but I can do math. Not having two JSS per coast simply doesn't make sense if preparing for a wartime scenario. Ships will be lost or at best go down mechanically. You can't run two fleets on two (three) coasts thousands of kilometres apart with one ship. You might get away with that in peacetime but not in wartime. Keeping the sea lanes and ports open for commerce is vital. For the same reason I think that we need the CDCs and also a small fleet of mine hunting vessels.

$0.02

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Mine hunters are not really an issue. With ships taken up from trade launching UUV's to search for and take out mines. If you can build a lot of minehunting UUV's then the rest is pretty easy.
 
So has anyone heard more on what the Korean's are doing since we didn't select them? I've seen a few things basically saying there pulling out of a lot of stuff they had planned, even stuff not directly related to the subs in Canada?
 
In the end, I decided to copy selected translations from the Portugese language video about the Portuguese Navy's "NRP Arpão (TKMS Type-214 variant AIP-lead-acid battery) submarine under ice journey. I note from what I read, also onboard was:

  • Danish naval officer
  • Canadian naval officer (submariner) who is now CO of a Canadian Victoria class submarine
  • US Navy civilian scientists, who have experiece in under ice travel on SSNs and in part acted as under-ice pilots.

Here are selected Google translations from the video

I don't think those translations are the best, and some details and nuances may have been lost.

Here are the approximate words (I may have missed a few words or have a few words wrong) from the Canadian naval officer (submariner) who was onboard NRP Arpão (where I think this was only 4 days under the ice - but I may have that wrong and need to search more to confirm such - so please do not quote me on this just yet):

[09:15] [English spoken by the Canadian naval officer (submariner) ]
This is the first time in recent history, a conventional naval submarine operated in the Arctic. And this was the first for the nation of Portugal. The Arctic is a harsh operating environment. But I would say there were challenges for the crew of the Arpão of the Portuguese navy as they attacked this problem set with incredible enthusiasm. The significance of NRP Arpão, which is a conventionally powered submarine, to operate under the ice, was quite significant, because, in recent history, operating under the ice has been the venture of nuclear-powered submarines, and the Portuguese Navy wanted to prove that conventional submarines, with the right preparations, can also operate in this harsh environment. I've always come out of each experience humbled and impressed at how different, but how similar, we are in achieving the alliance's mission. The Portuguese Navy was incredibly professional and eager to accomplish this mission. It was a unique opportunity to work side by side and I thought we had some great co-operation.
 
I honestly think that once we get going with JSS we're going to unlock a lot of submarine support options we didn't know were available. We'll have to see. If its a choice between fleet./sub tenders and two more JSS its gotta be two more JSS. That would round out the fleet quite well ....

I think we all hope the same.

I confess to having a fear that the shift the RCN will face, going from only 1 operational active sea going submarine (out of quantity 4) to having instead having up to 4 to 5 operational active seagoing more capable AIP/Lithium battery propulsion submarines (out of quantity 12) will be a difficult to adjust to major culture shock internal to the navy reference the new capabilities, with 'ripples' up and down the structure of the command chain, the training chain, and the maintenance chain (and "ripples" through to both recruitment and retention efforts). Its a big and potentially exciting challenge ahead for the navy.
 
Mine hunters are not really an issue. With ships taken up from trade launching UUV's to search for and take out mines. If you can build a lot of minehunting UUV's then the rest is pretty easy.
I take the point on the use of UUVs. It makes sense. OTOH, I'm not sure why one would go to a STUFT if one could develop smallish purpose-built UUV mine hunting tender ships to move and deploy them. In the long run it should make control and training them easier.

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Rather given TKMS with the Type-212CD, has been selected by Canada as the preferred supplier for the RCN, I thought to add some information on the under-ice operation already known for an AIP equipped submarine.

Reading the translations from Portugese of the Youtube video's text of the NRP Arpão (TKMS Type-214 variant AIP-lead-acid battery propulsion submarine) under ice approximate 4 day (only) journey, had me pondering some (but clearly not all) relevance to the RCN.

I suspect that successfully executing prospective under-ice and Arctic operations with a Type-212CD submarine (in addition to aspects as benefiting from upward looking sonar (ULS), periscope structure strengthening, and sail/fin strengthening) likely requires research and preparation into the unique underwater environment of the Arctic.

Any Canadian Type-212CD submarine will likely require a modern, high-quality inertial navigation system (INS) and so the specifications of the Type-212CD INS proposed by TKMS need to be carefully examined. The RCN must also acquire expertise in the use of high-resolution bathymetric and ice-draft mapping data, so to develop proficiency in the unique acoustic physics of polar ice environments.

Operating beneath an ice canopy probably could benefit from regular positional updates via geophysical feature-matching to reduce INS inertial drift (as under the ice it's not practical to raise a mast to obtain a GPS update). Standard public hydrographic charts of Canada's northern archipelagos may not have the detail that possibly more accurate classified topographical seafloor detail in possession by the USN and RN have. More accurate charts are very useful for safe subterranean navigation, and the RCN may need to consider prioritizing dedicated survey efforts and if possible prioritize classified data-sharing agreements with allied navies to secure high-fidelity environmental charts of northern chokepoints.

Next, because Arctic acoustics differ from nominal Atlantic or Pacific conditions, RCN submariner crews likely need to build proficiency in interpreting complex acoustic returns unique to the Arctic. Further the RCN likely needs to secure high-resolution bathymetric and ice-draft mapping data prior to each and any deployment to help mitigate inertial navigation (INS) drift without GPS. Additionally, submariner crews probably need to obtain operational experience using upward-looking sonar profiles to accurately read ice drafts, identify deep pressure ridge keels (downward-projecting masses of ice), so to navigate safely beneath the ice canopy and to identify locations where a periscope can be safely raised.

Obviously speculation by me - and some of this is very far in the future. Some thou (such as equipment needed) affect the RCN today, as the final negotiations for the Type-212CD submarine's detailed equipment takes place this year.
 
Another aspect (which frankly I fear is less likely to happen) is the dynamic to improve the fidelity of charts of the North West passage so to help the RCN.

I believe the Canadian Hydrographic Service (CHS), an organization housed within Fisheries and Oceans Canada (DFO) is the official national authority responsible for conducting hydrographic surveys, mapping the seabed, and producing official nautical charts and publications for all of Canada's coastal and inland waters, including the Arctic. I also believe that the Canadian Coast Guard plays an important supporting role where I suspect CHS hydrographers frequently conduct their survey operations by embarking on Canadian Coast Guard icebreakers and research vessels.

With global warming, the speculation is that the Northwest Passage may be opening up more, and hence I speculate that the Canadian Hydrographic Service may be interested in improving the charts of the Northwest Passage, primarily for commercial marine safety, civilian traffic corridors, and environmental monitoring. Likely creating more detailed charts for more deep-water Arctic trenches or narrow sub-surface choke points, that are potentially of interest primarily to submarines is very very low on CHS hydrographers priority list.

Given the Coast Guard on occasion provides ships to CHS to aid in the hydrogrphic chart updates, and given the Coast Guard is now under the Department of National Defence, I wonder if there is a potential CHS desire to update North West Passage charts , that the Coast Guard could say to CHS "We will provide the icebreaker and logistics support you need for North West Passage chart updates, but that means your survey tracks ALSO need to cover potential sub-surface transit corridors and not just confine your charting fidelity to commercial shipping lanes".

Given such charting efforts can take even more than a decade, this actually is also likely something that should be considered sooner, rather than later - ideally with improved charts available in the mid-2030s. Its less than a decade before the first four type-212CD submarines are expected to be operational.

I also speculate that once CHS obtains higher quality Arctic charts, the information obtained may be useful for RCN to trade with USN/RN for their high quality charts (if any).

Clearly this is 100% speculation by me ( I can't overstate how much speculation there is in that) - but I note it is a MASSIVE long lead item. Hydrographic charting takes many years to conduct, so its better to start sooner rather than later.
 
Um. Observation.

The RCN has a group called "Route Survey" who retain high quality Klein tow-fish side-scan SONAR systems that are capable of generating high accuracy bathymetry.

This group sailed somewhat regularly on MCDVs, and would focus on Q-Route surveys (harbour entrances mostly) to do comparison updates and such.

I suspect that with the AOPS having some ice capability, they may find themselves with an in-house RCN capability to conduct some under-ice surveys to help generate updated charts.

With newer semi or fully autonomous UUVs, they may be able to do stand-off surveys from the edge of the ice even.

That may help submarines with their under-ice navigation a lot.

Also - they accuracy capability of modern RLGNs (Ring Laser Gyro Navigators) has come a long way since the old MK.29 we had originally on the CPF's. The MK 49 on the Frigates is pretty darn good.

What they may have nowadays...? I'm sure it's even better with the following generations (MK 49 is 25+ years old)

NS
 
I recall reading that during HMCS Chicoutimi's delivery transit from Scotland to Canada in October 2004, seawater entered the submarine through an open hatch in heavy seas, causing electrical arcing and short-circuits that ignited cable insulation and panels. The resulting fires were extinguished by the Canadian crew using portable fire extinguishers and fixed firefighting equipment amidst dense, toxic smoke. The submarine thou, was left dead in the water and drifting without main propulsion. My understanding is that eventually the submarine was secured by Royal Navy and Irish vessels and subsequently taken under tow back across the Atlantic to the UK.

This has me thinking of the dangers of accidents in the Arctic and the potential need of the RCN for distant support in the Arctic, if Type-212CD submarines were to be deployed there. I note that on 21 March 2007, the Royal Navy Trafalgar-class nuclear-powered submarine HMS Tireless suffered an internal explosion that resulted in two fatalities while operating beneath the Arctic ice north of Alaska during a joint UK–US military exercise. The accident occurred during a routine training evolution involving the activation of a backup Self-Contained Oxygen Generator (SCOG). As a chemical oxygen candle was ignited, an explosion occurred in the forward compartment, killing two Operator Mechanics and seriously injuring a third. Subsequent investigations, including the Royal Navy Board of Inquiry, concluded that the explosion was caused by hydrocarbon (oil) contamination inside the oxygen canister, which acted as an immediate fuel source in the oxygen-rich environment.

Following the explosion, the RCN crew responded to extensive smoke and damage-control challenges while operating in the demanding under-ice environment. HMS Tireless subsequently surfaced through the Arctic ice to ventilate the submarine, restore communications, and facilitate medical assistance. A US military helicopter operating from Alaska evacuated the injured RN submariner to a hospital in Anchorage for treatment.

The accident exposed critical safety, storage, handling, and quality-control vulnerabilities associated with auxiliary life-support equipment operating in remote Arctic conditions. It has since become an important case study demonstrating the narrow margins for error during under-ice submarine operations, where emergency response options are inherently limited.

For Canada, the incident illustrates that IF the Royal Canadian Navy eventually conducts routine Type-212CD under-ice operations, rapid Arctic emergency support—including medical evacuation, aviation assets, and reliable communications—would be an important operational consideration. Whether that capability is best provided through permanent northern installations, forward operating locations, allied cooperation, or future mobile support platforms (such as a mobile Canadian Arctic base) warrants further examination. i think that incident also underscores the value of continued navy-to-navy engagement with the United Kingdom and, the United States who are experienced under-ice operators, so to incorporate lessons learned from previous Arctic submarine incidents into Canadian doctrine, training, contingency planning, and emergency procedures.

Again, we have lots of time to do such in regards to submarine operating procedures - but procuring a mobile base ship, or modifying infrastructure in north Arctic airfields will require long lead time.
 
Um. Observation.

The RCN has a group called "Route Survey" who retain high quality Klein tow-fish side-scan SONAR systems that are capable of generating high accuracy bathymetry.

This group sailed somewhat regularly on MCDVs, and would focus on Q-Route surveys (harbour entrances mostly) to do comparison updates and such.

I suspect that with the AOPS having some ice capability, they may find themselves with an in-house RCN capability to conduct some under-ice surveys to help generate updated charts.

With newer semi or fully autonomous UUVs, they may be able to do stand-off surveys from the edge of the ice even.

That may help submarines with their under-ice navigation a lot.

Also - they accuracy capability of modern RLGNs (Ring Laser Gyro Navigators) has come a long way since the old MK.29 we had originally on the CPF's. The MK 49 on the Frigates is pretty darn good.

What they may have nowadays...? I'm sure it's even better with the following generations (MK 49 is 25+ years old)

NS
The Kingston Class had a multibeam echo sounder fit they have used in the Arctic for surveying.
 
I recall reading that during HMCS Chicoutimi's delivery transit from Scotland to Canada in October 2004, seawater entered the submarine through an open hatch in heavy seas, causing electrical arcing and short-circuits that ignited cable insulation and panels. The resulting fires were extinguished by the Canadian crew using portable fire extinguishers and fixed firefighting equipment amidst dense, toxic smoke. The submarine thou, was left dead in the water and drifting without main propulsion. My understanding is that eventually the submarine was secured by Royal Navy and Irish vessels and subsequently taken under tow back across the Atlantic to the UK.

This has me thinking of the dangers of accidents in the Arctic and the potential need of the RCN for distant support in the Arctic, if Type-212CD submarines were to be deployed there. I note that on 21 March 2007, the Royal Navy Trafalgar-class nuclear-powered submarine HMS Tireless suffered an internal explosion that resulted in two fatalities while operating beneath the Arctic ice north of Alaska during a joint UK–US military exercise. The accident occurred during a routine training evolution involving the activation of a backup Self-Contained Oxygen Generator (SCOG). As a chemical oxygen candle was ignited, an explosion occurred in the forward compartment, killing two Operator Mechanics and seriously injuring a third. Subsequent investigations, including the Royal Navy Board of Inquiry, concluded that the explosion was caused by hydrocarbon (oil) contamination inside the oxygen canister, which acted as an immediate fuel source in the oxygen-rich environment.

Following the explosion, the RCN crew responded to extensive smoke and damage-control challenges while operating in the demanding under-ice environment. HMS Tireless subsequently surfaced through the Arctic ice to ventilate the submarine, restore communications, and facilitate medical assistance. A US military helicopter operating from Alaska evacuated the injured RN submariner to a hospital in Anchorage for treatment.

The accident exposed critical safety, storage, handling, and quality-control vulnerabilities associated with auxiliary life-support equipment operating in remote Arctic conditions. It has since become an important case study demonstrating the narrow margins for error during under-ice submarine operations, where emergency response options are inherently limited.

For Canada, the incident illustrates that IF the Royal Canadian Navy eventually conducts routine Type-212CD under-ice operations, rapid Arctic emergency support—including medical evacuation, aviation assets, and reliable communications—would be an important operational consideration. Whether that capability is best provided through permanent northern installations, forward operating locations, allied cooperation, or future mobile support platforms (such as a mobile Canadian Arctic base) warrants further examination. i think that incident also underscores the value of continued navy-to-navy engagement with the United Kingdom and, the United States who are experienced under-ice operators, so to incorporate lessons learned from previous Arctic submarine incidents into Canadian doctrine, training, contingency planning, and emergency procedures.

Again, we have lots of time to do such in regards to submarine operating procedures - but procuring a mobile base ship, or modifying infrastructure in north Arctic airfields will require long lead time.
Future Canadian submarine operations in the Arctic will require extensive contingency planning. However, neither the HMCS Chicoutimi fire nor the HMS Tireless accident automatically establishes a requirement for a dedicated mobile Arctic base ship. Both incidents also demonstrate the value of leveraging cooperation with our allies.

HMCS Chicoutimi was on the surface northwest of Ireland when seawater entered the submarine during heavy weather, causing electrical failures and fires that left the boat without propulsion. The Canadian crew fought the fires, while British and Irish assets provided medical, maritime and towing assistance. Chicoutimi was eventually returned to Faslane rather than being towed across the Atlantic to Canada.

In the case of HMS Tireless, it was a Royal Navy crew, not an RCN crew, that responded to the 2007 oxygen generator explosion. The submarine surfaced through the Arctic ice, after which American aviation evacuated an injured sailor to Alaska. That incident certainly demonstrates the dangers of under ice operations, but it also demonstrates how allied aviation, medical and communications capabilities can be brought together during an Arctic emergency.

The 2024 deployment of the Portuguese submarine NRP Arpão is another useful example, although it should not be overstated. Arpão became the first Portuguese submarine to operate beneath Arctic ice and reportedly spent four days under ice during its deployment. It was a remarkable achievement for a conventional AIP submarine.

However, what ArpĆ£o accomplished was still a far cry from conducting a prolonged patrol beneath the central Arctic ice cap. Its operating area progressed from open water into the Marginal Ice Zone and then beneath the ice shelf. The crew carefully mapped polynyas and other potential openings that could be used to raise a periscope or surface, and the deployment was supported by current ice charts, American ice specialists, Denmark’s Joint Arctic Command and a Danish Arctic patrol vessel.

That does not diminish the Portuguese achievement. It simply places it in context. Arpão operated around the ice edge and beneath comparatively limited areas of ice where planned surfacing opportunities and access to open water were much closer than they would be during a deep penetration beneath a continuous ice pack. Operating in the MIZ is dangerous and technically demanding, but it is not the same problem as being hundreds of miles beneath the central Arctic ice with no immediate ability to surface.

For Canada, that distinction matters. The most likely initial employment of a conventional Type 212CD would be near the ice edge, in the Marginal Ice Zone and during carefully planned excursions beneath first year ice. It would not begin with lengthy independent patrols beneath the deepest and most continuous parts of the Arctic ice cover.

The support structure should therefore be built around Canadian capabilities integrated with those of the United States, United Kingdom, Norway, Denmark and other NATO partners. The United States and United Kingdom possess decades of under ice submarine experience. Norway will operate the same basic Type 212CD design, while Denmark has extensive Arctic surveillance, aviation and command infrastructure around Greenland.

Cooperation should include participation in allied Arctic exercises, shared under ice procedures, submarine rescue agreements, access to allied medical evacuation and search and rescue assets, interoperable communications, current hydrographic and ice information, and plans for diverting a damaged submarine to the nearest suitable Canadian or allied facility.

Canada will still require improvements to northern airfields, communications, fuel availability, deployable maintenance teams, medical evacuation routes and search and rescue coverage. Existing northern facilities can be upgraded progressively and used alongside allied bases in Alaska and Greenland.

A mobile support ship might eventually be useful for logistics, aviation, communications and coordination, but it should follow an established concept of operations rather than drive it. A surface support ship cannot shadow a submarine conducting covert operations and may itself be hundreds of miles from an accident.

The practical solution is therefore layered: capable submarines and well trained crews, improved Canadian northern infrastructure, deployable support packages, Coast Guard and RCAF assistance, and formal arrangements that leverage the enormous Arctic experience and resources of our allies.

We have time to develop those procedures before the first replacement submarine enters service. That time should be used to train with our allies, learn from operations such as NRP ArpĆ£o’s deployment, clearly understand the difference between MIZ operations and deep under ice patrols, and build a realistic support network rather than jumping immediately to one expensive mobile base solution.
 
The RCN has a group called "Route Survey" who retain high quality Klein tow-fish side-scan SONAR systems that are capable of generating high accuracy bathymetry.

This group sailed somewhat regularly on MCDVs, and would focus on Q-Route surveys (harbour entrances mostly) to do comparison updates and such.

NavyShooter / Stoker ... that was interesting.

So I dug into this a bit and learned (albeit I could have this wrong) ... The Route Survey System Life Extension (RSSLE) for the Royal Canadian Navy's Kingston-class Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels (MCDVS) integrated the ISE Aurora active variable-depth towfish, serving as the sensor deployment platform, with the Klein S5900 high-resolution multibeam side-scan sonar (supplied through MDA Canada), including optional interferometric swath bathymetry capability.

Purportedly this modernization replaced a legacy AN/SQS-511 route survey sonar - while retaining the existing route survey launch, recovery, and handling architecture. The results were purportedly significantly improving seabed mapping and mine-like object detection performance.

Further the Klein S5900 natively records and exports data in an industry-standard XTF (Extended Triton Format) and Klein SDF (Sonar Data Format), both of which are widely supported by hydrographic processing software capable of producing datasets suitable for Canadian Hydrographic Service (CHS).

I further read the Canadian Coast Guard ships typically have different equipment (permanent, hull-mounted or specially engineered retractable multibeam echosounder transducers) .

I can not vouch for the accuracy of any of this first hand as I retired many decades ago, but that is what I found from some digging on the web.

I suspect that with the AOPS having some ice capability, they may find themselves with an in-house RCN capability to conduct some under-ice surveys to help generate updated charts.

I like that idea.

The RCN has about 9 years if they wish to improve their charts of the Arctic to a higher fidelity than what they have now , if they wish something in place for when the first 4 or so Type-212CDs become operational.

I would love to be a 'fly on the wall' listening to any RCN discussions on this topic.

Exciting and interesting times for the RCN, if they do get significantly more serious and involved for more naval participation in northern sovereignty
 
We have time to develop those procedures before the first replacement submarine enters service. That time should be used to train with our allies, learn from operations such as NRP ArpĆ£o’s deployment, clearly understand the difference between MIZ operations and deep under ice patrols, and build a realistic support network rather than jumping immediately to one expensive mobile base solution.

I agree. I hope the RCN can find the personnel to start this planning - and if/as required identify any long lead activities and potential procurement. This, I believe, is a massive challenge given the current shortages the RCN is trying to overcome.

The mobile base 'solution' is a bigger kettle of fish, I suspect. It arose, in part, I believe, when the RCN efforts to create a more permanent naval 'replenishment' base in the Arctic, was proven to be too costly. I suspect a 'mobile base' solution may evolve on its own, and the RCN 'powers that be' will need to make the assessment whether they tie a 'submarine tender' functionality into it.

With regards to northern Arctic airfields, there are a half or dozen or so in the north (not directly on any coast), where presumably a helicopter could fly from such to the closest ice-free arctic waters (in summer months) where a mobile base ship is located. And a mobile base ship could move around as appropriate, ice conditions permit, to help enable current operations with such airfields. Possibly the RCAF may also have interest in northern airfields and their support infrastructure.

I wonder how far the RCN will go on this topic. Spending $100 billion over the lifetime for the Type-212CD submarines does suggest to me the RCN will take a hard look as to what they wish to do up in the Arctic north if a decision is made to send submarines up north.
 
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The 2024 deployment of the Portuguese submarine NRP Arpão is another useful example, although it should not be overstated. Arpão became the first Portuguese submarine to operate beneath Arctic ice and reportedly spent four days under ice during its deployment. It was a remarkable achievement for a conventional AIP submarine.

However, what ArpĆ£o accomplished was still a far cry from conducting a prolonged patrol beneath the central Arctic ice cap. Its operating area progressed from open water into the Marginal Ice Zone and then beneath the ice shelf. The crew carefully mapped polynyas and other potential openings that could be used to raise a periscope or surface, and the deployment was supported by current ice charts, American ice specialists, Denmark’s Joint Arctic Command and a Danish Arctic patrol vessel.

That does not diminish the Portuguese achievement. It simply places it in context. Arpão operated around the ice edge and beneath comparatively limited areas of ice where planned surfacing opportunities and access to open water were much closer than they would be during a deep penetration beneath a continuous ice pack. Operating in the MIZ is dangerous and technically demanding, but it is not the same problem as being hundreds of miles beneath the central Arctic ice with no immediate ability to surface.

For Canada, that distinction matters. The most likely initial employment of a conventional Type 212CD would be near the ice edge, in the Marginal Ice Zone and during carefully planned excursions beneath first year ice. It would not begin with lengthy independent patrols beneath the deepest and most continuous parts of the Arctic ice cover.

I agree. Although perhaps I go a step further, and I speculate that the AIP/lithium battery of the Type-212CD will be a significant advance over the AIP/lead-acid propulsion of the NRP Arpão. This in turn could mean significantly more operation possible under the ice than the NRP Arpão's 'touching their toe in the ice water to feel the temperature' 4-day challenging approach.

I speculate a LOT more could be done, with Type-212CD, if the RCN wishes to investigate the possibility.

The RCN could also just turn their back on going deeper into the North West passage, and say forget it, nuclear propulsion submarines only under ice in that area - and only put Type-212CD in the approaches to the Arctic.

But after committing up to $100 billion on a submarine program, I speculate the RCN will take a hard look at going deeper than where the NRP Arpão went. The NRP Arpão was just an initial successful proof of concept. One can stop there.... or one can go further.
 
There is quite a few Canadian companies that can be used to chart the Arctic to a higher degree and there are efforts ongoing to improve that knowledge. However I doubt much of the focus is on where our new subs will operate and more on ensuring commercial and surface naval traffic can navigate safely. We are far behind on knowing our own backyard thanks to the fine Canadian tradition of procrastination and being too cheap.

Ocean Infinity Armada vessels are designed to operate with only 16 people onboard, perhaps one or two vessels based on their design can be acquired to help Canada/RCN/CCG fulfil that requirement?
 
I agree. Although perhaps I go a step further, and I speculate that the AIP/lithium battery of the Type-212CD will be a significant advance over the AIP/lead-acid propulsion of the NRP Arpão. This in turn could mean significantly more operation possible under the ice than the NRP Arpão's 'touching their toe in the ice water to feel the temperature' 4-day challenging approach.

I speculate a LOT more could be done, with Type-212CD, if the RCN wishes to investigate the possibility.

The RCN could also just turn their back on going deeper into the North West passage, and say forget it, nuclear propulsion submarines only under ice in that area - and only put Type-212CD in the approaches to the Arctic.

But after committing up to $100 billion on a submarine program, I speculate the RCN will take a hard look at going deeper than where the NRP Arpão went. The NRP Arpão was just an initial successful proof of concept. One can stop there.... or one can go further.
We've had Arctic deployments of submarines in the past, reportably including forays under the ice. Rest assured the RCN will do everything in a slow dilliberate manner with max safety. Keep in mind that it is a conventional submarine that do not have the power to surface through the ice like a nuke. I would think its safe to say, MIZ, ice edge will be the main zones of concern. I doubt we'll be transiting the NW passage submerged. The Arctic is just one area we'll be using these boats.
 
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