TKMS Type 212CD (Victoria class replacement megathread)

[YZT580]

I understand that argument.
Now apply that to the age of the 6 AOPS by the time the last 2 Rivers come off the production line? What will the ange of HDW be? Are we not right back where we started from in continuing to run ships past the natural lifespan?

With just the two categories one a year would provide the last River around 2040 by which time all the AOPS would be due for replacement and the first of the Rivers would be leaving its final mid-life. A little hurry-up wouldn't really hurt all that much and historically, you cannot expect to make it even to 2040 without needing them for real. IMHO

 

[Underway]

Which Canada now has the honours of receiving a number of early production boats which we need to replace our own aging submarines, with all of their quibbles and issues intact. The Germans and Norwegians get to sit back while we beta test the design, a design which isn't even operational as of the signing of this agreement. There is incredibly minimal room for error in this proposal from the Europeans, I expect multiple things to do wrong and the media to jump on this given how high profile it is/how sensitive of an issue submarines are in this country.

Call me a skeptic but I don't trust the Germans on this, they've shown their failings as much as they've shown their competency with past and ongoing procurements.

You're overstating things. Norway and Germany will still be getting the first of class submarines. Norway's current slots of 2029, 30 33, 35. Germany's are 31, 34. The Weir facility will be running at full capacity by 29 (400 staff are undergoing training right now). I find it likely that we'll get a 31, 34 build (which will be extra production lines). How this sched is rearranged I'm not sure.

29, 30, 31, 33, 34,35 is the drumbeat. Expectation is that 33 and 34 will be the first two "new addition" Canadian submarines (so 7-8 years from now). So under the new arrangement we'll have to see how they reorganize the deliveries. Could be any order at this point. I suspect Norway will get the first submarine either way.

As for TKMS failings in submarine production? The company which has successfully delivered about 40 submarines in the last 40 years is having submarine building problems? They aren't. I can't find anything that says their submarines are having QC or build issues.

They had issues with the F125 but that's a surface fleet issue. And its one project. Their MEKO is an extremely successful design which has been delivered multiple times to countries around the world (different variants). They were selected to take back building ships away from Damien which were working on the F126 project.

 

[Infanteer]

Interesting take by some:

Canada doesn't get new equipment: The government sucks and our military sucks and the stuff we have sucks.

Canada gets brand new equipment: The government sucks and our military sucks and the stuff we will get sucks.

 

[Underway]

How 'colonial' of you.

The GBA+ police should be along before 'soup' this morning

'Geronimo' Codename In Bin Laden Raid Offends Native American Groups

Native American groups are furious that the term, "Geronimo," was used during the raid against Osama bin Laden. They say linking the legendary Apache warrior with the world's most vilified terrorist is disrespectful.

www.wbur.org

Won't be tribal names. But not because of GBA+ (which is a project management process honestly and not a naming process), its more complicated then that. Has a lot to do with a lot of those names being "language groups" and not actual tribes etc...

@FSTO could explain better.

From the RCD naming committee (if they just ran it back) the top contenders would be

• inspirational class, names like Courageous, or sumsuch
• provincial class, self explanatory

The use of historical figures was highly discouraged by some committee members as your just inviting issues.

The old RCN ship naming documentation encourages submarines to be named after fish, like HMCS Grisle which was a submarine we owned. Other tradition ship naming options are:

• islands
• bays
• cities

How many Rivers concurrently will Irving have the ability to work on?

Two - Three. Depending on how you define "work on". One inside, one outside and one in the water. More if you consider "work on" to include things like design and supply management.

 

[Underway]

Interesting take by some:

Canada doesn't get new equipment: The government sucks and our military sucks and the stuff we have sucks.

Canada gets brand new equipment: The government sucks and our military sucks and the stuff we will get sucks.

I know. It's weird. I think that a lot of this is reflexive because we normally don't get nice things. So anything nice we do get people are suspicious about. Also a lot of back seat project and contract experts here (myself included), who are missing a lot of information.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Two - Three. Depending on how you define "work on". One inside, one outside and one in the water. More if you consider "work on" to include things like design and supply management.

Its good but its not where TKMS will be with 8+ boats being worked on at 2 locations.

IF TKMS is able to get Wismar at the same level of rate of production as Kiel, they will deliver to us 12 boats before we have 12 Rivers commissioned. That is something that they should be proud of, if they can of course pull it off.

If the RCN going forward is to have 40ish combat/support ships ((AOPS (6), JSS (2-4), Destroyers (15) , Light Frigates (12-20), a total ranging from 35-45 ships)), excluding the Subs, I don't see how Seaspan and Irving can continue to be the only 2 locations where combat/support ships are built.

 

[oldcpu]

How 'colonial' of you.

The GBA+ police should be along before 'soup' this morning

'Geronimo' Codename In Bin Laden Raid Offends Native American Groups

Native American groups are furious that the term, "Geronimo," was used during the raid against Osama bin Laden. They say linking the legendary Apache warrior with the world's most vilified terrorist is disrespectful.

www.wbur.org

The Royal Canadian Navy's approach for use of native Canadian names is historically rooted in a tradition of deep respect, dating back to the wartime Tribal-class destroyers and the post-war Ojibwa, Onondaga, and Okanagan submarines. In Commonwealth naval tradition, naming a class of warships after a nation or people or using native names of geography, is considered an exceptional honor meant to project their identity, strength, and legacy onto the global stage alongside the country's major cities and historical figures.

Far from being a colonial appropriation, it is intended to be an intentional recognition of Indigenous Nations as founding partners in Canada’s history, sovereignty, and ongoing national defense.

Like many things in life, I guess those with different backgrounds can view things differently.