TKMS Type 212CD (Victoria class replacement megathread)

[Navy_Pete]

The funny thing about all of this is the now VCDS specifically told the major program doing northern infra that the RCN doesn't want any support equipment for the NOSH sites. The CCG has a laundry list of things that we could also use, but absolutely does not include the H2 and LOx required for the AIP.

So the GoC may build a few major northern hubs to sustain military operations in the Arctic, including things like diesel and aviation fuel deports, large jetties, repair depots etc but if the new subs need to refill their AIP after doing some northern ops they would need to go back to home port.

That's not something you can just drop a few tanks and call it a day, and the quanties needed aren't what you can chuck on a grey tail or whatever, so waiting for an about face

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I suspect after a few years of arctic patrols the issue will resurface and solutions will depend on whether the defence budget is healthy or strained.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Interesting read.

I've not read on this forum about this stated need re subs previously. Those closer to this, does this article hold water?

Navy’s own studies say Canada needs 22 submarines, not 12

Canada is buying 12 submarines. The navy’s own analysis says it needs 22.

www.vanguarddefence.ca

Navy’s own studies say Canada needs 22 submarines, not 12​

Canada is buying 12 submarines. The navy’s own analysis says it needs 22.

Rear Admiral Jason Armstrong made the admission Tuesday in his keynote at Vanguard Defence’s Deep Blue conference, the first major gathering of the submarine community since TKMS was named preferred supplier for the Canadian Patrol Submarine Project. The original Victoria-class requirement was six boats to cover one ocean, he noted.
“All their numbers say that it should be 22,” Armstrong said of navy studies.

THE CREW GAP​

Armstrong said the submarine force must grow from about 260 sailors today to roughly 1,200. The navy plans to build that force alongside the German and Norwegian navies. It is also working with British Columbia and Nova Scotia on college and university programs for the maintenance workforce.
“Not all the boats are going to arrive in the first day,” he said. “We have time to grow that force.”

 

[Halifax Tar]

Interesting read.

I've not read on this forum about this stated need re subs previously. Those closer to this, does this article hold water?

Navy’s own studies say Canada needs 22 submarines, not 12

Canada is buying 12 submarines. The navy’s own analysis says it needs 22.

www.vanguarddefence.ca

Navy’s own studies say Canada needs 22 submarines, not 12​

Canada is buying 12 submarines. The navy’s own analysis says it needs 22.

Rear Admiral Jason Armstrong made the admission Tuesday in his keynote at Vanguard Defence’s Deep Blue conference, the first major gathering of the submarine community since TKMS was named preferred supplier for the Canadian Patrol Submarine Project. The original Victoria-class requirement was six boats to cover one ocean, he noted.
“All their numbers say that it should be 22,” Armstrong said of navy studies.

THE CREW GAP​

Armstrong said the submarine force must grow from about 260 sailors today to roughly 1,200. The navy plans to build that force alongside the German and Norwegian navies. It is also working with British Columbia and Nova Scotia on college and university programs for the maintenance workforce.
“Not all the boats are going to arrive in the first day,” he said. “We have time to grow that force.”

Reach for the the moon they say...

 

[Czech_pivo]

Reach for the the moon they say...

Just as long as your wings of wax don't melt I guess.....

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Trying to make sure they get more than 6

 

[Czech_pivo]

Trying to make sure they get more than 6

So does that mean the River Class 'ask' numbers should be like 42?

 

[Halifax Tar]

So does that mean the River Class 'ask' numbers should be like 42?

The numbers provided are dreamy, and fully unrealistic, but closer to what we actually need...

 

[Czech_pivo]

The numbers provided are dreamy, and fully unrealistic, but closer to what we actually need...

Picking a random number from a hat, 18 Rivers and 15 CDC’s, with our dozen or even bakers dozen, of subs would be a nice robust tip of the spear. But I’m just ransoming picking some numbers.

Edit:
I like the idea of 3 Rivers available on each coast at any given time.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Picking a random number from a hat, 18 Rivers and 15 CDC’s, with our dozen or even bakers dozen, of subs would be a nice robust tip of the spear. But I’m just ransoming picking some numbers.

Really, what we should be doing is continuously building successive flights of ships.

For example, the first CDC class could remain in service for 20-25 years before being sold, repurposed, or recycled as the next, more modern flight enters service.

This approach would create a continuous renewal cycle, allowing the fleet to evolve incrementally rather than requiring large-scale recapitalization efforts every few decades.

 

[YZT580]

Really, what we should be doing is continuously building successive flights of ships.

For example, the first CDC class could remain in service for 20-25 years before being sold, repurposed, or recycled as the next, more modern flight enters service.

This approach would create a continuous renewal cycle, allowing the fleet to evolve incrementally rather than requiring large-scale recapitalization efforts every few decades.

as in maybe a standing budgeted order for 1 every year or every 18 months with no defined limit?

 

[Halifax Tar]

as in maybe a standing budgeted order for 1 every year or every 18 months with no defined limit?

Yup.

Continuous shipbuilding and continuous improvement should be the goal.

This approach would keep the fleet modern, capable, and in good material condition. It would also sustain the industrial and technical expertise required to design, build, maintain, and support these vessels, while providing a strong foundation for rapid expansion should operational demands increase in the future.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Yup.

Continuous shipbuilding and continuous improvement should be the goal.

This approach would keep the fleet modern, capable, and in good material condition. It would also sustain the industrial and technical expertise required to design, build, maintain, and support these vessels, while providing a strong foundation for rapid expansion should operational demands increase in the future.

If we went down this road, would we be in a possible position to 'sell off' these ships at the 20-25yr mark to friendly navy's like Chile's? If so, this makes alot of sense as will would strengthen our relations with 'like minded' countries and entice them into buying CDN system's like the CMS330 that Chile already has bought into.

 

[Halifax Tar]

If we went down this road, would we be in a possible position to 'sell off' these ships at the 20-25yr mark to friendly navy's like Chile's? If so, this makes alot of sense as will would strengthen our relations with 'like minded' countries and entice them into buying CDN system's like the CMS330 that Chile already has bought into.

Exactly!

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Yup.

Continuous shipbuilding and continuous improvement should be the goal.

This approach would keep the fleet modern, capable, and in good material condition. It would also sustain the industrial and technical expertise required to design, build, maintain, and support these vessels, while providing a strong foundation for rapid expansion should operational demands increase in the future.

Stop, you giving me a woody....

 

[MacNav63]

Just as long as your wings of wax don't melt I guess.....

Shouldn't be a problem if you're reaching for the moon. Now if it's the sun on the other hand...

 

[Czech_pivo]

Stop, you giving me a woody....

You watching Toy Story?

Shouldn't be a problem if you're reaching for the moon. Now if it's the sun on the other hand...

I see what you did there.....

 

[childs56]

It is funny, lots of dreams about sustainment of our Naval expertise for years into the future.
The Halifax Ship program was suppose to be a pillar of Naval Architecture and future programs skills taking Canada Naval ship building to a whole new level into the next decades. To provide ships to our Allies. It did not happen, we were left gasping for replacement program for many years.
Lets hope the shortsightedness of the past is falling away for a long term future of Naval Ship Building in Canada for us and our allies.

 

[Czech_pivo]

It is funny, lots of dreams about sustainment of our Naval expertise for years into the future.
The Halifax Ship program was suppose to be a pillar of Naval Architecture and future programs skills taking Canada Naval ship building to a whole new level into the next decades. To provide ships to our Allies. It did not happen, we were left gasping for replacement program for many years.
Lets hope the shortsightedness of the past is falling away for a long term future of Naval Ship Building in Canada for us and our allies.

Maybe the work that Carney is laying with the UAE might translate into the selling of some ships or systems in the future.

 

[Underway]

22 subs eh?

I see how that makes sense. Japan has a 20ish sub navy. We have a much larger marine area, especially if we have diesel submarines.