TV vs Chest rigs

[Armymedic]

I have looked, so if anyone wants to tell me to do a seach, they can kiss my white, chair flattened butt... ;D

I have found numerous post about why the current issued TV is not all that great for everyone. And I found several posts joyously caroling chest rigs (i.e. Chest rig porn).

But are Chest rigs better then Tactical vests? Are they better then the old style webbing we used to use? I tried on a Marine's chest rig in the 'ghan, with his 8 mags, and found the wieght low infront of my slightly protruding Molson muscle a bit uncomfortable. 

As I have such a limited exposure to chest rigs, why are they better, if they are at all?

 

[Britney Spears]

This seems to be fairly straight forward to me, and I'm not a chest rig porn star by any stretch of the imagination.  Wearing loads on the chest puts all the wieght on your shoulders, as opposed to your hips, which is where you have it when you have webbing. Good thing is that it does not interfere with rucksacks and vehicle seats like webbing does. Bad thing is that it generally cannot carry as much as webbing, is hotter and constricting to the chest,  and going prone with it is dicey. Also, I personally find having my loads on the hip much more comfortable than loads on the shoulders and chest, but I just have child bearing hips.

But what about the vest, you ask? Well, the vest places the load on the shoulders, just like a chest rig. A good vest (not ours) will also have a belt at the bottom, to put some of the weight onto your hips and stop your pouches from ending up under your armpits when you run. Because of this problem, I actually find the TV to be more comfortable when over armour than without, just as long as you don't go prone. 

During a previous tacvest thread, Matt Fisher brought up the point that with modern armour, many of the advantages of webbing are negated. Over armour, webbing also puts the load uncomfortably on your shoulders, does not allow you to stay any cooler, and is actually less accesible, since you can't really reach very far around your back to open up that buttback. This, I think, would explain why chest rigs are enjoying a resurgence in popularity. 


BTW are you guys all wearing brown T-shirts now?

 

[BITTER PPLCI CPL]

I know we'd never do it, but it probably explains why a lot of SF and PMC's(not all) are only wearing plate carrier's. And with the body armour, that is why I like chest rigs, but it does pose a problem when going prone.

 

[Patroels]

Here's what I wrote at the Geardo.com -forum:

"A modular vest would be my choice anytime.
Being able to keep the shoulder/chest area clear for 3. line equipment would still leave an area big enough for whatever you'd normally carry on a chest-thingie. Please excuse my nit-picking here, but let's face it: When was the last time you saw someone actually carrying their chest-rig on their chest ? It is carried on the stomach, and nothing's wrong about that -ergonomically speaking-. But as a Homeguards-man, vehicles are a luxury and my feet are the only transportion devices I'm sure to have. Thus allowing me to carry items on my lower back, where most chest-rigs can't reach."

I would like to add two things because of the previous answers already written here:
1. Denmark's Homeguard aren't issued armour of any sort, so I have zero experience there.
2. In our patrol duty, everything but the kitchensink is carried in our bergen. And from what I've heard from those who've tried chestrigs, they are not ergonomically correct once the bergens are cached prior to close target recce, assault or whatever. Even the Arnold Schwartsenburger -sized men will complain over the sudden pain or discomfort in the lower back.

Regards
Troels

P.S. By "lower back" I do mean lower back, not the area further down ;D

 

[DG-41]

I found that the old-style webbing was much more comfortable worn over armour than without. The armour being stiff meant you could really cinch down on the webbing, and it wouldn't flop around so bad when running.

I've yet to try the tac vest, so I'll see what that's like once it is issued.

DG

 

[mudgunner49]

OK team, here's my take.  I am an unrepentant fan of chest rigs and am utterly opposed to the TV for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it is totally non- adaptable (is that a word?) and therefore unnecessarily limits users to working within some very limited parameters (C6/C9 gunners, grenadier, 84mm dude, etc).

I think at the bottom of this whole fiasco is the long-held belief that we have to be ready to live for extended periods of time out of our webbing/LBV/LCE, when in fact we are almost always vehicle borne to a certain extent and when footborne we have an assault pack or rucksack for sustainment kit.  What we should really be cocerned about WRT webbing of any nature is fighting kit (ammo, water, basic trauma/GSW stuff, grenades, a great big knife if you have fantasies of that sort  :, etc).  Just about everything else can be carried in a small pack/assault pack, or on your person in pockets or on your trouser/riggers belt (Gerber/Leatherman, sheath knife, signal panel, lighter, small notebook and pen/pencil, etc).

To that end I have my chest rigs all set up basically the same, for mags, water, trauma kit and some empty space/pouches for miscellaneous stuff that I may require and had not pre-packed.  I also carry an assault pack almost always, and am never far from my vehicle - another beautiful thing about being in the artillery... If I were not going to be carrying a small pack, I would recommend off-setting the weight up front with a hydration pack of some sort in the back.

I have tried various vests and LCE set-ups and would recommend at least giving the chest rig a try before sh**canning it.  Try to get your hands on a good quality one and don't base your opinion of the concept off of a $49.99 piece of crap.  I would recommend HSGI, SO Tech, Tactical Tailor, Recce Gear, Eagle Industries and TAG to name makers that I have used and had good results from... don't get all bent if I haven't named your favorite brand, these are just the ones that I have personal experience with.

YMMV,

blake

 

[Britney Spears]

I think at the bottom of this whole fiasco is the long-held belief that we have to be ready to live for extended periods of time out of our webbing/LBV/LCE,

Well, the TV solved that problem for us. It is now physically impossible to carry anything other than ammo in our "second line" kit(to use your fancy lightfighter lingo). No more socks or footpowder in the webbing for us....

You know you're on the cutting edge of army transformation when the CSM uses "Tactical Vest" and "Ops 100" in the same sentence, without  a hint of irony.

 

[BITTER PPLCI CPL]

Definately agree with mudgunner in all aspects. When was the last time I lived only out of my TV, ah um, never! And if they (garritroopers) want everything accordingly in the tv, then what is the purpose of the patrol pack! The companies and sites listed too are all awsome!

 

[Armymedic]

OK team, here's my take.  I am an unrepentant fan of chest rigs and am utterly opposed to the TV for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it is totally non- adaptable (is that a word?) and therefore unnecessarily limits users to working within some very limited parameters (C6/C9 gunners, grenadier, 84mm dude, etc).

Mudgunner,
I understand your feeling toward to issued TV, but what of other versions/models of Tactical type vests? How would they chalk up?

 

[mudgunner49]

Mudgunner,
I understand your feeling toward to issued TV, but what of other versions/models of Tactical type vests? How would they chalk up?

Armymedic,

I have tried a number of different vests and my primary gripe with most of them is that they are restrictive, hot and almost always have something on the back (respirator, radio, etc...).  Now I know that we're going to be wearing armour but even with, I find the chest rig more to my liking.  If the vest is modular then people will usually be tempted to be putting stuff on the area of the shoulders and this will interfere with one of two things, pack/rucksack shoulder straps and mounting/shouldering your weapon.  Neither of these is a good thing.

I have tried a couple of modular vests (Tactical Tailor Modular Vest and BHI DOAV Modular version come to mind immediately) and found both to be suitable as long as the urge to cover every inch of the base unit is resisted.  Both of them were still hotter and more restrictive than a chest rig.

You may think that I'm overstating the whole retention of heat thing, but at 6'3" and 240 #, I generate BTU's just standing around, so comfort is of great importance to me...


Fire away, those of you enamored with the issue TV... ;D  :akimbo: ;D

 

[Infanteer]

...and into the fray I offer the current title-holder (as far as LF seems to indicate), the Eagle CIRAS

Body Armour is a third catagory that is worth looking at (I know my pocketbook is hating this one right now.... :blotto

 

[Armymedic]

You may think that I'm overstating the whole retention of heat thing, but at 6'3" and 240 #, I generate BTU's just standing around, so comfort is of great importance to me...

I don't think heat retention is overstated at all. If a piece of kit is uncomfortable, soldiers won't want to wear it.

Body Armour is a third catagory that is worth looking at (I know my pocketbook is hating this one right now.... :blotto

Well, indeed, throw it in as well. I looked enviously at the US Army soldiers I worked with that only had to throw on thier body armour decked out with the Molle pockets for ammo, water and a bit of gear, instead of seperate body armour and Tac Vest.

Is this a solution? Minus the plates, we could train in the gear we fight in.

 

[BITTER PPLCI CPL]

I definitly agree with modular body armor or at least a modular tac-vest. At least the soldier using it can customize the configuration, and Sir give the en-listed personal the benefit of the doubt, we wouldn't put pouches on our shoulder's that would interfere with rucksacks! I'll bet you anything there is a reason why we never went this route and here it is, the old school garrison (not all) brotherhood saw no uniformity. And also, god forbid soldiers are going to think for themselves! Plus it probably wouldn't have been able to be produced in PQ.

​

 

[mudgunner49]

... and Sir give the en-listed personal the benefit of the doubt, we wouldn't put pouches on our shoulder's that would interfere with rucksacks! I'll bet you anything there is a reason why we never went this route and here it is, the old school garrison (not all) brotherhood saw no uniformity. And also, god forbid soldiers are going to think for themselves! Plus it probably wouldn't have been able to be produced in PQ.

​

Bitter One,

I did not mean to imply that the soldiers would do it (though some probably would just to fill all that PALS real estate  :), but someone at some level would direct that "X" will be attached at the left shoulder... and there will be another battle for the Sect Comd/Pl WO to fight about placement (probably with a 2Lt  ...)

Armymedic -  mmmm, CIRAS...


blake

 

[Britney Spears]

You may think that I'm overstating the whole retention of heat thing, but at 6'3" and 240 #, I generate BTU's just standing around, so comfort is of great importance to me...

Well, for our purposes I think you are, because we don't really deploy anywhere without armour anymore, not even Haiti. Having a seperate set of load carrying equipment for wear without armour would be nice, but hey, for that we could just dig up the old webbing, it wasn't great but it worked well enough for that purpose. Our first priority should be operations with armour.

Someday we will each have kitbags like this

<a href=http://lightfighter.net/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/9046084761/m/6851069651>Original thread at lightfighter</a>

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Britney,

"Ooops, you did it again" with all that darn kit porn.

Chest rig or tac-vest, the choice is user preference.   I've used both at one point in time or another.

Chest rig
Pros:   easy access to ammo and other gear, works quite well with a ruck, great for vehicle mounted ops as well as FIBUA/MOUT and patrolling, when worn low the weight is somewhat transferred to the hips, but not as effectively as with conventional webbing.
Cons:   somewhat limited in what you can carry (ammo, pyro/frags, first aid and comm gear pushes carriage to the limit with little room for snivel gear), can be uncomfortable when in the prone, when worn over armor donning and doffing can turn into a 2 man job

Tac-Vest
Pros:   easy access to ammo and other gear, can be good for vehicle ops (provided the back is left free of kit), FIBUA, patrolling, easy on-easy off, modular versions have lots of real-estate to attach stuff to.
Cons:   may not interface with ruck especially well, higher heat retention than webbing/chest rig (moot point if using armor), can have a tendency to 'ride up' in the back if the front of the vest bears all the weight.  All the weight is put on your shoulders.

Right now I'm running a 2-piece Tactical Tailor MAV with assorted pouches which is doing the trick for me, but if I was in the market for another rig, I would probably consider a SO Tech Hellcat, or a custom made hybrid rig similar to an Arktis Norloose with 4 rows of PALS webbing with 9 channels and another 2 rows of PALS with 4 channels, but with Hellcat style internal mag sleeves, but using the TT bungee cord retention.

 

[mudgunner49]

Well, for our purposes I think you are, because we don't really deploy anywhere without armour anymore, not even Haiti. Having a seperate set of load carrying equipment for wear without armour would be nice, but hey, for that we could just dig up the old webbing, it wasn't great but it worked well enough for that purpose. Our first priority should be operations with armour.

Someday we will each have kitbags like this<a href=http://lightfighter.net/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/9046084761/m/6851069651>Original thread at lightfighter</a>

You wish!!!   Dream on... not in this army!!


blake

 

[Britney Spears]

Please, sir, you know how us young troops are always optimists.....

Besides, when we do get something like that, and when I am a CWO(you know, optimism...), just think of all the fun we can have with inspections and pack drill, and all the different kitlists I would make up, "1 x CF Shorts, tan, in pouch # 312, placed in position 321B on the Bravo vest", "Mukluks, in pouch #12, attached to bigger pouch #26, in position 65 on Alpha web belt" ....... 

 

[Andyboy]

Thanks for posting that pic Brit, it illustrates a point I have been waiting to make.

As with every problem there are several solutions, in that pic you see several solutions for the problem of how to organize and carry all of the equipment a soldier needs to do his job. These solutions are generally referred to as Load Carriage Systems and, as with anything the appropriateness of the solution is dependant on several factors. These factors include, but are not limited to, the user, the task, and the budget. Unfortunately for us it has been concluded that one solution for every task and user is appropriate and that solution is the issued TV. The pros and cons of using the TV are apparent to anyone who has ever used one but what has not been acknowledged by the CF is the appropriateness of OTHER solutions.

Just as we have different boots, head wear, clothing, and weapons we should have a variety of load carriage solutions that address the varying tasks and body types. The ability of the CF to react to the needs of the pointy end are apparent enough to anyone honest enough to look beyond the flashy new kit to see it for what it is.

To the original question, I honestly don't think you will get the information you need on this board. That is not a dig at anyone here, to the contrary, the replies you have gotten here have been excellent and generally to the point. The problem is that in the CF there is not a lot of experience with "alternate" load carriage solutions. Indeed there are a lot of members who use aftermarket solutions however how many are medics? How many have real world operational experience as a medic using the kit you are asking about? My advice to you is to seek out someone from your line of work who has operational experience with the kit you are asking about and your best bet of finding that is on another board, Lightfighter.

Again I am not trying to denigrate the replies you have gotten here, I am just suggesting that if you want to know what an appropriate load carriage solution s for a medic, you should probably ask other medics. You will probably find out that there is load carriage kit out there specifically designed for your task rather than an artillery officer, infantry soldier, or other.

Cheers,

Andrew 

 

[Armymedic]

Just as we have different boots, head wear, clothing, and weapons we should have a variety of load carriage solutions that address the varying tasks and body types. The ability of the CF to react to the needs of the pointy end are apparent enough to anyone honest enough to look beyond the flashy new kit to see it for what it is.

To the original question, I honestly don't think you will get the information you need on this board. That is not a dig at anyone here, to the contrary, the replies you have gotten here have been excellent and generally to the point. The problem is that in the CF there is not a lot of experience with "alternate" load carriage solutions. Indeed there are a lot of members who use aftermarket solutions however how many are medics? How many have real world operational experience as a medic using the kit you are asking about? My advice to you is to seek out someone from your line of work who has operational experience with the kit you are asking about and your best bet of finding that is on another board, Lightfighter.

Again I am not trying to denigrate the replies you have gotten here, I am just suggesting that if you want to know what an appropriate load carriage solution s for a medic, you should probably ask other medics. You will probably find out that there is load carriage kit out there specifically designed for your task rather than an artillery officer, infantry soldier, or other.

Good post,
I ask these questions not for my own info but to stimulate a discussion which really has not yet happened on this board.
As an experienced medic, I know that one solution does not work for every senario. That goes equally for the kit we carry. What I prefer to use, may not be someone elses favorite.

But for the TV, I wear it because it is what I am issued and am told to wear.