Czech_pivo
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100%
Time to walk the walk and no longer talk the talk.
U.S. Annexing Canada (split fm Liberal Minority thread)
- Thread starter Lumber
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Time to walk the walk and no longer talk the talk.
No it’s pragmatic. The us is not afraid to tell us what we can or cannot do with their kit we buy. We need to get off that.
Do what we have to for our North America commitment and everything else can be looked at elsewhere. Preferably via our own industry but other more reliable and willing partners.
Rearm Europe will in fact re arm Can.
Brad Sallows
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All my adult life Canada and the US have had trade friction.
The US is going through a phase which is unlikely to outlast Trump's tenure. Dissatisfied voters have pushed back by electing a president who pushes everything. There are simply too many people who will jettison tariffs at the first opportunity, including - probably - whoever is the next president, no matter what some of them are saying (or not saying) right now just to avoid being passed under the harrow. And I expect tariffs to end much sooner than that, because voters and established interests won't tolerate the fiscal pressure for that long.
Every minute people spend tearing their hair out over Trump's latest ridiculous pronouncement, including repetition of "51st state", is time spent not doing something useful. I saw some talking head on TV going on and on about it as if it actually mattered. Even asking someone to describe how they felt about their missing cat would be preferable. The greatest threat to our sovereignty is our own insecurity about our sovereignty. A confident people would have shrugged this bullshit off long ago. Whenever some politician starts ranting about "51st" state, someone ought to (figuratively) pull his nose or give him a hard slap on the cheek.
The US is going through a phase which is unlikely to outlast Trump's tenure. Dissatisfied voters have pushed back by electing a president who pushes everything. There are simply too many people who will jettison tariffs at the first opportunity, including - probably - whoever is the next president, no matter what some of them are saying (or not saying) right now just to avoid being passed under the harrow. And I expect tariffs to end much sooner than that, because voters and established interests won't tolerate the fiscal pressure for that long.
Every minute people spend tearing their hair out over Trump's latest ridiculous pronouncement, including repetition of "51st state", is time spent not doing something useful. I saw some talking head on TV going on and on about it as if it actually mattered. Even asking someone to describe how they felt about their missing cat would be preferable. The greatest threat to our sovereignty is our own insecurity about our sovereignty. A confident people would have shrugged this bullshit off long ago. Whenever some politician starts ranting about "51st" state, someone ought to (figuratively) pull his nose or give him a hard slap on the cheek.
KevinB
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News flash, anyone who builds military gear (or at least cutting edge military gear is going to have a voice in telling you what you can, or cannot do with it.
ITAR was created here, so all the third world tin pot dictators in the UN could not keep blaming America for wars they started.
You’re going to waiting for hell to freeze over before you find a better partner. Canada has for years gone out of its way to buy shittier gear that isn’t made in the US. Then act smugly about it.
All of the European countries have their own laws and interests, and they don’t always intersect with Canada’s.
Yawn. More likely will enrich Europe and leave Canada playing second fiddle to a manufacturer even further away than the USA, and most likely a worse product…
daftandbarmy
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I'll have you know that Canada doesn't have to buy shitty gear from anyone.
We can make it ourselves, thank you very much
HavokFour
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Took his time to pipe up, I still think he is lacking somewhat in the spine department.
www.telegraph.co.uk
Canada is sovereign, says Starmer in rebuke to Trump
British PM meets Mark Carney ahead of G7 summit in clear show of support
www.telegraph.co.uk
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I guess he couldn't say anything else sitting in the living room of Canada's PM, right?Took his time to pipe up, I still think he is lacking somewhat in the spine department.
Canada is sovereign, says Starmer in rebuke to Trump
British PM meets Mark Carney ahead of G7 summit in clear show of support
Also coming out of the meeting according to Reuters ....
Everything that I know about Starmer would lead me to believe he doesn't actually have a spine at all...Took his time to pipe up, I still think he is lacking somewhat in the spine department.
Canada is sovereign, says Starmer in rebuke to Trump
British PM meets Mark Carney ahead of G7 summit in clear show of support
My response would have been basically what @KevinB posted
If there is one thing that results from US foreign policy, it's armed conflict somewhere - and thus US arms tend to be pretty darn good & cutting edge.
Not to mention well supported - and supported from closer to home than all the way over in Europe.
Even older designs that are still being manufactured tend to be upgraded frequently enough to stay not just relevant, but relevant AND formidable (re Javelin ATGM, various obvious aircraft designs, and even just their basic SMP utility trucks, etc)
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The main issue I have with US arms is the ridiculous price tag that comes with them...
The US military industrial complex absolutely hoses the US military & whoever is allowed to buy their products. (Or so it seems to me, anyway...)
Example - the unit cost of a single Tomahawk is around $2M per copy, double that for export customers.
Or the cost of a single Javelin ATGM hovering I think around $175k to $230k...the prices are absolutely f**king ridiculous.
But as steep as the price tags are, the kit works & it works well. It's reliable, and the customer knows it.
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While it's great to establish new relationships to procure military kit & build one's own arms industry - those relationships already exist and aren't new at all.
We already use G-Wagons, Kingfishers, EH-101's, Polaris (with MRTT's coming online), Spike ER, RBS-70, Carl G, etc etc. Even our LAV's are a license built Swiss design.
So we already buy a fair bit of European kit...
What kit does Europe buy from Canada??
What kit could Europe buy from Canada, anyway?
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This ReArm Europe may be a great opportunity for European arms companies to step up their game, sell some kit they haven't forecasted, and reinvest some of that money into improving some of their products.
And it's great that the EU said we could be included in the whole scheme...
But they gave their approval because it will result in Canada potentially buying kit from them, aka Canadian money leaving Canada for Europe
We literally don't have anything to offer Europe that they don't already manufacture or operate themselves.
PrairieFella
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Euro land kit makes the most sense for diversification. That's realistically the only place we'll be using our army in a LSCO, so tailoring to work in Europe with Europeans makes sense. Some of the best kit in the world comes from Europe, some of it better than American kit, we should leverage that which makes the most sense, like CV90 over Bradley for example but go American when necessary, like F35. My two cents
FJAG
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We need to be careful with European kit vis a vis IP rights. They do not like to see competition nor too much of the work leaving Europe.
Korean kit on the other hand . . . It's certainly good enough quality, costs less, and they're more prepared to work send work offshore.
We're going to need a lot of hardware. We should look for deals even if its not the tipity-top line we constantly look for. I'm a quantities guy.
Korean kit on the other hand . . . It's certainly good enough quality, costs less, and they're more prepared to work send work offshore.
We're going to need a lot of hardware. We should look for deals even if its not the tipity-top line we constantly look for. I'm a quantities guy.
Sorry, you are right...
I tend to think of 'northern European kit' as different than 'mainland European kit' for some reason
Sweden's arms industry is amazing & makes some of the best military gear in the world. Ditto for Norway.
Northern Europe produces some absolutely fantastic kit (Carl G, RBS-70, Visby class corvettes, Gripen fighter jets, NASAMS, Archer, CV-90, etc etc)
I suppose central Europe does also (Caesar SPG, AMX-10 RC, Leopard 2, etc etc)
I was thinking more along the lines of NLAW compared to Javelin, or the seemingly low availability rates & high maintenance requirements of the NH-90 family compared to the Black Hawk family. Or that countries who do have an 'armed reconnaissance helicopter' have mostly gone for or ended up with the Apache over the Tiger. Etc etc
I agree FJAG about S. Korea being a good place for us to be looking to build good relationships. Fantastic kit. Well organized with attractive pricing & good delivery times. And seem quite open to customer countries building their kit under license (which is a huge opportunity for us to expand our own arms industry - which is partially why we joined the ReArm Europe thing in the first place, no?
Canada's participation in the "ReArm Europe" program might warrant it's own thread...
It isn't a 'don't buy American gear' mantra.
But since the focus of that discussion is on expanding our defence relationships with European companies, it may seem that way...
I think 'boycotting' (whether officially or unofficially) American military kit over this short lived ripple of nonsense is pretty silly and short sighted
Nothing wrong with diversifying.
It’s the world we live in now. It does not mean “don’t by American gear”. It means not putting our eggs in one basket.
Expand our diversification with willing partners
Expand and develop our own defense industry
Reduce our reliance on one market (the US)
PrairieFella
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The best supply chain is the most stable one. Unfortunately, American instability isn't going anywhere. Itll outlive the current presidency by probably a decade. Who's to say the current president wouldn't withhold arms after the contract is signed unless he gets a one-sided mineral concession, as an example. American kit is risky right now.
Halifax Tar
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I was the biggest proponent of buy American before you/them went and got all 51st statey on us.
I still think the best option for most things is American, simply because that sustainment tail is unbeatable. But I dont think the political or social will is there to spend money down there right now.
Your/their Prez really fucked things up. This is on the USA, not Canada.
Czech_pivo
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Regardless of if Trump was in power or some other individual down in the US, the smart move, IF we are serious on getting our shit in order, is for us to diversify away from the US, look for other partners and to home grow our own industries. This is the smart real politik move, the smart business move and the smart economic move.
Having 75 +/-% of our existing and going forward defense spending going to only one single source is a fool's move. You don't have 75% of your retirement money in one single investment, you diversify.
We are 'seeing the light' of this thanks to the idiotic talk of the current US president and if that's the catalyst for our diversifying, then so be it. Just as long as we go through it.
The reality is, the fact is, the US makes some great kit and has some great supply chains - full stop - and like any product on the market, be it a watch, a car, a pair of dress shoes, a washing machine, whatever - excellent quality commands excellent pricing.
QV
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The US remains the most stable and powerful country on the planet despite the out of control media narratives acting like the end of the world because American's exercised democracy and elected someone outside the establishment.
Logistics is one of the most important aspects of a successful military. Extending supply chains into the unknowns with countries probably less aligned to Canada's interests isn't the play many think it is. Sure some from the EU or SK, but most from the US.
The only thing the 51st state rhetoric achieved was showing how insecure Canadians are. Canada is in the position it is because of Canada and Canadians. The world is in fact dangerous with adversarial players doing bad things, Canadians are resentful because their safety blanket got pulled back and they are forced to make choices they hoped the US would keep making for them: free social programs vs security/defence. It turns out security/defence are super expensive and it's unfair to expect someone else to do it for you forever.
In this period of global uncertainty (which is every period since the dawn of humans), to counter the major threats (Russia/China/Iran/NK) the most pragmatic move is food/resource/defence security and tighter unity of the North American continent while remaining aligned with the EU and other commonwealth of nations. Personalities, egos, media narratives, and special interests are making that difficult.
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