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U.S. Politics 2017 (split fm US Election: 2016)

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I know you disagree.  Just as I disagree with you.  We have had this discussion previously.

We can do one of two things.

We can stand on principle and fight this out endlessly.

Or, we can pragmatically accommodate each other, agree to disagree, and walk away recognizing that this debate has little to do with my ability to put bread on my table.

Drop me a line when you find the Truth.

:cheers:
 
PS WRT the jury system and MOST legal systems.....

That is the reason that Europe (27 other nations that do not use the jury system) and the UK (which does use the jury system) are at odds.

Europe's legal culture derives from canonical arbitration with God whispering the right answer in the Pope's ear. 

England's legal culture derives from a bunch of brigands, barons and buccaneers hashing out an answer that stops them from slaughtering each other.

Europe assumes there is an absolute platonic ideal.  And has spent centuries slaughtering each other in their certitude.

England, and Britain at large, for a couple of centuries, has found peace and stability by allowing every man to find his own way to hell in the manner of his choosing.

 
Chris Pook said:
I know you disagree.  Just as I disagree with you.  We have had this discussion previously.

We can do one of two things.

We can stand on principle and fight this out endlessly.

Or, we can pragmatically accommodate each other, agree to disagree, and walk away recognizing that this debate has little to do with my ability to put bread on my table.

Drop me a line when you find the Truth.

:cheers:

Agreed.

But as a parting shot on the topic of Truth:

“The truth." Dumbledore sighed. "It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution.”
― J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone

“The truth is rarely pure and never simple.”
― Oscar Wilde, The Importance of Being Earnest

“The reason I talk to myself is because I’m the only one whose answers I accept.”
― George Carlin

“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.”
― Winston S. Churchill

“There are no facts, only interpretations.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

“If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.”
― George Bernard Shaw

“The only truth is music.”
― Jack Kerouac

“People often claim to hunger for truth, but seldom like the taste when it's served up.”
― George R.R. Martin, A Clash of Kings

“You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”
― Anne Lamott

and finally

“If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end; if you look for comfort you will not get either comfort or truth only soft soap and wishful thinking to begin, and in the end, despair.”
― C.S. Lewis

:cheers:
 
It's Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, unless you're one of the unwashed heathens who read the American translation instead of the original English version...

 
dapaterson said:
It's Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, unless you're one of the unwashed heathens who read the American translation instead of the original English version...

Mea Culpa. Mea Maxima Culpa.

:surrender:
 
I tread carefully here.

One of my first lessons as a boy growing up as a protestant in a protestant Britain was "never make mock of another man's belief".

That has caused me, as it was meant to, to steer clear of religious discussions, advice that I found very useful in Canada.

However........  :whistle:

Culture matters.  And religion is culture.

In Europe religion is Christianity, Christianity is the Church and the Church is Roman.

That tautology drove European history up until 1945....... at least.

The Church was never a fan of liberal democracy.  In fact one of her favourite sons, in 1942, proclaimed the following: "We believe that state cannot pursue effectively the common good of the nation unless it answers to a single leader .... We must remember that authority comes from above, not from below: we condemn parliamentary democracy and liberalism."  (Young Trudeau, 1919-1944: Son of Quebec, Father of Canada - Max and Monique Nemni) Pierre Trudeau was 23 years old he wrote that.  Churchill and Roosevelt had just agreed the Atlantic Charter months before.  Canadian ships were being sunk in the St Lawrence and in the Atlantic.  Canadian soldiers had been bloodily repulsed at Dieppe.  Other Canadian soldiers were advancing through Italy on their way towards Rome.  Mussolini who, along with Franco, Salazar, deValera, Petain, was one of the heroes of the catholic model of socialism celebrated by the Church and Trudeau, had less than a year before his empire fell in September 1943.

At Christmas 1944 the Pope, Pius XII issued the following encyclical: Democracy and a Lasting Peace.

The Pope had a problem.  The horse that he had backed had ended up losing to the liberal democrats of the world.  He had to come to terms with the victors and, at the same time try to keep a hold on his flock by maintaining his authority.

He Wrote

THE PROBLEM OF DEMOCRACY

We direct our attention to the problem of democracy, examining the forms by which it should be directed if it is to be a true, healthy democracy answering the needs of the moment, our action shows clearly that the interest and solicitude of the Church looks not so much to its external structure and organization—which depend on the special aspirations of each people—as to the individual himself, who, so far from being the object and, as it were, a merely passive element in the social order, is in fact, and must be and continue to be, its subject, its foundation and its end.

CHARACTERISTICS PROPER TO CITIZENS IN A DEMOCRATIC REGIME

20. When, however, people call for "democracy and better democracy," such a demand cannot have any other meaning than to place the citizen ever more in the position to hold his own personal opinion, to express it and to make it prevail ...

PEOPLE AND "THE MASSES"

21. Hence follows a first conclusion with its practical consequence, the state does not contain in itself and does not mechanically bring together in a given territory a shapeless mass of individuals.

22. It is, and should in practice be, the organic and organizing unity of a real people. The people, and a shapeless multitude (or, as it is called, "the masses") are two distinct concepts.

23. The people lives and moves by its own life energy; the masses are inert of themselves and can only be moved from outside. The people lives by the fullness of life in the men that compose it, each of whom—at his proper place and in his own way—is a person conscious of his own responsibility and of his own views.

24. The masses, on the contrary, wait for the impulse from outside, an easy plaything in the hands of anyone who exploits their instincts and impressions; ready to follow in turn, today this flag, tomorrow another.

25. From the exuberant life of a true people, an abundant rich life is diffused in the state and all its organs, instilling into them. with a vigor that is always renewing itself, the consciousness of their own responsibility, the true instinct for the common good.

26. The elementary power of the masses, deftly managed and employed, the state also can utilize: in the ambitious hands of one or of several who have been artificially brought together for selfish aims, the state itself, with the support of the masses, reduced to the minimum status of a mere machine, can impose its whims on the better part of the real people: the common interest remains seriously, and for a long time, injured by this process, and the injury is very often hard to heal.

27. Hence follows clearly another conclusion: the masses—as we have just defined them—are the capital enemy of true democracy and of its ideal of liberty and equality.

There is much more in the same vein.  I find it a marvellously clear explication of the Church's position on authority.  I also find it antithetical to everything that my culture instilled in me.

I raise this not to denigrate the Church or anyone's beliefs, to debate kneeling or standing, icons or statues, the Triune God or her 9 billion names but to demonstrate the cultural divide between the UK and Europe, within Canada and between Revolutionary America and Tammany Hall America.

There are those that find solace in letting others define Truth and abiding by that.  Those people are culturally attuned to the acceptance of supra-national organizations like the Church, the UN, the EU, the League of Nations, the Socialist International, the Comintern, the International Standards Organization, globalization, internationalism and Davos. They demand Platonic clarity.  These are the leaders and followers of the EU.

On the other hand there are those that just wish the freedom to live their lives undisturbed, happy to live their own lives as they see fit and to let their neighbours live theirs.

By the way, in 1946 Pius XII elaborated on his thoughts of 1944 with his "allocution to the roman patriciate and nobility" "Nobility and the Traditional Elites" encouraging and counselling them on how to reclaim their position in society.

My first point is that the corporatists survived the liberal democrat victory.

The second point is that they did not roll over and play dead.

Cheers.

Oh, and PPS, in case it needs saying, when I say Europe I mean the Continent.  In Britain we had the Establishment Church and all of us dissenters and non-conformists.



 
Chris Pook said:
. . . Culture matters.  And religion is culture.

In Europe religion is Christianity, Christianity is the Church and the Church is Roman.

That tautology drove European history up until 1945....... at least. . . .

. . .  I find it a marvellously clear explication of the Church's position on authority.  I also find it antithetical to everything that my culture instilled in me.

I raise this not to denigrate the Church or anyone's beliefs, to debate kneeling or standing, icons or statues, the Triune God or her 9 billion names but to demonstrate the cultural divide between the UK and Europe, within Canada and between Revolutionary America and Tammany Hall America.

There are those that find solace in letting others define Truth and abiding by that.  Those people are culturally attuned to the acceptance of supra-national organizations like the Church, the UN, the EU, the League of Nations, the Socialist International, the Comintern, the International Standards Organization, globalization, internationalism and Davos. They demand Platonic clarity.  These are the leaders and followers of the EU.

On the other hand there are those that just wish the freedom to live their lives undisturbed, happy to live their own lives as they see fit and to let their neighbours live theirs. . . .

. . . My first point is that the corporatists survived the liberal democrat victory.

The second point is that they did not roll over and play dead.

Cheers.

Oh, and PPS, in case it needs saying, when I say Europe I mean the Continent.  In Britain we had the Establishment Church and all of us dissenters and non-conformists.

Interesting points CP. I'm not so sure if we aren't going a bit :off topic: but I see where it can fit in.

Firstly, I do not disagree with your view that the Catholic Church and the Pope-who had backed the wrong horse in WW2-was expressing, what I'll summarize as, a need that the religious elite has to seize power in a democracy in order to ensure its "success".

I disagree that this was why Europe has a "centrist" outlook while the UK has an "individualist" one. In fact only southern Europe is Catholic and Pope compliant while northern Europe is strictly Protestant. There are clearly differences between European Protestantism and Church of England Protestantism and I'd argue that the CoE is closer to Catholicism that European Protestantism.

I think the real difference between the European centrist culture and the British one arises out of Napoleon and his success in spreading the Civil Code system of government and law throughout Europe. Britain was never sullied by this system.

The Napoleonic code works from the top down and is dependant on the government developing the laws while the common law system is more organic in that it develops from a number of sources and grows over time.

The paradox is that in the US, while the people were of British stock and understood the common law, after the revolution, and because of their ties and gratitude for all things French, they developed a hybrid system of governance and law that is structured like a civil code but also borrows from the common law.

I think that the views of centrists (whether in Europe or elsewhere) these days have less to do with any innate desire to be subservient to a higher order (be it corporate of pious) but arise more out of a realization that because of modern communications and the physical ease with which trade can take place, that a country might be able to survive on its own but it won't thrive and may in fact be cornered into irrelevance.

Don't get me wrong. I, like you, think that there are way to many layers of government in the world and in Europe in particular. It's unfortunately a side product of globalisation that you do need some forms of controlling bodies although Europe seems to have taken it to a ridiculous extreme. That said, they do not have the corner on stupid government. I read several UK publications online each day and it strikes me that the epitome of unnecessary and overly restrictive meddling in the lives of the common man is the local council structure in Britain. (and don't get me started on television licencing scheme that feeds the BBC bureaucracy)

As to the tie in to the US. I think the one thing that your post has done is to make it clear to me where the religious right believes they have the moral authority to impose their views through the electoral process. Pious XII clearly mandated that the morally religious ubermenschen-"the people"-have a God-given duty to ensure that the rabble-"the shapeless multitude . . . the masses"-don't get out of line with their crazy ideas and hedonistic ways and a democracy.

I'm spending entirely too much time online today. My Fitbit tells me I've only travelled .27 km today. That's not good.

:cheers:
 
Oh what the hell yet one more!  ;D

It would appear that my view that Kelly was the only adult in the White House may have been misplaced:

Kelly erroneously claimed congresswoman took credit for building funding, video shows

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/20/politics/frederica-wilson-john-kelly-video/index.html

Even Fox reported this although you have to read down further in the article to come across it:

Democratic Rep. Frederica Wilson: White House 'is full of white supremacists'

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/10/20/frederica-wilson-white-house-is-full-white-supremacists.html

The White House's tepid and twisted response:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/20/politics/sarah-sanders-john-kelly-press/index.html


:cheers:
 
Going back to more day to day affairs, it looks like there has been a lot of "collusion" with the Russians after all, dating back to 2009. This is certainly out of sync with the way the "narrative" about Russian collusion has been presented to us nonstop by the media......

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/oct/18/russia-tables-turn-roping-clinton-obama-holder-not/?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiTldVM1pXSTVZV1JsTkdFNCIsInQiOiJDMWRrMnhzeHEyY2xCaVVkR0tmcmlIUkNRaHJVcXNxXC85eUtPdlpCT2ptVVUrNk55SCtFbmcybnk0XC83T044SEpqTVVFREJBK0U3OEp5SEV5aFRHem9MbnJwNDlSSUpSbXV5YUt1QUdHbTRCZmRMK095SkFiOXk1Z0w5WmxpQlV0In0%3D

Russia tables turn, roping Clinton, Obama, Holder, not Trump
By Cheryl K. Chumley - The Washington Times - Wednesday, October 18, 2017
ANALYSIS/OPINION:

The tables have turned and what was once the media’s favorite message — President Donald Trump colluded with Russia to steal the election — has now grown silent.

Apparently, it’s Bill and Hillary Clinton who’ve been doing the behind-scenes and suspicious dealings with Russia all along. Oh, and perhaps others in the Barack Obama administration, too.

You think special counsel Robert Mueller might switch the target of his investigation any time soon? Seems a bit time-wasting — not to mention taxpayer dollar-wasting — to keep on the Trump trail, desperately searching for signs of a collusion that just didn’t happen.
Futile is a word that comes to mind.

Better to dig deeper into this, as reported by The Hill: “Before the Obama administration approved a controversial deal in 2010 giving Moscow control of a large swath of American uranium, the FBI had gathered substantial evidence that Russian nuclear industry officials were engaged in bribery, kickbacks, extortion and money laundering designed to grow Vladimir Putin’s atomic energy business inside the United States.”

Intercepted emails shows that Russia had actually gained an inroad in America and compromised a U.S. uranium trucking firm with bribes.
But this is the bigger news: The feds also found an eyewitness who provided documented evidence to show that these Russia nuke officials had sent millions of dollars to the Clinton Foundation — at a time when Hillary was serving as secretary of state and on a government body that extended favor to Russia.

Of course, this isn’t exactly new.

Way back in April of 2015, The New York Times ran this headline: “Cash Flowed to Clinton Foundation Amid Russian Uranium Deal.” And among its many, many lines was this one: “As the Russians gradually assumed control of Uranium One in three separate transactions from 2009 to 2013, Canadian records show, a flow of cash made its way to the Clinton Foundation.”

In fact, that “flow of cash” was actually four separate flows of cash, for a total amount of $2.35 million. And, we also learned from this New York Times piece, “those contributions were not publicly disclosed by the Clintons.”

A lot of this was also uncovered a outlined by other writers, as well — John Rappoport, investigative journalist, comes to mind, as well as Peter Schweitzer, of “Clinton Cash” author fame.

But what is coming to light is what others knew, and when.

The feds suspected as early as 2009 that Russia was engaged in this dirty dealing. And the United States, under Barack Obama’s administration, did nothing.

“Rather than bring immediate charges in 2010, however, the Department of Justice continued investigating the matter for nearly four more years, essentially leaving the American public and Congress in the dark about Russian nuclear corruption on U.S. soil during a period when the Obama administration made two major decisions benefiting [Vladimir] Putin’s commercial nuclear ambitions,” The Hill wrote.
The American people want to know — was U.S. security compromised by the Obama-Clinton deals with Russia?

Mueller’s tasked with the wrong job. If he really wants to find out if America’s interests were compromised in any way by Russia, he needs to quit looking Trump’s way and start digging deep into the Clintons and yes, the Obama administration.

The Hill asked both Clinton and then-attorney general Eric Holder for comment. Curiously, neither had anything to say at this time. Their silence is both telling, and unacceptable. Now if only the same leftists who’ve been clamoring for impeachment of Trump over supposed collusion with Russia would similarly demand answers about Clinton, Holder and Obama — maybe we’d get to the finally get to the bottom of this.
 
Thucydides said:
Going back to more day to day affairs, it looks like there has been a lot of "collusion" with the Russians after all, dating back to 2009. This is certainly out of sync with the way the "narrative" about Russian collusion has been presented to us nonstop by the media......

Consider me absolutely shocked. Clinton empire and the Russians? Never seen it coming.
 
Reply #1470

Russia tables turn, roping Clinton, Obama, Holder, not Trump

Business Insider

Republicans are freaking out about a new report tying Hillary Clinton to a Russian uranium deal
http://www.businessinsider.com/republicans-trump-uramium-one-deal-hillary-clinton-2017-10
Propelled by conservative media and congressional Republicans, President Donald Trump revived a story about an Obama administration uranium deal that Hillary Clinton had tangential ties to.
 
mariomike said:
Reply #1470

Business Insider

Republicans are freaking out about a new report tying Hillary Clinton to a Russian uranium deal
http://www.businessinsider.com/republicans-trump-uramium-one-deal-hillary-clinton-2017-10
Propelled by conservative media and congressional Republicans, President Donald Trump revived a story about an Obama administration uranium deal that Hillary Clinton had tangential ties to.

But what does it mean when the guy who has the keys to the Justice Department says let's see where this goes? Special Counsel maybe?
 
mariomike said:
Propelled by conservative media and congressional Republicans, President Donald Trump revived a story about an Obama administration uranium deal that Hillary Clinton had tangential ties to.

As opposed to the the completely baseless links of the Trump campaign to Russian interference peddled by the liberal media and Democrats? It now is starting to show the real story, that any "Russian interference" was due Obama-Clinton policies and not any collusion with the Trump campaign.

Its going to be awfully funny when the Democrats try to run a fear campaign in 2020 of unfounded claims and failed investigations instead of fixing why they lost in the first place.
 
PuckChaser said:
As opposed to the the completely baseless links of the Trump campaign to Russian interference peddled by the liberal media and Democrats? It now is starting to show the real story, that any "Russian interference" was due Obama-Clinton policies and not any collusion with the Trump campaign.

Its going to be awfully funny when the Democrats try to run a fear campaign in 2020 of unfounded claims and failed investigations instead of fixing why they lost in the first place.

PuckChaser, if you don't mind, the words you quoted as mine in your Reply #1474 belong to Business Insider, not me. I made no comment.

QUOTE

Business Insider

Republicans are freaking out about a new report tying Hillary Clinton to a Russian uranium deal
http://www.businessinsider.com/republicans-trump-uramium-one-deal-hillary-clinton-2017-10
Propelled by conservative media and congressional Republicans, President Donald Trump revived a story about an Obama administration uranium deal that Hillary Clinton had tangential ties to.

END QUOTE

QUOTE
Sun October 22, 2017

"McCain appears to mock Trump's draft deferments"
http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/22/politics/john-mccain-trump-draft-deferments/index.html
"Washington (CNN) — Sen. John McCain, in an interview about the Vietnam War, appeared to take a swipe at President Donald Trump when he criticized people from "the highest income level" who avoided the draft by finding a doctor who "would say that they had a bone spur." "
END QUOTE
 
PuckChaser said:
As opposed to the the completely baseless links of the Trump campaign to Russian interference peddled by the liberal media and Democrats? It now is starting to show the real story, that any "Russian interference" was due Obama-Clinton policies and not any collusion with the Trump campaign.

Its going to be awfully funny when the Democrats try to run a fear campaign in 2020 of unfounded claims and failed investigations instead of fixing why they lost in the first place.

Would not surprise me, Bill Clinton was more than happy to cut a deal with the Taliban to get a gas pipeline built across Afghanistan, even while they were executing women in burkas on the soccer fields. It was various women groups that forced him to act against them. 
 
Now that's telling it like it is:

Jeff Flake's full speech announcing he won't run for re-election

. . . Without fear of the consequences, and without consideration of the rules of what is politically safe or palatable, we must stop pretending that the degradation of our politics and the conduct of some in our executive branch are normal. They are not normal.

Reckless, outrageous, and undignified behavior has become excused and countenanced as "telling it like it is," when it is actually just reckless, outrageous, and undignified.

And when such behavior emanates from the top of our government, it is something else: It is dangerous to a democracy. Such behavior does not project strength -- because our strength comes from our values. It instead projects a corruption of the spirit, and weakness. . . .

Really worth the time reading the whole thing here:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/24/politics/jeff-flake-retirement-speech-full-text/index.html

:cheers:
 
So was he talking about the Clintons and the DNC corruption scandal that is brewing?
 
QV said:
So was he talking about the Clintons and the DNC corruption scandal that is brewing?

I think he was talking about the probably literate current resident of the white house.

Trump doing things like going to the UN and called Kim Jong-Un "rocket man" make Trump look like a buffoon. It's the sort of thing I would expect from an 8 year old.
 
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