Unifarm idears from Back to Basics

[dapaterson]

We can argue smart-aleck comment or not all day.

but fact of the matter is that you didn't answer the question posed...which was why aren't more air force themed ranks used a la Navy...you just point blank said they are not Army or AF ranks...they are CF ranks...which wasn't the question posed...nor did it further the intended discussion.

Read the Columns to the schedule to the NDA, then read QR&O chapter 3.

Or go on ranting on the internet.

 

[Pusser]

The RCAF had Flight Sergeants vice Staff Sergeants, actually.

But that's only half of the rank structure anyway - the entire RCAF Officer ranks disappeared, which was a good thing too as they made little no sense. If we regressed to those now, we would have Group Captains commanding Wings, Wing Commanders commanding Squadrons, Squadron Leaders commanding Flights, and Flight Lieutenants commanding themselves, and occasionally other crewmembers.

As I understand it, that's pretty much the situation with the RAF today (i.e. wing commanders commanding squadrons, etc).

 

[dapaterson]

If you go by that list in the QR&O's, the Naval ranks are not to be used (because they do not appear), so it must be outdated or erroneous.

You may think it rude/insulting that someone ask for an answer when YOU consider it answered already...but I consider it just as rude when someone answers what I consider to be a different question then the one I ask.

I'm not asking why don't we use colloquial names for ranks (i.e Sapper, Gunner, etc)...but why the Navy has its own element specific ranks while the other 2 elements do not.

Have you read QR&O chapter 3 yet?  Apparently not, or you'd have seen note 2 to QR&O 3.01:

(2) An officer or non-commissioned member who, on or after the date this article comes into force (18 September 1986), holds a rank in the Canadian Forces set out in paragraph (1) and who, in accordance with orders and instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff wears a naval uniform, shall use and be referred to by the designation of rank set out in Column II of the Schedule to the National Defence Act having the same serial number as that of his rank in paragraph (1), and reference in this paragraph to the rank held by an officer or non-commissioned member includes any rank to which the member may be promoted, reduced or reverted from time to time.

Any further spoon-feeding required?

 

[Pusser]

If you go by that list in the QR&O's, the Naval ranks are not to be used (because they do not appear), so it must be outdated or erroneous.

You may think it rude/insulting that someone ask for an answer when YOU consider it answered already...but I consider it just as rude when someone answers what I consider to be a different question then the one I ask.

I'm not asking why don't we use colloquial names for ranks (i.e Sapper, Gunner, etc)...but why the Navy has its own element specific ranks while the other 2 elements do not.

Please re-read QR&O 3.01.  Para 2 explains quite clearly that naval ranks shall be used by personnel who wear the naval uniform.  Admittedly, it shouldn't have been too difficult to include those ranks at Para 1, but whoever wrote it didn't seem to feel the need.  Nevertheless, the reader is still directed to the Schedule, where it's all laid out.

As to why naval ranks survived and the more traditional army and air force ones did not can be explained simply by the fact that the naval leadership felt this was more important an issue than the army or air force leadership did.  When the CF was first reorganized in 1968, the direction was that there would only be one rank structure, the CF one.  Whereas this was not a huge departure for either the army or the air force (many other air forces use a similar rank structure) it was astronomical for the navy.  Simply put, hardly any navy in the world uses anything similar to the CF rank structure (the Chinese People's Liberation Army Navy - yes, that's officially what it's called - being a notable exception).  The thought of lieutenant-colonels commanding HMC Ships was just too much to bear and so naval personnel resisted.  It wasn't easy though.  The CDS at teh time was adamant that only CF ranks be used and I remember seeing old photographs with pictures of sailors with their ranks listed as,"Cpl(S), LCol (S), etc.  The situation was constantly debated for a few years when the Minister finally came down and said that naval ranks (Column II of the Schedule) could be used for internal correspondence in Maritime Command as forms of address.  All official CF correspondence and forms still had to use CF rank.  I distinctly remember seeing my name listed as "Cpl" on a flight manifest.  In 1986, it all changed again and naval ranks were recognized across the board.  As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the idea was discussed in the air force, but never gained much momentum as most of the air force seems content with the status quo.

On another note with regard to the "ridiculous" (as described by another poster) traditional air force ranks (flight lieutenant, squadron leader, etc), somebody didn't seem to think that was a problem when rendering Canadian naval ranks in French.  Apparently, an official languages complaint years ago accused the French ranks we were then using (commandeur, capitaine (M), etc.) of being aglicisms and, therefore, unacceptable.  As a result, somebody decided to borrow titles from the French Navy and we were saddled with capitaine de corvette, capitaine de frégate, etc.  This follows the old RCAF pattern and interestingly, the German pattern of naming the rank for the level at which the hlder is expected to command.  This might work better if we still had corvettes in service ....

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Additional on Pusser's post above: Even more than Lcol's commanding ship, we feared the explaining we would have to do with our NATO allies  (with whom we worked on a daily basis) as to why our ships had 9 to 10 captains.

In a different thread, http://Forums.Milnet.ca/forums/threads/17282/post-955235.html#msg955235 , I've explained the "french" thing for our naval ranks, which really has to do with the LCDR'a and CDR's only. I'd like to point out that, while there was a debate over use of "French" equivalent terminology for the two officer ranks just mentioned, no such debate occurred for the C&PO's even though we used the very same type of "equivalent" as opposed to "direct translation" for  the ranks of Petty Officers and Chiefs. 

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Oh! I forgot Pusser: It still works, sort of...

Flower class corvette: 940 t. / 62 meters : Commanded by a LCDR (Capitaine de "Corvette")
Kingston class MCDV: 970 t. / 56 meters : Commanded by a LCDR

Our Frigates are commanded by CDR's (Capitaine de frégates)

The Destroyers (surely our "ships of the line - so to speak) : Commanded by Captains (Capitaines de vaisseau).

 

[hugh19]

Destroyers are now commanded by Commanders.    iper:

 

[aesop081]

Arguing over air force rank......wow  :

I'll continue to call people James, Mike, Pete, etc... no matter what the ranks are called. Why we haven't gone back to something more "traditional" is beyond me but i dont realy care. I know and understand what we have now and its just fine.

 

[Pusser]

Destroyers are now commanded by Commanders.    iper:

True.  I also remember when supply ships were commanded by captains(N), who acted like they were commanding capital ships!

Oldgateboatdriver is right on the French titles for chiefs and petty officers.  We really don't notice.  I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that we never use them?  I have NEVER heard anyone in the Canadian Navy address a PO as "Maitre" in any language, but I've heard many a "Peeyo" in a very thick French accent. ;D

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I'll continue to call people James, Mike, Pete, etc... no matter what the ranks are called.

Definitely in line with the "by-the-book" approach to military discipline in the Air Force we have come to love and respect

Otherwise, I am glad to hear that we are back to  CDR's driving the Destroyers, IMHO, unless they were simultaneously acting as TG Commanders, it was overkill when they started putting Captains in there.

As regards French rank titles for  PO's and CPO's, I surmise they are fairly strictly followed in the five Quebec Reserve units and at St-Jean during basic, but I agree we seldom use them on the coast or at sea - even on Franco units. Many years ago, I had a Franco PO1 as Chief Boatswain Mate so I took to calling him by the proper French job title of  "Bosco" - That just drove him up the mast everytime: "C'est Buffer, monsieur". Good thing he knew I was kidding as we had a long friendly relationship between us.

 

[dapaterson]

I've heard many a "Peeyo" in a very thick French accent. ;D

Sort of like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DA8yjNbcKkNY&sa=X&ei=to7uTPSlFMP7lweh86zXDA&ved=0CBoQuAIwAA&usg=AFQjCNE289WL_FbT_ePOYhSSZ8Pbj3vtLA