Updated Army Service Dress project

[ArmyRick]

The can of worms is now open.

Well, the Rangers are also a sub-component of the reserve force and have their own distinct uniform. Like Rangers, CIC members don't need to meet universality of service requirements and can't be called into active service, unlike members of the RegF and Primary Reserve.

Cadets themselves already have a distinct uniform, which they continue to wear when employed as staff cadets for summer training... What is the benefit of having CIC officers wear different uniforms than those they are responsible for training/leading? Arguably, wearing the cadet uniforms, rather than the regular CAF ones, would make CIC more similar to the other components of the CAF. It'd also probably cost less money and simplify supply to cadet units in remote areas.

The merits of CIC holding a commission to be in charge of children, who have no obligation to follow their orders, is a whole other discussion not relevant to uniforms but that may be worth having... Why give CIC command authority and pay them a captain's salary when they do not have comparable educational prerequisites, medical or physical standards, training, or service obligations of officers in the RegF or PRes? Again, the Rangers are also members of the CAF and do not have commissioned officers (aside from those RegF members posted in support roles), and they go on armed patrols.

Rangers have a uniform and kit that is functional to them. If Rangers really wanted a DEU, they would probably ask for it by now. The rangers I have met would never want to bother with a DEU.

The CIC and COATS (I nearly transferred to COATS as a WO, and would simply wear my last regiment's identity) wear DEU and operational dress depending on on their duties. They have been doing so since before I was born. So why make a pointless change now? Because you don't like them? Go pound salt, dude.

No can of worms to open except by people like you. The last job I had before I released was training CIC officers on their basic and I worked with an excellent CWO Eli Aucoin (MP Branch). The CIC have their mission statement and they have a job to do, get the fuck over it. All in all, I was rather impressed with the mostly professional officers. Guess what? I have met unprofessional losers in both the Reg force and P Res, so its not unique to CIC. Their job is a greatly under appreciated and undervalued job, to develop, mentor and foster youth into responsible people. And the majority do an excellent job.

Nope, I stand in full opposition against your narrowed view.

 

[ArmyRick]

What is the benefit of having CIC officers wear different uniforms than those they are responsible for training/leading?

Heres an amazing concept. Cadet uniforms are a little cheaper yes but two things
1. They are teenagers, if they trash their uniforms, not a big lost; and
2. Again, they are teenagers and change sizes every 6-12 months. Incase you didn't realize teenagers grow.

Nope, I at least want our CIC to look and act professional and kept away from demeaning and condescending people like you. And guess what? CIC is subject to the service code discipline.

Tell us about your vast first hand experiences working with the CIC? Enlighten us?

 

[Winds]

ArmyRick, I'm not sure where you get off accusing me of being "demeaning and condescending" or suggesting that I "don't like" CIC officers. Perhaps you should reread what I wrote and, while you're at it, reread your own statements as well. I wrote my last post in response to your own attempt at shutting down any legitimate conversation on the topic by insinuating that the idea was "bone headed", and thus not worthy of discussion. You don't need to divulge into personal attacks just because someone states an opinion you dislike.

I used te Rangers as a comparator to the Canadian Cadet Organization (CCO) because they are also a sub-component of the reserve force and also uniquely distinct from the rest of the CAF in their role and purpose. This thread is supposed to be about uniforms and I don't think it is such a wild concept to consider that perhaps CIC should wear more similar uniforms to the cadets that they are in charge of.

You stated that "Rangers have a uniform and kit that is functional to them". That was kind of my point too. Cadets also have a uniform that is functional to them, so it begs the question what differs between them and the CIC that necessitates different uniforms. The CCO is the only CAF component where the officers have significantly different uniforms than those they are in charge of leading.

You previously suggested that CIC should properly wear DEU because "They are members of the CAF, period." That's why I pointed out that the Rangers are CAF members and have there own uniforms that doesn't include DEU. New members of the PRes also don't normally receive DEU until they reach OFP and have 2 years of service. DEU are expensive, period. If CIC were to where cadet uniforms, if a derivative of it, I'd bet there would be significant cost savings for the organization that could be repurposed.

It wouldn't be a "pointless change" if it saved money and may have other improvements within the CCO as well... if the CIC consider the uniforms of the cadets beneath them, then maybe they should advocate for the cadet scale of issue to be improved in design/quality.

I also never mentioned anything about the professionalism or unprofessionalism of CIC officers individually or as a collective and am not sure why you've brought that up as somehow relevant to the discussion. I in fact strongly support the CCO and have respect for the CIC who run it, generally. However, that doesn't mean the current way the organization is organized, administered, or clothed is beyond discussion.

Sure, CIC officers may have been wearing DEU since unification but cadets used to wear service uniforms too. The army is moving away from DEU, the question is if CIC officers should wear the new army service dress. Yes, they are CAF members but they are NOT members of the Canadian Army (or RCN/RCAF).

 

[markppcli]

ArmyRick, I'm not sure where you get off accusing me of being "demeaning and condescending" or suggesting that I "don't like" CIC officers. Perhaps you should reread what I wrote and, while you're at it, reread your own statements as well. I wrote my last post in response to your own attempt at shutting down any legitimate conversation on the topic by insinuating that the idea was "bone headed", and thus not worthy of discussion. You don't need to divulge into personal attacks just because someone states an opinion you dislike.

I used te Rangers as a comparator to the Canadian Cadet Organization (CCO) because they are also a sub-component of the reserve force and also uniquely distinct from the rest of the CAF in their role and purpose. This thread is supposed to be about uniforms and I don't think it is such a wild concept to consider that perhaps CIC should wear more similar uniforms to the cadets that they are in charge of.

You stated that "Rangers have a uniform and kit that is functional to them". That was kind of my point too. Cadets also have a uniform that is functional to them, so it begs the question what differs between them and the CIC that necessitates different uniforms. The CCO is the only CAF component where the officers have significantly different uniforms than those they are in charge of leading.

You previously suggested that CIC should properly wear DEU because "They are members of the CAF, period." That's why I pointed out that the Rangers are CAF members and have there own uniforms that doesn't include DEU. New members of the PRes also don't normally receive DEU until they reach OFP and have 2 years of service. DEU are expensive, period. If CIC were to where cadet uniforms, if a derivative of it, I'd bet there would be significant cost savings for the organization that could be repurposed.

It wouldn't be a "pointless change" if it saved money and may have other improvements within the CCO as well... if the CIC consider the uniforms of the cadets beneath them, then maybe they should advocate for the cadet scale of issue to be improved in design/quality.

I also never mentioned anything about the professionalism or unprofessionalism of CIC officers individually or as a collective and am not sure why you've brought that up as somehow relevant to the discussion. I in fact strongly support the CCO and have respect for the CIC who run it, generally. However, that doesn't mean the current way the organization is organized, administered, or clothed is beyond discussion.

Sure, CIC officers may have been wearing DEU since unification but cadets used to wear service uniforms too. The army is moving away from DEU, the question is if CIC officers should wear the new army service dress. Yes, they are CAF members but they are NOT members of the Canadian Army (or RCN/RCAF).

Very very well said.

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . . The CCO is the only CAF component where the officers have significantly different uniforms than those they are in charge of leading.

I don't want to get dragged into an argument about who should or should not be uniformed differently, but as one of the resident pedants on these means, I would make the point that "cadets" (the children specifically and not the organization) are not members of the CAF.

While in times long past (but still within my brief experience in cadets) the officers may have worn uniforms similar to the cadets (e.g., battledress), however, there were quite noticeable differences in uniforms worn by officers to those worn by other ranks. And there were even periods when the uniforms worn by cadets were, like today, different from those worn by serving soldiers.

 

[markppcli]

Rangers have a uniform and kit that is functional to them. If Rangers really wanted a DEU, they would probably ask for it by now. The rangers I have met would never want to bother with a DEU.

Not what he said

The CIC and COATS (I nearly transferred to COATS as a WO, and would simply wear my last regiment's identity) wear DEU and operational dress depending on on their duties. They have been doing so since before I was born. So why make a pointless change now? Because you don't like them? Go pound salt, dude.

No about liking them or not - it’s about their duties and representing what they do.

No can of worms to open except by people like you. The last job I had before I released was training CIC officers on their basic and I worked with an excellent CWO Eli Aucoin (MP Branch). The CIC have their mission statement and they have a job to do, get the fuck over it. All in all, I was rather impressed with the mostly professional officers.

You’re the one bringing up professionalism.

Guess what? I have met unprofessional losers in both the Reg force and P Res, so its not unique to CIC. Their job is a greatly under appreciated and undervalued job, to develop, mentor and foster youth into responsible people. And the majority do an excellent job.

No one is doubting this

Nope, I stand in full opposition against your narrowed view.

It’s narrow minded to say “perhaps the organization that is responsible for running a youth program should be visually distinct from actual operational military.”

 

[Winds]

I don't want to get dragged into an argument about who should or should not be uniformed differently, but as one of the resident pedants on these means, I would make the point that "cadets" (the children specifically and not the organization) are not members of the CAF.

While in times long past (but still within my brief experience in cadets) the officers may have worn uniforms similar to the cadets (e.g., battledress), however, there were quite noticeable differences in uniforms worn by officers to those worn by other ranks. And there were even periods when the uniforms worn by cadets were, like today, different from those worn by serving soldiers.

Given there are about 7500 CIC officers, perhaps an entirely distinct uniform would be appropriate? Similar to the cadet uniforms but slightly different cut, and not requiring dry cleaning. Maybe even the same material?

 

[dimsum]

Their job is a greatly under appreciated and undervalued job, to develop, mentor and foster youth into responsible people. And the majority do an excellent job.

Agreed. However, that in itself doesn’t mean that it has to be a CAF-uniformed person. The job of COATS is specifically to work with people who are not in the CAF, and may not join the CAF.

My two questions (having been a Cadet but not a CIC person) are:

1. Do they have unlimited liability?
2. Do they go through the same BMQ / BMOQ training as other members of the CAF?

(I already know that they don’t do the FORCE test like other CAF members)

If no, then why is there a “double standard” to who wears the CAF uniform?

…I’d stir the pot even more and ask about Honourary Colonels, etc but at least in the RCAF, they have a “HCol wings” badge prominently on the uniform.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Given there are about 7500 CIC officers, perhaps an entirely distinct uniform would be appropriate? Similar to the cadet uniforms but slightly different cut, and not requiring dry cleaning. Maybe even the same material?

Do they wear the "dry cleaning required" uniform at a greater rate than any other paid reservist?




If numbers and separate organization were to be the yardstick to determine a distinctive uniform, I would suggest that the Medical Branch (aka Royal Canadian Medical Service) be considered for reclothing. And no, not in purple. Oh wait, I already wrote a service paper not recommending such. But that was in the 1980s when my then boss had me research the separate (and distinctly uniformed) military medical services of some European allies (France, Belgium primarily spring to memory) to see if any of their experience was applicable to our branch.

 

[Winds]

My two questions (having been a Cadet but not a CIC person) are:

1. Do they have unlimited liability?
2. Do they go through the same BMQ / BMOQ training as other members of the CAF?

No, CIC aren't subject to unlimited liability (nor can they be called to active service), universality of service requirements, or fitness requirements. They don't complete regular BMOQ, but neither do chaplains/doctors

Do they wear the "dry cleaning required" uniform at a greater rate than any other paid reservist?


View attachment 89120

If numbers and separate organization were to be the yardstick to determine a distinctive uniform, I would suggest that the Medical Branch (aka Royal Canadian Medical Service) be considered for reclothing. And no, not in purple. Oh wait, I already wrote a service paper not recommending such. But that was in the 1980s when my then boss had me research the separate (and distinctly uniformed) military medical services of some European allies (France, Belgium primarily spring to memory) to see if any of their experience was applicable to our branch.

So, in the picture you posted, is there specific benefit for CIC officers to wear CADPAT uniforms rather than the olive drab ones worn by their subordinates? Also, I never proposed that "numbers and separate (should) be the yardstick to determine a distinctive uniform". CIC officers are not just organized separately than other CAF members, their employment requirements and obligations are starkly different... that's why I brought up universality of service, unlimited liability, training, etc.

The medical branch does not comprise an entirely unique sub-component like the CIC or Rangers. However, I believe there is a valid argument for medical personnel to have distinct field uniforms to clearly identify them as non-combatants under international humanitarian law. A removable brassard with the red cross on it isn't much of an identifier... After all, the USMC goes as far as employing U.S. Navy Corpsmen rather than training marines as medics because it'd go against the creed that every marine is a rifleman first. That results in an entirely different uniforms.

What were the arguments you put forth in your paper on why the CAF's approach was superior to that adopted by several European militaries?

 

[dimsum]

No, CIC aren't subject to unlimited liability (nor can they be called to active service), universality of service requirements, or fitness requirements. They don't complete regular BMOQ, but neither do chaplains/doctors

Fair.

The medical branch does not comprise an entirely unique sub-component like the CIC or Rangers. However, I believe there are valid arguments for medical personnel to have distinct field uniforms to clearly identify them as non-combatants under international humanitarian law. A removable brassard with the red cross on it isn't much of an identifier... After all, the USMC goes as far as employing U.S. Navy Corpsmen rather than training marines as medics because it'd go against the creed that every marine is a rifleman first. That results in an entirely different uniforms.

Actually, Corpsmen assigned to the USMC can wear USMC uniforms with USN insignia.

 

[dimsum]

If numbers and separate organization were to be the yardstick to determine a distinctive uniform, I would suggest that the Medical Branch (aka Royal Canadian Medical Service) be considered for reclothing. And no, not in purple. Oh wait, I already wrote a service paper not recommending such. But that was in the 1980s when my then boss had me research the separate (and distinctly uniformed) military medical services of some European allies (France, Belgium primarily spring to memory) to see if any of their experience was applicable to our branch.

Unless it raises too many bad memories, what were the reasons you didn’t recommend it?

I also don’t agree with a whole set of uniforms for “branding” purposes.

 

[Winds]

Actually, Corpsmen assigned to the USMC can wear USMC uniforms with USN insignia.

View attachment 89121

Interesting that they wear marine uniforms while still maintaining status as a non-marine.

Perhaps the CAF should have a more similar approach and assign uniforms for purple trades based off employment, rather than an arbitrary designation given during recruitment... though that may not be a very prudent use of tax dollars.

 

[dapaterson]

If numbers and separate organization were to be the yardstick to determine a distinctive uniform, I would suggest that the Medical Branch (aka Royal Canadian Medical Service) be considered for reclothing. And no, not in purple. Oh wait, I already wrote a service paper not recommending such. But that was in the 1980s when my then boss had me research the separate (and distinctly uniformed) military medical services of some European allies (France, Belgium primarily spring to memory) to see if any of their experience was applicable to our branch.

So the Rx2000 consolidation of Med and Dent was all your fault then ?

 

[markppcli]

Interesting that they wear marine uniforms while still maintaining status as a non-marine.

Perhaps the CAF should have a more similar approach and assign uniforms for purple trades based off employment, rather than an arbitrary designation given during recruitment... though that may not be a very prudent use of tax dollars.

Or we could be totally crazy and post navy people to ships and army people to army bases

 

[ArmyRick]

@Winds @markppcli Not a damn thing you responded to on my post has convinced me one inch. Notta. Your coming across as shitting all over the CIC, pure and simple. Mark, I would expect a little better from you.

Have either of you two actually worked with the CIC? and if so, in what capacity?

Telling CIC they shouldn't wear DEU is fucking petty, boys. I made the point about the Rangers and you totally missed it. Its obvious none of understand the point of the cadet movement.

So lets say we save a bundle and give the CIC coveralls to wear. Do you think that money will be redirected to more ammo, tanks of F35s? Nope.

 

[ArmyRick]

Ohhh, and an amazing fact I learned working with the CIC (from an RCAF colonel who supervised them) the cadet movement is a HUGE recruiting route for the CAF.

But piss and moan about the CIC wearing military uniforms.

 

[ArmyRick]

No, CIC aren't subject to unlimited liability (nor can they be called to active service), universality of service requirements, or fitness requirements

Neither do the Canadian Rangers.

 

[ArmyRick]

@Winds So Canadian Rangers elect their NCOs. Should we have take that from them because no one else does it? Or do we get the CIC to elect their own commissioned officers? Did you forget CIC are commissioned officers?

 

[markppcli]

@Winds @markppcli Not a damn thing you responded to on my post has convinced me one inch. Notta. Your coming across as shitting all over the CIC, pure and simple. Mark, I would expect a little better from you.

Have either of you two actually worked with the CIC? and if so, in what capacity?

Telling CIC they shouldn't wear DEU is fucking petty, boys. I made the point about the Rangers and you totally missed it. Its obvious none of understand the point of the cadet movement.

So lets say we save a bundle and give the CIC coveralls to wear. Do you think that money will be redirected to more ammo, tanks of F35s? Nope.

Where did I shit on the CIC? I didn’t write a damned thing that was negative, I just pointed out the difference between essentially being a scout leader and being in an operational role. I was a cadet for years, and I volunteered to work with them many times since. I agree cadets are a great recruiting tool but I don’t think that it relies on CIC officers being in DEUs.


Quite frankly you’ve taken some pretty mild comments, drawn your own conclusions, decided it was an attack, taken that personally, and lashed out. I would expect you to be able to read something and not take it as an attack and rather than assuming insult argue it rationally. You haven’t done that, despite what you think, and you’ve infact eroded your own point in your outbursts.