Updated Army Service Dress project

[dapaterson]

Are you suggesting some version of denim?

Canadian Tuxedo for the win!

 

[boredtoon]

I don't know if Operational dress at NDHQ etc. is going to stay. Some have hinted that it was because of a lack of uniform availability. Given than Logistik is scaling back on DEU because the new Army DEU is arriving in 2026, that's probably why. And they couldn't just say Op Dress for Army because the RCAF and RCN would get their noses out of joint that they still had to wear DEU. You'll see 3B return to the NCR when the new ones are issued.

While I don't know if NDHQ or other similar offices will go back to No. 3/3B, the army DEU shortage is real. At my unit we just went through the process of sizing new troops at clothing stores for DEUs. We were told there is no expected delivery date, as logistik is not manufacturing any army DEU anymore. The only items being shipped are what is left in stock. "standard size" members of the unit have been waiting on their replacement tunic or pants to show up for almost 12 months now.

 

[Eaglelord17]

The problem with that line of thinking is that the "one" order of dress is the men's. And women and gender diverse people are supposed to just be okay with dressing in a "mannish" uniform (Enloe, 2000, p. 263). Let's imagine the women's order of dress as the "one" order and see if the men like that. I suspect they will not. And this speaks to the deeper and systemic issues within the CAF and within society where we have decided male is default or unisex and everyone else is "the exception" (Taber, 2005, p. 292).

It’s a uniform, not a personal fashion statement. At this point in time pants and suits are gender neutral.

One uniform, one standard. Can’t meet either you shouldn’t be doing the job.

 

[dapaterson]

So the male standard is now gender neutral but the female standard is not. Got it.

 

[AmmoTech90]

No trousers, just skirts.
That would be acceptable right?

 

[shiska]

No trousers, just skirts.
That would be acceptable right?

Kilts for EVERYONE!

 

[AmmoTech90]

Kilts for EVERYONE!

I'm Scottish descent and that's cultural appropriation.

JK- don't care I'm Orcadian.

 

[Furniture]

You'll see 3B return to the NCR when the new ones are issued.

I'm not so sure.

Esquimalt switched to NCD for daily wear ashore as well, and it isn't because a few soldiers on base would be in CADPAT.

I think we need to consider what an independent Canada with its own identity would dress like rather than putting Millennials and Gen Z etc. in historical outfits. I want to see a modernised dress uniform, emphasis on modernised.

So what exactly would that look like, that isn't a copy of someone else's uniform? There is nothing wrong with a uniform that reflects our history, made in more modern cuts, with modern materials.

If we wanted a "modern" dress uniform it could be CADPAT/NCDs, because current dress uniforms are just slightly modified versions of older work uniforms.

I'd rather see us drop the silly "service dress" concept altogether, and have just "operational dress", and "full dress" uniforms. With "full dress" uniforms saved for ceremonial occasions like Remembrance Day, Battle of the Atlantic, Legislature openings etc..

 

[markppcli]

It’s a uniform, not a personal fashion statement. At this point in time pants and suits are gender neutral.

One uniform, one standard. Can’t meet either you shouldn’t be doing the job.

Which job? Most of the combats arms would struggle to get a medical degree. Is that the standard and the job?

 

[Kilted]

So the male standard is now gender neutral but the female standard is not. Got it.

I mean, that isn't exactly new.

 

[dapaterson]

Which job? Most of the combats arms would struggle to get a medical degree. Is that the standard and the job?

 

[OldSolduer]

Canadian Tuxedo for the win!

Plaid jacket then, like the Redblacks?

 

[Eaglelord17]

So the male standard is now gender neutral but the female standard is not. Got it.

Considering formal dress for women is acceptable as a suit and pants yet for a man a skirt is not considered acceptable then by definition pants and a suit is gender neutral.

No trousers, just skirts.
That would be acceptable right?

I am scottish, just got married in a kilt, doesn’t offend me none.

However that would be forcing a societally inappropriate outfit on men, well going the opposite way is societally acceptable.

Which job? Most of the combats arms would struggle to get a medical degree. Is that the standard and the job?

I am confused as to what your point is. My point is each job should have one standard, fitness wise and training wise. None of the sexist/ageist double standards which existed previously. Can’t meet it, get out.

 

[RedFive]

The RCMP has a legacy very deeply steeped in colonialism (NWMP) and the Boer War (where the NWMP became a big part of the Lord Strat's). So, it is very unsurprising they would have all the same issues with gendered and colonial dress that the military does. But they didn't magically solve the issues of gendered dress by letting the women wear the same stuff as the men but with a different tailoring option to accommodate their bodies. The thing all the police and military organisations neglect to address is that the dress isn't magically unisex. It's men's uniforms modified for women. Male is still a gender. Male doesn't really equal unisex no matter how many people try to argue that it is. Form and function need to be based on all users, not just binary gender identities, and not based only on male standards of professionalism.

Yes yes, we're all nasty Colonialists who continue to keep the average Canadian down with our stylish and highly polished jackboots... (which happen to be named after the Strathcona's, but you already knew that right?)

Anyways, I'm not sure what your point is here. We had different uniforms for women, they didn't like that.

So they got to wear the men's uniforms, which didn't fit well.

Now, and this is not a recent development, we're having everybody dress the same. Except this most recent update which my post was about took us from massive and box shaped shirts that need to be tailored to individual body shapes like the DEU shirts to women's and men's cuts for the shirts. We have also given members the option to buy pants and boots that fit the individual member's body, as long as they're blue cargo pants with a gold stripe and have no prominent branding and black boots.

Your last couple of sentences suggests to me you want us to force the women in the RCMP to give up the serge because its a male uniform and go back to what was considered at the time to be appropriate uniform dress for women. I know more than one female member who would be prepared to fight you to the death over that idea.

 

[markppcli]

Considering formal dress for women is acceptable as a suit and pants yet for a man a skirt is not considered acceptable then by definition pants and a suit is gender neutral.

So now cultural standards matter.

I am scottish, just got married in a kilt, doesn’t offend me none.

However that would be forcing a societally inappropriate outfit on men, well going the opposite way is societally acceptable.


I am confused as to what your point is. My point is each job should have one standard, fitness wise and training wise. None of the sexist/ageist double standards which existed previously. Can’t meet it, get out.

My point is we aren’t one job with some standard. We are many jobs with many standards. We have single standards for jobs, and in that standard are clothes meant to fit soldiers. As we expect them all do so their job, regardless of their bodies. So that means we account for things like sex specific physical features and shapes. You’ve also said that a uniform isn’t a fashion statement, that’s a falsehood. Uniforms, especially dress, have always reflected the fashions of the day - Napoleonic Hussars didn’t have that much braid for its practical effect.

Ultimately a service dress uniform should do three things.

Firstly it should present a professional image. So it should be tailored and cut to reflect the body wearing.

Secondly it should instill pride in the member wearing it - part of that means it should look good and reflect what society expects people to wear. Which goes back to one.

Lastly we want it to be appealing to people who see it as a passive recruiting measure. So people at large should see it, like it, and think the people wearing it looks good.

All of that lends itself to reflecting society as a whole, and those cultural standards in the uniform.

 

[PrairieFella]

So now cultural standards matter.


My point t is we aren’t one job with some standard. We are many jobs with many standards. We have single standards for jobs, and in that standard are clothes meant to fit soldiers. As we expect them all do so their job, regardless of their bodies. So that means we account for things like sex specific physical features and shapes. You’ve also said that a uniform isn’t a fashion statement, that’s a falsehood. Uniforms, especially dress, have always reflected the fashions of the day - Napoleonic Hussars didn’t had that much braid for its practical effect.

Ultimately a service dress uniform should do three things.

Firstly it should present a professional image. So it should be tailored and cut to reflect the body wearing.

Secondly it should instill pride in the member wearing it - part of that means it should look good and reflect what society expects people to wear. Which goes back to one.

Lastly we want it to be appealing to people who see it as a passive recruiting measure. So people at large should see it, like it, and think the people wearing it looks good.

All of that lends itself to reflecting society as a whole, and those cultural standards in the uniform.

Hear hear

 

[AmmoTech90]

However that would be forcing a societally inappropriate outfit on men, well going the opposite way is societally acceptable.

With that attitude you're not going to max out leading change.

 

[PrairieFella]

I don't know if Operational dress at NDHQ etc. is going to stay. Some have hinted that it was because of a lack of uniform availability. Given than Logistik is scaling back on DEU because the new Army DEU is arriving in 2026, that's probably why. And they couldn't just say Op Dress for Army because the RCAF and RCN would get their noses out of joint that they still had to wear DEU. You'll see 3B return to the NCR when the new ones are issued.

Now, are they comfortable? Remains to be seen. I think we should redesign our DEU from scratch. The concepts Logistik presented at CANSEC the past two years, from what I saw searching the web, are major throwbacks to WWII British Army uniforms. Put the concept for the "women's" pocketed DEU beside a common picture of Queen Elizabeth II (then Princess), and you'll see a damn near identical tunic. I think we need to consider what an independent Canada with its own identity would dress like rather than putting Millennials and Gen Z etc. in historical outfits. I want to see a modernised dress uniform, emphasis on modernised.

Legit the only thing that matters with dress uniforms beyond general comfort is LCF. The new design looks cool as shit, who caresif it looks similar to a Second World War uniform. If anything, it makes it cooler because its an homage to when we were feared as an Army. What would you suggest if you want something with our own identity? I ask that seriously because I am curious to your perspective.

 

[Kilted]

Yes yes, we're all nasty Colonialists who continue to keep the average Canadian down with our stylish and highly polished jackboots... (which happen to be named after the Strathcona's, but you already knew that right?)

Anyways, I'm not sure what your point is here. We had different uniforms for women, they didn't like that.

So they got to wear the men's uniforms, which didn't fit well.

Now, and this is not a recent development, we're having everybody dress the same. Except this most recent update which my post was about took us from massive and box shaped shirts that need to be tailored to individual body shapes like the DEU shirts to women's and men's cuts for the shirts. We have also given members the option to buy pants and boots that fit the individual member's body, as long as they're blue cargo pants with a gold stripe and have no prominent branding and black boots.

Your last couple of sentences suggests to me you want us to force the women in the RCMP to give up the serge because its a male uniform and go back to what was considered at the time to be appropriate uniform dress for women. I know more than one female member who would be prepared to fight you to the death over that idea.

The reality is that women can fit in clothes made for men, men can't fit in clothes made for women.

I remember Star Trek The Next Generation tried to come up with a gender neutral dress that male actors would wear. I don't think it lasted past the first season. I could just see all the applications for religious exceptions if the CAF tried that.

 

[FSTO]

It’s a uniform, not a personal fashion statement. At this point in time pants and suits are gender neutral.

One uniform, one standard. Can’t meet either you shouldn’t be doing the job.

Pete? Are you LARPING as a Canadian?