Updated Army Service Dress project

[daftandbarmy]

Personally, as a former sea going merchant marine civilian outsider, I think an 8 button tunic on nautical officers (Naval, Civil, Merchant) looks “better”. Canadian Coast Guard officers wear them, and now that they’re officially in the department of defense, perhaps RCN officers could adopt the form.

Keep the 3 button jackets to the senior NCM’s.

But my question is, what’s with the hate-on for square rig? Genuine curiosity.

Almost every allied naval force has a variation on it for junior ratings. So, from the Canadian perspective, what’s with the desire for everyone to dress like, well, officers?

Square rig, when fitted properly has a fair bit of swag to it.

It helps with singing/dancing too

 

[Halifax Tar]

The RCN is not the senior service in Canada - its the Artillery if RMC is not on parade.

Canadian Armed Forces order of precedence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Halifax Tar]

Personally, as a former sea going merchant marine civilian outsider, I think an 8 button tunic on nautical officers (Naval, Civil, Merchant) looks “better”. Canadian Coast Guard officers wear them, and now that they’re officially in the department of defense, perhaps RCN officers could adopt the form.

Keep the 3 6 button jackets to the senior NCM’s.

But my question is, what’s with the hate-on for square rig? Genuine curiosity.

Almost every allied naval force has a variation on it for junior ratings. So, from the Canadian perspective, what’s with the desire for everyone to dress like, well, officers?

Square rig, when fitted properly has a fair bit of swag to it.

FTFY

 

[boredtoon]

I stand by saying this is silly, as we have a perfectly serviceable general service beret. Not that I don’t believe you guys but where can I find this BN?

It's on sharepoint. Just search 'Service dress'. Everything I have said I have gotten from sharepoint, either direct from Regimental polls and slide decks, or DLR 5-4 sldie decks.

 

[markppcli]

I am not arguing for square rig. My wish would be for 8 Button tunics and proper Naval NCM insignia. There are ideas on these means that would in the spirit of this. These are dress items.

Example:
View attachment 96201

Dress not operational? So we’d have two sets of insignia? I feel the same way I did about the change to pips: in a CAF where purple trades are “element neutral” a single set of rank insignia makes a lot of sense.

So you're against the Army changing its DEUs to this throw back ?

No because the Army isn’t changing just to change, the material is no longer being manufactured and that’s necessitating the change. The style of it is cost neutral. You’ll note I’ve posted a few times that changing hats and collar dogs to pre unification for the sake of it doesn’t make sense.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Personally, as a former sea going merchant marine civilian outsider, I think an 8 button tunic on nautical officers (Naval, Civil, Merchant) looks “better”. Canadian Coast Guard officers wear them, and now that they’re officially in the department of defense, perhaps RCN officers could adopt the form.

Keep the 6 button jackets to the senior NCM’s.

But my question is, what’s with the hate-on for square rig? Genuine curiosity.

Almost every allied naval force has a variation on it for junior ratings. So, from the Canadian perspective, what’s with the desire for everyone to dress like, well, officers?

Square rig, when fitted properly has a fair bit of swag to it.

The biggest advantage the square rigging has is it is the quintessential ‘Navy’ look. When civilians think Navy/sailor they think square rig.

The fact we don’t take advantage of that for Naval DEUs is beyond me.

 

[markppcli]

The biggest advantage the square rigging has is it is the quintessential ‘Navy’ look. When civilians think Navy/sailor they think square rig.

The fact we don’t take advantage of that for Naval DEUs is beyond me.

Is that really true ? The civilian bit I mean. I think they think of “sailor outfits” as square rig but mostly for kids / costumes. The association of our Navy and Square Rig is probably just an assume association, or one that exists in people interested in the topic.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Is that really true ? The civilian bit I mean. I think they think of “sailor outfits” as square rig but mostly for kids / costumes. The association of our Navy and Square Rig is probably just an assume association, or one that exists in people interested in the topic.

I watched a local parade last year and the sea cadets went by.

Everyone around me said "Oh look, there goes the Navy!" and started cheering.

The colour guard had 'proper rifles' too, of course, which helped

 

[Eaglelord17]

Is that really true ? The civilian bit I mean. I think they think of “sailor outfits” as square rig but mostly for kids / costumes. The association of our Navy and Square Rig is probably just an assume association, or one that exists in people interested in the topic.

The general public doesn’t really have much contact with the Navy or sailors (of any type). Most their imagery is that of square rigging as that is the most prevalent in the few images they actually have of the Navy.

The Navy has a real image problem, but the other side of it is you can lean into such stereotypes very easily.

One other thing which just came to mind, could retired members soon start wearing the ‘old’ Army DEUs without authorization as it would then be a former DEU outfit?

 

[GK .Dundas]

For want of a better term I've been obsessed with the Falkland's war.
Currently this questionable life choice has me lookin at the Royal Navy odd choice of commanders and why HMS Bristol didn't deploy until later in campaign.
I did say it was an obsession....

 

[boredtoon]

One other thing which just came to mind, could retired members soon start wearing the ‘old’ Army DEUs without authorization as it would then be a former DEU outfit?

No.

"Ceremonial and Service dress (No1 and No3). Former CAF members are not permitted to wear ceremonial or service dress uniforms after release without specific authority."

 

[tomydoom]

No.

"Ceremonial and Service dress (No1 and No3). Former CAF members are not permitted to wear ceremonial or service dress uniforms after release without specific authority."

There is this

 

[FSTO]

Personally, as a former sea going merchant marine civilian outsider, I think an 8 button tunic on nautical officers (Naval, Civil, Merchant) looks “better”. Canadian Coast Guard officers wear them, and now that they’re officially in the department of defense, perhaps RCN officers could adopt the form.

Keep the 6 button jackets to the senior NCM’s.

But my question is, what’s with the hate-on for square rig? Genuine curiosity.

Almost every allied naval force has a variation on it for junior ratings. So, from the Canadian perspective, what’s with the desire for everyone to dress like, well, officers?

Square rig, when fitted properly has a fair bit of swag to it.

I think a jacket for the MS and below that had a square rig flair to it would be fantastic. But then again, I'm just an old fossil screaming at Moby Dick as it smashes my whaler!!

 

[FSTO]

Is that really true ? The civilian bit I mean. I think they think of “sailor outfits” as square rig but mostly for kids / costumes. The association of our Navy and Square Rig is probably just an assume association, or one that exists in people interested in the topic.

I think the Canada is the outlier. I picked navies from around the world and they all have some sort of variable of the square rig for their junior sailors. They are not for kids or for costumes.

Ukraine


UK


Thailand


Nigeria


Argentina


USA

 

[Eaglelord17]

No.

"Ceremonial and Service dress (No1 and No3). Former CAF members are not permitted to wear ceremonial or service dress uniforms after release without specific authority."

The question is would a obsolete service dress uniform still be considered service dress?

 

[Kirkhill]

I believe the intent is to have the default be Army Blue now.

What is Army Blue?

I was always of the belief that the Navy and the Ordnance Corps (arty, eng, commissaries and such) along with the Blues and Royals, all being Royal forces (unlike the gaggle of baronial riff raff in the infantry and cavalry), all wore Royal Blue. Traditionally the Royals wore a shade of indigo that was so dark as to appear black. Indigo was expensive and the richer you were the more you could afford to saturate your gear. A little indigo gives you your square rig collar. A lot gives you your tunic.

 

[markppcli]

I think the Canada is the outlier. I picked navies from around the world and they all have some sort of variable of the square rig for their junior sailors. They are not for kids or for costumes.

Ukraine
View attachment 96209

UK
View attachment 96210

Thailand
View attachment 96211

Nigeria
View attachment 96212

Argentina
View attachment 96213

USA
View attachment 96214

I didn’t say they were - I said that’s the civilian association. I don’t think the average Canada really thinks much about uniforms, maybe the red serge is a national symbol but the idea square rig is ever really thought of seems far fetched. I do t know that any of those uniforms are going to help keep hull techs around if they were told to adopt it though.

 

[Kirkhill]

Was anyone happy with the Rifle Green unibag that was introduced in 1968?

Has anyone been happy with what we've been given since? DEU was a bit of a half assed attempt to right some wrongs.

Finally, uniforms have evolved over the centuries and will continue to evolve and the changes will never satisfy everyone, ever.

Bring back the stock!

 

[dapaterson]

There is this
View attachment 96203

Imagine a group wanting to re enact Army parades in tan DEU.

 

[Kirkhill]

I think the Canada is the outlier. I picked navies from around the world and they all have some sort of variable of the square rig for their junior sailors. They are not for kids or for costumes.

Ukraine
View attachment 96209

UK
View attachment 96210

Thailand
View attachment 96211

Nigeria
View attachment 96212

Argentina
View attachment 96213

USA
View attachment 96214

Forgot one.



Once upon a time Brittania ruled the waves and everybody copied her navy. Including her ancient enemy.

Only in Canada was it felt necessary to discard tradition.

Turnabout is fair play? The Bearskins of the Guards are French.