US Presidential Election 2024 - Trump vs Harris - Vote Hard with a Vengence

[brihard]

Wow, hell of a statement by Dick Cheney. I waited an hour to make sure this got picked up as legit by major media before posting:

 

[Brad Sallows]

Traditional GOP types see more in common with the Dems than with MAGA. That’s telling.

That's just the compassionate-conservative/neocon faction that started to gain prominence during the Bush 41 administration. Since they've been around for over 35 years, it's easy to confuse them with "traditional GOP". The Bush 41/43 neocons have no more entitlement to "GOP" than any other faction.

Nothing has changed in 2 years. The Bush/Cheney gang are the outliers.

Pew Research on polarization and ideology.

Dick Cheney was probably the man most hated by the antiwar left. His endorsement might drive away some of those voters to Green, Libertarian, or None. (I doubt many would vote for Trump.)

 

[Brad Sallows]

I’m only partly talking about Jan 6th. I’m also talking about his months-long campaign to try to pervert justice and defeat the lawful results of the election. You know, the stuff he’s charged for both state and federally, the schemes fraudulent electors are getting convicted and sentenced for and that several of his lawyers are no longer lawyers over? The dozens of vexatious and bad-faith legal actions his side universally lost? The attempts to pressure state executives to turn the election results in their states in his favour? Nor do I accept your blithe dismissal to try to get his Vice President to illegally block or delay the certification of the election. That’s a huge deal, but if you don’t believe me, just look to what Pence himself has said, and his rejection of Trump.

All of that proves that "democracy" is resilient, at least as far as standing up to Trump.

Your contention that there are bigger threats to democratic norms in the U.S. than Trump’s concerted and repeated attempts to defeat the will of the electorate is absolutely laughable. While there are absolutely a myriad of other threats, they pale in comparison to what he attempted and nearly achieved.

All of the threats to which people won't stand up are manifestly worth worrying about more than Trump, for the reason above. The greatest dangers are the erosions which have the active support of politicians, bureaucrats, and media. That should be obvious. In one case people are pushing back to keep things up; in other cases, they are pulling things down.

 

[brihard]

All of that proves that "democracy" is resilient, at least as far as standing up to Trump.

All of the threats to which people won't stand up are manifestly worth worrying about more than Trump, for the reason above. The greatest dangers are the erosions which have the active support of politicians, bureaucrats, and media. That should be obvious. In one case people are pushing back to keep things up; in other cases, they are pulling things down.

I mean, that’s certainly an opinion you’re entitled to. I’m going to remain swayed by the fact that this particular threat to the health of American democracy has so uniquely and extensively attracted such bipartisan consensus from all manner of the most serious and senior elected, appointed, and professional officials, transcending usual party loyalties. While you’re right that various procedural and political safeguards have pushed back and managed to stay resilient, that’s just a measure of how significant the danger is, not how significant it isn’t.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The Cheneys are part of the military industrial complex. They're just pissed because Trump means less profits and no wars. If they carry any weight at all, it's only in their circle of Trump haters. All most republican voters remember is Lizzy doing Pelosi's dirty work and Dick shooting his hunting buddy in the face with a 12 gauge. Her going down in flames in her last election should be proof enough of how much sway she has. If anything their endorsement of Harris and character assassination of Trump might even get Trump some more votes.

 

[Brad Sallows]

I mean, that’s certainly an opinion you’re entitled to. I’m going to remain swayed by the fact that this particular threat to the health of American democracy has so uniquely and extensively attracted such bipartisan consensus from all manner of the most serious and senior elected, appointed, and professional officials, transcending usual party loyalties. While you’re right that various procedural and political safeguards have pushed back and managed to stay resilient, that’s just a measure of how significant the danger is, not how significant it isn’t.

Simple explanations are best. Trump is a threat to their grift and status. Freedom of expression is a threat to their grift and status. Illiberal responses by political establishments - whether to liberal or illiberal provocations from people outside the establishments - are necessarily operating from advantages of resources and political power. It's a grave strategic error to underestimate the ordinary greed and vindictiveness of people with power who are suddenly deprived of it for a while. We don't occupy a unique window in human history during which the governing establishments are controlled by righteous people.

 

[brihard]

Dick Cheney is a horrendous human being. If he were on fire, yes I would piss on him, but mostly just for the satisfaction of doing so, and I’d take my time getting there. Just so nobody thinks I hold him in any esteem whatsoever. Nonetheless, his statement is somewhat illustrative of how wide ranging the rejection of Trump by pretty much the entire mainstream establishment on both sides of the aisle runs. It’s less interesting to me that it’s Dick Cheney saying this, and more that it’s a recently former Republican Vice President saying it. And it corroborates that same rejection by others who worked at (Pence) or near (many) that level on the Republican side.

We can all take that for however much or little we wish. The voters will decide in November.

 

[suffolkowner]

Simple explanations are best. Trump is a threat to their grift and status. Freedom of expression is a threat to their grift and status. Illiberal responses by political establishments - whether to liberal or illiberal provocations from people outside the establishments - are necessarily operating from advantages of resources and political power. It's a grave strategic error to underestimate the ordinary greed and vindictiveness of people with power who are suddenly deprived of it for a while. We don't occupy a unique window in human history during which the governing establishments are controlled by righteous people.

The only way Trump is a threat to anyones grift is because he sucked all the oxygen out of the room

 

[Good2Golf]

Agreed. Imagine any DM or GOC appointment doing that here.

Doing what, not supporting the LPC?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

People are gullible. Anyone that believes Harris is doing a 180 on her lifelong communist doctrine and motives is an idiot. The US is at a tipping point. Four more years of open borders, social program expansion, reparations, tax hikes, natural resource reduction and democrat catch and release for violent offenders, overseen by Soros paid AGs and DAs, will end up either, or a combination of, civil war, a banana republic, an end to the great experiment and state control of every aspect of life. And while people spend their time vilifying Trump and supporting the lawfare being used against him, Harris is cruising to a win that will destroy the US. Partisan short sightedness at its finest.

 

[brihard]

People are gullible. Anyone that believes Harris is doing a 180 on her lifelong communist doctrine and motives is an idiot. The US is at a tipping point. Four more years of open borders, social program expansion, reparations, tax hikes, natural resource reduction and democrat catch and release for violent offenders, overseen by Soros paid AGs and DAs, will end up either, or a combination of, civil war, a banana republic, an end to the great experiment and state control of every aspect of life. And while people spend their time vilifying Trump and supporting the lawfare being used against him, Harris is cruising to a win that will destroy the US. Partisan short sightedness at its finest.

If you think Kamala Harris, or any mainstream democrat in the US, is remotely close to a communist, you need to enjoy more of your retirement with some books cracked open. Any realistically conceivable Democrat dominated US executive government and legislature is still well to the right of most of the politics of America’s western allies. They also have a solidly entrenched Conservative judiciary, and that won’t change any time soon.

 

[QV]

Dick Cheney is a horrendous human being. If he were on fire, yes I would piss on him, but mostly just for the satisfaction of doing so, and I’d take my time getting there. Just so nobody thinks I hold him in any esteem whatsoever. Nonetheless, his statement is somewhat illustrative of how wide ranging the rejection of Trump by pretty much the entire mainstream establishment on both sides of the aisle runs. It’s less interesting to me that it’s Dick Cheney saying this, and more that it’s a recently former Republican Vice President saying it. And it corroborates that same rejection by others who worked at (Pence) or near (many) that level on the Republican side.

We can all take that for however much or little we wish. The voters will decide in November.

Another way of looking at it is you are rooting for the kind of people Dick Cheney cheers on.

 

[QV]

The only way Trump is a threat to anyones grift is because he sucked all the oxygen out of the room

But wait, isn’t Trump a failing businessman? Look, if he was a grifter he’d have taken a salary, not donated it, and there’d be evidence his net worth went up (like the other POTUS’) and not down like it has.

 

[brihard]

Another way of looking at it is you are rooting for the kind of people Dick Cheney cheers on.

Stopped clocks, etc etc. not that I expect great things from you, but that was one of your clumsier efforts.

 

[QV]

Stopped clocks, etc etc. not that I expect great things from you, but that was one of your clumsier efforts.

And I doubt anyone is surprised at your glee to see Cheney’s remark about Trump.

And that remark, BTW, is entirely expected by the likes of Cheney. He’s another reason Trump has the support he does. Well done.

 

[brihard]

And I doubt anyone is surprised at your glee to see Cheney’s remark about Trump.

And that remark, BTW, is entirely expected by the likes of Cheney. He’s another reason Trump has the support he does. Well done.

You have this weird notion that I get gleeful about anything to do with Trump. Far from it. There’s nothing enjoyable about watching a closely allied country on whose stability we depend trying to excise the political equivalent of a late stage cancer. A comment like Cheney’s merely merits a ‘wow’ with slightly raised eyebrows.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The only way Trump is a threat to anyones grift is because he sucked all the oxygen out of the room

He turned both party establishments away from the trough. Many Democrats figured they had the 2016 election won, so their bitterness is understandable. Trump's victory must have prompted some Republicans to realize that it would likely be at least three to four terms before any of them could hope for jammy jobs in the White House. The realization that voters are realigning now and neocons have no home in either party must have them near derangement.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If you think Kamala Harris, or any mainstream democrat in the US, is remotely close to a communist, you need to enjoy more of your retirement with some books cracked open. Any realistically conceivable Democrat dominated US executive government and legislature is still well to the right of most of the politics of America’s western allies. They also have a solidly entrenched Conservative judiciary, and that won’t change any time soon.

She's left of Bernie Sanders, in motivation and belief. She is left of AOC. She favours price controls over free market. Her father was a marxist economist. Socialism, Marxism, communism, call it whatever you want. You can have whatever opinion you want. Open borders, DEI, gender assignment for kids, two tiered justice, to name a few, are all things you appear to be for. These are all democrat programs and policies. You deride Trump ad nauseum and come running to Harris/ Waltz and the democrats defence. You cheer on their lawfare and ignore their election interference. I am diametrically opposed to all of it. And you need to keep your suggestions on my retirement to yourself.

 

[brihard]

She's left of Bernie Sanders, in motivation and belief. She is left of AOC. She favours price controls over free market. Her father was a marxist economist. Socialism, Marxism, communism, call it whatever you want. You can have whatever opinion you want. Open borders, DEI, gender assignment for kids, two tiered justice, to name a few, are all things you appear to be for. These are all democrat programs and policies. You deride Trump ad nauseum and come running to Harris/ Waltz and the democrats defence. You cheer on their lawfare and ignore their election interference. I am diametrically opposed to all of it. And you need to keep your suggestions on my retirement to yourself.

Maybe check the back of your closet for that thicker skin you offered someone the other day. I’ll remain comfortable making suggestions if I think someone has badly lost the plot.

 

[dimsum]

She's left of Bernie Sanders, in motivation and belief. She is left of AOC. She favours price controls over free market. Her father was a marxist economist. Socialism, Marxism, communism, call it whatever you want. You can have whatever opinion you want. Open borders, DEI, gender assignment for kids, two tiered justice, to name a few, are all things you appear to be for. These are all democrat programs and policies. You deride Trump ad nauseum and come running to Harris/ Waltz and the democrats defence. You cheer on their lawfare and ignore their election interference. I am diametrically opposed to all of it. And you need to keep your suggestions on my retirement to yourself.

For someone who frequently says something to the tune of “it’s my opinion”, getting mad about other people’s opinions is an interesting step.