Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]

[brihard]

Or how about we simply post the requirements online along with simple explanations and videos of the standards, and if you choose not too achieve them then you're too lazy or fat to kill people and break their shit in pursuit of the national interest. Piss off and don't become a burden in my rifle section. I don't need someone who cannot motivate themselves to meet the frighteningly low PT standards. Our job is far too important for some feel-good participation-trophy egalitarianism.

 

[PuckChaser]

This format is also based off the CFAT where if the applicant fails the first time they're given one more shot to write it at a later date.

That's what the CAF did before, except without the workout information. You could come back in a few months and rebook the PT test.

 

[George Wallace]

Seriously!  The PT testing was so basic that there really is no need for the CF to create a special training program for applicants to follow to meet the standards for enrolment.

If one failed, all they had to do was go home and start practicing Push ups and Sit ups to improve their strength and do some running to improve their cardio.  No fancy training program is required to ensure applicants can meet the standard.

 

[EME Hopeful]

I agree with the idea that the physical standards are too low and really shouldn't need the extra help.  My earlier post should prove that.  I was just saying that as an idea as a compromise where it possibly causes less resentment.  However like I said earlier, anything I say is solely speculation based on my interview and what I was told by the officer.  I won't rehash everything in that post but simply put, I was dumbfounded when he told me how little push ups some people could do

 

[Towards_the_gap]

I was just saying that as an idea as a compromise where it possibly causes less resentment. 

Who cares?

The only resentment that a PT test failure would be entitled to is resentment at their own lazy, inactive, pampered upbringing, which obviously failed to teach them 2 of the absolute BASIC exercises ie LIE ON FLOOR, PUSH YOURSELF UP ... and SIT ON FLOOR, SIT UPRIGHT. It's not like the CF is asking them to perform a marathon or a complicated gymnastic routine to prove their fitness.

If people cannot do that then they really need to get a f&*^ing grip of their bodies.

 

[Remius]

I was around when they did the transition from pt test.  Pt tests were not done the same way between recruiting centres and that led to many inefficiencies.  One center would do it before the CFAT others would do it at the end of the process. Each center had its own challenges either due to geography or personel.  Testing was often contracted out and each test cost the recruiting system money.  So if you tested up front you paid for people that might fail the CFAT, medical or get a criminal/credit hit.  If you tested after the process then you might have wasted valuable medical and interview slots for a slug. 

A decision was made to risk manage the situatuion by not testing up front and let the school deal with it.  there was also a recognition that people that were highly qualified for in demand trades at the time like Naval electronics, didn't normaly have the most fit people.  It was a damned if you do damned if you don't situation.  also many people who could indeed achieve the min standard up front would also then fail at CFLRS so we wasted our time to begin with.  The min standard leads to a false sense of what it means to be in shape for basic.  Things would often get overlooked like the fact that you will likely be climbing stairs to get back to your room several times a day, pt in the morning as well as dedicated pt periods.  A bit more than the min standard of 19 push ups, sit ups and a step test.

While wanting people to be fit before they join is ideal, I think it is unrealistic.  Why? Demographics and society trends are working against us.  So we can either reject and lament our lack of expertise in certain areas or we can risk manage and bring them to our level.  The CF competes against private industry, local, provincial, national and international organisations.  Especially for in demand hot jobs right now that in some cases, it affect our operability.  We went through this with doctors, techs etc etc.  We need to adapt.  Would you rather spend a few extra weeks bringing someone up to speed or suffer serious operational deffiencies because we decided that someone wasn't fit enough at the time?

I remember that finding a doctor or a suitable NETTP candidate was like discovering oil.  So why not invest a few weeks of training to keep them?  It is probably much easier to get a one of those types up to speed physically than it is to get fit people up to speed on those trades.

Until the recruiting centers get dedicated personel and space to test applicants at the centers when they come in or society gets in shape then I doubt we'll find a suitable solution that is the most efficient. 

 

[Bluebulldog]

Crantor, they already do. The CFRC puts candidates for PRes through fitness testing at their locations as a part of the enrollment process. It would be a simple matter of expanding those test days / number of slots being tested.

I couldn't for the life of me understand that while applying to the PRes years ago I was doing evening runs and push ups / sit ups, yet an applicant to the RegF, would just have to pass a medical.

Fully agree that fitness evaluation should be a part of the process prior to candidates being sent to BMQ.

 

[EME Hopeful]

They seemed to have the space for it at the medical office at the Toronto RC.  Heck, they even had showers and everything in the change rooms

 

[Remius]

Crantor, they already do. The CFRC puts candidates for PRes through fitness testing at their locations as a part of the enrollment process. It would be a simple matter of expanding those test days / number of slots being tested.

I couldn't for the life of me understand that while applying to the PRes years ago I was doing evening runs and push ups / sit ups, yet an applicant to the RegF, would just have to pass a medical.

Fully agree that fitness evaluation should be a part of the process prior to candidates being sent to BMQ.

Unless things have changed, the test isn't done on location.  It was contracted out to various gyms like the YMCA.  Some CFRCs have vast geographic areas that they cover.  It really wasn't that practical.  CF gyms used to administer it but again it was very impractical as well.  Typically we used to process three files to get one candidate.  If you managed to hire 8000 people a year, you potentially tested 24000.  12000 tests that cost the system and slowed it down.

I don't know what the solution is but when you are in a high recruiting drive trying to get numbers and need them as fast as you can you have to risk manage.  Unfortunately PT and other things were streamlined.  When recruiting is down, a more strict approach can be used.

 

[JesseWZ]

This is BS.

Warrior is nothing other than a fix that was implemented to fix the decision to remove the PT test from the Reg Force recruiting process.  That's it, that's all.  The proper fix?

Implement the PT test again BEFORE the mbr is sworn in, and remove Warrior. 

You don't have enough time in yet to understand what you are saying and why it is not correct.

100% agree.

The pay and allowances, flights, meals, quarters, and room and board for a Pl (Company?) sized element amounts to a huge amount of money and positions poorly utilized. We only have so many positions, lets use them to put people into their jobs, not design a forced work-out diet plan for the less motivated.

 

[Bluebulldog]

Unless things have changed, the test isn't done on location.  It was contracted out to various gyms like the YMCA.  Some CFRCs have vast geographic areas that they cover.  It really wasn't that practical.  CF gyms used to administer it but again it was very impractical as well.  Typically we used to process three files to get one candidate.  If you managed to hire 8000 people a year, you potentially tested 24000.  12000 tests that cost the system and slowed it down.

I don't know what the solution is but when you are in a high recruiting drive trying to get numbers and need them as fast as you can you have to risk manage.  Unfortunately PT and other things were streamlined.  When recruiting is down, a more strict approach can be used.

Depends.

When I went in in 1994, it was done at the YMCA in Hamilton, a few blocks away from CFRC Hamilton.

When I went back in in 2009, I did the fit test right in the CFRC in Barrie ON.

Agreed, it adds a ton of front end bottleneck, but if you weigh out the costs of having a candidate in the Warrior platoon until fit enough to move on in training, vs. additional testing at the entry level prior to enrollment, it might even just be a wash.....

 

[Eye In The Sky]

So if an applicant is competitive in everything other then their physical fitness (education,work experience,maturity), they should be cast aside for other less suitable applicants?

I'm all for physical endurance being considered in the application process, but not if it means cutting out qualified applicants.

You and many others are not getting the point here. 

IF YOU ARE NOT PHYSCIALLY FIT TO THE BARE MINIMUM STANDARD...MINIMUM STANDARD...YOU ARE NOT A SUITABLE APPLICANT.

It really, really can't be explained any more simply than that. 

 

[Remius]

Agreed, it adds a ton of front end bottleneck, but if you weigh out the costs of having a candidate in the Warrior platoon until fit enough to move on in training, vs. additional testing at the entry level prior to enrollment, it might even just be a wash.....

The three biggest producing centers at the time I was there (Ottawa, Halifax and QC) didn't test on location. 

This is the thing (quoted above).  Everybody that was tested cost money.  There was a cost per person paid to whoever was contracted out to do the test.  the recruiting system would also get charged for no shows.  Also of note, that most people didn't know, was that out of town applicants were paid mileage, parking and in most cases lunch to come get processed.  So if we use the 8000 hires plus the 12,000 processed,  it is potentially 24000 pt tests (depends on where the test was in the processing cycle) and 20% being out of town that's 6800 paid for mileage and meals and parking.  Possibly twice if they have to return for any part of the test (which wasn't uncommon).

Now weigh that with the fact that a percentage of recruits would fail the PT test at St-Jean, regardless of them passing the PT test at the recruiting stage.  The difference, it was calculated was negligible as far as testing at the front end may not even be worth it.

As well when looking at keeping people in that had skills we could use, adding weeks to the course was seen as worth it since it could be months or even a year in order to get a replacement for that particular position.  And since you already invested in that person, the hope is to get them to where you need them rather than send them home since you already paid for travel, storage etc.

Not only that but most people that washed out would not return, losing out on key trades.  It was surmised that by adding the training they would stay on and be retained.

It would be interesting to see all the data on the success or failure of the system to see if it is indeed worth it.

I do however remember the uproar it caused amongst us at my CFRC.  None of us were pleased with the change.

 

[BeyondTheNow]

So if an applicant is competitive in everything other then their physical fitness (education,work experience,maturity), they should be cast aside for other less suitable applicants?

Speaking as one applicant to another, the way I understand it is that if there are certain components required to be successful upto and including the physical upon entry to BMQ and ANY of them are not met, then the candidate is not suitable. All the puzzle pieces make up the big picture of the applicant. And in my specific instance, I've literally had 2+ yrs to meet everything asked of me during the process, since I knew of the physical requirements as soon as I applied. If I cannot meet standard by the time I get to basic (assuming I do) then I have no one to blame but myself.

I understand your point that there should be a second chance for failure of the physical just like there is for other elements of the hiring process. I just don't happen to agree. Since you are offered a job beFORE you do the physical, that's a gift, IMO. It's up to the applicant to be ready.

 

[NavComm87]

I will be the first to admit that I did not know how to work out properly before basic. PT has never come easily to me, but I have been given the tools to work on this deficiency.

Having said this, I did not spend my last few months as a civilian bumming around playing video games - I built up my cardio. Unfortunately, I didn't do enough.

One key aspect of WFT is that once the candidate hits platoon, they are better equipped with knowledge and experience of residing at CFLRS, that they are usually seen as a benefit to a new platoon.

Regardless of what anyone's belief on this forum is, warrior will remain, at least until change of leadership at CFLRS.

*edited for typo*

 

[PuckChaser]

One key aspect of WFT is that once the candidate hits platoon, they are better equipped with knowledge and experience of residing at CFLRS, that they are usually seen as a benefit to a new platoon.

So instead of moving on to become a professional soldier, the sunny side of the story is that you're now a professional recruit? You're at BMQ, you don't need students teaching students, thats why you have instructors.

 

[Emilio]

You and many others are not getting the point here. 

IF YOU ARE NOT PHYSICALLY FIT TO THE BARE MINIMUM STANDARD...MINIMUM STANDARD...YOU ARE NOT A SUITABLE APPLICANT.

It really, really can't be explained any more simply than that.

So if there is an applicant who went to culinary school and wants to be a cook, he/she should be barred from entering because he/she can't do a couple pushups.

Or an applicant who has a degree in say English and wants to be and RMS, he/she too should be rejected because of their physical endurance. Even if their job in the CAF is not one which is very physical?

If we can retain more suitable applicants while building up their PT, then is it not a small price to pay. Now if the job is tough and physical endurance is expected of the applicant, then I'm all for harder more realistic physical standards.

But for now lets not rush to cast out the WFT, even if it makes us shake our head.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

So if there is an applicant who went to culinary school and wants to be a cook member of the CAF, he/she should be barred from entering because he/she can't do a couple pushups.

YES

Or an applicant who has a degree in say English and wants to be and RMS a CAF member, he/she too should be rejected because of their physical endurance. Even if their job in the CAF is not one which is very physical?

YES

If we can retain more suitable applicants while building up their PT, then is it not a small price to pay. Now if the job is tough and physical endurance is expected of the applicant, then I'm all for harder more realistic physical standards.

But for now lets not rush to cast out the WFT, even if it makes us shake our head.

Listen, people have tried to be nice and tell you that you are out to fuckin' lunch.  Instead of trying to convince a bunch of people you are RIGHT, go read about something called Universality of Service.

NOW...to counter all your comments about a cook who can't do pushups, or the person who can't run but wants to be RMS clerk...

A major flood happens.  CAF is called in. Sandbags, hour after hour after hour.  This has happened.  How many 'cooks and RMS clerks' do you think we should allow in the CAF below the MINIMUM fitness standards, that won't be able to fulfill BASIC military duties in a domestic operation such as this
?
Or..a hurricance?  How many CAF members should be "undeployable" because they are weak.  It happened; Hurriance Juan, 2003 in Halifax.  CAF was called in.

Or..an ice storm? Again, this happened.  How many "below the MINIMUM FITNESS LEVEL" people do you think can hack just a simple DOMESTIC OP? 

Just where do you draw the line?  Let them in and then hope they can meet the MINIMUM fitness standard?  Then try to release them.  ARs take place, PYs and $$ are wasted.  Meanwhile all these people are taken "off the line before" a gust of wind blows, a dyke starts to crumble or a single piece of hail hits the ground.

And those are just DOMESTIC operations.  No combat load, no ballistic plates/vests, no platoon kit, NOTHING.  Just their out of shape bodies in combats and maybe a camelbak!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    You know what these "bare minimum" people will do?  They will either break or break down.

You are wrong.  WRONG.  Stop trying to paint a loaf of shit yellow and convince us all it is a banana, we aren't going to take a bite. 

 

[BeyondTheNow]

So if there is an applicant who went to culinary school and wants to be a cook, he/she should be barred from entering because he/she can't do a couple pushups.

Or an applicant who has a degree in say English and wants to be and RMS, he/she too should be rejected because of their physical endurance. Even if their job in the CAF is not one which is very physical?

If we can retain more suitable applicants while building up their PT, then is it not a small price to pay. Now if the job is tough and physical endurance is expected of the applicant, then I'm all for harder more realistic physical standards.

But for now lets not rush to cast out the WFT, even if it makes us shake our head.

I made a comment a bit ago towards a user who was upset that their son did poorly on the CFAT. The standards weren't appropriate, or whatever. The user hinted towards making the test easier. So by your assessment, the CF should lower their standards for the physical as well? How about the medical? Maybe even relax expectations of criminal activities? At what point does the line get drawn on what standards will and WON'T be accepted, regardless of how well the individual may actually be able to perform the specific job?


Edit: (Apologies Eye In The Sky, as I was posting while you were as well. I raised a point similar to one of yours.)

 

[EME Hopeful]

So if there is an applicant who went to culinary school and wants to be a cook, he/she should be barred from entering because he/she can't do a couple pushups.

Or an applicant who has a degree in say English and wants to be and RMS, he/she too should be rejected because of their physical endurance. Even if their job in the CAF is not one which is very physical?

If we can retain more suitable applicants while building up their PT, then is it not a small price to pay. Now if the job is tough and physical endurance is expected of the applicant, then I'm all for harder more realistic physical standards.

But for now lets not rush to cast out the WFT, even if it makes us shake our head.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I have no experience beyond the application to join) but isn't the idea behind the CF is that every member is a solider first and their trade second?  As in your trade might be vehicle tech but you're still a solider first and when called upon in emergencies or dire situations you would still have to preform the "basics" or "infantry" role.  In which case, you would fail miserably if you can't even meet the minimum standards which even I believe is too low and I'm still on the outside looking in