Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]

[Jarnhamar]

I still like my idea.

Re-institute a PT test for applicants.

If someone fails the test they can either retry in 6 months or have the option of paying out of their own pocket for "warrior camp". If at the end of the camp they're able to pass the fitness test and make it half way through basic training without VRing then they get their money back that they paid.

My work here is done.

 

[Remius]

I am offended by your offense.  ;D

Time to adapt to this new reality and implement the red/yellow card system. 

Everybody win!

 

[Remius]

I still like my idea.

Re-institute a PT test for applicants.

If someone fails the test they can either retry in 6 months or have the option of paying out of their own pocket for "warrior camp". If at the end of the camp they're able to pass the fitness test and make it half way through basic training without VRing then they get their money back that they paid.

My work here is done.

There might actually be a money making scheme in that you know...

Wanna join?  We'll put you through a rigourous pt program that simulates what you will experience on basic.  runs, weighted marches.  Included is a three day camping trip that will simulate conditions you will face on course. Gauranteed to get you through basic training or you get your money back*.

*Money back guarantee does not include medical RTU, release for attitude, compassionate reasons or training failures other than PT.  BTM releases (Back to Mommy) excluded as well

 

[Journeyman]

Time to adapt to this new reality and implement the red/yellow card system. 

Just like round-ball fag er, non-rugby players, if the red/yellow card system was implemented, the kids at your Pre-CF Fat Camp could drop to the ground clutching their ankles in the hope of a medical pension before the national anthem was done......just like soccer players.  :nod:

 

[Emilio]

You're still not listening/understanding (and I'm assuming that you're including yourself in your "proven worth through education" category).

Fitness and intellectual ability are two separate factors -- there are no transferable credits.

We will not take someone in the infantry who cannot run a block and do two push-ups, but "dude, he really aced that internet trivia game; he's brilliant," any more than we're going let someone maintain aircraft life-support or technically-challenging equipment who is dumber than a post, but "man, you should see him do chin-ups -- he's so buff!"

You are likely correct; "a person who lacks motivation will not perform well in any job, especially the CF."  But that motivation must apply to all of the areas we are looking at, not merely the one(s) where you, for some reason, believe that you meet the grade.


I can't believe that this is such a difficult concept.  :not-again:

I do not view my self as having proved anything, in fact I upgrade my grade 12 and work out feeling like the CAF is far from my reach. I see the Army as a goal, and a career full of incredible opportunities. I have failed many, many, many times, I'm not entitled to anything and, if I get rejected it's my own fault.

And I agree a rifleman who can't do two pushups shouldn't be employed, but as I stated twice already I also feel a rifleman who can only do 20 pushups shouldn't be employed either. That is why I am for tougher physical standards depending on the job.

In regards to hiring the most desirable applicant I'm all for weighing their physical endurance, If there are two applicants both with the same credentials but one is more fit then YES hire him/her. I'm saying which is what said before, use physical endurance as measurement during the application process, I'm saying to take testing more seriously. But also be mindful of the other traits an applicant has experience,educations,maturity and measure them as well.

 

[Remius]

But also be mindful of the other traits an applicant has experience,educations,maturity and measure them as well.

Um, we actually do, do that.

 

[Emilio]

Um, we actually do, do that.

Yes but using them along with measuring physical standards. Meaning actually testing the applicants physical endurance in compinations with their other attributes, to determine there desirability.

 

[Remius]

The problem I used to run into as well was attitude.

I would get the "But I only missed one push up!" or "I can't believe I can't get in because of one sit up!!!".

Wrong attitude. 

It isn't that you missed one push up or one sit up.

It's that you didn't get us the the 19 we require.  18 push ups might as well be 1 push up.

 

[Remius]

Yes but using them along with measuring physical standards.

As I said.  We do, do that. 

 

[Bluebulldog]

, I'm saying to take testing more seriously. But also be mindful of the other traits an applicant has experience,educations,maturity and measure them as well.

This is perhaps where the disjoin in your take on things is.

Experience: ( means very little, unless being recruited as skilled trade). The CF will train you to do it their way regardless.

Education: Again, will show a baseline of knowledge. Unless recruiting into a relevant occupation like Doctor, etc, actually has little bearing beyond confirmation of a level of knowledge achieved.

Maturity: Not able to be tested by any known metric I'm aware of.

Those three things are fleshed out in the interview process to determine suitability, but to be fair, the CF has its processes where its members are shaped to a standard.

You appear to be looking at recruiting into the CF like a firm civvy side would "recruit" new staff. This isn't the case.

 

[Emilio]

The problem I used to run into as well was attitude.

I would get the "But I only missed one push up!" or "I can't believe I can't get in because of one sit up!!!".

Wrong attitude. 

It isn't that you missed one push up or one sit up.

It's that you didn't get us the the 19 we require.  18 push ups might as well be 1 push up.

Sorry I clarified my post, but are you reffering to the reserves or regular force? From what I understand they are in before the test at St.Jean?

 

[Emilio]

This is perhaps where the disjoin in your take on things is.

Experience: ( means very little, unless being recruited as skilled trade). The CF will train you to do it their way regardless.

Education: Again, will show a baseline of knowledge. Unless recruiting into a relevant occupation like Doctor, etc, actually has little bearing beyond confirmation of a level of knowledge achieved.

Maturity: Not able to be tested by any known metric I'm aware of.

Those three things are fleshed out in the interview process to determine suitability, but to be fair, the CF has its processes where its members are shaped to a standard.

You appear to be looking at recruiting into the CF like a firm civvy side would "recruit" new staff. This isn't the case.

Ok I understand, all I ways saying is that we should re-introduce the PT test. Along with being mindful of experience if it is relevant to the trade, and education again if it is beneficial to the trade.

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[Journeyman]

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[Eye In The Sky]

Eye in The Sky your point is absolutely valid, but how can you guarantee that an applicant who goes through basic without WFT will not become out of shape in the future, or specifically during the time of a domestic operation.

I can't.  But I can guarantee that there are things like the CofC, CAF fitness policy, policy for poor performance, etc that are in place to correct that situation in things like DAODs.

Why those standards aren't always enforced is a topic for a completely different thread called "Leadership Failures".  :2c:

BTW...there ARE different PT tests/fitness tests required above and beyond EXPRES and FORCE.  SAR Techs, Fire Fighters, SOF, etc have their own trade specific PT test.  The FORCE test is the minimum...minimum standard.

You are applying for ACISS.  I bet you will feel different once you are humping a ruck and your talky-talk kit around on an EX and someone taps out because they aren't up to the physical rigours and instead of getting an easy 2 or 3 day go in the CP, you end up humping your talky-talk kit around with a dismounted platoon.

Do some research for shytes and giggles and go look at the US Air Force entrance PT test and the level of progression you need to achieve to stay in their Basic trg.  Then compare to the current BS low levels at CFLRS.  And then add to the fact that the EXPRES test was a bleedin' joke to start off with, consider the people who couldn't pass that....and now ask yourself if you want to be in the trench with the dude/dudette who 'couldn't do those pushups or finish that forced march but...that's ok.".

 

[Scott]

Jesus wept...

 

[marinemech]

here is how i look at it, you signed a contract, only ways out is with something broken, or to be thrown out

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Jesus wept...

When he saw our low PT standards are CFLRS?  Don't blame him.

I was at CFLRS (not as a Recruit...) when this whole smozzle started in the fall of '06 and saw the first handful of ppl on "RFT" as it was called and was around to see some of the folks that graced the Green doors following the removal of the entrance PT test.  Example - the pers who was injured BEFORE the Week 0 EXPRES test; from carrying their personal belonging up the stairs to, IIRC, the 7th floor.

It is time to fix what never should have been broken in the first place.

 

[PuckChaser]

You are applying for ACISS.  I bet you will feel different once you are humping a ruck and your talky-talk kit around on an EX and someone taps out because they aren't up to the physical rigours and instead of getting an easy 2 or 3 day go in the CP, you end up humping your talky-talk kit around with a dismounted platoon.

Oh man, I didn't even realize he may end up in my section one day.  :facepalm:

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Oh man, I didn't even realize he may end up in my section one day.  :facepalm:

An early "Secret Santa" gift!  ;D

 

[Jarnhamar]

I think what our up and coming brothers and sisters may not realize yet is just how important fitness is while on course and how much it can inadvertently effect. 
It's hard to wrap your mind around what you're learning in class when you're throwing up every morning, kilometers behind the main group getting yelled at, looking for pot holes to "trip in", looking for reasons to get out of painful embarrassing PT.  it throws your whole day off.

I've seen someone eat $20 + worth of vending machine chocolate bars in an attempt to make themselves "sick" to get out of PT for a couple of days.  I'm willing to bet anyone who's gone through basic has at least a few examples of the lengths people will go to get out of PT.

You could have an IQ of 211 but it looses it's significance when every morning sucks for you, you can't get your shit together and your peers are calling you a piece of shit and a blade because you can't keep up and they're being punished for it.  Psychologically it has a HUGE impact on your performance.

Someones previous experience doesn't matter if they quite because they can't handle it physically.