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Voluntary Release (VR) from Reserve - anytime [Merged]

Emilio said:
So if there is an applicant who went to culinary school and wants to be a cook, he/she should be barred from entering because he/she can't do a couple pushups.

Let me share a story with all you 'but it's just a couple of pushups' believers.

Summer 2010, Panjwai - Casualty replacements are starting to arrive to replace the dudes we've had killed or wounded. One lad shows up 2 days before a large, airmobile op where we were going to have to carry ALOT of weight. Myself and the other sergeant take this new guy to the training lanes we had set up and start showing him the ropes, how to look for IED's, how to use the metal detector, how to prod, etc etc.

After the second day of trying to get him switched on enough that he wouldn't kill someone or himself, we gave up, and left him behind with the troop HQ as we deployed on this operation. Want to know what let him down? What made us think 'he will not be in the game out there'.

HIS LEVEL OF FITNESS.

Now, why the hell should the CF accept people who cannot meet a simple, basic standard? Should we let body builders with grade 9 in because 'he can lift a lot of weight, and it's just one grade'????

It seems the collective wisdom of those of us with a heck of a lot of experience is saying 'keep the standards as they have been for years', yet the only ones who think WFT is a good idea are the ones who either aren't in yet or aren't done BMQ.  Telling.
 
I haven't done a lot of courses.  I'm a 2Lt.  And I did my 3rd course this past summer....BMOQ-Land....formerly CAPs.

Lots of people on there who were in poor physical shape.  But here's the thing:

IT WAS THEIR THIRD COURSE.

If they're not convinced after Basic to get themselves into shape, when are they going to do it?  And lots of them are STILL not in shape.
 
Towards_the_gap said:
It seems the collective wisdom of those of us with a heck of a lot of experience is saying 'keep the standards as they have been for years', yet the only ones who think WFT is a good idea are the ones who either aren't in yet or aren't done BMQ.  Telling.

Hey... don't generalize all of us "who aren't in yet or aren't done yet" into the group who believe its necessary to drop standards........  Cause I for one am not.  Hell I believe that a PT should be done in the application process and that it should have an effect on how highly you're graded as a candidate.

Like I said earlier, I was dumbfounded when I was told by my interviewing officer I would be surprised how many people couldn't even do 4 proper push ups in a row
 
I'm not for lowering the standards in fact as I stated before I'm all for tougher more realistic physical requirements for certain jobs, while maintaining the WFT for less strenuous jobs.

Eye in The Sky your point is absolutely valid, but how can you guarantee that an applicant who goes through basic without WFT will not become out of shape in the future, or specifically during the time of a domestic operation.

And what about an applicant who goes through WFT learns a healthier lifestyle, has more qualifications and becomes more suitable for the operation. Should that person not have been hired?

I firmly believe that a person who lacks motivation will not perform well in any job, especially the CF. But if a person has proved their worth through other means such as higher education, should he/she not be given a chance?
You know what these "bare minimum" people will do?  They will either break or break down.

How can you say this? Your generalizing a entire group of people because of their physical endurance. One lesson I wish I never had to learn is that mental strength might = physical strength, but physical strength does not always = mental strength.
 
Emilio said:
How can you say this? Your generalizing a entire group of people because of their physical endurance. One lesson I wish I never had to learn is that mental strength might = physical strength, but physical strength does not always = mental strength.

Which part of extensive experience and collective wisdom did you miss in TtG's post.

You're not dealing with relatively new folks on here. You are dealing with some individuals who have seen literally 100s of troops perform, or under perform in those circumstances. You are posting in the abstract, without any actual frame of reference for your arguments.

Universality of Service is one of the things that indeed bind the CF together. To create a sliding scale standard degrades that, and the CF as a whole.

 
I think it is more about adapting to the times.  Our society is out of shape and it isn't getting better.  On one hand we want fit people to apply, but on the other that pool is shrinking.  As I mentioned, even people who met the min standard were failing the PT test in St-Jean.

Recruiting for the CF isn't a passive activity.  It can't be, it needs to be proactive.  This is the challenge. 

I think the Force Test is a good start.  It is universal.  No differences between age or gender.  When the CF recruiting system tested, the test was not the same.  It was a step test and not the express test shuttle run.  Which may explain the failures when they got there.  I don't know.

So the cunnundrum is: Do we take people and bring them to our standard or do we try and find those that meet the standard in an ever shrinking pool?  Remember, the standard hasn't changed, only where we test for it and the fact that we have a program to try and get them to that standard.  One way or another, after BMQ they have met the standard for UofS.     
 
Excellent point Crantor.

Unfortunately the "Playstation Generation" is by far in poor shape, even in the late teens and early 20s compared to 15-20 years ago.

The failure of the school system to prioritize gym, and fitness activities is now coming home to roost. Type 2 diabetes is more prevalent in teenagers and early 20s than it has ever been historically. This is due to bad diet, poor fitness, and an overall sedentary lifestyle.

Sadly though, the attitude of some who have grown up in a "no one fails" society, doesn't exactly mesh well with service requirements, or real life for that matter.
 
IMO, doing something along the lines of the US Delayed Entry Program may be worth while. The participants show up at their Recruiting Office X amount of times a month and do various things to prepare them for Basic Training, including PT; this continues until they are sworn in and shipped off to Basic Training.

It would take a commitment on the CFRCs to have some personal available to carry out these activities as well as coordinate for a facility(such as a gym when required). Some locations are near military bases with PSP staff(such Toronto, Edmonton, etc), while others are not so that may be a issue, but it wouldn't take too much IMO to have a MCpl(and above) take people out on a run, do some push ups, etc outdoors.   



 
As a longer term solution that might be the way to go but, it brings up liability issues, having qualified personel and appropriate facilities.  Treasury board guidelines really screw us over when you have to pay for mileage, meals and parking for people to come in.  Massive overhaul on how we recruit and our relationship with other stake holders would be needed.

I do like the idea though.
 
I actually think the "playstation generation"  isn't in any worse shape than  people were 20 years ago. 

I actually think there is more emphasis and interest in fitness now.  Look at all the interest in the Spartan Races, tough mudders, crossfit, going to the gym, running.  There is a lot of people out there who lead fit healthy lifestyles. It's everywhere. I think unfit people are just looking for an excuse.  It's easy to blame video games and a sedimentary life style.  I graduated highschool in 1997 and took gym every year. Gym was brutal, in a shitty lazy way. Our teacher would throw us a basketball and sit in her office, more than half the students would just stand around, natives would try to pop the basketball or kick it into the roof.  Things weren't better at all 15-20 years ago in my neck of the woods.


I just can't get behind the theory that people are less fit today thus we should lower our expectations.  Someone in this thread (bravely) mentioned that it took them 5 months to pass the basic fitness standard in the CF. 
Mylene Paquette is 36 years old and it took her just over for months to row across the Atlantic..

Not "knowing" how to work out isn't a great excuse either (in generally not directed at the person who mentioned this here).  It's 2013, if you go on the internet and search "getting in shape" you'll have 50'000 web pages on how to loose weight and get fit. There's probably just as many web sites about getting in shape for the military.

We need to stop holding peoples hands and treating them like children. It doesn't take very much initiative to do a little research and put some effort into something like this.



When someone goes to warrior platoon what exactly happens in terms of what they are taught and who their instructors are?  Do we have qualified personal fitness trainers ,dietitians and the like teaching the science of getting in shape or is it some dude like me standing by the desert fridge telling people to put the slice of cake back?


If you want to join the police you have to pay out of your pocket to do the ATT testing and then, correct me if I'm wrong, you have to pay for your police course.  Maybe if someone is THAT out of shape we should make them pay for a 2-3 month boot camp out of their own pocket- if they pass then pay them back or something.
 
ObedientiaZelum said:
If you want to join the police you have to pay out of your pocket to do the ATT testing and then, correct me if I'm wrong, you have to pay for your police course.

In Emergency Services, at least where I worked, as part of the screening process candidates are required to submit proof of successful physical ability testing.



 
Emilio said:
So if there is an applicant who went to culinary school and wants to be a cook, he/she should be barred from entering because he/she can't do a couple pushups.
My friend, not only do you seem to know not a whole heck of a lot about the military, there are professional cooks out there who work in high-speed, fast-paced commercial kitchens who don't want weaklings around, either - cooking for 50-100 people isn't quite like making an omelet for you and a buddy.

As to the general thrust of the thread, I agree with those saying "make sure they can pass BEFORE we take them on."
 
OZ:  It is a fact that kids in this day and age are getting far less exercise than they did 15-20-25-30 years ago.  A new study has shown the average youth today takes on average a full minute more than youth  30 years ago did.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/kids-less-fit-than-parents-worldwide-1.2432307

It isn't just excuses it's lifestyle changes on broader level.  There is also a trend that kids don't meet up as much either, because they meet up online.  Parents also don't want their kids going outside alone either without supervision despite crime stats dropping.  We've bubble wrapped kids.  Schools are banning balls, tag, king of the hill etc etc.  Playstations, xbox, PVRs, On demand TV (heck I used to watch TV when a program aired and when it didn't I had to go find something else to do, like go outside).  Interest in spartan races or the odd mutant swimmer are not an indication that things are normal.  Look at who is actually interested.  Mostly people that are already fit. And teh odd person trying it but then reverts to couch potato mode does not count either.

Also, we are bombarded with unhealthy food, additives fast food etc etc.  When a 2l Bottle of pop costs 2$ and a 2L carton of milk costs 5-6$, there is a problem.

My understanding about the holding platoon is that they are with PSP staff and they are monitered by dieticians as well.  They are taught how to make lifestyle changes.
 
Emilio said:
So if there is an applicant who went to culinary school and wants to be a cook, he/she should be barred from entering because he/she can't do a couple pushups.

Or an applicant who has a degree in say English and wants to be and RMS, he/she too should be rejected because of their physical endurance. Even if their job in the CAF is not one which is very physical?

If we can retain more suitable applicants while building up their PT, then is it not a small price to pay. Now if the job is tough and physical endurance is expected of the applicant, then I'm all for harder more realistic physical standards.

But for now lets not rush to cast out the WFT, even if it makes us shake our head.

You raise a valid point.  If the only shortfall that an otherwise qualified candidate has is his his/her sub-standard level of fitness, then we should be able to recruit him/her and fix that.  However, the trouble with your argument is that admission to the CF is very competitive and we're not in the business of giving everybody a chance, especially if we don't need to.  Why select personnel who are less fit, when there are other candidates who are just as qualified, but fit as well?  For every culinary school graduate who can't do a few push-ups, there is at least one other who can.

What cannot be compromised and on which I think all of us can agree, is that CF members need to be physically fit. 

Looking at your examples, being a cook in the CF can be very physical.  Moving a large pot of hot soup with a heaving deck beneath you can take a bit of strength.  Even an RMS clerk can be required to pick up a rifle and in the Navy, RMS clerks can act as casualty clearers, fight fires or be part of a shoring party in damage control - all very physical activities. 

Keep also in mind that the minimum standard is only a starting point.  Hopefully, we can do better than that. 
 
ObedientiaZelum said:
I actually think the "playstation generation"  isn't in any worse shape than  people were 20 years ago. 

I actually think there is more emphasis and interest in fitness now.  Look at all the interest in the Spartan Races, tough mudders, crossfit, going to the gym, running.  There is a lot of people out there who lead fit healthy lifestyles. It's everywhere. I think unfit people are just looking for an excuse.  It's easy to blame video games and a sedimentary life style.  I graduated highschool in 1997 and took gym every year. Gym was brutal, in a shitty lazy way. Our teacher would throw us a basketball and sit in her office, more than half the students would just stand around, natives would try to pop the basketball or kick it into the roof.  Things weren't better at all 15-20 years ago in my neck of the woods.


I just can't get behind the theory that people are less fit today thus we should lower our expectations.  Someone in this thread (bravely) mentioned that it took them 5 months to pass the basic fitness standard in the CF. 
Mylene Paquette is 36 years old and it took her just over for months to row across the Atlantic..

Not "knowing" how to work out isn't a great excuse either (in generally not directed at the person who mentioned this here).  It's 2013, if you go on the internet and search "getting in shape" you'll have 50'000 web pages on how to loose weight and get fit. There's probably just as many web sites about getting in shape for the military.

We need to stop holding peoples hands and treating them like children. It doesn't take very much initiative to do a little research and put some effort into something like this.



When someone goes to warrior platoon what exactly happens in terms of what they are taught and who their instructors are?  Do we have qualified personal fitness trainers ,dietitians and the like teaching the science of getting in shape or is it some dude like me standing by the desert fridge telling people to put the slice of cake back?


If you want to join the police you have to pay out of your pocket to do the ATT testing and then, correct me if I'm wrong, you have to pay for your police course.  Maybe if someone is THAT out of shape we should make them pay for a 2-3 month boot camp out of their own pocket- if they pass then pay them back or something.

Great post.

Sadly the health stats don't agree.

http://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/obesity/facts.htm


http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-229-x/2009001/status/dia-eng.htm

You can't get behind the "theory"....well it's actually a theorem which is being proven by the stats and examples.

Gym is no longer a mandatory subject, and your example of so-called gym class at the secondary school level is a prime example of what many students receive even when they elect to take it.

You were the exception, rather than the rule. I would venture a guess that your drive and initiative indeed contributed to your fitness level. I am not saying that ALL late teens and early 20s are an example of this trend, but sadly, it is rising.

The emphasis of fitness in our society has less to do with it being popular by the masses, than it does with people with a modicum of intelligence realizing that their lifestyle now demands an actual fitness routine, since it has been deleted from everyday life. In fact, those that are taking up these contests, and hitting the gym are more often people in their late 20's and early 30s who have realized that a change is necessary.

http://toughmudder.com/press-room/tough-mudder-facts-and-figures/

Tough mudder average age was 29.

In 1994 when I first joined the CF there was no "Warrior Platoon" Fat camp. The fact that it has become a necessity for new recruits to meet the minimum standard is quite telling.
 
Emilio said:
I firmly believe that a person who lacks motivation will not perform well in any job, especially the CF. But if a person has proved their worth through other means such as higher education, should he/she not be given a chance?
You're still not listening/understanding (and I'm assuming that you're including yourself in your "proven worth through education" category).

Fitness and intellectual ability are two separate factors -- there are no transferable credits.

We will not take someone in the infantry who cannot run a block and do two push-ups, but "dude, he really aced that internet trivia game; he's brilliant," any more than we're going let someone maintain aircraft life-support or technically-challenging equipment who is dumber than a post, but "man, you should see him do chin-ups -- he's so buff!"

You are likely correct; "a person who lacks motivation will not perform well in any job, especially the CF."  But that motivation must apply to all of the areas we are looking at, not merely the one(s) where you, for some reason, believe that you meet the grade.


I can't believe that this is such a difficult concept.  :not-again:
 
Journeyman said:
I can't believe that this is such a difficult concept.  :not-again:

For a generation of individuals who have never "failed" , and that everyone get's to contribute in their own "special" way.......it is staggeringly difficult.

I am faced with hiring many of these folks every year..... :brickwall:
 
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