Volunteer unpaid Militia idea (split from Reserve role thread)

[The Bread Guy]

I am suggesting that 300,000 unpaid volunteers, with a knowledge of military organization, some map and compass skills, rudimentary weapons handling skills and an ability to communicate and drive vehicles off road would have two primary benefits:

They would add to the pool of organized local volunteers available in the event of a local disaster or crisis and,
They would provide a recruiting pool in which "real" soldiers could be found for A,B,C or Reg service.

Sort of like this for adults who can drive vehicles off road?

Sorry, I'm with EITS on this one:  no $ = no draw.

I also have to agree with those saying it'll be hard to draw unpaid volunteers to help defend & protect because we haven't had a load of wars on our soil, unlike a lot of places with home guards and big post-conscription reserve forces.  I'm guessing volunteer auxiliary cops & firefighters generally do it to protect their home/families and their neighbours' homes/families from from threats you can put a finger on.  Much harder to motivate on a grander scale.

The reason high school military co-op programs draw is (based on old experience teaching on them and talking to folks who still do) is because it's one of the few co-ops that pay, and reasonably well at that.

Also, I don't think we need another layer of miliary/para-military infrastructure competing for resources with layers already in place. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Well the Rangers are pretty close to a "unpaid reservist" I am not sure how much they get, but I suspect it ain't much. We also have Cadets and their leaders. We had the Pacific Coast Rangers out here, but the reality is that without a distinct mission, you aren't going to be able to recruit volunteers. As I had to explain to several organizations, volunteers don't work for free. They all want/need something. If your organization can fill that need/want then you have a successful volunteer. Also you will have to dispense with a lot of crap, because nobody is going to put up with crap for free. I did the pink paysheets, because we still got paid at other times and it was a small part of the time I worked and did get paid. We saw it as a bump in the road rather than a full time issue. Forget the volunteer stuff, we will need to pay to generate the numbers and keep people coming back. Another benefit of increasing reservist number is more people with a connection to the forces, which translate into a soft but real support at the political level and people will understand better what is needed when budget issues come up.

I would also like to see an increase in the Naval Reserves. I suspect Prince Rupert will be a good spot in the future, as well as one in the Western and one in the Eastern Arctic. Not sure where a good choice would be for the East coast? Base them around a vessel like the CB90 or a local commercial hull.

Since I am dreaming here, lets throw in 2 Air Reserve units, 1 flying a armed Hawk version and 1 flying Twin Otters as a Transport squadron. Most of these would be recently departed regular force pilots and airframe techs. 

 

[Kirkhill]

Sorry, I still continue to disagree.

I suspect that there are large numbers of "enthusiasts" that spend small fortunes of their own money, and a considerable amount of their own time, developing skills that the community at large, and the CF in particular, could tap into.

Gun clubs
Radio clubs
Computer clubs
Off Road clubs
Snowmobile clubs
Boating clubs

etc.

I don't believe that we couldn't bring numbers of these people into the fold with an offer of free gas, free ammunition, a set of CadPats and an opportunity to get together with like minded individuals.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Now troops will be spreading the unicorn rumour now. 

Morale badge - done.

Since there's still good back & forth on this one, I've split the "Unpaid Militia" discussion from the "Reserve Role" discussion so the pluses/minuses of this volunteer corps idea can be hashed out in more detail.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[chrisf]

SYEP predated me by a good bit, but from what I understand of it, I think it would be an ideal recruiting/retention tool...

Get people in the door for a "summer job", let them see it's a pretty good job, and they'll stick around for the rest of it.

Having taught many basic training courses that were for all intents and purposes "no fail", I also rather like the idea of not being required to retain all the graduates.

 

[Kirkhill]

SYEP also works with Swedish version of the Home Guard.

They are also an unpaid force with a 100 hours or so of service annually but they require some military training in advance.

The minimum is 85 days.  Or roughly SYEP's BMQ.

Ex Regs are accepted off the street.

 

[Kirkhill]

By the way, with respect to the morale badge and the unicorn.....

You already have one.

 

[Blackadder1916]

SYEP predated me by a good bit, but from what I understand of it, I think it would be an ideal recruiting/retention tool...

There is some dated data about the benefit of 1970's SYEP to CF recruiting, however, whether SYEP was a 'cost-effective' recruiting tool is open to question.  The pay and benefits portion of SYEP in the 1970s (like its big brother YTEP in the 1980s) did not come from the defence budget but was a Human Resources (or whatever they were called back then) pot of money.  Both of these programs came into existence because of the (perceived?) high youth unemployment rate, and the governments of the day thought that such measures were appropriate stop-gaps.  Such government programs were not confined solely to military solutions.  I recall some very specious organizations popping up and applying for SYEP funding in the early 1970s.

Considering the current political landscape I think it unlikely that such large scale "make work" projects would be resurrected.

 

[OldSolduer]

I doubt you will ever see masses of untrained, unpaid, clothed in coveralls volunteer 'trainees' in Canada.  Bad publicity and bad politics.

I would have to agree. People volunteer for things like feed the hungry, soup kitchens, finding lost kittens and puppies etc....soft left wing feel good stuff, not learning how to assist with natural disasters and possibly having to assist in the defence of Canada itself - which is not easy.

 

[cryco]

As a potential reservist, i can tell you that money is definitely not a draw to join the reserves. At least for me.
I suspect that for most reservists that are not in school and have full time jobs, the money made from working those few hours at .85 of whatever it is doesn't top the chart. The main draw for me is to do something more to serve Canada.
Others may be to acquire skills, and yet some for the thrill. And then there's ex full timers.
I have an in law in the military and every time i saw him i would bombard him with questions. That's what slowly got me thinking about the army. Oh yes, and Call of Duty, MW2.

 

[a_majoor]

Sorry, I still continue to disagree.

I suspect that there are large numbers of "enthusiasts" that spend small fortunes of their own money, and a considerable amount of their own time, developing skills that the community at large, and the CF in particular, could tap into.

Gun clubs
Radio clubs
Computer clubs
Off Road clubs
Snowmobile clubs
Boating clubs

etc.

I don't believe that we couldn't bring numbers of these people into the fold with an offer of free gas, free ammunition, a set of CadPats and an opportunity to get together with like minded individuals.

Wrong direction there. These people are some of the pools that the Regular Forces and Reserves should be looking into to find people with qualifications that can enhance the force by providing a broader and deeper pool of experiences. Having them enrolled and paid provides the motivation for them to continue to serve in the Comms squadrons, Naval Reserve, as Med Techs, Cyber etc., gives them some bragging rights and (hopefully) the draw of playing with the "really" cool stuff they don't otherwise have access to. We of course need to be able to find a way to recognize their skillsets (and ensure their military training is also recognized back in the Civilian world), which is actually a different topic. Since we probably can't roll out the cool toys due to budget cuts (much less buy new ones for the expanded force to play with), we really have nothing to offer on these grounds.

But most of these people are already willing to do things out of their own pockets and getting together with like minded people, and I suspect that they will not volunteer for military discipline and hierarchy "just because" (those people are War of 1812 reenactors....).

The real solution, if any, is to have them properly trained, properly led, properly equipped, properly renumerated and properly accredited. In other words, a professional military force.

 

[Kirkhill]

Et Tu, Thucydides?  Credentialism and Professionalism?

Cave and mountain rescue teams.  Volunteer firefighters.  Coast Guard Auxiliary.... amongst others, including the Auxiliary police.  There you have five times as many Canadians as you have in the Army Reserve.  All of them undertaking rigorous training at their own expense.  All of them putting their lives at risk on a voluntary, unpaid basis.  All of them working with organizations under discipline.

And a couple of other factors - I would be willing to bet that they are generally gainfully employed and of more mature years than the youngsters that make up the majority of the Reserves.  These are not kids looking for a summer job.  They are adults who are looking for a bit of excitement and an opportunity to serve the community in a meaningful fashion.

Edit to add:

The whole point of the exercise that is being proposed is drawing in those "enthusiasts" with skills that have caught your eye.  Get them inside the tent where you can find out who is dedicated, who has the skills you need, who is just along for the ride.  Once you have them in your care then you can figure out how to use the part timers and also get a chance to pitch the rarified heights to the willing.

 

[GR66]

Some people seem to be taking this concept as some kind of competing organization that will draw away people who would otherwise join the Primary Reserve.  I don't see it this way at all.  I think a much better way to think of it would be adding a new MOSID to the CF..."Militiaman".  These members would be in the same Reserve units as the Class-A Reservists, just with a different MOSID.  The difference is that this MOSID is unpaid and it has no specific trade progression or promotions.  You'd parade with the Regiment and exercise with the Regiment.  You'd receive non-career course type training in all the various areas of instruction that are provided by the Regiment. 

I have a tough time thinking that having more willing bodies active in the Regiments would be a bad thing.  Would training be improved if you could put a Company in the field for an exercise instead of a Platoon?  Wouldn't there be more leadership opportunities for Junior NCMs with a larger body of recruits?  Some of these volunteer members that stick around for a while may also become real assets to their units with their civi skills or even just their accumulated experience from being with the unit for an extended period of time. 

I'm also not suggesting that bringing in hordes of volunteer recruits should be a prime focus of any unit.  Some units might only have a tiny handful of volunteers (or even none at all) while others may have a more significant number parading.  I just think it's a good way to make the CF more inviting to those curious about serving and giving those people an opportunity to serve in whatever way they can.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

 

[Kirkhill]

Sounds painful  :nod:

 

[The Bread Guy]

Sounds painful  :nod:

Only if there's a sudden stop ....

 

[daftandbarmy]

Cadets are technically 'military volunteers'.

They dress up in uniforms, march around, fire rifles, fly planes and sail ships. The cost to the CF is minimal.

Why not just extend the age limit for Army, Navy and Air Cadets?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

While there may be an opportunity, the Feds would never allow it.

The liability issue is enough to shut the whole thing down, before it starts.

This thread is nothing more than speculation and wishful thinking, that will never come to  any kind of fruition.

Let's stop wasting bandwith on useless speculation.

 

[Stoker]

As people have mentioned before, why not expand the Canadian Rangers to other areas of Canada? I would imagine there wouldn't be any problems recruiting people either ex military or civilians. This would bring a presence to areas with no military nearby and would be very useful in an emergency.

 

[daftandbarmy]

As people have mentioned before, why not expand the Canadian Rangers to other areas of Canada? I would imagine there wouldn't be any problems recruiting people either ex military or civilians. This would bring a presence to areas with no military nearby and would be very useful in an emergency.

And based on the numbers, I'd say that places like Vancouver would include those areas where the Rangers could help us increase our profile as a military  :nod: