Wearing Uniforms Post-Release/Retirement (merged)

[PuckChaser]

So who gets to tell this 90+ year old RCN WW2 vet who proudly wears his original uniform on Parade on Canada Day, Warriors Day Parade  and Nov 11th he can't anymore?  :

I think line 11 of the CANNAVYGEN should be the person to do it.... in front of a news camera.

 

[Remius]

I think line 11 of the CANNAVYGEN should be the person to do it.... in front of a news camera.

Does the CF have any authority over who can wear those uniforms?  And would it be a criminal code offence to wear those specific antiquated uniforms?

none of them I am sure are in the dress regs.

 

[Tank Troll]

10. AS COMMANDER RCN, I PRAISE AND THANK ALL WHO HAVE SERVED
PREVIOUSLY: I AM MOST REASSURED BY THE NUMBERS WHO WISH TO
DEMONSTRATE THEIR CONTINUED LOVE FOR AND LOYALTY TO THEIR NAVY.
HOWEVER, AS COMMANDER I MUST ALSO BE MINDFUL OF THE SERVING MEMBERS
OF THE DAY AND THAT THEY, ABOVE ALL OTHERS, REMAIN SWORN TO
UNLIMITED LIABILITY IF ORDERED INTO HARM S WAY, AND THEREFORE MUST
BE CLEARLY RECOGNIZABLE AS SUCH IN THE MANY EVENTS ATTENDED BY BOTH
CURRENT AND FORMER RCN SERVICE MEMBERS

Does he not now that he can't order PRes "INTO HARM S WAY"? Nor do they come under the "UNLIMITED LIABILITY " hence the 85% pay. Or are Navel Reserves Different  in that regard than Army Reserves? Is there a distinct difference in there dress? If not then how can they "BE CLEARLY RECOGNIZABLE AS SUCH"

 

[medicineman]

So who gets to tell this 90+ year old RCN WW2 vet who proudly wears his original uniform on Parade on Canada Day, Warriors Day Parade  and Nov 11th he can't anymore?  :

The Commander of the RCN...through some MP/RCMP flunkie so he doesn't get laid out  :nod:

MM

 

[kratz]

Does he not now that he can't order PRes "INTO HARM S WAY"? Nor do they come under the "UNLIMITED LIABILITY " hence the 85% pay. Or are Navel Reserves Different  in that regard than Army Reserves? Is there a distinct difference in there dress? If not then how can they "BE CLEARLY RECOGNIZABLE AS SUCH"

See para 6 where PRes is no longer part of the "One Navy" concept.

 

[Remius]

10. AS COMMANDER RCN, I PRAISE AND THANK ALL WHO HAVE SERVED
PREVIOUSLY: I AM MOST REASSURED BY THE NUMBERS WHO WISH TO
DEMONSTRATE THEIR CONTINUED LOVE FOR AND LOYALTY TO THEIR NAVY.
HOWEVER, AS COMMANDER I MUST ALSO BE MINDFUL OF THE SERVING MEMBERS
OF THE DAY AND THAT THEY, ABOVE ALL OTHERS, REMAIN SWORN TO
UNLIMITED LIABILITY IF ORDERED INTO HARM S WAY, AND THEREFORE MUST
BE CLEARLY RECOGNIZABLE AS SUCH IN THE MANY EVENTS ATTENDED BY BOTH
CURRENT AND FORMER RCN SERVICE MEMBERS

Does he not now that he can't order PRes "INTO HARM S WAY"? Nor do they come under the "UNLIMITED LIABILITY " hence the 85% pay. Or are Navel Reserves Different  in that regard than Army Reserves? Is there a distinct difference in there dress? If not then how can they "BE CLEARLY RECOGNIZABLE AS SUCH"

That by far is the dumbest part of whole reasoning behind this.  I suppose he can for those on Class C service or if an order in council were declared but essentially you have a good point.  In the army it depends on the units and branches.  Most infantry and armoured units have distinct differences in their orders of dress and certainly in their mess kit with a few noatble exceptions (4 RCR comes to mind) but many have the same uniforms and have no real distinction.

 

[jpjohnsn]

Does the CF have any authority over who can wear those uniforms?  And would it be a criminal code offence to wear those specific antiquated uniforms?

none of them I am sure are in the dress regs.

Don't have the most current dress regs in front of me but IIRC, there is a paragraph about the wearing of obsolete uniforms and that permission is required to wear them.

The RCAF has taken real ownership of the former uniforms and accoutrements since just before the renaming.  There is a living history group near me that does WW2 and "Golden Age" RCAF impressions and they had Winnipeg contact them to check them out about 6 months ahead of the name change.  They must have impressed someone because they got a thumbs-up and members who were also CF members got permission to wear the old uniforms during events providing they wore their equivalent former rank and insignia (i.e. no MCpls playing S/L with a set of pilot wings).

 

[Michael OLeary]

Don't have the most current dress regs in front of me but IIRC, there is a paragraph about the wearing of obsolete uniforms and that permission is required to wear them.

From A-AD-265-000/AG-001, Canadian Forces Dress Instructions:

UNLAWFUL AND LAWFUL USE OF MILITARY UNIFORMS
(Page 2-1-112)

49. Under Section 419 of the Criminal Code of Canada, everyone who, without lawful authority, the proof of which lies upon him:

a.  wears a uniform of the Canadian Forces, or of any other navy, army, or air force, or a uniform that is so similar to the uniform of any of those forces that it is likely to be mistaken therefore;

b.  wears a distinctive mark relating to wounds received, or service performed in war; wears a military medal, ribbon, badge, chevron, or any decoration or order that is awarded for war services, or any imitation thereof; or wears any mark or device or thing that is likely to be mistaken for any such mark, medal, ribbon, badge, chevron, decoration or order;

c.  is guilty of an offence punishable onsummary conviction.

50. Commanders of commands may grant limited, revocable authority for former members and civilians to wear CF uniforms and clothing items in public displays and performances, and special events, if they are satisfied that no harm to the CF reputation will result (see also QR&O 17.06). In particular:

a.  by custom, veterans and other ex-service members may wear undress caps (e.g., berets, wedge caps), with badges, on  remembrance and memorial occasions, subject to agreement of the branch/regiment concerned;

b.  civilian band volunteers may be authorized to wear uniform as noted in Chapter 6, Section 2;

c.  members of sea, army and air cadet organizations may wear CF uniform items and affiliated unit insignia; and

d.  historical re-enactment groups may be authorized to wear obsolete uniforms subject to the agreement and general supervision of the branch/regiment or environment concerned.

 

[jpjohnsn]

From A-AD-265-000/AG-001, Canadian Forces Dress Instructions:

That's the one, thanks.

 

[Infanteer]

Didn't think this would cut so deep.  Having not (1) been a member of the Navy and (2) retired, is there really a big passion with wearing a uniform once retired?

I've always said to myself that once I'm out, I'm out and I'll put my medals on my blazer.  I found it awkward when a civilian attended a mess dinner in his Mess Kit with the rank of LCol (which he retired at).  He wore the trappings of someone who could give a lawful command, but in reality had no such legal authority.

 

[Strike]

Perhaps, wrt mess kit, the answer is to include some type of accoutrement that identifies the wearer as retired?  Maybe a specific colour of stripe on the pant/skirt for example?

 

[Remius]

Thanks Michael O'Leary and jpjohnsn.

Answers my question.

 

[dapaterson]

Didn't think this would cut so deep.  Having not (1) been a member of the Navy and (2) retired, is there really a big passion with wearing a uniform once retired?

I've always said to myself that once I'm out, I'm out and I'll put my medals on my blazer.  I found it awkward when a civilian attended a mess dinner in his Mess Kit with the rank of LCol (which he retired at).  He wore the trappings of someone who could give a lawful command, but in reality had no such legal authority.

If anyone's in a state to give a lawful command after the first 30 minutes, it's not a very successful mess dinner.

 

[kratz]

NavGen 022/13 meets the spirit of Cf 265 WRT RCN dress:

As I posted earlier the NavGen effectively kills public support the the RCN after service.
The intent will be lost in the delivery of this message.

If there was not such a large issue of Maritime Blindness, and
the general public not knowing the RCN was present in most communities,
this would not be an issue.

Reading previous posts on this site show that people who live in Halifax or Victoria did not even recognize
an RCN uniform, let alone asking people in Regina or Charlottetown if Canada has a Navy.

Instead, this order wants to make public awareness worse and alienate previous service.
Hope nobody is bitter when the retire from the RCN.

I lament those past days when an order or law was passed that was well thought out and could stand the test of time.

 

[Remius]

To be honest I'm on teh fence with this. I agree with Infanteer, I think I'd rather get to wear a snazzy tux or dinner jacket with my medals at mess functions.

But I think that message should have given local COs the delegated authority to make the call on an event by event basis.  So if HMCS Narnia has a special annual dinner commemorating the battle of skull pass, then I think he can make the call if tradition, and the Navy reputation won't be put in disrepute is the right call to make. 

Not saying that it should be abused but that he trusts hsi subordinte commanders to make that call as they will have a better feel for sub-unit traditions and dinner etc etc.

I'm looking at this from an army persepective where every unit has different traditions and I would like to think that the army trusts its COs to make those kinds of calls. 

 

[Canadian.Trucker]

So if HMCS Narnia has a special annual dinner commemorating the battle of skull pass, 

That is still covered under OPSEC, no talking about it!
However, if one were to hold a dinner in this most famous of battles I believe the dress is loin cloths with clubs as standard accoutrements.

In all seriousness I do find this to be somewhat disheartening, and I'm not even a member of the RCN.  As stated above how do they deal with the veterans that wish to show pride in the uniform they wore while serving during Rememberance Day and other notable events such as D-Day dinners?  I know they can request special permission on a case by case basis, but I highly doubt retired members that are living out their twilight years read or even care about recent NAVGEN's or even CANFORGEN's for that matter anymore.

 

[Remius]

NavGen 022/13 meets the spirit of Cf 265 WRT RCN dress:

As I posted earlier the NavGen effectively kills public support the the RCN after service.
The intent will be lost in the delivery of this message.

If there was not such a large issue of Maritime Blindness, and
the general public not knowing the RCN was present in most communities,
this would not be an issue.

Reading previous posts on this site show that people who live in Halifax or Victoria did not even recognize
an RCN uniform, let alone asking people in Regina or Charlottetown if Canada has a Navy.

Instead, this order wants to make public awareness worse and alienate previous service.
Hope nobody is bitter when the retire from the RCN.

I lament those past days when an order or law was passed that was well thought out and could stand the test of time.

Kratz, I know thsi is something you have at heart but does allowing former and retired members really increase that public perception and awarness?  I'm willing to bet most or a lot of events are at night and you get out of a cab and go inside.  I think the Navy could do a lot better than that to raise awareness.  I don't think this will raise or lower awareness in the general public. 

But as you have proven, it will indeed tick off serving and retired members.

I'd really like to see what motivated this message.

 

[Jed]

Very interesting reading all the opinions on this NavGen. What really surprises me is not that a not very well thought out NavGen was sent out, but that there seems to be a number of experienced folks that are blind to the folly of it.

Of course this is just my opinion, but this is a dumb NavGen. No good can come of following this order to the letter. It is my hope that someone acknowledges the stupidity and corrects it shortly.

I have no dog in this fight, so other than to see a fault corrected, I personally am not fussed either way.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I attended a dinner at The local Reserve Chiefs' and POs' Mess in Feb. The order was already in force for them even though the NAVGEN just came out.

They were, to say the least, a very pissed off bunch of serving and retired members. There was not one that was in any way, shape, or form, in agreement with this 'order'.

Those in attendance that were civies also thought it was an utter disgrace for retired members to be treated that way.

There was much respect lost that night for those that designed and implemented this ridiculous agenda.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

I really hope this doesn't count if you have tattoos of a naval symbol.  :crybaby: