Wearing Uniforms Post-Release/Retirement (merged)

[dapaterson]

I really hope this doesn't count if you have tattoos of a naval symbol.  :crybaby:

I hear Health Services is investing in some industrial sanders for exit medical examinations...  >

 

[kratz]

Kratz, I know this is something you have at heart but does allowing former and retired members really increase that public perception and awareness?  I'm willing to bet most or a lot of events are at night and you get out of a cab and go inside.  I think the Navy could do a lot better than that to raise awareness.  I don't think this will raise or lower awareness in the general public. 

But as you have proven, it will indeed tick off serving and retired members.

I'd really like to see what motivated this message.

Crantor,

Thank you for being sensitive to this bone I have.

Your scenario is correct for official BOA, Remembrance Day or mess dinners.
In a main city such as Halifax or Victoria, a commander could miss those retired vets.
Oh! Wait!! He gave us SH!T this year and ordered us to attend BOA even if we are on leave,
even attempting to enforce class A to attend.

Yet if you wore the uniform and are retired, nope can't wear it now.

More importantly are the small rural towns Crantor. Someone retires to North Battlford SK,
his RCN uniform might be the only one in the crowd. With this order, he can not normally  wear it.

This message also denies weddings, funerals and other important "life events"
that would celebrate a sailor's life.

Drunknsubmrmr, sumbit a claim to the crown for the laser removal.  >

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

I could submit a claim but I'm pretty sure all I'd get is a Chief with a cheese grater and a bottle of rum.

 

[kratz]

I could submit a claim but I'm pretty sure all I'd get is a Chief with a cheese grater and a bottle of rum.

Free rum? It might be worth.....waaaaiiit a moment. Where in the NavGen did it say that?  ;D

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I could submit a claim but I'm pretty sure all I'd get is a Chief with a cheese grater and a bottle of rum.

You can't have free rum without the other two pillars of navy tradition. Although, prudent application of the lash may alleviate the tattoo problem. Now you just have to submit to that third one

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Ok then...maybe declining the free rum.

Just the Chief and a cheese grater. Owww....

 

[Towards_the_gap]

I NEVER comment on the Navy threads, simply because my experience with the senior service was limited to a couple of Chief Clerks.

However, I've read this thread with great interest, and join the throng in exclaiming that this message is ridiculous in the least.

What operational effect will this serve? What problem was evident in the first place that dictated the need for this order?

But what I would really like to see is if it is actually enforced. I.E. Will Constable Bloggins actually charge LCdr Jones, RCN (Retd) with the offence contrary to whatever criminal code section is it, and see it successfully prosecuted?

It brings to mind that old adage. A good leader does not issue orders he knows won't be followed. Methinks Comd RCN is perhaps a little out of touch.

 

[McG]

But what I would really like to see is if it is actually enforced. I.E. Will Constable Bloggins actually charge LCdr Jones, RCN (Retd) with the offence contrary to whatever criminal code section is it, and see it successfully prosecuted?

Enforcing the criminal code of Canada on civilians is outside the preview of the Comd RCN.  However, his ships captains now have their orders and civilians may find their access refused if they turn out to a CAF event in RCN uniform sans authorization.

Uniforms are usually a sign of on-going service, and military uniforms bear marks of authority in the rank insignia.  The significance of the military uniform even has specific recognition in international law.  It does not seem unreasonable that the RCN may only want currently serving members who are accountable under the NDA to be wearing the uniform.

Do most police forces in this country allow retired members to throw on the uniform and go for a public stroll?  Do the Boy Scouts allow past leaders to just show-up in uniform at the jamboree?  I really don't know the answer to these questions - does this message put the RCN on a different footing than most other uniformed groups responsible for some element of public trust?

 

[Towards_the_gap]

All good points, I guess it just seems petty. And I am curious as to what event or situation brought about the need for this message.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I hesitated to weigh in, but this policy seems, to me, to be part of a revision of "customs of the service" to something akin to those that existed 50 years ago - when ALL the officers giving these orders were still in knee pants.

When I was a young, junior officer, a full half century ago, retired members did not wear uniforms: not to dinner nights, not to ceremonies, not ever. Of course there were exceptions: I recall a whole platoon - maybe just a large section - of vets in 1943 battle dress on a Remembrance Day parade. I have no idea if they were invited by the organizers but no one said or (as far as I could tell) cared anything - it was 11 Nov, after all.

But, formal dinner nights: a) serving officers - mess kit; and b) all others (including just retired members, even those still on terminal leave) - white tie (black tie, later, when someone decreed that it was the equivalent of mess kit).*

But that was fifty years ago ~ many (most of you?) weren't even born! Do we really need to turn all the clocks back?

Personally, I never wore my mess kit after I retired ~ but that's probably an age thing. But it is, also, related to MCG's second point about uniforms being a sign of "on-going service." When I attend a Regimental dinner night I wear black tie with the appropriate, Regimental, shirt studs and my (few and undistinguished) medals to indicate my former service.

_____
* We used to draw a clear distinction between "formal," "semi-formal" and "informal." Formal was mess kit and the civilian/retired equivalent was white tie, semi-formal was patrol dress and the civilian/retired equivalent was black tie, informal was a lounge suit for all.

= civilian equivalent =

Formal wear: mess kit and white tie

= civilian equivalent =

Semi-formal wear: patrol dress and black tie

 

[Ostrozac]

I don't know what the initiating incident was that sparked this order, but it could be titled "3-Star Tries to Reiterate Existing Policy in a Ham-Fisted Confusing Manner That Alienates Veterans and Some Serving Members"

First, Supplementary Reservists are authorized to wear uniforms at appropriate occasions. And they are considered serving members. The four components of the Reserve Force are PRes, Supp Res, COATS and Rangers. That's OPME 101. Everyone should know that Supp Reservists are members of the CF.

Secondly, who is a "former RCN member"? Does this order apply to a retired Land Uniform Supply Tech that was once posted to HMCS Preserver? Because he's a former member of an RCN unit. Does it apply to a Navy Uniform Comm Researcher that joins, gets posted to 21 EW Regiment, then to CFIOG, then releases? He's never served in an RCN unit, or even a unit was on the distribution list of NAVGEN messages.

I  understand what the RCN is trying to do -- reiterate existing policy -- but this message should have been distributed under the CDS's authority as a CANFORGEN, and it could have used some serious editing.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

I don't know what the initiating incident was that sparked this order, but it could be titled "3-Star Tries to Reiterate Existing Policy in a Ham-Fisted Confusing Manner That Alienates Veterans and Some Serving Members"

Milpoints for that.

I only commented on this thread as my late Step-dad, (late RCR), used to wear his mess dress on rare occasions, one of which was my wedding. He certainly didn't write the CDS to ask permission to do so, but neither was he subsequently pictured in a local paper drunk, urinating on a church door, with his buttons undone and shoes unpolished. Therefore there was no damage done to the corporate image of the RCR.

I suppose my point is that those who would still wear RCN mess dress post-retirement are A)of suitable rank to have purchased it, and B)therefore smart enough to know when to wear it in the appropriate circumstance and manner.

But I do get the point of 'official uniforms' as pointed out by MCG. I certainly won't be wearing my DEU's anytime soon, nor would I wear my OFS uniform for social events (outside of those times when authorised to by the Fire Chief).

 

[mariomike]

Do most police forces in this country allow retired members to throw on the uniform and go for a public stroll? 

I do not recall ever seeing retired members of the Emergency Services ( in Toronto, at least ) wearing uniforms. Not to say it never happened, but I never heard of it.

 

[dapaterson]

Milpoints for that.

I only commented on this thread as my late Step-dad, (late RCR), used to wear his mess dress on rare occasions, one of which was my wedding. He certainly didn't write the CDS to ask permission to do so, but neither was he subsequently pictured in a local paper drunk, urinating on a church door, with his buttons undone and shoes unpolished. Therefore there was no damage done to the corporate image of the RCR.

I suppose my point is that those who would still wear RCN mess dress post-retirement are A)of suitable rank to have purchased it, and B)therefore smart enough to know when to wear it in the appropriate circumstance and manner.

But I do get the point of 'official uniforms' as pointed out by MCG. I certainly won't be wearing my DEU's anytime soon, nor would I wear my OFS uniform for social events (outside of those times when authorised to by the Fire Chief).

[Anal Retentive, so wholly appropriate]

The damage only came when you referred to the RCR instead of The RCR.

[/Anal Retentive, so wholly appropriate]

 

[Towards_the_gap]

I went and painted 21 rocks, alternating between black, gold and royal blue, then dressed them off in column of three's, all the while whistling 'St Catherines', in penance.

 

[Monsoon]

Just read a newspaper article about the change of command ceremony at "The" Second Battalion of The Royal Canadian Regiment. You people even have the media over-drilled.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

Total tangent, but am I the only one surprised that Megamind ended up as a Royal Sigs officer?

 

[chrisf]

Of course you all realize none of this carries much legal weight with former members anyway...who are no longer subject to the qr&o's... So aside from attending mess dinners or unit events, if you're one of those folks who feels the need to "impress" people by wearing mess kit post retirement, you can probably go for it without much worry... A lot of money gets spent on those things, might as well get a bit if use out if it.

On the same subject, the old WWII vet wearing his uniform on Remembrance Day, you'd have to convince a civillian judge that the individual had violated section 419 of the criminal code, and that he had criminal intent in doing so... Good luck with that.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Total tangent, but am I the only one surprised that Megamind ended up as a Royal Sigs officer?

Further on the tangent ...

Because I didn't "get" the Megamind reference I Googled it to find:

So I'm guessing that the reference is to the officers's bald head. That prompted me to find out more about him. His name was Mike Parke, he was a RSigs officer who died of cancer in 2011; something about him here.

I should have done that research before using that picture; had I done so I would, probably, have chosen a different one. My point was to remind members of the formal/mess kit/white tie vs. semi-formal/patrol dress/black tie distinction that was the norm and which still exists in some places.

 

[Old Sweat]

I would like to make an observation regarding veterans of the previous single service RCN wearing their old uniform at events such as Remembrance Day and Battle of the Atlantic Sunday. It seems to me that the head sailor prohibited ex-members from wearing current uniforms after retirement and "square rig" et al are no longer authorized items of dress, and hence not covered by the ban.