Western Alienation - Split from General Election 2019

[VinceW]

The suggested serving size is four crayons, not the whole box.

Sounds like you have experience it won’t be the first time the US has recognized separation movements most recently Kosovo.
They’ll help what they consider their strategic reserves to be productive

 

[brihard]

Sounds like you have experience it won’t be the first time the US has recognized separation movements most recently Kosovo.
They’ll help what they consider their strategic reserves to be productive

I was in the infantry. I have considerable experience hearing poorly informed fantasy borne of equal parts boredom and political/legal naïveté. I remember dudes turning their shoulder flags upside down in Kandahar during the 2008 election because of some misguided notions of how screwed Canada was. It was silly then, and the same stuff is silly now. Our country will continue to oscillate in an imperfect political balance. We will continue to me not perfect but still one of the best options. We will endure.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Sounds like you have experience it won’t be the first time the US has recognized separation movements most recently Kosovo.

Maybe, but the Kurds in Iraq & Syria'll have something interesting stories to share about American "support", even under "the right party in power."

 

[VinceW]

I was in the infantry. I have considerable experience hearing poorly informed fantasy borne of equal parts boredom and political/legal naïveté. I remember dudes turning their shoulder flags upside down in Kandahar during the 2008 election because of some misguided notions of how screwed Canada was. It was silly then, and the same stuff is silly now. Our country will continue to oscillate in an imperfect political balance. We will continue to me not perfect but still one of the best options. We will endure.

Everything changed because of the election we’re very persistent to get what we want.

 

[dapaterson]

Alberta has voted 60%+ Conservative federally for 40+years.

Opportunists (on all sides) are exploiting this to their own advantage.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I was in the infantry. I have considerable experience hearing poorly informed fantasy borne of equal parts boredom and political/legal naïveté. I remember dudes turning their shoulder flags upside down in Kandahar during the 2008 election because of some misguided notions of how screwed Canada was. It was silly then, and the same stuff is silly now. Our country will continue to oscillate in an imperfect political balance. We will continue to me not perfect but still one of the best options. We will endure.

Oh the Infantry, the only place in the world where you can listen to someone pontificate over the supposed virtues of Aristotle one minute and then listen to that same individual slam back a box of crayons and talk about their itchy crotch the next  ;D

 

[daftandbarmy]

Oh the Infantry, the only place in the world where you can listen to someone pontificate over the supposed virtues of Aristotle one minute and then listen to that same individual slam back a box of crayons and talk about their itchy crotch the next  ;D

.... followed by a kick in the guts from the Section Commander because ‘you talk at stand to and we all die’ , or something equally melodramatic

 

[OldSolduer]

Oh the Infantry, the only place in the world where you can listen to someone pontificate over the supposed virtues of Aristotle one minute and then listen to that same individual slam back a box of crayons and talk about their itchy crotch the next  ;D

Personally I liked the red and orange crayons 🖍.

I never talked about Aristotle though.

 

[dapaterson]

You're more of a David Hume guy, am I right?

 

[The Bread Guy]

Are you prepared to kill people if the provincial / municipal Govt. say they are independent?

Whoa, whoa -- I think this kind of question is as hypothetical at this point as asking , "Are you prepared to kill RCMP or CF troops if Ottawa says you can't be independent in the way you want?" (given that's the mirror "all in" position).

Everybody needs to take a chill pill ... Everyone: stop listening to politicians and experts who have messages of division ... Speak well of each other across Canada and take the moral high road!

:goodpost:

 

[The Bread Guy]

For any province to secede from Canada it would have to conform to The Clarity Act. And, yes, the Act was originally focused on Quebec, but it would likely be applied to any other province that complemented leaving Canada.

And with a bit more on that ...

... Dwight Newman is a University of Saskatchewan professor who is an expert on constitutional law.

He said the federal government has a piece of legislation in place that provides a mechanism and a set of rules that provides for a province to leave confederation.

“A western province that wants to secede could follow the road map provided by that piece of legislation,” said Newman.

He said there are a lot of constitutional issues that would have to be addressed if a province began the process of separating.

“The Clarity Act says that a lot of considerations would come into play in terms of whether the federal parliament approved aspects of the process,” said Newman. “Amongst those would be constitutionally protected, like Indigenous rights.”

The Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations chief, Bobby Cameron, said inherited treaty rights are not bound by provincial law.

“Do I want better communication on separating from the rest of Canada?” said Cameron. “Anything to advance our position in terms of inherited treaty rights, we’re for.”

Cameron said the discussion of western separation and how it would affect Indigenous people would affect constitutional issues.

“We have thousands and thousands and hundreds of thousands of acres of traditional lands which belong to First Nations people. Many of these landowners live on First Nations land,” Cameron said. “That’s what this opens up.” ...

... and a bit from Alberta's Premier on the issue (screen capture attached).

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Personally I liked the red and orange crayons 🖍.

I never talked about Aristotle though.

I liked the green ones best.  No need for green crayons when the only Mission Task Verb you know is DESTROY and using green/neutral coloured symbols is an automatic DS Fail for any trace order  :arid rifleman: :arid rifleman:

 

[CountDC]

not that I think it will ever happen but if it did who is really going to enforce all these agreements on a separated and perhaps self governing part of the US?  All these language rights, clarity act, native agreements, etc, etc, etc would only apply if someone is willing to enforce them.  The new free Alberta Government could write their own legislation stating they are English only, not associated with Canada in anyway and there are no native rights - you are either an Albertan like everyone else or you can leave.  Would Canada then go to war to enforce their rules against a US backed government?  I doubt that would happen either.  The toothless UN?  I think their biggest issue would be the native rights as they are the only ones that might stand up and actually fight it while the Canadian Government would stomp their feet, pout and cry to the UN that little brother wasn't playing by their rules.

 

[Baz]

Canada wouldn't have anything to do with it. The affected groups would fight it in the Alberta and US court system.  Not a lawyer, but I'd imagine it could end up in the Supreme Court Of The United States.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

not that I think it will ever happen but if it did who is really going to enforce all these agreements on a separated and perhaps self governing part of the US?  All these language rights, clarity act, native agreements, etc, etc, etc would only apply if someone is willing to enforce them.  The new free Alberta Government could write their own legislation stating they are English only, not associated with Canada in anyway and there are no native rights - you are either an Albertan like everyone else or you can leave.  Would Canada then go to war to enforce their rules against a US backed government?  I doubt that would happen either.  The toothless UN?  I think their biggest issue would be the native rights as they are the only ones that might stand up and actually fight it while the Canadian Government would stomp their feet, pout and cry to the UN that little brother wasn't playing by their rules.

And if the First Nations people involved object and decide to start an insurgency- then what?

Invite the US Army in to suppress it? Because that worked out so awesome in Iraq, Afahanistan and Syria?

This is what I mean- it is easy to be a keyboard warrior (not implying, at all, that you are one of those. I have just seen a lot of it the past few days.) and call for "Western Separation". Until you run up against the cold, hard realities of the situation that you are risking a very real civil war where very real people die.

I am not in any way defending the absolutely ham-fisted, incompetent and utterly destructive manner in which the Trudeau Liberals have governed for the last 4 years. However, at least this week they seem somewhat chastened by the whole affair. Perhaps Western political leaders could act like statesmen and work to get a solution. Most people outside of about 4 ridings in BC seem unhappy with how the Liberals have mishandled pipelines, too. I think a deal can be reached and the extremists on both ends of the political specturm can be cut out of the picture.

 

[CountDC]

And if the First Nations people involved object and decide to start an insurgency- then what?

Invite the US Army in to suppress it? Because that worked out so awesome in Iraq, Afahanistan and Syria?

That is why I think this would be their biggest issue.  How they handle it I would have no idea, I hope they would negotiate rather than fighting but wouldn't be surprised either way.  I suspect that it would be a situation resolved with enough money thrown in. 

 

[OldSolduer]

I would guess I'm a bit older than most of you, but the subject of Western separation is not a new phenomenon. During the "Reign" of "Pierre the First" (and we would have hoped the last) Pierre went out of his way to alienate the west.
My grandfather (A WW1 Vet) was a western separatist according to my father.

I'm not, but a better deal has to be sought for.

 

[FSTO]

Manitoba Premier on Wexit.

https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/good-relationships-aren-t-built-on-threats-to-leave-pallister-on-wexit-1.4650937

All this wexit talk is what it is "talk". Let the blow hards blow off steam and if that is the premiers of AB and SK they'll eventually calm down.

But Pallister also has to realize (and I think he'll be getting the message loud and clear from his Westman MLA's) that a large part of his province is also being hurt by the lack of action on pipelines and agriculture exports.

 

[The Bread Guy]

And if the First Nations people involved object and decide to start an insurgency- then what?

More on that from 2013 here (PDF - think tank paper "Canada and the First Nations: Cooperation or Conflict?" by Douglas Bland), and in a novel by the same author here (review of said novel).  All I'll say here is that they both make interesting reads for anyone with any military experience, especially the bits about "what has to be happening that increase the odds of insurgency, and what can be done to deal with/mitigate those factors and reduce the odds?".

... I hope they would negotiate rather than fighting but wouldn't be surprised either way.  I suspect that it would be a situation resolved with enough money thrown in. 

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe, but it only takes a few folks supporting the cause outside the province to make the negotiations and payouts more ... complicated.

... a better deal has to be sought for.

There's a concept I think a LOT of people on both sides could get behind in spite of the louder, further ends of the spectrum @ both ends taking up bandwidth.

 

[The Bread Guy]

And a couple of recent bits to add to the discussion ...

... In recent years, a lot has been made of the distrust between police and the communities they serve in major urban centres. But it’s hard to see a more glaring disconnect than the one that exists between the RCMP and the people of Southern Alberta. It’s an already rocky relationship that has only been exacerbated by the rural crime epidemic that arose out of Alberta’s recession. With many experts expecting another recession on the horizon, and a federal government in place that has no interest in stronger prison sentences for violent or repeat offenders, it’s hard to see how things are going to improve any time soon.

In fact, with the Trudeau Liberals considering vast new gun control measures, it’s very easy to see how overzealous policing in Southern Alberta could escalate tensions further.

If Albertans are serious about proceeding with Firewall options*, perhaps it would be best to start with the creation of an Alberta police force. It might just provide the relationship reset that is critically needed between Southern Albertans and the police who risk so much to serve them.

More on that one here.

... If Premier Jason Kenney wants to stem the tide of Alberta separation, he’s going to have to act quickly. Here are three things he could do right away:

First, Alberta should announce we will hold an immediate referendum on equalization rather than wait until the 2021 municipal elections. If Quebec has no interest in supporting Alberta’s aspirations to grow our economy, they can also do without an equalization program that relies on federal over-taxation of Alberta to fund it.

Second, Alberta must begin pushing our own political agenda. We need to resurrect the “firewall” proposals from a letter authored by academics in 2001*. If we are going to become a nation within a nation, as Quebec effectively has done, we need to collect our own money, pay for our own programs, take charge of our own policing and have our own border control.

That means establishing a tax department so we can collect our own taxes and make it completely transparent how much we collect for our own provincial needs and how much we send to Ottawa.

It means creating our own Alberta Provincial Police that answers to our political authorities, not Ottawa.

It means creating our own immigration protocols so we can better meet the needs of our own employers for qualified labour.

It means serving notice that we are leaving the Canada Pension Plan and developing our own Alberta Pension Plan. We have a young population with a high workforce participation rate and a relatively low number of retirees. By offering our own pension, we can reduce premiums for workers and maintain equivalent (or better) benefits for seniors. Most importantly, we can stop the skimming of other provinces. If they want enriched benefits, they can pay for it themselves.

And it means demanding an end to federal meddling in provincial jurisdiction. We need to reject the Canada Health Transfer and Canada Social Transfer, and tell Ottawa to transfer tax points to us instead, so we can generate our own money to pay for our own social programs and run them our own way.

Finally, Kenney needs to get our industries clear access to tidewater. If we wanted to be really bold, we would ask for a do-over on drawing our provincial boundaries ...

More on that from the former leader of the Wildrose Party here (published before the federal election).

* - This refers to options offered in an open letter to then-Premier Ralph Klein in 2001 (attached).  Note:  the first listed signatory of the letter is Stephen Harper in one of his previous lives as President of the National Citizens' Coalition.