White Summer Jacket - Mess Dress

[catalyst]

Looking for a white summer mess dress jacket - that would fit somebody approx 42 chest (male or female)
OCdt Wilson.

 

[navymich]

Looking for a white summer mess dress jacket - that would fit somebody approx 42 chest (male or female)
OCdt WIlson.

I had only heard of High Collar whites for the Navy and was curious about this for the army and decided to look it up.  I found this:

Ref: Dress Regs Chapter 5, Para 16a

Tropical white undress (jacket
and trousers) is not normally worn in Canada
except as an optional navy summer order
(Chapter 6, Annex A). White undress jackets
may also be worn by army Militia units during
very hot weather; the universal jacket pattern
is the same as that for the navy except for
kilted units.

I'll admit to having blinders on regarding Army uniforms.  Is the white jacket actually worn by Army units?  And what is the definition of "very hot weather"??

 

[armyvern]

I had only heard of High Collar whites for the Navy and was curious about this for the army and decided to look it up.  I found this:

Ref: Dress Regs Chapter 5, Para 16a
I'll admit to having blinders on regarding Army uniforms.  Is the white jacket actually worn by Army units?  And what is the definition of "very hot weather"??

Army "Militia" Units -- "militia" being the operative word.

I think that Al Gore predicts "very hot weather" occuring in Canada  sometime around the next millenium. 

 

[catalyst]

I belive it is no 2A - Mess White worn for Mess Functions. Wait one - I'll find a reference.

Basically its what the two in the white jackets are wearing- http://www.cadets.net/pac/rcis/images%20-%20staff/staff2005.jpg

 

[armyvern]

I belive it is no 2A - Mess White worn for Mess Functions. Wait one - I'll find a reference.

Basically its what the two in the white jackets are wearing- http://www.cadets.net/pac/rcis/images%20-%20staff/staff2005.jpg

Correct.

That's the "undress" white jacket.

I believe that Mich thought that the "High collared" white jacket of the Navy (which is NOT what's pictured in your pic) was what the original poster was looking for.

"Undress whites" and "High-collared (Navy only)" whites are two totally different beasts.

 

[catalyst]

Thanks Now I know.

 

[medaid]

I've seen some naval officers with undress whites as part of their mess dress... are they out of dress?

 

[armyvern]

I've seen some naval officers with undress whites as part of their mess dress... are they out of dress?

No. Undress whites are also authorized Naval Dress. They also have High-collared whites. And, what they wore to a Mess Dinner would be dependant upon the Op Order/Instruction detailing the functions required dress.

Army militia Units are authorized only the pictured "undress white" jacket in very high temps, or the cut-away version of the undress white jacket (if in kilt).

 

[medaid]

No. Undress whites are also authorized Naval Dress. They also have High-collared whites.

Army militia Units are authorized only the pictured "undress white" jacket in very high temps, or the cut-away version of the undress white jacket (if in kilt).

OKie doke. Thanks Vern.

 

[davidk]

Why are only militia units permitted this order of dress?

 

[armyvern]

Why are only militia units permitted this order of dress?

Because the Big Guy says so in his Dress Regs.  ;D

(I have no idea why the deviation for militia Units regarding this manner of dress --- I'd wager though that it has something to do with "maintaining tradition/heritage" and that someone far wiser and with far more experience than I will come along and explain the reasonings behind it shortly).

 

[IntlBr]

I think we're having a bit of a lost in translation moment here...

The undress uniform is the patrol blue uniform, or undress uniform.  This also exists in white, in the form of naval high collared whites, and an identical pattern worn in tropical climes.  This is identical to the Dress Instructions dictating that only the Militia may wear the undress patrols in blue.

The mess uniform in white is something different, as far as I know.

Maybe another history buff can confirm/deny this.

Further, the folks pictured there are not militia, and are CIC.  Militia would be the PRes.

 

[medaid]

Oh my, they are indeed CIC...

 

[catalyst]

and now I'm totally confused (and can't access dress regs because cadetnet is being dumb)

 

[armyvern]

I think we're having a bit of a lost in translation moment here...

The undress uniform is the patrol blue uniform, or undress uniform.  This also exists in white, in the form of naval high collared whites, and an identical pattern worn in tropical climes.  This is identical to the Dress Instructions dictating that only the Militia may wear the undress patrols in blue.

The mess uniform in white is something different, as far as I know.

Maybe another history buff can confirm/deny this.

Further, the folks pictured there are not militia, and are CIC.  Militia would be the PRes.

Yes the pic is from the Cadet site, that does not mean that all pictured in it are CIC however. And, that pic STILL shows the undress white jacket.

So there, you have answered the reasoning as to the deviation of dress authorization regarding "Militia/Reg"with your post noting the patrol blues.

As stated previously by me -- IF he saw this Dress at a Mess Dinner it would be because they were authorized for wear in the "Op Order/Instruction" for that Mess Dinner.

 

[catalyst]

so....its authorized for CIC officers to wear said jacket (as it was during the summer dress period and both 2 and 2a were authorized)?


They are all CIC officers - the Major (OC) is ex-reg force armoured (I believe - awesomest guy ever) and he is wearing the mess dress of his former regiment.

 

[armyvern]

so....its authorized for CIC officers to wear said jacket (as it was during the summer dress period and both 2 and 2a were authorized)?


They are all CIC officers - the Major (OC) is ex-reg force armoured (I believe - awesomest guy ever) and he is wearing the mess dress of his former regiment.

Some of the others may be former members of PRes Units who wore the undress white jacket -- that means that they retain their "authority" to wear their former dress as well and to wear it to Mess Dinners if it is authorized to be worn at that Mess Dinner as explained earlier.

 

[IntlBr]

Vern I'm afraid I have to disagree.  We're confusing two patterns of dress here - mess dress, and the undress uniform.

The CIC types there are wearing mess dress - authorized for the CIC.

They are not wearing an undress/patrol dress uniform.

 

[Michael OLeary]

White mess kit jackets are an acceptable alternative to the red jackets during the summer.  They are worn with cummerbund instead of the waistcoat.  The white mess kit jacket has the same cut as the red except that it is of white material and is unlined.

For example, from the Regimental Standing orders of The RCR:

Red jacket:

PART 2 - JACKET

2.1 Design

Single Breasted
Shawl Lapel
Two vertical in-breast pockets
Two piece set in sleeve
Scarlet body, superfine English doeskin, 650 g/m2
Midnight blue lapel, cuffs, superfine English doeskin, 650 g/m2
Shoulder Strap, midnight blue, superfine doeskin, slightly stiffened, just meeting the collar and secured without button - bullion rank
Fully, lined, quilted body fronts, heavy satin
Surgeon cuffs, pointed, 15.2 cm at point, 7 cm at back, two buttons (mounted) 24 L
Four straight, uncut, buttonholes (gold thread), to be placed on left front
Four Regimental buttons (mounted) 24 L to be sunk in right front

White jacket:

Jacket, White, Summer Identical pattern except of white material neither lined nor padded.  The four straight uncut buttonholes will be of white thread.

 

[IntlBr]

Hence the white mess kit being authorized for RegF/PRes/CIC, and the white patrol dress (undress) being authorized for the militia - just as the blue undress uniform is.