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The Quartermaster's Stores => Equipment - General => Topic started by: OceanBonfire on September 04, 2019, 18:14:53

Title: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: OceanBonfire on September 04, 2019, 18:14:53
Quote
Uniform, camouflage and equipment modernization process marches on

(http://i.imgur.com/9tRaOUg.jpg)
Starting at the end of September 2019, 3rd Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment will begin wearing coats and trousers, shell fragmentation protective body armor, bush caps, helmet covers and rank patches in the “Prototype J” mid-spectrum pattern.

Article / September 4, 2019 / Project number: 19-0220

By Eric De Lafontaine, Manager – Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization, Directorate of Soldier Systems Program Management

(http://i.imgur.com/ma6gtz9.jpg)
Lieutenant-Colonel Raymond Corby speaks to 3rd Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment, about the Soldier Clothing and Equipment Modernization Trial at Garrison Petawawa on September 4, 2019. Photo: Private Robert Kingerski PA01-2019-0286

Ottawa, Ontario — Some 600 soldiers at 4th Canadian Division Support Base (4 CDSB) Petawawa will soon be standing out as they help the Canadian Armed Forces test a new Canadian Disruption Pattern (CADPAT) to help select a replacement camouflage for the current iconic woodland and arid CADPAT patterns.
The original distinctive CADPAT, revolutionary for its time, was initially developed in 1997. It is most closely associated with the Canadian Army but it is also worn by Navy and Air Force personnel when they work within Army lines.

Canadian Special Operations Forces personnel wear another pattern, MultiCam, which is not being replaced.
Since CADPAT was issued, there have been a number of advances made in camouflage research, specifically protection from detection by infra-red and other night vision systems.

Starting at the end of September 2019, 3rd Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment will begin wearing coats and trousers, shell fragmentation protective body armor, bush caps, helmet covers and rank patches in the “Prototype J” mid-spectrum pattern.

This new four-colour pattern falls in the middle of the camouflage spectrum, not overly emphasizing brown or green tones.

(http://i.imgur.com/1fHHv03.jpg)
A member of 3rd Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment, asks a question to Lieutenant-Colonel Raymond Corby about the Soldier Clothing and Equipment Modernization Trial at Garrison Petawawa on September 4, 2019. Photo By: Able Seaman Elizabeth Ross PA02-2019-0286-007

While there have been over a dozen patterns tested, this is the first pattern to be taken out of a lab and tested using real soldiers, who are undergoing rigorous training for overseas operations. There will likely be adjustments made to the pattern resulting from this trial.

The trial will last until July 2020. During this time, the Human Factors Support Cell from the Soldier Systems Directorate within Director General Land Equipment Program Management will seek user feedback about the “Prototype J” pattern by conducting large-scale questionnaires.

The team will also conduct data collection, focus groups, and 3D body scanning to define how the current operational uniform and personal equipment can be improved.

This study will also include seeking out soldiers of smaller stature, including but not exclusively women, to ensure that the next generation of clothing and equipment fit the widest variety of soldiers possible.

(http://i.imgur.com/aPIrsNF.jpg)
A member of 3rd Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment, inspects the prototype uniform from the Soldier Clothing and Equipment Modernization Trial at Garrison Petawawa on September 4, 2019. Photo By: Able Seaman Elizabeth Ross PA02-2019-0286-012

The Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization (SOCEM) project, led by the Canadian Army Director of Land Requirements, in cooperation with Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel) and Defence Research and Development Canada, has been working for over two years on harnessing technological advances to improve the functionality of Canadian Armed Forces operational uniforms and equipment.

The goal is operational clothing and equipment that protect and fit better while lightening the load carried by soldiers.

Transitioning to a single pattern from the current temperate woodland (green), and arid (tan) will also create efficiencies in terms of logistics.

With the final decision expected no later than 2022 and a full roll out 2027, the interim years will see mixed uniforms and equipment as items in the new pattern are gradually acquired and put into service.

http://www.army-armee.forces.gc.ca/en/news-publications/national-news-details-no-menu.page?doc=uniform-camouflage-and-equipment-modernization-process-marches-on/k01wx3ot
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Ditch on September 04, 2019, 18:26:07
Quote
It is most closely associated with the Canadian Army but it is also worn by Navy and Air Force personnel when they work within Army lines.
Apparently the author is blissfully unaware that LWCC is the dress of the day for all RCAF personnel (exception being aircrew).  None of us work within "army lines".
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Hamish Seggie on September 04, 2019, 18:46:27
From the time I joined in 1975 until I retired from the Regular Force in 1999 the only camouflage we received was the garrison jacket.

Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 04, 2019, 19:02:26
So 10 years from the time the project started until the full roll out will begin. The same amount of time it took us to fight and win WW1 and WW2 combined.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Ostrozac on September 04, 2019, 20:31:00
From the time I joined in 1975 until I retired from the Regular Force in 1999 the only camouflage we received was the garrison jacket.

Not quite, there were also helmet covers for the steel pots!
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Hamish Seggie on September 04, 2019, 20:56:11
Not quite, there were also helmet covers for the steel pots!

Oh of course. Please forgive me for my memory  ;)
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on September 04, 2019, 22:20:10
I literally don't have a clue what a f**ck*** Army line is, but, assuming for instance that it includes any base under the direction of the Army (the old "camps"), I seem to recall a CANFORGEN that stated that  Naval personnel will wear the NCD when "combat" is the dress of the day, except when wearing the Cadpat is required for operational reasons.

And Hamish, you forgot also: in winter, we wore "whites" - that's a camouflage.  ;)
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Hamish Seggie on September 04, 2019, 22:26:39
I literally don't have a clue what a f**ck*** Army line is, but, assuming for instance that it includes any base under the direction of the Army (the old "camps"), I seem to recall a CANFORGEN that stated that  Naval personnel will wear the NCD when "combat" is the dress of the day, except when wearing the Cadpat is required for operational reasons.

And Hamish, you forgot also: in winter, we wore "whites" - that's a camouflage.  ;)

Once again you are correct.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 04, 2019, 23:04:51
Apparently the author is blissfully unaware that LWCC is the dress of the day for all RCAF personnel (exception being aircrew).  None of us work within "army lines".

By Eric De Lafontaine, Manager – Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization, Directorate of Soldier Systems Program Management

The only way the article could be worse was if they let the people who manage the CAF social media write-ups do it.  The crap that comes out on the various FB pages is pretty brutal...who is letting these people be the 'face/voice' of the CAF these days?  and why??
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 04, 2019, 23:08:15
So 10 years from the time the project started until the full roll out will begin. The same amount of time it took us to fight and win WW1 and WW2 combined.

With the final decision expected no later than 2022 and a full roll out 2027, the interim years will see mixed uniforms and equipment as items in the new pattern are gradually acquired and put into service.

Jesus...the CAF just seemed to get thru the mix-match of OD combats and CADPAT...might as well start the visual gong-show up again so we can go back to looking like a wild turkey hunting club again. 

It's too bad the CAF has come to accept the underlined part above as 'ops normal'.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: daftandbarmy on September 04, 2019, 23:26:04
Ummmm.... can't we just point at CANSOFCOM and say 'I'll have what they're having, please?'.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: CanadianTire on September 05, 2019, 13:11:20
Ummmm.... can't we just point at CANSOFCOM and say 'I'll have what they're having, please?'.

Too easy and it makes too much sense (and probably costs less). So...no.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: FSTO on September 05, 2019, 14:38:54
By Eric De Lafontaine, Manager – Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization, Directorate of Soldier Systems Program Management

The only way the article could be worse was if they let the people who manage the CAF social media write-ups do it.  The crap that comes out on the various FB pages is pretty brutal...who is letting these people be the 'face/voice' of the CAF these days?  and why??

The worst one I recently saw was of the RCN Twitter page saying that NTOG was the same as US Navy SEALS. They got a severe bollocking over that faux pas!
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: CloudCover on September 05, 2019, 15:09:00
Because the US Navy Seals only wish they were elite NTOG members!
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: FSTO on September 05, 2019, 15:34:36
Because the US Navy Seals only wish they were elite NTOG members!
  :nod::rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: daftandbarmy on September 05, 2019, 17:29:21
Because the US Navy Seals only wish they were elite NTOG members!

... or at least received the same pay and benefits :)
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: ballz on September 05, 2019, 17:47:51
Apparently the author is blissfully unaware that LWCC is the dress of the day for all RCAF personnel (exception being aircrew).  None of us work within "army lines".

I don't know what  LWCC stands for but we definitely have some air force FSAs working in Army units / HQs and they are wearing CADPAT.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: mariomike on September 05, 2019, 17:50:38
I don't know what  LWCC stands for

Light Weight Combat Clothing ( LWCC )
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNTL6i1JoHUNbj23PIzOyUl8MH8BLQ%3A1567716666772&ei=OnVxXcnaLtCq_QaR7b7QDg&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22light+weight+combat+clothing%22+lwcc&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22light+weight+combat+clothing%22+lwcc&gs_l=psy-ab.3...2795.4498..5237...0.0..0.197.741.0j5......0....1..gws-wiz.mv83DFaltnQ&ved=0ahUKEwjJ35_Yx7rkAhVQVd8KHZG2D-oQ4dUDCAs&uact=5#spf=1567716855571
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 05, 2019, 23:46:27
Yup - our Div dress order covers how to wear both LWCC and the ECU. 
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Furniture on September 06, 2019, 09:22:20
The trial pattern looks pretty reasonable to me, as for the roll out timeline I imagine it will be staggered by base much like the CADPAT roll out was.

There is no need for most RCAF/RCN pers to be in a camouflage uniform at all, so using up the less than optimal camouflage uniforms in those environments makes good sense. If RCAF, RCN, and pers basic training stick to the CADPAT TW until stocks are used up, then switch to the new pattern it stands to reason that the rollout of new uniforms could take years to complete. 
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: daftandbarmy on September 06, 2019, 10:20:25
The trial pattern looks pretty reasonable to me, as for the roll out timeline I imagine it will be staggered by base much like the CADPAT roll out was.

There is no need for most RCAF/RCN pers to be in a camouflage uniform at all, so using up the less than optimal camouflage uniforms in those environments makes good sense. If RCAF, RCN, and pers basic training stick to the CADPAT TW until stocks are used up, then switch to the new pattern it stands to reason that the rollout of new uniforms could take years to complete.

Or just give all the stuff that you want to get rid of faster to the training bases and the Combat Arms :)
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: FSTO on September 06, 2019, 10:24:07
The trial pattern looks pretty reasonable to me, as for the roll out timeline I imagine it will be staggered by base much like the CADPAT roll out was.

There is no need for most RCAF/RCN pers to be in a camouflage uniform at all, so using up the less than optimal camouflage uniforms in those environments makes good sense. If RCAF, RCN, and pers basic training stick to the CADPAT TW until stocks are used up, then switch to the new pattern it stands to reason that the rollout of new uniforms could take years to complete.

That's just crazy talk! You must outfit the chairborne warriors at Startop first, then the frontline troopies of Ostfront Carling. Then if anything is left over, maybe send something to the hinterlands of Petawawa.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Furniture on September 06, 2019, 11:41:10
Or just give all the stuff that you want to get rid of faster to the training bases and the Combat Arms :)

If the RCAF went back to a modernized work dress similar to NCDs (current or new pattern) for use on base I'd be all for it. Not much is more ridiculous to me than walking around a weather office in a camouflage uniform. The job of the Jr Met Techs requires a more practical uniform than 3s, but does not require CADPAT with safely boots.

Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Jarnhamar on September 06, 2019, 13:24:00

Burn down our procurement system and put a new one in.

Put everyone in multicam.

Same style/cut CANSOF uses.  Army, Navy, Airforce. Wear it in the field and in the office.
 
DEUs for parades and other functions.

Everyone gets a boot allowance.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Dimsum on September 06, 2019, 14:24:48
If the RCAF went back to a modernized work dress similar to NCDs (current or new pattern) for use on base I'd be all for it. Not much is more ridiculous to me than walking around a weather office in a camouflage uniform. The job of the Jr Met Techs requires a more practical uniform than 3s, but does not require CADPAT with safely boots.

The safety boot thing is another RCAF screwup.  Very few people, and even not all aircrew, need safety boots. 

Also, the new NCD is the same cut (more or less) than the newer CADPAT aside from colours and fire-retardant properties.  I personally think we should have gone in with the Navy and got NCDs (AFCDs?) too.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: my72jeep on September 06, 2019, 18:42:59
Burn down our procurement system and put a new one in.

Put everyone in multicam.

Same style/cut CANSOF uses.  Army, Navy, Airforce. Wear it in the field and in the office.
 
DEUs for parades and other functions.

Everyone gets a boot allowance.
In the new military everyone is special, taking away their cadpat will diminish the ability to tell stories at the leagion. Thus creating a whole new line of PTSD claims.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 06, 2019, 21:45:36
The safety boot thing is another RCAF screwup.  Very few people, and even not all aircrew, need safety boots. 

Also, the new NCD is the same cut (more or less) than the newer CADPAT aside from colours and fire-retardant properties.  I personally think we should have gone in with the Navy and got NCDs (AFCDs?) too.

We had the RCAF CWO at the Sqn last...spring?  He said the boot issue is being looked at and the intent is to go the way the Army did.  Honestly...most, if not a lot, of people (aircrew, at least) seem to be buying their own boots and wearing them.  Who wants to walk around in 5-6 lbs of steel toe boots? 
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: daftandbarmy on September 06, 2019, 22:55:45
We had the RCAF CWO at the Sqn last...spring?  He said the boot issue is being looked at and the intent is to go the way the Army did.  Honestly...most, if not a lot, of people (aircrew, at least) seem to be buying their own boots and wearing them.  Who wants to walk around in 5-6 lbs of steel toe boots?

Navy divers. I am qualified to comment because I've seen 'Men of Honor' (ASNF) :)  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_of_Honor
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 08, 2019, 20:31:13
Navy divers. I am qualified to comment because I've seen 'Men of Honor' (ASNF) :)  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_of_Honor

But...only on the way down to the bottom.... ;D
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: OceanBonfire on November 22, 2019, 16:39:32
Close comparison:

(http://i.imgur.com/pW6kscz.jpg)

https://twitter.com/Army_Comd/status/1197898289741471744

Looks like digitized multicam.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: daftandbarmy on November 22, 2019, 17:20:11
Close comparison:

(http://i.imgur.com/pW6kscz.jpg)

https://twitter.com/Army_Comd/status/1197898289741471744

Looks like digitized multicam.

Looks pretty good!

I just hope it won’t inherent the ‘Cadpat Fade’ effect ...
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: STONEY on November 22, 2019, 19:00:26
A fine selection of different boots sortta  destroys the term uniform.

Cheers
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 22, 2019, 21:45:31
A fine selection of different boots sortta  destroys the term uniform.

Cheers

Everyone wears the same ankle boots or oxfords on the parade square...not really required in operational dress, though, is it?  Maybe the real need is to reconsider what 'uniform' means for op dress.  I don't care if everyone has the 'same make' of fire protective gloves on;  the important thing is that they are fire protective to the required spec.  If some are green, some brown....doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: winds_13 on November 22, 2019, 22:16:43
I agree with daftandbarney and
Jarnhammer, it just seems to make more sense for us to adopt Multicam along with our closest allies (U.S., U.K., Australia). Creating another unique camo pattern is costly and ensures our continued reliance on sole-source procurement.

IMO, the army does have somewhat of a uniformity problem at the moment, with soldiers in some units wearing whatever color/pattern of equipment they see fit. This makes our force look like a militia, not a first world fighting force. If we added Multicam along with everyone else, it would greatly solve the issue of uniformity in most ways as there is ample aftermarket equipment already  available in the pattern. There is very little available currently in CADPAT TW or AR, there will be even less in this new pattern at the start.

Further to this, it would make it easier to consider moving to a more American-style procurement system, where we would provide a clothing allowance and soldiers would be empowered to buy their own boots, gloves, load carriage systems, etc. (within guidelines).
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Navy_Pete on November 22, 2019, 22:48:14
Really makes no sense for Navy to adopt multicam on a ship; all we really need is fire resistance work clothes, our current uniform works fine for that. If you can see the ship, the multicam is redundant. Making a set of multicam with the fire proofing would be a bit dumb when they make all kinds of stuff that would be fit for purpose for the offshore industry.

If you look up the CADPAT, it's about $300+ for a set, compared to whatever pittance they pay for the DEUs. Worth the savings to keep all the office monkeys wearing something other then combats.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: MilEME09 on November 22, 2019, 23:12:00
One thing I have heard from RUMINT is that the move to multicam is actually a potential shift towards a NATO standard camo pattern, to make the supply chain easier for the entire alliance.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: daftandbarmy on November 23, 2019, 00:12:51
One thing I have heard from RUMINT is that the move to multicam is actually a potential shift towards a NATO standard camo pattern, to make the supply chain easier for the entire alliance.

At which point the US will replace 5.56mm with 6.5mm :)
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: FSTO on November 23, 2019, 09:58:15
Really makes no sense for Navy to adopt multicam on a ship; all we really need is fire resistance work clothes, our current uniform works fine for that. If you can see the ship, the multicam is redundant. Making a set of multicam with the fire proofing would be a bit dumb when they make all kinds of stuff that would be fit for purpose for the offshore industry.

If you look up the CADPAT, it's about $300+ for a set, compared to whatever pittance they pay for the DEUs. Worth the savings to keep all the office monkeys wearing something other then combats.

But....how would CJOC maintain its operational focus if they weren't wearing combats?
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: PPCLI Guy on November 23, 2019, 10:54:47
One thing I have heard from RUMINT is that the move to multicam is actually a potential shift towards a NATO standard camo pattern, to make the supply chain easier for the entire alliance.

Where did you hear this?  The NATO water cooler?  The NATO smoking area?  Outside NATO clothing stores?  A dude from the NATO uniform purchasing desk?  Just trying to determine the source and hence value of the rumour.   ;D
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Infanteer on November 23, 2019, 11:44:05
it just seems to make more sense for us to adopt Multicam along with our closest allies (U.S., U.K., Australia). Creating another unique camo pattern is costly and ensures our continued reliance on sole-source procurement.

Except they don't.  The U.S. Army uniform uses Operational Camouflage Pattern, which is derived from Multicam.  The British Armed Forces use Multi-Terrain Pattern, which is derived from Multicam (and which the NZ Army will adopt as well).  The Australians us Australian Multicam Camoflauge Pattern, which is derived from Multicam.

These are all domestic patterns derived from Multicam.  So, it isn't a stretch to see that the CAF would pursue a domestic pattern similar to multicam.

Quote
IMO, the army does have somewhat of a uniformity problem at the moment, with soldiers in some units wearing whatever color/pattern of equipment they see fit. This makes our force look like a militia, not a first world fighting force.

What does "looking like a first world fighting force" mean?  Remember, the original purpose of a uniform in the 1600s was to identify soldiers on a battlefield where fighting was close (within a hundred meters).  Does that requirement for uniformity still exist?  If so, are matching boots part of that requirement?
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Colin P on November 23, 2019, 14:02:19
But....how would CJOC maintain its operational focus if they weren't wearing combats?

I puke a little everytime I see a sailor in blue camo. Can we have sailors actually look like sailors in clothing designed for their environment?
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: daftandbarmy on November 23, 2019, 14:09:09
I puke a little everytime I see a sailor in blue camo. Can we have sailors actually look like sailors in clothing designed for their environment?

Remember though, we're the military that issued camouflage Airborne-style smocks and 'jump boots' so that everyone could feel like they were 'in the fight'.  ::)
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Dimsum on November 23, 2019, 16:31:43
Can we have sailors actually look like sailors in clothing designed for their environment?

I'll put up an unpopular opinion - if it complies with safety requirements (ie. fire/flash safety, etc) then does the "look" of naval operational clothing matter?  Aside from the anchors and the colour scheme of black and blue, our NCDs don't scream "Navy" to anyone and if someone were to be teleported from WWII to now and see them, they wouldn't probably recognize them as sailors right away. 

I can't remember what book it was, but there was a line where in WWII, once they left port and were underway past the public eye, most sailors changed into sweaters, toques...whatever was comfortable.  When they entered port, they wore their "nice clothes" but that wasn't the case at all times.

Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: daftandbarmy on November 23, 2019, 16:52:44
I'll put up an unpopular opinion - if it complies with safety requirements (ie. fire/flash safety, etc) then does the "look" of naval operational clothing matter?  Aside from the anchors and the colour scheme of black and blue, our NCDs don't scream "Navy" to anyone and if someone were to be teleported from WWII to now and see them, they wouldn't probably recognize them as sailors right away. 

I can't remember what book it was, but there was a line where in WWII, once they left port and were underway past the public eye, most sailors changed into sweaters, toques...whatever was comfortable.  When they entered port, they wore their "nice clothes" but that wasn't the case at all times.

... or shave :)
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: winds_13 on November 23, 2019, 18:45:13
Infanteer, I'd argue that "looking like a first world fighting force" means that in our appearance we resemble other first world militaries more than we do a 3rd world army or militia force. This comes down to a certain amount of uniformity and modern equipment. I'm not saying that we have to only wear issued equipment or be 100% the same but our current system seems to be to let soldiers wear anything (gloves, chest rigs, backpacks, toques,  eyewear, etc.) that is brown, tan, green, black, grey, multicam, coyote brown, CADPAT TW, CADPAT AR, etc.. Adopting Multicam, or a very close variant like our allies (they are all near indistinguishable from each other) would mean that aftermarket equipment would still maintain a degree of uniformity.

I don't think we all need identical boots but perhaps they should all be the same colour. The current boot regulations are vague to the point where one could simply wear construction boots, doc martens, or the issued parade boots and fall witin the guidelines.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: PPCLI Guy on November 23, 2019, 19:33:57
Infanteer, I'd argue that "looking like a first world fighting force" means that in our appearance we resemble other first world militaries more than we do a 3rd world army or militia force.

Huh.  Having served in and with other "first world fighting forces" in garrison, the field, and on operations (as has Infanteer), I do not agree with your assertion.  We look an awful lot like our peers, in many ways - from boots to load carriage systems etc.  I will concede that what you may see on the street as ill-disciplined members walk around with a wide variety of backpacks could lead you to assume that we are a "3rd world army or militia force" but the operational reality is completely at odds with that assessment.

My  :2c:
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on November 23, 2019, 19:57:40
Can we have sailors actually look like sailors in clothing designed for their environment?

Well, that is an interesting question, which leads to a second interesting one: How are sailors supposed to dress to look like sailors?

Put another way: What dress would make your average person (I go beyond only Canadians here) who is NOT a sailor look at someone else and exclaim "That's a sailor!"?

First, let me say that the current DEU does a decent job at that: It has the general cut of a uniform people are used to seeing sailors in, with its Navy blue/black colour, white hat, double breasted styling and ranks - at least for the officers - that look sailor like and could be found on most cruise ship seaman officer. And to me, it works for the actual seamen too, with only a square rig being more sailor like for them if you want to go there.

But what about at sea? Well, there, the "It's a sailor!" moment can only come from wearing something civilians would recognize as such. The bluish (US) and Greyish (Australia) cammo patterns or even brownish (Danish navy - see video below) ones are recognizable to civilians as they watch shows like The Last Ship, or NCIS, or Mighty Ships, or Sea Patrol. The uniform Navy blue colour ones that we are in the process of getting in Canada look close to the ones from many other nations, including the R.N., and so become more and more recognizable to people as being "sailors" uniforms.

But to say that, for shipboard dress, there is a dress we could wear that screams "sailor", is just completely unlikely. As many others have put here, the most important thing is that it fulfills the Navy's requirement for protection of its personnel, and if someone decided that its colour would be Canadian Army cammo pattern, it would not bother me in the slightest.

It's only ashore, in public, that the identity really matters and we have our DEU's for that.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DLgqr5HT8GQo&psig=AOvVaw3P2PSsM8mjkjrsfDUh3EpR&ust=1574638490790000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCLDZyeS_geYCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAQ
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Blackadder1916 on November 23, 2019, 21:33:22
I can't remember what book it was, but there was a line where in WWII, once they left port and were underway past the public eye, most sailors changed into sweaters, toques...whatever was comfortable.  When they entered port, they wore their "nice clothes" but that wasn't the case at all times.

RCN operational dress, 1941 variety

Quote
Gerald Moore, a sailor in the Royal Canadian Navy, smokes a cigarette whilst sitting on the deck of HMCS NIAGARA an ex-American Town class destroyer, 1941. He is wearing a peaked-hat with tied up ear covers commonly worn by Canadian servicemen.

(https://media.iwm.org.uk/ciim5/17/751/mid_000000.jpg?action-e&cat=Photographs) (https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205119365) THE ROYAL CANADIAN NAVY DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR. © IWM (A 3273) (https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205119365) IWM Non Commercial License (https://www.iwm.org.uk/corporate/privacy-copyright)
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: CloudCover on November 23, 2019, 21:46:18
... Elmer Fudd hat and hunting sweater!
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: FJAG on November 23, 2019, 22:36:47
Well, that is an interesting question, which leads to a second interesting one: How are sailors supposed to dress to look like sailors?

(https://imgc.allpostersimages.com/img/print/posters/jack-sparrow-2-pirates-of-the-caribbean-5_a-G-14655116-0.jpg?w=551&h=1088)

You asked.

;D
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: FSTO on November 24, 2019, 08:21:14
Well, that is an interesting question, which leads to a second interesting one: How are sailors supposed to dress to look like sailors?

Put another way: What dress would make your average person (I go beyond only Canadians here) who is NOT a sailor look at someone else and exclaim "That's a sailor!"?

First, let me say that the current DEU does a decent job at that: It has the general cut of a uniform people are used to seeing sailors in, with its Navy blue/black colour, white hat, double breasted styling and ranks - at least for the officers - that look sailor like and could be found on most cruise ship seaman officer. And to me, it works for the actual seamen too, with only a square rig being more sailor like for them if you want to go there.

But what about at sea? Well, there, the "It's a sailor!" moment can only come from wearing something civilians would recognize as such. The bluish (US) and Greyish (Australia) cammo patterns or even brownish (Danish navy - see video below) ones are recognizable to civilians as they watch shows like The Last Ship, or NCIS, or Mighty Ships, or Sea Patrol. The uniform Navy blue colour ones that we are in the process of getting in Canada look close to the ones from many other nations, including the R.N., and so become more and more recognizable to people as being "sailors" uniforms.

But to say that, for shipboard dress, there is a dress we could wear that screams "sailor", is just completely unlikely. As many others have put here, the most important thing is that it fulfills the Navy's requirement for protection of its personnel, and if someone decided that its colour would be Canadian Army cammo pattern, it would not bother me in the slightest.

It's only ashore, in public, that the identity really matters and we have our DEU's for that.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DLgqr5HT8GQo&psig=AOvVaw3P2PSsM8mjkjrsfDUh3EpR&ust=1574638490790000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCLDZyeS_geYCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAQ

1st photo Lt John Stubbs shortly after bringing HMCS ASSINIBOINE alongside after its battle with U-210.

2nd photo Vice Admiral Harry DeWolf in the office

Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: SeaKingTacco on November 24, 2019, 11:04:23
I have read the few first person accounts of the RCN in World War 2 seem to exist (Saints, Devils and Ordinary Seamen; 50 North; The Champagne Navy- surely there must be others?).

In all cases, as soon as the ship was off the wall (and sometimes not even that long) uniformity was out the window in favour of whatever clothing would keep them comfortable.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on November 24, 2019, 11:40:06
Just give everyone a set of blue coveralls, job done:

(https://ml-fd.caf-fac.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/exardentdefender18.jpg)

Edit:  But then, submariners, clearance divers, NTOG, boarding party and ships divers would whine because people have somehow correlated wearing a pair of Dickies Coveralls from Marks Work Wearhouse with being special. 
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Not a Sig Op on November 24, 2019, 11:57:29
Just give everyone a set of blue coveralls, job done:

(https://ml-fd.caf-fac.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/exardentdefender18.jpg)

Edit:  But then, submariners, clearance divers, NTOG, boarding party and ships divers would whine because people have somehow correlated wearing a pair of Dickies Coveralls from Marks Work Wearhouse with being special.

It boggles me that the navy won't embrace coveralls, that's what we do in the civilian sailing world and it's definitely the way to go...

Cheap, easy to carry an assortment of spares on board, available in flame retardant (and you get full body coverage for that purpose), and utilitarian.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: SeaKingTacco on November 24, 2019, 12:11:45
Speaking to female sailors that I know, coveralls are not super popular for obvious abolution reasons.

The RCAF has both a two piece and one piece flying suit option that are authorized. Perhaps a solution for the RCN?
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Halifax Tar on November 24, 2019, 12:12:33
I don't understand this either. 

I would take coveralls with a fleece and NCD style jacket any day!

While I do like the look of the new "combat style" NCDs, I think coveralls are still the way to go.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Old EO Tech on November 24, 2019, 12:46:18
Everyone wears the same ankle boots or oxfords on the parade square...not really required in operational dress, though, is it?  Maybe the real need is to reconsider what 'uniform' means for op dress.  I don't care if everyone has the 'same make' of fire protective gloves on;  the important thing is that they are fire protective to the required spec.  If some are green, some brown....doesn't matter.

Well IMHO, the problem here is that we are using operational dress for daily work dress, which is both expensive and creates the "uniformity" problem.  Wearing 3B for us office dwellers works for this issues, but its actually not a very good uniform for anything but looking pretty, pockets are few and things constantly fall out of them, I know several people that have lost keys and had to retrace steps to find them.  There was nothing wrong with the work dress we had in the 90's, it had decent pockets etc, looked sharp and everyone had the same boots :-/  Sure we can improve on it, in fact I'd be ok with a non fire retardant camouflage version of NCD's with black combat boots...  Then we could save our expensive operational dress for operations :-/
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: daftandbarmy on November 24, 2019, 15:08:21
I don't understand this either. 

I would take coveralls with a fleece and NCD style jacket any day!

While I do like the look of the new "combat style" NCDs, I think coveralls are still the way to go.

I know some Armoured Corps folks who would agree with you.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: FJAG on November 24, 2019, 15:33:50
I know some Armoured Corps folks who would agree with you.

My favourite field uniform of all time were the AFV crewsuits-both winter and summer. (I wish I still had the winter jacket.)

(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67292281_2498550180283867_736967176258322432_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ohc=RKD1ulmNtmAAQnR6F_K4lW0oxvoF6lAJiFtfiHcuDANmcHKj9UR-P1gfA&_nc_ht=scontent-yyz1-1.xx&oh=4ff7aad4f370534c0cce0107fe6135e7&oe=5E871A4E)

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Dimsum on November 24, 2019, 16:29:21
Speaking to female sailors that I know, coveralls are not super popular for obvious abolution reasons.

The RCAF has both a two piece and one piece flying suit option that are authorized. Perhaps a solution for the RCN?

Only if they don't have to be tucked in! 

The RAN had gray coveralls for all sailors for a while.  They changed to the current style (not too different than our new style with different colour/pattern) afterwards.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Navy_Pete on November 24, 2019, 17:19:04
Well, that is an interesting question, which leads to a second interesting one: How are sailors supposed to dress to look like sailors?

Put another way: What dress would make your average person (I go beyond only Canadians here) who is NOT a sailor look at someone else and exclaim "That's a sailor!"?


If giant f** off anchors, NAVY in big letters, and ship ballcaps can't do it while someone is working on a ship, I'm not really sure what else you can do.  I still encounter all kinds of people that have no idea we have a Navy, so I think the obsession with public perception for a work uniform is waste of time.

Personally, the last thing I want is a uniform that blends in with the ocean if I fall overboard, which is why I don't understand the blue camo pattern at all. At that point, I want to be as visible as possible, so am a fan of the bright orange survival suit and all the orange/reflective tape on the inflatable harnesses. The current NCDs/new NCDs are pretty functional and look pretty decent, so why not stop messing around with changing them and try having them in stock?
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Dimsum on November 24, 2019, 17:23:12
Personally, the last thing I want is a uniform that blends in with the ocean if I fall overboard, which is why I don't understand the blue camo pattern at all. At that point, I want to be as visible as possible, so am a fan of the bright orange survival suit and all the orange/reflective tape on the inflatable harnesses. The current NCDs/new NCDs are pretty functional and look pretty decent, so why not stop messing around with changing them and try having them in stock?

RAN NCDs have large reflective strips on the upper arms.  I thought that was a great idea for visibility.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on November 24, 2019, 18:09:20
Well, that is an interesting question, which leads to a second interesting one: How are sailors supposed to dress to look like sailors?

Put another way: What dress would make your average person (I go beyond only Canadians here) who is NOT a sailor look at someone else and exclaim "That's a sailor!"?

First, let me say that the current DEU does a decent job at that: It has the general cut of a uniform people are used to seeing sailors in, with its Navy blue/black colour, white hat, double breasted styling and ranks - at least for the officers - that look sailor like and could be found on most cruise ship seaman officer. And to me, it works for the actual seamen too, with only a square rig being more sailor like for them if you want to go there.

But what about at sea? Well, there, the "It's a sailor!" moment can only come from wearing something civilians would recognize as such. The bluish (US) and Greyish (Australia) cammo patterns or even brownish (Danish navy - see video below) ones are recognizable to civilians as they watch shows like The Last Ship, or NCIS, or Mighty Ships, or Sea Patrol. The uniform Navy blue colour ones that we are in the process of getting in Canada look close to the ones from many other nations, including the R.N., and so become more and more recognizable to people as being "sailors" uniforms.

But to say that, for shipboard dress, there is a dress we could wear that screams "sailor", is just completely unlikely. As many others have put here, the most important thing is that it fulfills the Navy's requirement for protection of its personnel, and if someone decided that its colour would be Canadian Army cammo pattern, it would not bother me in the slightest.

It's only ashore, in public, that the identity really matters and we have our DEU's for that.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DLgqr5HT8GQo&psig=AOvVaw3P2PSsM8mjkjrsfDUh3EpR&ust=1574638490790000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCLDZyeS_geYCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAQ

Well since you asked:

(https://www.restorapic.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/popeye-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 24, 2019, 20:25:05
My favourite field uniform of all time were the AFV crewsuits-both winter and summer. (I wish I still had the winter jacket.)

(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67292281_2498550180283867_736967176258322432_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ohc=RKD1ulmNtmAAQnR6F_K4lW0oxvoF6lAJiFtfiHcuDANmcHKj9UR-P1gfA&_nc_ht=scontent-yyz1-1.xx&oh=4ff7aad4f370534c0cce0107fe6135e7&oe=5E871A4E)

 :cheers:

Just had to remember to "up-size" the jacket or it was awful tight.  And...not great in a dismounted OP in real cold!  I also loved the AFV suit/jacket...

My daily dress now...2 piece flight suit.  I prefer the 2 piece for comfort and 'ease'...not just using the facilities, but during missions / Hot Wx ops, I could remove the shirt and not have to walk around with coveralls tight around my waist. 
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 24, 2019, 20:29:20
Only if they don't have to be tucked in! 

Someday...hopefully.  We just need a shirt with a different cut to it so it doesn't look so bad as the current one would.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: FJAG on November 24, 2019, 22:10:19
Just had to remember to "up-size" the jacket or it was awful tight.  And...not great in a dismounted OP in real cold!

For that I opted for the AFV winter coverall trouser (with the handy poop flap), a parka and mukluks. You could sit in a snow covered OP for hours in those.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Furniture on November 25, 2019, 10:54:34
Only if they don't have to be tucked in! 

The RAN had gray coveralls for all sailors for a while.  They changed to the current style (not too different than our new style with different colour/pattern) afterwards.

I imagine the change from coveralls to a two piece system is rooted in one of the key issues with coveralls. They are either too big, or too small.

For people like me who wear 73 length tops, but 70 length bottoms we end up with a permanent wedgie, or looking like we stepped out of a 90s rap video with our crotch seam down at our knees.



Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Not a Sig Op on November 25, 2019, 11:08:04
Personally I like mine baggy in the crotch, gives me more freedom of movement and my pockets are usually filled with tools anyway...

North American coverall sizes are usually pretty good for most North American males, not always so good for North American females.

That's standard sized coveralls in the civilian world though, which come in surprisingly standard sizes even between different manufacturers, can only assume the forces would find a way to mess it up.

European coverall sizes are a whole different mess when worn on North Americans though, far different length to width ratios.

That being said, if your concern is a difference of a couple of inches in size, it brings you back full circle to the root of the problem with military uniforms... the never ending battle between "appearance" and "functionality".
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: quadrapiper on November 28, 2019, 00:00:42
Personally I like mine baggy in the crotch, gives me more freedom of movement and my pockets are usually filled with tools anyway...
Until you tear the crotch out scrambling over something.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: quadrapiper on November 28, 2019, 00:03:21
For that I opted for the AFV winter coverall trouser (with the handy poop flap), a parka and mukluks. You could sit in a snow covered OP for hours in those.

 :cheers:
Were those broadly intended for dry cold, or also good for the damper West Coast snow?
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Dimsum on November 28, 2019, 00:28:54
Someday...hopefully.  We just need a shirt with a different cut to it so it doesn't look so bad as the current one would.

They could have cut the bottoms of the shirts to be straight across instead of being longer in the front and back.  That's pretty much the only difference.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Not a Sig Op on November 28, 2019, 13:48:01
Until you tear the crotch out scrambling over something.

It happens, I work in a industrial environment, on a ship, and realistically, a pair of coveralls lasts me 6-8 weeks.

Sometimes they last me longer but usually for me, the pockets are getting pretty shredded after 8 weeks regardless.

That's flame retardant coveralls, they're usually $120, the nicer ones are $150-200 "off the shelf"

Anyone buying in bulk should be paying less.

Once I rip the crotch out, no big deal, toss them and go to the supply locker to grab another pair.

That's what happens when clothing is reasonably priced and easy to keep in stock.

That's why it boggles me that the navy doesn't embrace them. *shrug*
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 28, 2019, 22:58:08
They could have cut the bottoms of the shirts to be straight across instead of being longer in the front and back.  That's pretty much the only difference.

This solution would require extensive testing over a number of years....you couldn't simply 'modify' an existing item to the specs the actual users say "would work great!"  ;D
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Navy_Pete on November 29, 2019, 14:15:12
Personally I like mine baggy in the crotch, gives me more freedom of movement and my pockets are usually filled with tools anyway...

North American coverall sizes are usually pretty good for most North American males, not always so good for North American females.

That's standard sized coveralls in the civilian world though, which come in surprisingly standard sizes even between different manufacturers, can only assume the forces would find a way to mess it up.

European coverall sizes are a whole different mess when worn on North Americans though, far different length to width ratios.

That being said, if your concern is a difference of a couple of inches in size, it brings you back full circle to the root of the problem with military uniforms... the never ending battle between "appearance" and "functionality".

Big fan of the offshore coveralls. Can't remember if it was something similar to AOPS or the Bonn class, but they had a small change room with a shower in the entrance to the engine room specifically so the techs could get changed in/out of coveralls they wore while doing normal work in the space.  Makes sense to me! Was looking at some recently, and they were about $150-180. Last time I looked, the NCDs were about that for each piece. Maybe not issue them to everyone for normal wear, but would be good for the 20% or so of the crew doing when they are doing some of the greasy maintenance/repairs.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Not a Sig Op on November 29, 2019, 14:21:43
Are NCDs nomex or treated cotton or a treated/cotton synthetic blend?

Very few in the civillian world still wearing straight nomex any more, I've got a few pieces of cold weather gear in nomex, but that's it.

Treated cotton coveralls are the cheapest, but not usually too durable.

There's other synthetics on the market and synthetic/cotton blends, big fan of these, more comfortable are more durable.

No idea what standard NCDs are tested to, but everything I wear has to be tested HRC2, for arc flash, its a bit of a higher standard than just straight "flame retardant".

The polys in an HRC2 are usually about $180 for a pair, but that's the off the shelf price. Those usually last me an extra month over the treated cotton type.

I'd guess you could get it down to $100 in bulk no problem, and no problem to get in whatever colour you want.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Furniture on November 29, 2019, 18:59:06
Are NCDs nomex or treated cotton or a treated/cotton synthetic blend?

Very few in the civillian world still wearing straight nomex any more, I've got a few pieces of cold weather gear in nomex, but that's it.

Treated cotton coveralls are the cheapest, but not usually too durable.

There's other synthetics on the market and synthetic/cotton blends, big fan of these, more comfortable are more durable.

No idea what standard NCDs are tested to, but everything I wear has to be tested HRC2, for arc flash, its a bit of a higher standard than just straight "flame retardant".

The polys in an HRC2 are usually about $180 for a pair, but that's the off the shelf price. Those usually last me an extra month over the treated cotton type.

I'd guess you could get it down to $100 in bulk no problem, and no problem to get in whatever colour you want.

Your $180 coveralls aren't artisanal works from a company with no prior experience making coveralls, located in Quebec or some other important(Minister's) riding.   

They aren't sold by a haberdashery located in Quebec that specializes in not having sizes people wear in sufficient quantities, ergo we will never have them.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Not a Sig Op on November 29, 2019, 21:49:47
Your $180 coveralls aren't artisanal works from a company with no prior experience making coveralls, located in Quebec or some other important(Minister's) riding.   

They aren't sold by a haberdashery located in Quebec that specializes in not having sizes people wear in sufficient quantities, ergo we will never have them.

Sarcasm and pork-barrelling aside, there's several Canadian manufacturers making them and other good quality FR clothing.

Suppliers are only going to bid and supply what the customer specs and buys.

Same problem comes up over and over again in Canadian procurement, reinventing the wheel and going with a custom product when proven off-the-shelf solutions exist.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Halifax Tar on November 30, 2019, 08:57:35
Low stock of clothing is compound issue to deal with and there are multi factors.

1) We didn't set up the contract to have provide the correct amount of clothing available at all times; and

2) We didn't/don't set up a performance based contract whereby the vendor gets incentives to timely deliveries and keeping stock on hand; and

3) We are too quick to scrap clothing and equipment that still has life left in it; Go check out your local Army surplus for validation; and

4) We have bought into the "just on time" logistics/delivery method relying heavily on vendor warehousing and supply/delivery, which in my opinion is counter to what we require in military logistics.  I need mass amounts stores to sit on shelves and wait to be used quickly, rather than empty shelves and hopeful supply by contract after the need arises. 
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Chief Engineer on November 30, 2019, 10:12:03
Coveralls all the way as it makes sense in many ways as mentioned here. Over the my past 30 years coveralls have come up, time and time again on the various dress committees. These committees are staffed by a lot of senior dinosaurs people who see coveralls as somehow lazy and unsanitary when going to the heads. As the final trial is currently going on for the new NCD's, it will never happen.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: PPCLI Guy on November 30, 2019, 11:07:43
3) We are too quick to scrap clothing and equipment that still has life left in it; Go check out your local Army surplus for validation; and

I completely concur.  Sadly, this is our approach now:

Once I rip the crotch out, no big deal, toss them and go to the supply locker to grab another pair.

We used to issue sewing kits - we also issued SNCOs who would jack you up for ill-repaired clothing, and ensure kit was truly worn out / irreparable before it went to clothing stores for exchange.  It should not be lost on anyone that "no big deal, toss them and go to the supply locker" is likely a contributing factor to shortages of kit.

"One man one kit" does not mean that every person always has brand new kit.  It means that every person is responsible for the care, cleaning, and repair of their kit.  That shows true pride.

Old timer rant ends.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Halifax Tar on November 30, 2019, 11:15:17
I completely concur.  Sadly, this is our approach now:

We used to issue sewing kits - we also issued SNCOs who would jack you up for ill-repaired clothing, and ensure kit was truly worn out / irreparable before it went to clothing stores for exchange.  It should not be lost on anyone that "no big deal, toss them and go to the supply locker" is likely a contributing factor to shortages of kit.

"One man one kit" does not mean that every person always has brand new kit.  It means that every person is responsible for the care, cleaning, and repair of their kit.  That shows true pride.

Old timer rant ends.

You arent wrong at all.  Alternately why not exchange and have the torn pair repaired by the base tailor and put back into the system ?  Just another idea.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: daftandbarmy on November 30, 2019, 11:58:47
I completely concur.  Sadly, this is our approach now:

We used to issue sewing kits - we also issued SNCOs who would jack you up for ill-repaired clothing, and ensure kit was truly worn out / irreparable before it went to clothing stores for exchange.  It should not be lost on anyone that "no big deal, toss them and go to the supply locker" is likely a contributing factor to shortages of kit.

"One man one kit" does not mean that every person always has brand new kit.  It means that every person is responsible for the care, cleaning, and repair of their kit.  That shows true pride.

Old timer rant ends.

We also issue huge amounts of kit to people like me that never gets used and is still in pristine condition, who are office bound, that would better be used by a 19 year old door kicker somewhere down range, just because I'm R23A.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Not a Sig Op on November 30, 2019, 12:09:20
It should not be lost on anyone that "no big deal, toss them and go to the supply locker" is likely a contributing factor to shortages of kit.

Maybe, but I work in the private world, no longer a military member...

I promise, if there's a way to save money, they've considered it, so its cheaper and more effective to replace than to repair, and we don't suffer from shortages...

Specifically, that's in reference to fire retardant clothing... which should *not* be repaired by anyone unqualified to do so, and holes/damage rendering it useless as PPE.

NCDs also being flame retardant, an important requirement of any modern naval uniforms...  important lesson learned from  HMS Sheffield sinking

Anyway, just my thoughts on coveralls.

Though speaking of flame retardant and repairs, would be interesting what is/isn't approved for repairs should the army ever get with the modern world and issue flame retardant combats...
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Halifax Tar on November 30, 2019, 12:18:02
We also issue huge amounts of kit to people like me that never gets used and is still in pristine condition, who are office bound, that would better be used by a 19 year old door kicker somewhere down range, just because I'm R23A.

Solid point as well.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: daftandbarmy on November 30, 2019, 12:29:36
Solid point as well.

But, sadly as I can do, dragging this thread off track.

I like the cam pattern so far... we should call it CULTICAM or something like that ;)

Carry on!
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Good2Golf on November 30, 2019, 12:40:24
...Specifically, that's in reference to fire retardant clothing... which should *not* be repaired by anyone unqualified to do so, and holes/damage rendering it useless as PPE.

A very important point, NSO.

I asked a base tailor if they had FR thread to repair a seam on a flying suit. They said they did not, so I exchanged my suit for a replacement item in the short-term and spoke with Svc Bn CO and RQ to suggest that FR thread could allow the CAF to make better use of a rather short-supply item. They conferred with the LCMM and FR thread was procured and distributed to base/wing tailors in need.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: SeaKingTacco on November 30, 2019, 13:23:26
A very important point, NSO.

I asked a base tailor if they had FR thread to repair a seam on a flying suit. They said they did not, so I exchanged my suit for a replacement item in the short-term and spoke with Svc Bn CO and RQ to suggest that FR thread could allow the CAF to make better use of a rather short-supply item. They conferred with the LCMM and FR thread was procured and distributed to base/wing tailors in need.

Thanks for the tip! I have several (otherwise serviceable, except for some dye fading issues) flight suits unravelling at the seams. I have needle and threaded my own minor repairs (thank-you, Recruit Term @ RRMC), but the services of a quailfied seamstress could definitely extend their lives a few more seasons!
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 30, 2019, 13:50:24
We've had a shortage of flying suits for...well, seems like a long time now.  I had a few teeth on the zipper of my shirt go AWOL recently, rendering the zipper U/S.  I went to Supply and said the shirt is perfectly fine, I just need the zipper fixed/replaced.

Nope; it went in the bin and I was issued a new one.   :dunno:
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: FJAG on November 30, 2019, 14:05:33
We've had a shortage of flying suits for...well, seems like a long time now.  I had a few teeth on the zipper of my shirt go AWOL recently, rendering the zipper U/S.  I went to Supply and said the shirt is perfectly fine, I just need the zipper fixed/replaced.

Nope; it went in the bin and I was issued a new one.   :dunno:

I would have said that you could always have taken the flight suit to a tailor to be repaired but that is probably against some regulation because it's a specialty melt resistant zipper unavailable outside of the system.

(As an aside, and no joke, many many years ago I did a board of inquiry on the destruction by a fire of a trailer belonging to our sigs troop. Everything (including a number of PRC 25 and 524 sets) was destroyed to ashes or slag by the intense fire (fueled by several Jerry cans of gas and naphtha in the trailer) except for a bunch of zippers from various items of gear. The zippers survived the fire intact and serviceable.)

Seriously though, like much equipment today, it's much cheaper in the long run to replace many items rather than stocking thousands of repair parts and the personnel and facilities to repair them.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Jarnhamar on November 30, 2019, 17:57:52
As far as I can tell different countries adopted different versions of Multicam, which is owned and trade marked by Crye Precision, in order to avoid paying Crye Precision royalties or whatever. The multicam patterns are just different enough to not violate the trademark.


As for us, the percent of Canadian Forces member who are going to actually benefit from camouflage uniforms is pretty small. Snipers, Recce teams, 100%.  Infantry, especially those operating out of giant green humming LAVs, carrying black rifles and tan backpacks, maybe a bit less. Armor and artty (minus JTAC or FOO/FAC) even less.
Clerks, Supply Techs, Posties etc..   Not at all.

Our uniforms are 99% political.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Spencer100 on December 01, 2019, 12:55:09
I don't get this problem.  Here is fact for the group. And the world has DOUBLED textile production and use since 2001. Clothes are cheaper now than in any time in human history.  I supply clothing to over one thousand employees with no problem.  This whole thing is an administrative issue in the dept that is all.  I would bet uniforms are cheaper now (accounting of inflation) then ever.  Not including special uniforms with IR, fire retardant, etc. 
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Navy_Pete on December 01, 2019, 14:31:15
I don't get this problem.  Here is fact for the group. And the world has DOUBLED textile production and use since 2001. Clothes are cheaper now than in any time in human history.  I supply clothing to over one thousand employees with no problem.  This whole thing is an administrative issue in the dept that is all.  I would bet uniforms are cheaper now (accounting of inflation) then ever.  Not including special uniforms with IR, fire retardant, etc.

Because less expensive means the budget for the same number of units gets smaller, not that they order enough to fit the actual people.  In theory, they have everyone's measurement on file for the DEUs, so someone should be able to poll the system and figure out exactly how many people of any trade (and rank) are in a particular size range, and do something like make sure there are enough of the common sizes.  Or tailor them to the human form; my NCD shirt went from a 48 inch shoulder basically straight down to the same sized waist. Huge pain in the *** to have an extra 14" of fabric along the waist, and the tails on the front and back where like a good winter coat. Inevitably ended up looking like a muffin top with suggestions of a diaper after a bit of walking around. The DEUs aren't much better, but at least I can have them tailored. There is a crazy amount of fabric to remove though, seems like a waste.

And for the DEUs, I recently had to order a new tunic as the one I got in basic no longer fit (at the chest and shoulders, to throw off navy stereotypes), and the new one is noticeably much lower quality in comparison to the 15 year old one.  The threadcount of the cotton dropped quite a bit and a lot more polyester in it, so it just looks cheap.  So while quantity of fabric has doubled, guessing the general quantity has plummeted.

In general there are a huge amount of steps with a lunatic number of fingers in the pie internally, plus all the shenanigans in our overly complex procurement system.  There are all kinds of committees involved in how it looks, plus the various actual standards that are usually there for operational reasons (or at least were when put in place 70 years ago).  I think that some rationalization and prioritization is called for, and they should probably spend more time sorting out critical things like retention then worrying about how many pieces of flair we can fit on new uniform mk 8,210.5. Understand that these are different organizations, but makes we side eye snr leadership pretty hard when they get so excited about some clothes while ignoring that they are driving the fleet into the ground.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on December 01, 2019, 14:45:02
Because less expensive means the budget for the same number of units gets smaller, not that they order enough to fit the actual people.  In theory, they have everyone's measurement on file for the DEUs, so someone should be able to poll the system and figure out exactly how many people of any trade (and rank) are in a particular size range, and do something like make sure there are enough of the common sizes.  Or tailor them to the human form; my NCD shirt went from a 48 inch shoulder basically straight down to the same sized waist. Huge pain in the *** to have an extra 14" of fabric along the waist, and the tails on the front and back where like a good winter coat. Inevitably ended up looking like a muffin top with suggestions of a diaper after a bit of walking around. The DEUs aren't much better, but at least I can have them tailored. There is a crazy amount of fabric to remove though, seems like a waste.

And for the DEUs, I recently had to order a new tunic as the one I got in basic no longer fit (at the chest and shoulders, to throw off navy stereotypes), and the new one is noticeably much lower quality in comparison to the 15 year old one.  The threadcount of the cotton dropped quite a bit and a lot more polyester in it, so it just looks cheap.  So while quantity of fabric has doubled, guessing the general quantity has plummeted.

In general there are a huge amount of steps with a lunatic number of fingers in the pie internally, plus all the shenanigans in our overly complex procurement system.  There are all kinds of committees involved in how it looks, plus the various actual standards that are usually there for operational reasons (or at least were when put in place 70 years ago).  I think that some rationalization and prioritization is called for, and they should probably spend more time sorting out critical things like retention then worrying about how many pieces of flair we can fit on new uniform mk 8,210.5. Understand that these are different organizations, but makes we side eye snr leadership pretty hard when they get so excited about some clothes while ignoring that they are driving the fleet into the ground.

Speaking of thread count, the new NCD T-Shirts are terrible.  They used to be 100% Cotton, now they have this cheap polyester feel and they don't fit well at all.  I ordered a large and it fits like a dress around my mid section.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Dimsum on December 01, 2019, 14:51:31
Speaking of thread count, the new NCD T-Shirts are terrible.  They used to be 100% Cotton, now they have this cheap polyester feel and they don't fit well at all.  I ordered a large and it fits like a dress around my mid section.

Aren't they literally just black t-shirts that you can buy at Walmart or something?  How does one manage to screw that up? 
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on December 01, 2019, 14:58:13
Aren't they literally just black t-shirts that you can buy at Walmart or something?  How does one manage to screw that up?

I have no idea.  You can feel a clear difference between the old and new ones. I 100% guarantee these shirts won't last as long as the old shirts either.  I have sets of green cotton under shirts from 2005 when I first joined that are still in perfectly good condition, meanwhile one of the "new" black ones I own already has a hole in the arm pit.  :rofl:
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: dapaterson on December 01, 2019, 14:58:25
Aren't they literally just black t-shirts that you can buy at Walmart or something?  How does one manage to screw that up?

Practice.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: daftandbarmy on December 01, 2019, 16:29:05
Speaking of thread count, the new NCD T-Shirts are terrible.  They used to be 100% Cotton, now they have this cheap polyester feel and they don't fit well at all.  I ordered a large and it fits like a dress around my mid section.

Isn't that polyester stuff a bad idea on ships where everything turns to flame once you get hit?
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Navy_Pete on December 01, 2019, 20:10:03
Isn't that polyester stuff a bad idea on ships where everything turns to flame once you get hit?

What a little molten t-shirt material searing your skin between friends?

Stuff on the top layer (like badges etc) isn't a great idea, but still has to go through the clothes, but there is a good reason that all your next to skin stuff is supposed to be cotton, wool or some other natural material that won't melt and char. It gets into the burns and is apparently a huge pain to clean out properly so you don't get infections. In the off chance I'm somewhere hot enough for my t shirt to melt, I'd rather have 2nd degree burns then die.

When they test the clothes they dress a mannequin in the middle of four propane flamethrower type things and hit it with something like a burst. The old ***, baggy NCDs performed pretty good (partly because of all the air pockets due to poor fit), and having a tshirt on made an absolutely massive difference in the extent of burns on the entire torso.

Here's a link to the University of Alberta testing, which includes some video. Does a great job of explaining the test protocol and procedures. For the NCDs, they did a variety, with the blue shirts, jacket on/off, and with/without flash gear. They also highlight that just complying with a standard isn't necessarily good, as you can pass with up to 49% burns, where a more heavyweight (and thus more expensive) could be below 10%.

https://www.westex.com/blog/a-first-hand-perspective-of-flash-fire-testing/ (https://www.westex.com/blog/a-first-hand-perspective-of-flash-fire-testing/)
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: daftandbarmy on December 01, 2019, 22:36:06
What a little molten t-shirt material searing your skin between friends?

Stuff on the top layer (like badges etc) isn't a great idea, but still has to go through the clothes, but there is a good reason that all your next to skin stuff is supposed to be cotton, wool or some other natural material that won't melt and char. It gets into the burns and is apparently a huge pain to clean out properly so you don't get infections. In the off chance I'm somewhere hot enough for my t shirt to melt, I'd rather have 2nd degree burns then die.

When they test the clothes they dress a mannequin in the middle of four propane flamethrower type things and hit it with something like a burst. The old ***, baggy NCDs performed pretty good (partly because of all the air pockets due to poor fit), and having a tshirt on made an absolutely massive difference in the extent of burns on the entire torso.

Here's a link to the University of Alberta testing, which includes some video. Does a great job of explaining the test protocol and procedures. For the NCDs, they did a variety, with the blue shirts, jacket on/off, and with/without flash gear. They also highlight that just complying with a standard isn't necessarily good, as you can pass with up to 49% burns, where a more heavyweight (and thus more expensive) could be below 10%.

https://www.westex.com/blog/a-first-hand-perspective-of-flash-fire-testing/ (https://www.westex.com/blog/a-first-hand-perspective-of-flash-fire-testing/)

A friend of mine was torched by a VISA (vehicle incendiary South Armagh). This was well before there was a credit card by that name, of course.

The VISA was about 20 gallons of gas launched from a car trunk, like a flamethrower, with a kicker charge of a couple of pounds of Libyan provided Semtex plastic explosive. He had burns over 70% of his body but lived, because he’s just that tough. His face looks like ‘Ben Grimm’, and his fingers fused together so that they had to be surgically separated.

The wounds were made even worse by the synthetic ‘denim’ trousers he was wearing, including a plastic zipper that melted over the obvious appendage. We usually wore the issued combat trousers, less comfortable but cotton, with a cotton lining, but he chose to wear the denims that day for some reason. We used to wear them in the base but not in patrol.

He lived, but I’m pretty sure he wished he hadn’t. He continued to serve in the Army, and is someone I always think about when the term ‘role model’ is blithely thrown around by others.

The fact that we make our Infantry, and others, wear synthetic clothing into battle, merely for the sake of comfort, strikes me as irresponsible.
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Dimsum on December 01, 2019, 22:42:14
A friend of mine was torched by a VISA (vehicle incendiary South Armagh). This was well before there was a credit card by that name, of course.

The VISA was about 20 gallons of gas launched from a car trunk, like a flamethrower, with a kicker charge of a couple of pounds of Libyan provided Semtex plastic explosive. He had burns over 70% of his body but lived, because he’s just that tough. His face looks like ‘Ben Grimm’, and his fingers fused together so that they had to be surgically separated.

The wounds were made even worse by the synthetic ‘denim’ trousers he was wearing, including a plastic zipper that melted over the obvious appendage. We usually wore the issued combat trousers, less comfortable but cotton, with a cotton lining, but he chose to wear the denims that day for some reason. We used to wear them in the base but not in patrol.

He lived, but I’m pretty sure he wished he hadn’t. He continued to serve in the Army, and is someone I always think about when the term ‘role model’ is blithely thrown around by others.

The fact that we make our Infantry, and others, wear synthetic clothing into battle, merely for the sake of comfort, strikes me as irresponsible.

Hmm...what's CADPAT and the zippers made of?   :whistle:
Title: Re: Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization
Post by: Not a Sig Op on December 02, 2019, 03:18:21
Hmm...what's CADPAT and the zippers made of?   :whistle:

Which item?

The combat uniform itself isn't fire retardant... but its probably less "melty" and flammable than the issued underwear, long johns, fleece, goretex, polyester blend t-shirts and every other item issued...

Not really anything you'd ever want to be exposed to a fire while wearing...

Maybe that's why there was so much upset over wearing fleece toques rather the issued wool?

Side note for anyone who didn't know, "fire retardant" doesn't mean "fire proof" or even "fire resistant", usually it just means the material is self-extinguishing, and it usually means it doesn't melt or drip.