The Newsroom => International Defence and Security => Topic started by: tomahawk6 on February 17, 2006, 11:21:06

Title: India (Superthread)
Post by: tomahawk6 on February 17, 2006, 11:21:06

Three hundred ITPB police are being assigned to southern Afghanistan to guard Indian projects and workers.
Post by: Baden Guy on March 25, 2007, 11:00:46
Good intel from a man who knows

Archives > March 19, 2007


NEW DELHI - This week, India’s feisty press was gleefully speculating that Pakistan’s embattled President Pervez Musharraf, better known here as `Mush,’ was about to be kicked out by his erstwhile patrons in Washington and replaced by another senior general deemed even more responsive to US policy.

There is indeed growing anger at Musharraf in Washington. The Bush Administration, stuck in an aimless war in Afghanistan, blames Musharraf for its problems and for not crushing Pashtun resistance in Pakistan’s tribal belt. But he has already pushed Pakistan close to civil war in an effort to answer US demands. It’s getting hard to tell who is angrier at the beleaguered general, his own people or Washington.

This week, in an amazingly obtuse move, Musharraf sacked his nation’s respected chief justice, Iftikhar Chaudhry, for daring to inquire into the fate of political prisoners. This disgraceful act, and new press restrictions, ended any democratic pretenses by Musharraf’s regime and left Pakistan looking like a banana republic. It also stood in glaring contrast to India’s vibrant democracy, free press and independent judiciary.

High level sources here tell me Indian PM Manmohan Singh’s able government feels there’s little point conducting serious negotiations with Musharraf over divided Kashmir since he is on the defensive and in deep disfavor with the US. In any event, India has no intention whatsoever of acceding to Musharraf’s latest idea for some sort of autonomy in its portion of Kashmir.

India already has what it wants in Kashmir and sees no reason to negotiate it away. With Musharraf and Pakistan now in the US dog house, Delhi is even less inclined to offer meaningful concessions to Pakistan beyond more confidence building measures and making the Line of Control more porous to trade and travel.

Significantly, Delhi has also concluded that the US and NATO war to dominate Afghanistan has failed. The western powers will withdraw their troops, sooner, think Indian strategists, than later.

India should know. It has hundreds of agents from its intelligence agency, RAW, inside Afghanistan and has spent nearly $1 billion there for `reconstruction,’ a euphemism for renting influence with anti-Pakistani Tajiks, Hazara, and Uzbeks.

More at link
Title: India (Superthread)
Post by: Chris Pook on June 24, 2007, 18:49:21
An interesting turn of events.  I wonder how many more troops the Indians might be willing to commit to protect their people assisting Afghanistan.

Commandos being rushed to Afghanistan to protect Indians 
New Delhi, June 24: India is rushing a contingent of para-military commandos to Afghanistan to beef up security of its personnel engaged in reconstruction work there in view of increase in Taliban activity.

At least 134 highly trained ITBP commandos will be despatched in two batches beginning this week for protection of Border Roads Organisation (BRO) personnel constructing a crucial highway in Afghanistan, sources said here.

Seventy five commandos will be sent in the first batch in view of the urgent security requirement cited by BRO, the sources said.

In the next batch, 59 more commandos will be sent early next month, they said, adding they are at present being given training for the specific task.

With the reinforcements, the total number of ITBP commandos in Afghanistan for protection of Indian workers will go up to 388 as 254 are already there for the same.

The decision to send additional commandos was taken in response to a recent SOS from BRO which is engaged in construction of the 218-km Zaranj-Delaram highway, a strategic road that will connect Kandahar to Iran border.

The BRO, whose 300 personnel are constructing the crucial road, sent the request as it feared Taliban could target its workers to prevent them from carrying out their task.

Bureau Report
Title: Re: India deploying commandos to Afghanistan to protect a road building crew.
Post by: Mr.Newf on June 24, 2007, 18:53:40
Interesting. I never knew that India had 'Commandos', nor that they had workers there in Afghanistan that were working on building roads. Good read.
Title: Re: India deploying commandos to Afghanistan to protect a road building crew.
Post by: FifthHorse on June 24, 2007, 18:58:41
Certainly would be a good chance for India to take on an international role more commensurate with its burgeoning power.

Hey Mike, look into the 'Ghukras', some real hard-core dudes.
Title: Re: India deploying commandos to Afghanistan to protect a road building crew.
Post by: Douke on June 24, 2007, 19:06:21
1- It's Ghurkas and not Ghukras

2- As far as I know Ghurkas are from Nepal, not India.

Title: Re: India deploying commandos to Afghanistan to protect a road building crew.
Post by: Mr.Newf on June 24, 2007, 19:07:43
Yeah after some research the Indian commandos are MARCOS.
Title: Re: India deploying commandos to Afghanistan to protect a road building crew.
Post by: FifthHorse on June 24, 2007, 19:11:32
My apologies on the spelling, forgot to give it a look over. Douke, you are largely right that the Ghurkas are from Nepal, though they have traditionally served with the Indian Army, and I believe that a small portion of the Ghurkas are from India. Though, I'm a bit out my lane in that regard.
Title: Re: India deploying commandos to Afghanistan to protect a road building crew.
Post by: Douke on June 24, 2007, 19:17:49
Ahh typos happens! I am not a huge history expert either, but it is possible since India was part of the British empire at that time. But I know for sure that Ghurka is a Nepalese word and that it is the designation for Nepal commandos serving the British crown.
Title: Re: India deploying commandos to Afghanistan to protect a road building crew.
Post by: Dan M on June 24, 2007, 19:22:02

I know that India has a large and effective military which includes paratroops, special forces etc and an equally large national police force with various special operations capabilities.  I have never, until now, heard of the para-military commandos of the ITBP.

Well just a short internet search later and I've found out about the Indo-Tibetan Border Police or ITBP.  They are a sub-service of the Indian Police Service (IPS) which is India's national force.

The ITBP is trained in mountaineering, disaster management, and nuclear, biological and chemical disasters. ITBP personnel have been deployed abroad to UN peacekeeping missions in Bosnia and elsewhere.


ITBP Commando units provice security to the Embassy and consulates of India in Afghanistan. Besides this two Companies of the ITBP are providing security in Afghanistan.

It was the para-military commandos aspect of the news article which piqued my curiosity.  I could not understand why Pakistan would not be raising holy hell with the stationing of Indian troops, albeit in minuscule numbers, on its western border.

Like you said, an interesting summer is coming.

Title: Re: India deploying commandos to Afghanistan to protect a road building crew.
Post by: tomahawk6 on June 24, 2007, 19:23:18
India has 7 Gorkha Regiments. The Indian spelling is Gorkha.
Title: Re: India deploying commandos to Afghanistan to protect a road building crew.
Post by: Retired AF Guy on June 24, 2007, 21:26:38
The official Indian government website has this entry for the ITPB:

Indo-Tibetan Border Police

"The Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) was raised on 21 October 1962 after the Chinese aggression as an integrated intelligence/signal/pioneer/engineering/ medical and guerrilla unit and was initially placed under the Intelligence Bureau for operational control. In 1975 the primary task of the ITBP was redefined as security of northern borders, to check illegal immigration and transborder crimes.

ITBP is given the responsibility of providing security/communication/ medical cover to the pilgrims during Kailash-Mansarover Yatra besides being the Nodal Agency Disaster Management in the Central and Western Himalayan region. The ITBP has 29 battalions including four specialist battalions."

No clarification on what "specialist battalions" are responsible for.

The link is here:
Title: Re: India deploying commandos to Afghanistan to protect a road building crew.
Post by: Chris Pook on June 24, 2007, 21:31:51
Does anybody know which road the Indians are building in Afghanistan?
Title: Re: India deploying commandos to Afghanistan to protect a road building crew.
Post by: Thucydides on June 25, 2007, 15:13:34
Ever since the partition, India has always cultivated friendly relations with Afghanistan. Pakistan's support for the Taliban and radical Mujaheddin forces before them was, in part, to bring Afghanistan into Pakistan's orbit, or at least force them out of India's Sphere of Influence.

Speculation Alert
Having Afghanistan back in the fold may be an important long term goal for India, so I expect to see more aid and trade flowing north, although I suspect any military presence will be very carefully masked. Private security forces (a la the Chinese in the Sudan, or American "security contractors" throughout the third world) may be the preferred MO.
Title: Re: India deploying commandos to Afghanistan to protect a road building crew.
Post by: Mr.Newf on June 25, 2007, 15:46:28
a la the Chinese in the Sudan
I know I'm going off topic here, but can someone give me a link to where this is talked about in much more detail. I have read some stuff on the Chinese involvement with Sudan, but not a whole lot on a Chinese presence there.
Title: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on November 13, 2008, 03:40:41
Yet another reason to continue to peacefully engage with this fellow Commonwealth member nation and emerging superpower.

Indian navy showcases rising might

    * Story Highlights
    * Indian naval ships in rescues 2,900 kilometers (1,800 miles) from home port
    * Country seeks to expand navy from coast guard duties to major military power
    * India buying symbols of naval power: aircraft carriers, nuclear submarines

NEW DELHI, India (AP) -- The helicopter carrying Indian commandos swooped in low over the distressed Saudi Arabian chemical tanker, firing its machine guns and sending three speedboats filled with pirates fleeing for the lawless Somali coast.


Indian Naval Ship INS Nashak, with Missile Launchers, takes part in exercises off Porbandar coast in 2006.

Twenty minutes later they rescued a nearby Indian ship, navy officials said, foiling another hijack attempt by a different band of pirates in east African waters of the Indian Ocean.

Tuesday's rescues, by forces based on an Indian warship patrolling some 2,900 kilometers (1,800 miles) from their home port, mark a significant step for the South Asian giant, which is determined to translate its growing economic strength into global military and political clout.

"India now has the demonstrable capacity to project force beyond its border," said Ashok Mehta, a retired Indian army general and leading strategic analyst, adding that this was the first time commandos had been used so far from Indian shores.

At the heart of this effort -- which has seen the country of 1.1 billion people become a nuclear power and actively campaign for a seat on the United Nations Security Council -- is a program to expand the navy from traditional coast guard duties to one of the world's largest sea forces.

Speaking at a recent conference, Indian naval chief Adm. Sureesh Mehta vowed that the navy would ensure "a secure and peaceful environment in the Indian Ocean region and further India's political, economic, diplomatic and military objectives."

In the process, India is acquiring the biggest visible symbols of naval power -- aircraft carriers -- and nuclear submarines.

India plans to have three aircraft carriers at sea in the next decade -- a refurbished Russian one and two made locally.

India is also leasing an advanced Russian Akula-class submarine and designing a homegrown version, the Advanced Technology Vehicle, which is expected to begin sea trials in the next two years after long delays as Indian engineers struggled to miniaturize their nuclear reactor to fit inside the hull.

India's attempts to secure nuclear submarines surfaced this week after 20 people were killed in an accident on a Russian submarine undergoing sea trials Saturday in the Sea of Japan. Russian and Indian media reports said the craft was destined for India, though the Indian navy refused to comment and Russia insisted the sub would be commissioned in its own navy.

However, India's navy chief said last month that a Russian submarine would be used to train the crews that will, eventually, man Indian nuclear subs.

India currently operates 16 diesel-powered submarines.

Nuclear submarines, which can cruise undetected for long periods undersea, have been nuclear deterrents since the early days of the Cold War -- virtually assuring that a country that possesses them can respond to a nuclear attack.

In part, India's efforts are in response to moves by China. The two countries are increasingly competing for influence over vital Indian Ocean shipping lanes, and India fears China's large and increasingly sophisticated submarine fleet.

The U.S. military says China already has eight nuclear submarines, three of which are believed to be able to launch nuclear weapons.

While Indian and Chinese relations are the closest in decades, the Indian military also harbors a long-standing mistrust of China dating back to a brief 1962 border war in which China routed India's forces.

But even as it waits for its aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines, the Indian navy has been slowly expanding its scope of operations. It played a major role in rescue operations during the 2004 tsunami and sent warships to rescue Indians trapped in Lebanon during the 2006 war between Israel and the Hezbollah guerrilla group.

They have also embarked on a series of joint maneuvers with other navies active in the area, particularly the United States.

But Tuesday's missions against pirates marked the first time the navy had fired shots in anger so far from home to protect India's overseas interests.

The Indian warship, the INS Tabar, was dispatched to the Gulf of Aden in October after a spike in piracy and hijackings off the coast of Somalia, which is caught up in an Islamic insurgency and has had no functioning government since 1991.

As of Monday, there have been 83 attacks this year in Somali waters and 12 vessels, including a Ukrainian freighter loaded with tanks and weapons, remain in the hands of pirates. Many of the ships were Indian or had Indian crews.

While several other countries sent warships to the region, India was particularly worried. Much of India's trade and the energy supplies vital to fueling India's economy flow through those waters.

The patrols "are intended to protect Indian merchant vessels from being attacked by pirates and also to instill confidence in our large seafaring community," the navy said in a statement.

And it seems that Indian ships may become regular sights in faraway ports.

"We operate from the Strait of Malacca to the Gulf of Aden," said navy spokesman Commander Nirad Sinha. "Ours is a growing, developing navy." (
Title: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: ENGINEERS WIFE on November 26, 2008, 16:37:11
Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Updated Wed. Nov. 26 2008 3:34 PM ET News Staff

At least 78 people have been killed and 200 others wounded after heavily armed gunmen attacked several sites in Mumbai, including two five-star hotels, state officials and media reports said Wednesday.

The attacks also took place at the city's crowded train station, at a police station and at a well-known restaurant popular with foreigners.

Two of the city's landmark hotels, the Taj Mahal and the Oberoi, were targeted, officials said.

Shortly after the hotel attacks, police engaged in a firefight with the gunmen, officer A.N. Roy said.

"The terrorists have used automatic weapons and in some places grenades have been lobbed, the encounters are still going on and we are trying to overpower them," Roy told The Associated Press.

Gunmen also opened fire at a police station in the city's south end.

"We are under fire, there is shooting at the gate," Const. A. Shetti told The Associated Press by phone from the police station.

The street battle continued to rage Wednesday afternoon. Johnny Joseph, a government official for the region of Maharashtra, said at least 90 people have been hurt and that the death toll could rise.

No terrorist groups have yet claimed responsibility for the attacks and a motive wasn't clear Wednesday afternoon.

Janice Sequeira, a tourist who was eating at the Taj Mahal Hotel, said the situation was frightening.

"It was like the sound of loud crackers, not one but several, we just ran out of there," she said. The AP reported that several European lawmakers were staying at the hotel.

According to police, officials blocked off the Oberhoi hotel after gunfire erupted inside. Local media said that two gunmen were still inside the hotel, and that a commando operation had been launched.

Meanwhile, armed men with AK-47 rifles and grenades had barricaded themselves inside the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus train station, local media reported. The attacks started around 10:00 p.m. local time.

The Times of India reported that the city's police chief, Hemant Karkare, and another top official were killed during the firefight.

The Press Trust of India, a news agency, reported that gunfire had erupted at Leopold's restaurant, forcing customers to panic and flee. Blood stains and bullet holes could also be seen at the site.

Mumbai has been targeted in several attacks since 1993, when Muslim rebels bombed several sites in the city in retaliation for hundreds of Muslim deaths during earlier religious riots.

In 2007, several massive bomb blasts ripped through commuter trains and stations, killing 187.

Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: Colin P on November 26, 2008, 17:31:40
MUslim extermist attempting to incite India to prevent the Pakistan army from pulling resources off the Eastern front to combat Taliban and insugents in the NWF and FATA?
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: jollyjacktar on November 26, 2008, 19:15:52
MUslim extermist attempting to incite India to prevent the Pakistan army from pulling resources off the Eastern front to combat Taliban and insugents in the NWF and FATA?

An interesting suggestion and perhaps very valid.

But, I honestly do wonder how much real effort is  being expended by the Pakastani government in the NWF and other trouble spots.  Or are they just providing "lip service" for public/allied consumption.  Are they more concerned with not throwing rocks at a hornets nest, than exacting a full measure of effort. This also goes without saying of reports of latent support for insurgent activities from some elements within the government.

To the victims and families affected by events in Mumbai, my deepest sympathies.

To the perps, I hope none  of you survive to face "due process" ...
Title: Deccan Mujahideen claims Mumbai terrorism responsibility
Post by: twistedcables on November 26, 2008, 20:24:42
MUMBAI: A terrorist group by the name Deccan Mujahideen has claimed the responsibility of terrorist strikes in Indian financial capital on late Wednesday that claimed as many as 80 lives and left over 450 injured.

No further information regarding the proofs claiming responsibility was released.

*I have heard the same name in the MSM as well as on blogs.  You know how it goes: once a name is out there - its next to impossible to find out who really did it IF the named one did not.

Whatever the group or motivation - may they burn, baby, burn!

Title: Re: Indian Navy showcases rising might
Post by: daftandbarmy on November 27, 2008, 00:04:04

Navy Sank Wrong 'Pirate' Ship: Official

A supposed Somali pirate vessel fired upon and sunk by an Indian warship last week off the Somali coast was actually a Thai fishing trawler that had been hijacked earlier, a maritime agency said Wednesday.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: tomahawk6 on November 27, 2008, 01:07:08
Over a hundred dead. Several hundred hostages are held at two hotels. The NSG "Black Cats" are preparing to move in. Alot of chaos. The Indian Army is moving into the city as well.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on November 27, 2008, 05:56:22
Australian news sources are saying an 24 yr old Australian woman on the first day of her 11 week holiday has been wounded in the thy while eating at a cafe, and sadly, another Australian has been MURDERED by these cowards.  The name of our citizen killed has not yet been released.

Title: Re: Indian Navy showcases rising might
Post by: DustintheWind on November 27, 2008, 10:30:33

Navy Sank Wrong 'Pirate' Ship: Official

A supposed Somali pirate vessel fired upon and sunk by an Indian warship last week off the Somali coast was actually a Thai fishing trawler that had been hijacked earlier, a maritime agency said Wednesday.

Eh, people make mistakes. Poor Thailand ha.

Eh, People make mistakes. ha

And about the Indian Navy, its to be expected.. I think the next few decades are going to show many shifts in power. Hopefully all for the best..
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: ENGINEERS WIFE on November 27, 2008, 11:23:13
Canadians among Mumbai hostages: Indian officials
Updated Thu. Nov. 27 2008 9:27 AM ET News Staff

Indian officials have confirmed Canadians are among the hostages being held by suspected Islamic militants in Mumbai, India.

Co-ordinated attacks in at least 10 locations across the city left 104 people dead and more than 300 injured Wednesday night.

The Associated Press reported Thursday morning that Deputy Home Secretary Bitan Srimali confirmed Canadians, along with Americans, British, Italian, Swedes, Yemenis, New Zealanders, Spaniards, Turks, Israelis and a Singapore national were among those being held.

Neither Foreign Affairs in Ottawa nor the High Commission in Delhi have confirmed that Canadians were being held, however.

On Wednesday, Foreign Affairs said it believed no Canadians had been injured or killed in the attacks.

However, India's NDTV spoke with a travel agent who claimed that five of his Canadian clients were trapped inside the Oberoi Trident hotel. That report had not been confirmed.

Canadians concerned about relatives in the Mumbai-area can call:

Foreign Affairs hotline - in Canada: 1-613-996-8885
Foreign Affairs hotline - outside Canada: 1-800-387-3124
Meanwhile, tension and fear continued to grip Mumbai on Thursday as hostages, as well as dead bodies, began to emerge from the Oberoi Trident luxury hotel as Indian commandos worked to free captives -- many of them believed to be foreigners -- after a series of attacks on Wednesday.

Militants still appeared to be occupying the Oberai and a number of other locations in the city.

The suspected Islamic militant members of a previously unknown group calling itself the Deccan Mujahideen staged a co-ordinated attack, with groups of armed men invading two five-star hotels, a busy restaurant popular with foreigners, a train station and Jewish centre, along with five other locations.

They appeared to be targeting foreigners, with some reports claiming the militants were seeking British and U.S. citizens.

Phil Smith, a reporter with Reuters, was outside the popular Oberoi Trident Thursday morning.

He told CTV's Canada AM that some hostages had been released and a military siege was underway -- and that there appeared to be a lot of hostages still inside the hotel.

"A group of commandos went into this hotel at about 4:30 p.m. this afternoon and it looked like they were about to start some sort of operation and that looks like it's underway right now," Smith said.

"Basically it's a series of explosions and gunfire...there's definitely something going on."

He said the sun was beginning to set in Mumbai, and it was likely that Indian authorities were attempting to have the hotel cleared before dark.

At the Taj Mahal Palace and Tower hotel, another landmark in Mumbai, explosions and exchanges of gunfire could be heard on Thursday, Smith said.

"It looks like you might have a situation there where the hostages might be out but some of the militants may still be in the hotel and the army is clearing them out. We don't know that for sure, but that's the best guess," he said.

CTV's South Asia Bureau Chief Paul Workman, reporting from Delhi, said Mumbai is used to violence, but not on this scale.

"There have been a lot of attacks in the city ...for many years. I think it will bounce back but I think the country itself is in shock that people using relatively crude weapons -- grenades and handguns -- could essentially take the whole city hostage and cause so much havoc."

He said there appears to have been no warning of the attacks, which most experts believe were carried out by a domestic terror group rather than al Qaeda operatives.

A similar group, the so-called Indian Mujahideen, has carried out its own attacks over the past year, though mostly using bombs rather than armed attackers, and not specifically against tourists, as in Wednesday's attacks, Workman said.

"Nobody seems to know very much about this group, although the feeling is that these are Indian Muslims, part of a largely radicalized section of the community," Workman said.

"Here in India there are a lot of upset and angry Muslims here, it is a minority, it feels discriminated against and that there is great economic disparity."

Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: ENGINEERS WIFE on November 27, 2008, 11:25:14
B.C. family mourns relative's death in Mumbai
Updated Thu. Nov. 27 2008 8:01 AM ET News Staff

A B.C. family is mourning the death of a relative killed in yesterday's terrorist strikes in Mumbai, India.

Jasmine Bhurji, who has relatives in Surrey, B.C., was gunned down at a hotel where she worked as a manager. The news has devastated her family, who learned of the death from her brother in India.

Her aunt, Satinder Bhui, told CTV British Columbia that she can't believe her 21-year-old niece is dead. "We are a very close-knit family," she said.

"She must have been in pain."

Her husband, Nirbhye Bhui, told CTV's Canada AM on Thursday his daughter was extremely close to her cousin.

"They were exchanging emails almost regularly," he said, adding that family gatherings will never be the same without his niece.

"She would enliven the atmosphere wherever she was," he said.

Her family said they've been told she was one of the first ones shot by gunmen who stormed locations throughout India, including luxury hotels and a train station. At least 100 people were killed and more than 300 injured.

The Mumbai attacks have shocked Indo-Canadian communities across the country.

Hundreds of people gathered at a Toronto-area Hindu temple last night to watch for updates about the attacks and pray.

"As a Hindu, it hurts, my heart bleeds," Amar Erry, president of the Vedic Cultural Centre in Markham, Ont., told CTV Toronto.

For some, emotions of pain were mixed with feelings of anger.

"It's really disgusting to know what's going, and it's a really cowardly act on innocent people," he said. (Erry said?

"Everybody is concerned and everyone is quite angry and disgusted about this."

Canada's foreign affairs minister called the attacks "cowardly" and "savage."

"Canada strongly condemns the savage terrorist attacks in Mumbai, which have left hundreds of innocent civilians injured or killed," Lawrence Cannon said in a press release.

"These cowardly attacks are truly appalling."

Anyone concerned about relatives who may be in Mumbai may call the Foreign Affairs hotline at 1-613-996-8885. The hotline number outside Canada is 1-800-387-3124.

Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: NFLD Sapper on November 27, 2008, 11:51:04
Canadians among hostages in Mumbai: report (
Last Updated: Thursday, November 27, 2008 | 8:39 AM ET
CBC News
A police officer stands guard after shootings at a railway station in Mumbai on Wednesday. (Reuters)

Canadians were reportedly among the hostages being held in Mumbai following the series of attacks at a number of targets across India's financial capital that have left more than 100 people dead.

Deputy Home Secretary Bitin Srimali told the Associated Press Thursday that among the foreigners held captive were Americans, Britons, Italians, Swedes, Canadians, Yemenis, New Zealanders, Spaniards, Turks, a Singaporean and Israelis.

So far, Canada's Foreign Affairs Department and the High Commission in New Delhi have not confirmed that Canadians were among the hostages.

If Canadians are looking for information on relatives in Mumbai, they can contact the Department of Foreign Affairs at 1-613-996-8885 from inside Canada or 1-800-387-3124 from other countries.

Meanwhile, some hostages have been rescued from Mumbai's Taj Mahal Palace & Tower, one of two luxury hotels stormed by gunmen in the attacks.

"People who were held up there, they have all been rescued," Maharashtra state police Chief A.N. Roy told the NDTV news channel. "But there are guests in the rooms, we don't know how many."

Commandos garbed in black rushed the Taj Mahal early Thursday as the sound of gunshots reverberated through the area.

It was unclear if all hostages had been freed from the hotel. Gunfire and explosions could be heard from inside the building. Flames were also spotted billowing outside a window.

A gunman is seen with a rifle outside the Chatrapati Shivaj Terminal railway station in Mumbai. (Maharahstra Times/Associated Press)

More than 100 people were reportedly still trapped inside their rooms. Ambulances were seen driving up to the entrance of the hotel, and journalists were made to move even farther back from the area.

Soldiers outside the hotel said Indian security forces have been moving slowly, from room to room, looking for gunmen and booby traps. In the afternoon, bodies and hostages were taken out of the building.

At the nearby Trident/Oberoi Hotel, at least 20 to 30 people were still apparently being held hostage, according to a senior India Home Ministry official.

M.L. Kumawat, special secretary for internal security at the Home Ministry, said that the 21st to the eighth floors in the Oberoi had been cleared by security agencies.

Police were later seen escorting several hostages out of the hotel.

One of the self-proclaimed gunmen earlier told India TV that seven attackers were holding hostages inside the Oberoi.

"We want all Mujahedeens held in India released, and only after that, we will release the people," a man identified as Sahadullah told India TV.

"Release all the Mujahedeens, and Muslims living in India should not be troubled."

4 militants killed, up to 9 arrested

At least 104 people were killed and 314 injured in the attacks, a senior official at the Maharashtra state Home Ministry, Pradeep Indulkar, said Thursday morning. An organization calling itself Deccan Mujahedeen claimed responsibility for the attacks.

Most of the dead were Indian nationals. Fourteen police officers, including the chief of the anti-terror squad, along with six foreigners, were also killed.

Police said they had shot dead four gunmen and arrested nine suspects.

Multiple locations across the city, including a packed train station, a popular tourist restaurant and a hospital, were targeted in a series of bloody rifle and grenade attacks.

Gunmen also laid siege to the headquarters of the ultra-orthodox Jewish outreach group Chabad Lubavitch. Around 10:30 a.m., a woman, a child and an Indian cook were seen being led out of the building by police, said one witness

"The well-planned and well-orchestrated attacks, probably with external linkages, were intended to create a sense of panic, by choosing high profile targets and indiscriminately killing foreigners," Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said in a television address.

Sharda Janardhan Chitikar, left, is consoled by a relative as she grieves the death of her two children as she waits for their bodies outside St. Georges Hospital in Mumbai on Thursday. (Gurinder Osan/Associated Press)

'They just fired randomly'
Americans and Britons appeared to be the target of the hotel attacks, witnesses have said. Most of the people killed, however, died in the attack on Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus train station as gunmen fired indiscriminately on waiting passengers.

One witness who watched as four young men dressed in black T-shirts and jeans and carrying rifles began shooting indiscriminately into the station's crowd trembled as he recounted the scene Thursday morning.

"They just fired randomly at people and then ran away. In seconds, people fell to the ground," Nasim Inam said between sobs, noting the attackers looked no older than 25.

"They were so young. They were young boys," said Inam. "I was standing behind. I was just behind. If they had turned around, it would have been me."

In similar attacks several kilometres away, gunmen disguised in police uniforms and driving a hijacked police van opened fire on crowds gathered around two hospitals.

"We felt the ground shake and heard the explosions," said Manish Tripathi, who escaped that attack unhurt.

"We heard a car speed up behind us. It was a police van, but the men inside were firing at us."

As the gunmen unleashed a hail of bullets into the crowd, "men were screaming that they had lost their fingers. There was blood all over," he said.

"Some were shot in the leg, some on the shoulder or hand. I feel they are still screaming."

Pakistan condemns attacks
Officials in neighbouring Pakistan also condemned the attacks and reaffirmed their disdain for the work of terrorists.

Police officers inspect a car after they shot dead two suspected gunmen in Mumbai late Wednesday night. (Associated Press)

"Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani, while strongly condemning the incidents of violence in Mumbai, has expressed deep sorrow over the loss of precious lives," the Pakistani government said in a statement.

India has previously accused elements in Pakistan of supporting Islamist militants battling Indian forces in the disputed Kashmir region and of complicity in bomb attacks elsewhere in India.

Mumbai, a sprawling city of 18 million inhabitants, has been repeatedly targeted by attacks blamed on Muslim militants and underworld figures since 1993.

The most recent attacks prior to Wednesday occurred in July 2006, when a series of co-ordinated bomb blasts on commuter trains during the city's morning rush hour killed nearly 190 people and injured more than 700.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: NFLD Sapper on November 27, 2008, 12:11:21
27 November 2008
Ottawa, Ontario

Prime Minister Stephen Harper issued the following statement today:

"Canada condemns in the strongest terms the despicable and cowardly attacks in Mumbai, India. On behalf of all Canadians, I wish to express our deep and profound sympathy and condolences to the families and loved ones of those killed and injured by these heinous acts of violence, including many in Canada. These attacks targeted people from India and around the world. They were attacks on values we hold dear, and we share your loss.

As a fellow democracy, Canada stands firmly with the Government and people of India in your fight against terror and as you face with resolve one of the darkest times a country can ever experience. We offer our support as you work to restore order and bring to justice those responsible for these cowardly attacks against innocent people.

The Government of Canada is working closely with Indian authorities to find and assist any Canadians and their families who might be affected by these attacks. Our consular staff in Ottawa and on the ground in Mumbai are working tirelessly to this end."

Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: helpup on November 27, 2008, 12:53:43
My condolences for the families of those involved and my best wishes for a safe return of those being held.

May this attack put more resolve into our efforts against those who use Terror as a Wpn. (as I wrote this, asked myself how else can you use terror, feeling it is part of our emotions, using it against others though............)
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: tomahawk6 on November 27, 2008, 13:30:17
The response by the Mumbai city government,state and national governments has been Katrina like. Their crisis management was non existant. Lots of lessons learned here.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: helpup on November 27, 2008, 13:38:12
The response by the Mumbai city government,state and national governments has been Katrina like. Their crisis management was non existant. Lots of lessons learned here.

Though it is still early in the analysis. There is allot to be said for " those who fail to plan, plan to fail"
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: Shec on November 27, 2008, 13:43:18
Yeah, I heard a pundit this morning say that each level of government has its own security/intelligence body with no central coordination.  If so, I imagine that will soon change.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: NinerSix on November 27, 2008, 13:50:25
Yeah, I heard a pundit this morning say that each level of government has its own security/intelligence body with no central coordination.  If so, I imagine that will soon change.

Someone refresh my memory here, wasn't this one of the same problems identified in the USA after 9/11?

Condolences to all families that have lost a member and I hope for the best for the remaining hostages.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: Teeps74 on November 27, 2008, 13:52:27
Find those responsible, then bill them and their families for absolutely EVERYTHING. The clean up, the repairs, the funerals, compensation for families, medical bills, court expenses, prison expenses. EVERYTHING. When they have been financially ruined forever, they should spend the rest of their lives in jail. Strip their family names from history. They no longer exist.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: S.M.A. on November 27, 2008, 15:02:51
And the Indians suddenly respond HARD by sending troops to raid the hotels to rescue the hostages.

MUMBAI, India – A state official says the siege has ended Mumbai's Taj Mahal hotel and the last three gunmen there have been killed.

An official with the Maharashtra state home department, speaking on customary condition of anonymity, said there were no further details.

A state official also said eight hostages have been freed from the Mumbai headquarters of Jewish outreach group.
At least 119 people were killed and 288 injured when suspected Islamic militants attacked 10 sites in Mumbai.

Black-clad Indian commandoes raided two luxury hotels to try to free hostages Thursday, and explosions and gunshots shook India's financial capital a day after the attacks.

About 10 to 12 gunmen remained holed up inside the hotels and a Jewish center, a top Indian general said. The remaining gunmen appeared to have been killed or captured, Maj. Gen. R.K. Hooda told New Delhi Television.

Authorities said 119 people died and 288 were injured when suspected Islamic militants — armed with assault rifles, hand grenades and explosives — launched a highly coordinated attack against 10 sites in the city Wednesday night.

Officials said eight militants were also killed.

Dozens of people were being held hostage at the hotels, as well as a nearby Jewish center, by the well-trained and heavily armed gunmen, authorities said.

While hostages trickled out of the hotels throughout the day, witnesses said many bodies remained inside and the two-day siege showed few signs of ending quickly. Several bodies were carried out of the five-star Taj Mahal Palace and Tower hotel.

The attackers had specifically targeted Britons and Americans inside the hotels, witnesses said.

Dozens of people were also apparently still hiding in their hotel rooms, terrified by occasional bursts of gunfire and explosions, as well as fires burning in parts of both hotels, and waiting for authorities to get them to safety.

After dusk Thursday, police brought hostages out of the Oberoi, one of the city's best-known five-star hotels.

One man, a who identified himself as a Pole but did not give his name, told reporters he had seen many bodies inside, but refused to give more details, saying he had promised police not to discuss details of the rescue operation.

The Maharashtra state home ministry said 84 people had been freed from the Oberoi — 60 of them hostages — and dozens more were still trapped inside.

Police said they were going slowly to protect the captives.

A previously unknown Islamic militant group claimed responsibility for the carnage, the latest in a series of terror attacks over the past three years that have dented India's image as an industrious nation galloping toward prosperity.

Among the dead were at least four Australian and a Japanese national, according to the state home ministry. An Italian, a Briton and a German were also killed, according to their foreign ministries.

The most high-profile target was the Taj Mahal hotel, a landmark of Mumbai luxury since 1903, and a favorite watering hole of the city's elite.

Police loudspeakers declared a curfew around the hotel Thursday afternoon, and commandos ran into the building as fresh gunshots rang out from the area. Into the night, brief exchanges of gunfire and explosions could be heard coming from the building.

The attackers, dressed in black shirts and jeans, stormed into the hotel about 9:45 p.m. Wednesday and opened fire indiscriminately.

Dalbir Bains, who runs a lingerie shop in Mumbai, was about to eat a steak by the hotel pool when she heard gunfire. She ran upstairs, taking refuge in the Sea Lounge restaurant with about 50 other people.

They huddled beneath tables in the dark, trying to remain silent as explosions went off.

"We were trying not to draw attention to ourselves," she said. The group managed to escape before dawn.

The gunmen also seized the Mumbai headquarters of the ultra-orthodox Jewish outreach group Chabad Lubavitch. Around 10:30 a.m., a woman, a child and an Indian cook were seen being led out of the building by police, said one witness.

Chabad spokesman Moni Ender in Israel said there were eight Israelis inside the house, including Rabbi Gavriel Noach Holtzberg and his wife.

Among those foreigners still held captive in all three buildings were Americans, British, Italians, Swedes, Canadians, Yemenis, New Zealanders, Spaniards, Turks, French, Israelis and a Singaporean.

At least three top Indian police officers — including the chief of the anti-terror squad — were among those killed, said Roy.

The United States and Pakistan were among the countries that condemned the attacks.

In Washington, President George W. Bush offered Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh "support and assistance" as he works to restore order in the populous and growing Southwest Asian nation, according to White House press secretary Dana Perino.

The motive for the onslaught was not immediately clear, but Mumbai has frequently been targeted in terrorist attacks blamed on Islamic extremists, including a series of bombings in July 2006 that killed 187 people.

An Indian media report said a previously unknown group calling itself the Deccan Mujahideen claimed responsibility for the attacks in e-mails to several media outlets. There was no way to verify that claim.

Magnus Ranstorp, a terrorism specialist with the Swedish National Defense College, said there are "very strong suspicions" that the coordinated Mumbai attacks have a link to al-Qaida.

He said the fact that Britons and Americans were singled out is one indicator, along with the coordinated style of the attacks.

India's prime minister blamed "external forces."

"The well-planned and well-orchestrated attacks, probably with external linkages, were intended to create a sense of panic, by choosing high profile targets and indiscriminately killing foreigners," Singh said in address to the nation.

Indian navy spokesman Capt. Manohar Nambiar said navy officers had boarded a cargo vessel that had recently come to Mumbai from Karachi, Pakistan. Hours later, he said nothing suspicious had been found on board and the ship had been released.

Mumbai, on the western coast of India overlooking the Arabian Sea, is home to splendid Victorian architecture built during the British Raj and is one of the most populated cities in the world with some 18 million crammed into shantytowns, high rises and crumbling mansions.

Among the other places attacked was the 19th century Chhatrapati Shivaji railroad station — a beautiful example of Victorian Gothic architecture — where gunmen sprayed bullets into the crowded terminal, leaving the floor splattered with blood.

"They just fired randomly at people and then ran away. In seconds, people fell to the ground," said Nasim Inam, a witness.

Other gunmen attacked Leopold's restaurant, a landmark popular with foreigners, and the police headquarters in southern Mumbai, the area where most of the attacks took place. Gunmen also attacked Cama and Albless Hospital and G.T. Hospital.


Associated Press writers Ramola Talwar Badam, Erika Kinetz and Jenny Barchfield in Mumbai, Raphael G. Satter in London and Cristian Salazar in New York contributed to this report.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: leroi on November 27, 2008, 15:31:07
A geopoltical analysis on possible ramifications of the crisis in Mumbai:

Red Alert: Possible Geopolitical Consequences of the Mumbai Attacks  From STRATFOR (Open Access)
November 27, 2008 0434 GMT

If the Nov. 26 attacks in Mumbai were carried out by Islamist militants as it appears, the Indian government will have little choice, politically speaking, but to blame them on Pakistan. That will in turn spark a crisis between the two nuclear rivals that will draw the United States into the fray.

Militant Attacks In Mumbai and Their Consequences

At this point the situation on the ground in Mumbai remains unclear following the militant attacks of Nov. 26. But in order to understand the geopolitical significance of what is going on, it is necessary to begin looking beyond this event at what will follow. Though the situation is still in motion, the likely consequences of the attack are less murky.

We will begin by assuming that the attackers are Islamist militant groups operating in India, possibly with some level of outside support from Pakistan. We can also see quite clearly that this was a carefully planned, well-executed attack.

Given this, the Indian government has two choices. First, it can simply say that the perpetrators are a domestic group. In that case, it will be held accountable for a failure of enormous proportions in security and law enforcement. It will be charged with being unable to protect the public. On the other hand, it can link the attack to an outside power: Pakistan. In that case it can hold a nation-state responsible for the attack, and can use the crisis atmosphere to strengthen the government’s internal position by invoking nationalism. Politically this is a much preferable outcome for the Indian government, and so it is the most likely course of action. This is not to say that there are no outside powers involved — simply that, regardless of the ground truth, the Indian government will claim there were.

That, in turn, will plunge India and Pakistan into the worst crisis they have had since 2002. If the Pakistanis are understood to be responsible for the attack, then the Indians must hold them responsible, and that means they will have to take action in retaliation — otherwise, the Indian government’s domestic credibility will plunge. The shape of the crisis, then, will consist of demands that the Pakistanis take immediate steps to suppress Islamist radicals across the board, but particularly in Kashmir. New Delhi will demand that this action be immediate and public. This demand will come parallel to U.S. demands for the same actions, and threats by incoming U.S. President Barack Obama to force greater cooperation from Pakistan.

If that happens, Pakistan will find itself in a nutcracker. On the one side, the Indians will be threatening action — deliberately vague but menacing — along with the Americans. This will be even more intense if it turns out, as currently seems likely, that Americans and Europeans were being held hostage (or worse) in the two hotels that were attacked. If the attacks are traced to Pakistan, American demands will escalate well in advance of inauguration day.

There is a precedent for this. In 2002 there was an attack on the Indian parliament in Mumbai by Islamist militants linked to Pakistan. A near-nuclear confrontation took place between India and Pakistan, in which the United States brokered a stand-down in return for intensified Pakistani pressure on the Islamists. The crisis helped redefine the Pakistani position on Islamist radicals in Pakistan.

In the current iteration, the demands will be even more intense. The Indians and Americans will have a joint interest in forcing the Pakistani government to act decisively and immediately. The Pakistani government has warned that such pressure could destabilize Pakistan. The Indians will not be in a position to moderate their position, and the Americans will see the situation as an opportunity to extract major concessions. Thus the crisis will directly intersect U.S. and NATO operations in Afghanistan.

It is not clear the degree to which the Pakistani government can control the situation. But the Indians will have no choice but to be assertive, and the United States will move along the same line. Whether it is the current government in India that reacts, or one that succeeds doesn’t matter. Either way, India is under enormous pressure to respond. Therefore the events point to a serious crisis not simply between Pakistan and India, but within Pakistan as well, with the government caught between foreign powers and domestic realities. Given the circumstances, massive destabilization is possible — never a good thing with a nuclear power.

This is thinking far ahead of the curve, and is based on an assumption of the truth of something we don’t know for certain yet, which is that the attackers were Muslims and that the Pakistanis will not be able to demonstrate categorically that they weren’t involved. Since we suspect they were Muslims, and since we doubt the Pakistanis can be categorical and convincing enough to thwart Indian demands, we suspect that we will be deep into a crisis within the next few days, very shortly after the situation on the ground clarifies itself.

Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: S.M.A. on November 27, 2008, 16:27:44

India's National Security Guard commandos take positions from an adjoining building of Nariman Bhawan, where suspected militants have taken hostage Jewish families, at Colaba, Mumbai, India, Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008.


Indian Rapid Action Force (RAF) personnel sit on the staircase of the Air India building near The Trident Hotel in Mumbai.


An Indian soldier takes position outside Nariman House in Mumbai. India's premier said those behind coordinated attacks against Mumbai were based "outside the country" and warned "neighbours" who provide a haven to anti-India militants.
(AFP/Sajjad Hussain)

(AP Photo/Mumbai Mirror, Sebastian D'souza)[/i]

( (

A terrorist gunman walks at the Chatrapathi Sivaji Terminal railway station in Mumbai, India, Wednesday, Nov. 26, 2008.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: S.M.A. on November 27, 2008, 16:29:52

Hemant Karkare, chief of the police anti-terrorist squad in Mumbai, speaks on a mobile phone at a temple in Mumbai July 17, 2007. Karkare was killed during attacks in the financial hub on November 26, 2008, Indian television channels reported.


Army personnel take position at the Gateway of India that stands in front of Taj Hotel in Mumbai November 27, 2008.


National Security Guard (NSG) commandos carry bomb-defusing equipment near the Taj hotel in Mumbai November 27, 2008.


An Indian army sniper climbs up scaffolding near The Taj Mahal Hotel in Mumbai on November 27.
(AFP/Indranil Mukherjee)


Indian Central Reserve Police Force soliders patrol outside Nariman House, the scene of one of a string of coordinated attacks in Mumbai on November 27, 2008. Prime Minister Gordon Brown has condemned the attacks in Mumbai that have killed more than 100 people as "outrageous".
(AFP/Sajjad Hussain)
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: tomahawk6 on November 27, 2008, 18:51:15
Mumbai has been the focus of several islamist attacks including an attack on the rail station and the locals didnt see any improved reaction by the security forces. Basically if it hadnt happened before there wasnt a plan.

AHMEDABAD: A fishing trawler that went missing on November 14 may have carried the terrorists to Colaba coast to hold Mumbai hostage on Wednesday, 
police sources told TOI.

This boat - Kuber - belongs to a fisherman from Porbander, Vinod Masani, who has been detained by Porbander police for interrogation. Indian Coast Guard spotted the boat with the body of captain Amarsing Naran, 30, in it. Four crew from Navsari and Junagadh districts are still missing. The Coast Guard is also looking for another missing boat which could have been used by terrorists.

It is suspected that this trawler was captured by the terrorists on high seas to be used as their transport vehicle to reach Gateway of India from Karachi port.

Sources in Porbander confirmed that the boat was traced by a Chetak helicopter of Mumbai Coast Guard some 20 nautical miles off Porbander.

This boat had set sail for Jakhau in Kutch near India-Pakistan border for fishing on November 14. Usually these boats return from fishing within 10 days but this one did not. The fisheries department was alerted about this on November 24. Kuber, with a 118 HP marine engine, had five crew members on board. It has a maximum speed of seven to eight nautical miles per hour. The boat is 45x15x11 feet in size and costs Rs 30 lakh. It can carry up to 20 tonnes.

Porbander district headquarters' Coast Guard is interrogating Vinod Masani and his brother Hiralal, who has the power of attorney for the boat. It is also suspected that the Pakistan Marine Agency helped the terrorists hijack the trawler. The missing crew include Balwant Prabhu, 45, Mukesh Rathod, 20, and Natu Nanu, 20, of Navsari and Ramesh Nagji, 37, of Junagadh.

Porbander SP Dipankar Trivedi said, "We are in the process of interrogating some people.'' The suspicion is that terrorists used the trawler to reach Mumbai's marine borders and then used two inflatable boats to reach Colaba.

Junagadh IG I M Desai said, "We have no confirmed information, but know about a fishing boat from Porbander that was missing.''

A massive manhunt was launched off the Mumbai coast on Wednesday by Coast Guard, Navy, marine wing of Mumbai Police and Customs after it became  evident that most, if not all, of the terrorists had arrived in the city through sea route.

Coast Guard's IG (Western Region) Rajendra Singh said three helicopters, two Dorniers, three large ships, two smaller vessels were involved in the search operation.

About eight terrorists came in from the sea off Badhwar Park in Colaba in geminicraft (inflatable boat) with a 20-HP engine around 9pm on Wednesday. A police officer of the Cuffe Parade police station said fishermen near the jetty got suspicious as they deserted the boat and headed towards the road. "When the fishermen stopped them, they said, ‘ humko tension hai ’ and pointed their weapons,'' said the police officer.

Another officer of the Cuffe Parade police station said, "The fishermen told us they were about 10-12 men. They split into two groups. While one group went towards CST and other towards Colaba. The engine and chasiss number of the Yamaha motor engine used for the boat has been scrapped, so as to make it difficult to trace the place of purchase.''

A retired IPS officer said the fishermen had also called the police, but they came late. An official said boats deserted by terrorists have been found in Colaba and off Chowpatty.

Meanwhile, a merchant vessel, MV Alpha, suspected to have ferried the terrorists, was intercepted on the high seas by Navy and Coast Guard warships on Thursday evening. Though some reports said the Vietnamese-registered MV Alpha had been given the "clean chit'', a senior Naval officer told TOI the ship was still being investigated after it was boarded by naval and Coast Guard personnel on the high seas off Gujarat's coast. "A probe will take some time. The vessel's crew and manifest are being checked,'' he said.

Earlier, launching a surveillance with warships, Dornier aircraft and copters, armed forces began a hunt for "a mother ship'' which could have carried the perpetrators of the terror strikes since three inflatable Zodiac gemini boats were found abandoned at the dock near the Gateway of India.

"MV Alpha, which came to Mumbai from Saudi Arabia on November 19 and left on Wednesday night, was found to be suspicious. It had sailed around 50 nautical miles away Mumbai by 7 am on Thursday,'' said an officer.

A naval Veer-class guided missile corvette INS Vipul and a Coast Guard T-81 fast-attack craft were soon launched, along with two Dornier medium-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft, to track and intercept MV Alpha.

Simultaneously, a Leander-class frigate INS Vindhyagiri was also diverted from its routine patrol at sea to hunt for the merchant vessel. Moreover, the IAF scrambled maritime-strike Jaguar fighters from Jamnagar to patrol the region. All this activity came amid indications that the aim was to block any attempt by a "suspect'' ship to reach Pakistan.

"Ten Army columns (around 1,000 soldiers) and four units of marine commandos were deployed in and around the Taj Mahal and Trident hotels. An aerial and land surveillance at the approaches to the Mumbai harbour was also conducted, with antecedents of all vessels in and around the region being checked,'' said an official.

Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: MarkOttawa on November 27, 2008, 20:23:58
The Guardian's PC meter must be on the blink...

Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: S.M.A. on November 28, 2008, 01:58:52

An Indian commando gives relief to another at the Taj Hotel in Mumbai, India, Friday, Nov. 28, 2008. The well-coordinated strikes by small bands of gunmen starting Wednesday night left the city shell-shocked, but the sporadic gunfire and explosions at the Taj Mahal and Oberoi hotels dwindled overnight, indicating the siege might be winding down.
(AP Photo/Gautam Singh)


Indian Commandos with sniffer dogs come out of the Taj Mahal Hotel in Mumbai during operations. US administration officials Thursday anxiously monitored a terrorist seige underway in Mumbai, where attacks across the city left more than 125 dead and Islamist gunmen reportedly held foreign hostages in luxury hotels.
(AFP/Prakash Singh)


An Indian military helicopter flies over the building in which suspected militants are hiding in Mumbai November 28, 2008. Gunfire erupted on Friday when commandos began an operation to free Israelis held by suspected Islamist gunmen in Mumbai, while guests were also being evacuated from a luxury hotel in India's financial heart, witnesses said.
REUTERS/Punit Paranjpe (INDIA)


Indian commandos take up positions in the Colaba district of Mumbai. Indian security forces have arrested three militants, including a Pakistani national, inside a Mumbai hotel attacked by a group of gunmen, the Press Trust of India news agency reported early Friday.
(AFP/Prakash Singh)
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: tomahawk6 on November 28, 2008, 02:05:38
The last pic is of the NSG or Black Cats commando unit.They are the best India has for this type of work. The force has about 7500 personnel. One NSG Major was killed today during the security operation. Progress is being made and hostages have been freed. I suspect the final death toll wont be known unil the weekend.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: D3 on November 28, 2008, 08:05:04
What do you think the odds are that the perps were receiving some sort of support from elements in the ISI??  Will be very interesting to see what happens
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: Yrys on November 28, 2008, 08:37:13
Indian commandos storm besieged Jewish centre; Mumbai death toll now 143 (

By Ravi Nessman, The Associated PressMUMBAI, India - Commandos ended a siege of the luxury Oberoi hotel on Friday while other forces rappelled
from helicopters to storm a besieged Jewish centre, two days after a chain of militant attacks across India's financial centre left at least 143 people
dead, including one Canadian.

While explosions and gunfire continued intermittently at the elegant Taj Mahal hotel Friday afternoon, officials said commandos had killed two gunmen inside
the nearby Oberoi hotel and ended the attack there. Among those freed from the hotels were five Canadians.

"The hotel is under our control," J.K. Dutt, director general of India's elite National Security Guard commando unit, told reporters, adding that 24 bodies had
been found. Dozens of people - including a man clutching a baby - had been evacuated from Oberoi earlier Friday. The airborne assault on the centre run by
the ultra-orthodox Jewish outreach group Chabad Lubavitch was punctuated by gunshots and explosions as forces cleared it floor by floor, according to an
Associated Press reporter at the scene. By Friday afternoon, the commandos had control of the top two floors.

One camouflaged commando came out with a bandage on his forehead, while soldiers fired smoke grenades into the building and a steady stream of gunfire
reverberated across narrow alleys. It was not immediately clear if there were hostages inside.

More than 143 people were killed and 288 injured when suspected Islamic militants attacked 10 sites in Mumbai starting Wednesday evening. The dead Canadian
was not identified and details about the death were not released by Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon in a statement early Friday. The victim's family had
been notified.

Cannon's office said later Friday morning that five Canadians who were "confirmed in unsafe conditions" in hotels attacked by the gunmen were now safe and
meeting with Canadian officials. It is not known whether they had been held hostage or were trapped in their rooms as police and gunmen battled. No other
details were released.

Security officials in Mumbai said their operations were almost over. "It's just a matter of a few hours that we'll be able to wrap up things," Lt. Gen. N. Thamburaj
told reporters Friday morning.

The group rescued from the Oberoi, many holding passports, included at least two Americans, a Briton, two Japanese nationals and several Indians. Some carried
luggage with Canadian flags. One man in a chef's uniform was holding a small baby. About 20 airline crew members were freed, including staff from Lufthansa and
Air France. "I'm going home, I'm going to see my wife," said Mark Abell, with a huge smile on his face after emerging from the hotel. Abell, from Britain, had locked
himself in his room during the siege.

The well-co-ordinated strikes by small bands of gunmen starting Wednesday night left the city shell-shocked. Late Thursday, after about 400 people had been brought
out of the Taj hotel, officials said it had been cleared of gunmen. But Friday morning, army commanders said that while three gunmen had been killed, two to three
more were still inside with about 15 civilians. A few hours after that, Thamburaj, the security official, said at least one gunman was still alive inside the hotel and had
cut off electricity on the floor where he was hiding. Shortly after that announcement, another round of explosions and gunfire were heard coming from the hotel.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh blamed "external forces" for the violence - a phrase sometimes used to refer to Pakistani militants, whom Indian authorities often
blame for attacks. On Friday, India's foreign minister ratcheted up the accusations over the attacks. "According to preliminary information, some elements in Pakistan
are responsible for Mumbai terror attacks," Pranab Mukherjee told reporters in the western city of Jodhpur.

"Proof cannot be disclosed at this time," he said, adding that Pakistan had assured New Delhi it would not allow its territory to be used for attacks against India. India
has long accused Islamabad of allowing militant Muslim groups, particularly those fighting in the disputed Himalayan region of Kashmir, to train and take shelter in
Pakistan. Mukherjee's carefully phrased comments appeared to indicate he was accusing Pakistan-based groups of staging the attack, and not Pakistan itself. Islamabad
has long denied those accusations.

Earlier Friday, Pakistan's Deafens Minister Ahmed Mukhtar, in Islamabad, denied involvement by his country: "I will say in very categoric terms that Pakistan is not
involved in these gory incidents."

The gunmen were well-prepared, apparently scouting some targets ahead of time and carrying large bags of almonds to keep up their energy. "It's obvious they were
trained somewhere ... Not everyone can handle the AK series of weapons or throw grenades like that," an unidentified member of India's Marine Commando unit told
reporters, his face wrapped in a black mask. He said the men were "very determined and remorseless."

India has been shaken repeatedly by terror attacks blamed on Muslim militants in recent years, but most were bombings striking crowded places: markets, street
corners, parks. Mumbai - one of the most populated cities in the world with some 18 million people - was hit by a series of bombings in July 2006 that killed 187 people.
These attacks were more sophisticated - and more brazen.

Analysts around the world were debating whether the gunmen could have been tied to - or inspired by - al-Qaida. A previously unknown group calling itself the Deccan
Mujahideen claimed responsibility in e-mails to several media outlets. The Deccan is a region in southern India that was traditionally ruled by Muslim kings.

Survivors of the hotel attacks said the gunmen had specifically targeted Britons and Americans, though most of the dead seemed to be Indians and whoever else was
caught in the random gunfire. One of the gunmen "stopped once and asked, 'Where are you from? Any British or American? Show your ID," Alex Chamberlain, a British
citizen dining at the Oberoi, told reporters. Among the dead were two Australians and a Japanese, said the state home ministry. An Italian, a Briton and a German were
also killed, according to their foreign ministries.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: tomahawk6 on November 28, 2008, 10:57:25
India has requested the Director of ISI to come to India for consultations.

Two British-born Pakistanis were among eight gunmen seized by Indian commandos who stormed buildings to free hostages, Vilasrao Deshmukh, the chief minister of Mumbai, reportedly said.

The Foreign Office earlier said it was investigating reports on NDTV, a local television news channel, that the terrorists - who swarmed luxury hotels and other tourist sites in the city - included "British citizens of Pakistani origin".

The development came as Gordon Brown called for international co-ordination to combat terrorism in the wake of the attacks. He said: "We have got to look at how international action against terrorism can be improved."

On the claim that Britons could have been among the perpetrators, he said: "I would not want to be drawn into early conclusions about this.

"Obviously when you have terrorists operating in one country, they may be getting support from another country or coming from another country, and it is very important that we strengthen the co-operation between India and Britain in dealing with these instances of terrorist attacks."

Describing events as "atrocious", the Prime Minister told Sky News: "It is clear that we have got to help the Indian government deal with this terrorist incident and we have sent people from the Metropolitan Police to help."

Mr Brown, who is to talk to Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh later on Friday, said he did not believe there were any further Britons among hostages.

One Briton, Andreas Liveras, the founder of a luxury yacht business who was in his 70s, has been confirmed among the dead, while at least seven are known to have been injured.

Mr Brown said: "Of course, we are mourning the death of a British citizen who has died and as the high commissioner visits hospitals in the Mumbai area, we are hoping to discover more in terms of the number of people injured."

The Prime Minister's comments came as Indian commando troops cleared the last terrorists from buildings across Mumbai.

At the Oberoi Hotel, at least 25 captives - including two Britons and another clutching a baby - were rushed out and loaded into waiting cars, buses and ambulances.

Mark Abell, a British lawyer, who on Thursday spoke to The Daily Telegraph while barricaded into his hotel room, was among those released. He said: "I'm going home, I'm going to see my wife."

He added: "These people here have been fantastic, the Indian authorities, the hotel staff. I think they are a great advertisement for their country."

Another man, who said he was British but would not give his name, said: "I didn't see anything. I just heard loud blasts. I was in my room. I didn't get out until an hour ago."

Nicole Griffen, another Briton, said she had been rescued by Indian special forces from the Taj Mahal.

She told BBC Radio 5 Live: "They entered and looked through our passports and scouted around to see if there was (anyone) harbouring terrorists or attackers.

"And then we were promptly told where to go by the central stairway and again we were asked to wait with other guests while they checked other floors and checked other rooms and we all congregated into one space where they could protect us centrally."

Heavy gunfire was heard early on Friday as commandos were dropped by helicopter on to the roof of a Jewish centre where at least 10 hostages were believed to be held.

A group calling itself Deccan Mujahideen has claimed responsibility for the attacks.

However, Mr Singh blamed "external forces" for the violence - a phrase sometimes used to refer to Pakistani militants, whom Indian authorities often blame for attacks.

The country's foreign minister was more explicit.

"According to preliminary information, some elements in Pakistan are responsible," Pranab Mukherjee said.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: NFLD Sapper on November 28, 2008, 12:32:43
Canadian killed in Mumbai attacks: Cannon (
Last Updated: Friday, November 28, 2008 | 9:09 AM ET CBC News

One Canadian was killed in this week's series of deadly attacks on targets in Mumbai, Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon confirmed early Friday.

Canadian officials in Mumbai told CBC News that they can account for 20 Canadians who were staying at either the Trident-Oberoi luxury hotel or the Taj Mahal Palace hotel, two of the sites targeted in the attacks. Officials said that 17 of the Canadians are safe, while one died and two were injured.

The identity of the dead Canadian will not be released until relatives have been notified, Cannon said in the teleconference statement.

Cannon did not provide any details of the circumstances surrounding the death. It was not immediately clear where the person was killed.

"We are now able to confirm the tragic death of one Canadian in these attacks," Cannon said. "The family of the victim has been notified and consular officials are providing full assistance. Our sincere condolences and thoughts are with the family."

The Canadian government had already confirmed that two Canadians were among those injured in the co-ordinated gun and grenade attacks, which were carried out across 10 locations beginning Wednesday evening.

Canadians looking for information on relatives in Mumbai can contact the Department of Foreign Affairs at 1-613-996-8885 from inside Canada or 1-800-387-3124 from other countries.
Montreal voice actor Michael Rudder, a past Genie Award nominee who was visiting India with a U.S. meditation group, was one of the two Canadians wounded.

When militants stormed one of the city's hotels, he suffered three gunshot wounds, but has undergone surgery and is recovering in the critical care wing of a Mumbai hospital.

Helen Connolly of Markham, Ont., just outside Toronto, a yoga instructor, was grazed by a bullet.

On Friday, police found 24 bodies at the Trident-Oberoi luxury hotel after commandos regained control of the building, raising the death toll to more than 140 people. Earlier, at least seven foreign captives, some of whom had Canadian flags on their luggage, had emerged from the hotel.

But the battle to free hostages continued at the Taj Mahal Palace hotel and a Jewish centre as security forces clashed with militants suspected of killing 143 people.

According to reports earlier Thursday, six foreigners were killed, including at least one Australian, a Japanese and a British national, said Pradeep Indulkar, a senior government official of Maharashtra state, whose capital is Mumbai. A German and an Italian were also killed, according to the foreign ministries in the two countries.

The attacks were launched on Wednesday night, as militants armed with rifles and grenades attacked the sprawling city of about 13 million people. The gunmen struck a total of 10 sites, including a packed train station, a restaurant popular with tourists, the Jewish community centre, hospitals and the two luxury hotels.

The previously unknown group calling itself the Deccan Mujahideen claimed responsibility in e-mails to several media outlets.

Most of the dead were Indian nationals — many of whom died in the attack on Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus train station as gunmen fired indiscriminately on waiting passengers.

Fourteen police officers, including the chief of the anti-terror squad, were among those killed in the attacks.

Survivors of the hotel attacks said the gunmen had specifically targeted Britons and Americans.

With files from the Canadian and Associated Press, Reuters
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: Retired AF Guy on November 28, 2008, 20:06:59
From the South Asian Terrorism Portal  ( the following info:

Maharashtra Police investigators said that they have evidence that operatives of the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) carried out the Fidayeen (suicide squad) attacks in Mumbai. An injured militant, identified as Ajmal Amir Kamal, was arrested during the fighting at the Taj Mahal hotel, is suspected to be a LeT cadre and a resident of Faridkot near Multan in Pakistan’s Punjab province. Reportedly two other citizens of Pakistan have also been arrested in Mumbai on November 27. All three of them, identified themselves as members of a LeT Fidayeen squad, the sources said. Based on the interrogation of the suspects, the investigators believe that one or more groups of the LeT left Karachi in a merchant ship early on November 26. On the same night, an estimated 12 terrorists left the ship in a small boat and travelled some 10 nautical miles to reach Mumbai’s Gateway of India. After reaching Gateway of India, the group split up into at least six groups, each focussing on a separate target - Mumbai’s Nariman House, the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus rail station, the Cama hospital, the Girgaum seafront, and the Taj and Trident hotels.

Of course, in situations like this information is going to be confused and lots of speculation as to who is responsible. However, the fact that the Indians authorities captured some of the attackers who may be "persuaded" to prove some useful info should help to clear the air.

Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: tomahawk6 on November 28, 2008, 20:39:15
One of the SAT phones recovered had the LeT commanders phone number.Throw in 2 UK citizens of Pakistani origin and a circumstantial case could be made that the terrorists had external support.

The operation appears to be over. Now they will remove the bodies as they search the hotel for explosives and guests trapped in their rooms.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: NFLD Sapper on November 29, 2008, 00:17:01
Reign of violence in Mumbai ends as authorities seize hotel (
5 hostages found dead at Jewish centre
Last Updated: Friday, November 28, 2008 | 11:00 PM ET CBC News

Indian commandos have ended their siege of a luxury Mumbai hotel being held by gunmen, bringing an end to nearly three days of violence in India's financial capital that has left more than 150 dead.

The assault at the Taj Mahal Palace hotel, one of two luxury hotels targeted in the Mumbai attacks, ended early Saturday morning, hours after another standoff at a Jewish centre in the city finished with the discovery of five slain hostages.

"Taj is under our control," Mumbai police chief Hasan Gafoor said, adding that the remaining gunmen in the hotel had been killed.

 Jyoti Krishna Dutt, chief of the elite National Security Guards commando force, said the militants had "set places ablaze" as they moved through the hotel battling his commandos for more than 48 hours.

He said said every room on every floor of the hotel needed to be checked.

As darkness fell on the city late Friday, gunfire and explosions were heard inside the Taj Mahal, where at least one militant was still thought to be holding two hostages more than two days after the first attacks plunged Mumbai into chaos, the CBC's Terry Milewski reported from the city.

Officials said earlier in the daythat at least nine gunmen had been killed in clashes with security forces at the Taj Mahal, but almost all guests and staff had been freed.

Meanwhile, commandos on Friday ended a similar standoff at the Jewish centre by lowering themselves from helicopters and blowing a hole in the office wall.

During the operation, the commandos killed two militants, only to discover the bodies of the hostages inside, the city's police chief confirmed.

Two of the hostages killed were identified as Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg and his wife, Rivka, the couple who ran the centre, said a spokesman for the Chabad-Lubavitch movement. Their 18-month-old son had been one of three people rescued from the centre on Thursday.

In a telephone interview with CBC News from outside the centre, freelance journalist Arun Asthhana said there are reports that some of the militants had stayed at a guest house there for up to 15 days before the attacks.

"They had a huge mass of ammunition, arms and food there," Asthhana said.

Couple 'spread love' to travellers: rabbi

The slain rabbi and his wife were emissaries who had made their home in Mumbai and set up the centre to give Jews visiting India a place to feel at home, get kosher food and reconnect with their heritage, according to friends.

"We are all crushed," said Rabbi Shalom Paltiel, a friend of the couple who serves a congregation in New York.

He said the Holtzbergs "opened their home and their hearts" to many "lost" travellers struggling with their faith, as well as a range of personal troubles.

"This guy saved lives, Paltiel told CBC News on Friday. "Him and his wife have a book of stories of people who were suicidal, people who were on drugs … who they've taken out and given their humanity back, their spirituality back.

"These are heroes in every sense of the word."

Commandos regain control of hotel
The grim discovery came just hours after commandos regained control of another five-star hotel complex, the Trident-Oberoi, where police recovered 24 bodies.

"The Oberoi Hotel and Trident are now under our control," Jyoti Krishan Dutt, director-general of the country's National Security Guards, told reporters on Friday. "Oberoi, Trident have been evacuated. We have killed two terrorists."

The announcement came after police said 93 guests had been freed from the hotel.

The death toll from the attacks could rise as security forces search each room of the hotels. The head of one commando unit said he has seen 12 to 15 bodies in one room of the Taj Mahal hotel.

In a news conference, the commando commander, who was not identified and had his face disguised by black scarf and sunglasses, told reporters that his forces at the Taj found money, ammunition and an identity card from Mauritius that they suspected belonged to the militants.

More than 400 people were brought out of the 565-room Taj Mahal hotel on Thursday, officials said, after security forces moved from room to room in the hotel, looking for gunmen and booby traps. In the afternoon, bodies and hostages were taken out of the building.

A Muslim organization calling itself Deccan Mujahedeen has claimed responsibility for the attacks.

10 sites targeted
The attacks were launched on Wednesday night, as militants armed with rifles and grenades attacked the sprawling city of about 13 million people. The gunmen struck a total of 10 sites, including a packed train station, a restaurant popular with tourists, the Jewish community centre, hospitals and the two luxury hotels.

The previously unknown group calling itself the Deccan Mujahideen claimed responsibility in e-mails to several media outlets.

Most of the dead were Indian nationals — many of whom died in the attack on Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus train station as gunmen fired indiscriminately on waiting passengers. At least 22 foreigners were reportedly killed in the attacks.

Fourteen police officers, including the chief of the anti-terror squad, were among those killed in the attacks.

Survivors of the hotel attacks said the gunmen had specifically targeted Britons and Americans.

Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has blamed "external forces" for the violence — a phrase sometimes used to refer to Pakistani militants, whom Indian authorities often blame for attacks.

On Friday, Indian Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee said according to preliminary information, "some elements in Pakistan" were responsible.

"Proof cannot be disclosed at this time," he said, adding that Pakistan had assured New Delhi it would not allow its territory to be used for attacks against India.

As well, there were reports that the British government was investigating whether some of the attackers could be British citizens with links to Pakistan.

With files from Terry Milewski, Reuters and the Associated Press

2 Canadians killed in Mumbai attacks: Cannon (
Last Updated: Friday, November 28, 2008 | 10:59 PM ET CBC News
Two Canadians were killed in this week's series of deadly attacks on targets in Mumbai, Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon said late Friday.

Following an early morning announcement that one Canadian had died in the attacks, Cannon issued another statement around 8 p.m. ET that said a second person was now confirmed dead.

No details were immediately available, including the person's identity.

"I offer my deepest sympathies to the family and friends of the deceased," Cannon said in a statement. "The next of kin have been notified, and our consular officers have put themselves at their service."

A friend of the first person announced dead told CBC News his name was Michael Moss, a doctor from the Montreal area. Canadian officials have not provided any identifying information.

At least 150 people are now confirmed to have died in the attacks.

Canadian officials in Mumbai told CBC News that they can account for 20 Canadians who were staying at either the Trident-Oberoi luxury hotel or the Taj Mahal Palace hotel, two of the sites targeted in the attacks. Officials said that 17 of the Canadians are safe, while one died and two were injured.

Canadians looking for information on relatives in Mumbai can contact the Department of Foreign Affairs at 1-800-387-3124 from inside Canada or call 613-996-8885 collect from other countries.
Cannon did not provide any details of the circumstances surrounding either of the deaths, including when and where they occurred.

Attacks were carried out at 10 locations across India's financial capital — including two luxury hotels, a crowded train station, a hospital and a popular cafe — beginning Wednesday evening.

Moss was a British-trained general practitioner who immigrated to Manitoba from England more than 30 years ago, according to Dr. Ron Ludman, one of his colleagues in Montreal. He was travelling in Mumbai on vacation.

Ludman said he was told by Moss's daughter that he died in Mumbai on Wednesday.

Another colleague, Dr. David Wiegens, said Moss will be sorely missed.

"I think he'll be along with me as I'm continuing to take care of my patients, as a voice, as an independent mind, as a really dedicated physician, and as a friend," Wiegens said, adding that Moss was days away from returning from his four-week holiday.

The Canadian government had already confirmed that two Canadians were among those injured in the co-ordinated gun and grenade attacks.

Montreal voice actor Michael Rudder, a past Genie Award nominee who was visiting India with a U.S. meditation group, was one of the two Canadians wounded.

When militants stormed one of the city's hotels, he suffered three gunshot wounds, but has undergone surgery and is recovering in the critical care wing of a Mumbai hospital.

Helen Connolly of Markham, Ont., just outside Toronto, a yoga instructor, was grazed by a bullet.

Two other American members of the meditation group, Alan Scherr, 58, and his daughter, Naomi, 13, were killed in the attack, said Bobbie Garvey, spokeswoman for the Synchronicity Foundation.

'Terrifying experience'
Garvey said the group's trip to Mumbai was "like a pilgrimage," but turned into an "intense, terrifying experience" as members hid in their rooms for up to 45 hours amid stifling smoke, gunfire and grenade explosions.

"Most of them had their mattresses and their bureaus up against the door," Garvey told reporters at a news conference Friday in Faber, Va., where the foundation is based.

"They didn't know at any time if that door was going to open and it was going to be someone to save them, or it was going to be someone to take them out."

24 bodies found in luxury hotel
On Friday, police found 24 bodies at the Trident-Oberoi luxury hotel after commandos regained control of the building, raising the death toll to more than 150 people. Earlier, at least seven foreign captives, some of whom had Canadian flags on their luggage, had emerged from the hotel.

But the battle to free hostages continued at the Taj Mahal Palace hotel and a Jewish centre as security forces clashed with the militants responsible for the attacks.

According to reports earlier Thursday, six foreigners were killed, including at least one Australian, a Japanese and a British national, said Pradeep Indulkar, a senior government official of Maharashtra state, whose capital is Mumbai. A German and an Italian were also killed, according to the foreign ministries in the two countries.

The attacks were launched on Wednesday night, as militants armed with rifles and grenades attacked the sprawling city of about 13 million people. The gunmen struck a total of 10 sites, including a packed train station, a restaurant popular with tourists, the Jewish community centre, hospitals and the two luxury hotels.

The previously unknown group calling itself the Deccan Mujahedeen claimed responsibility in e-mails to several media outlets.

Most of the dead were Indian nationals — many of whom died in the attack on Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus train station as gunmen fired indiscriminately on waiting passengers.

Fourteen police officers, including the chief of the anti-terror squad, were among those killed in the attacks.

Survivors of the hotel attacks said the gunmen had specifically targeted Britons and Americans.

With files from the Canadian Press, the Associated Press and Reuters
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: tomahawk6 on November 29, 2008, 01:13:26
This man was captured and his story is below.



His swaggering image as he walked around Chhatrapati Shivaji terminus dispensing death was captured by Mumbai Mirror photo editor Sebastian D' souza, and was the first glimpse of the terrorists who have held Mumbai hostage over the last 48 hours.

Now we can also tell you who this man is and how he has become the vital link for investigating agencies to crack the terror plot.
His name is Azam Amir Kasav, he is 21 years old, speaks fluent English, hails from tehsil Gipalpura in Faridkot in Pakistan, and is the only terrorist from this audacious operation to have been captured alive.

An ATS spokesperson confirmed that the man captured was indeed the one photographed by us.
On the night of Wednesday-Thursday Azam and his colleague opened fire at CST before creating havoc at Metro and then moving on to Girgaum Chowpatty in a stolen Skoda, and where they were intercepted by a team from the Gamdevi police station. Azam shot dead assistant police inspector Tukaram Umbale.

But in that encounter Azam's colleague was killed and he himself was injured in the hand. He pretended to be dead giving rise to the news that two terrorists had been killed. However as the 'bodies' were being taken to Nair Hospital, the accompanying cops figured that one of the men was breathing.

According to sources, the casualty ward of Nair hospital was evacuated and the Anti-Terror Squad moved in to interrogate him. Azam who was tight-lipped initially, cracked upon seeing the mutilated body of his colleague and pleaded with the medical staff at Nair to save his life. "I do not want to die," he reportedly said. "Please put me on saline."

Ammunition, a satellite phone and a layout plan of CST was recovered from him. According to sources the young terrorist has given the investigators vital leads including how the chief planner of the Mumbai terror plot had come to the city a month ago, took picture and filmed strategic locations and trained their group and instructed them to "kill till the last breath." Every man was given six to seven magazines with fifty bullets each, eight hand grenades per terrorist with one AK-57, an automaticloading revolver and a supply of dry fruits.

Azam reportedly disclosed that the group left Karachi in one boat and upon reaching Gujarat they hoisted a white flag on their boat and were intercepted by two officers of the coast guard near Porbandar and while they were being questioned one of the terrorists grappled with one of the officers slit his throat and threw the body in the boat. The other officer was told to help the group reach Mumbai. When they were four nautical miles away from Mumbai there were three speedboats waiting for them where the other coastguard officer was killed. All the ammo was then shifted into these three spedboats they reached Colaba jetty on Wednesday night and the ten men broke up into groups of two each. Four of these men went to the Taj Mahal hotel, two of them to the Trident hotel, two towards Nariman House at Colaba and two of which Azam was one moved to CST.
Azam, who was at Nair hospital for nearly four hours, was taken away by the intelligence agencies in the early hours of Thursday to an unknown location after the hospital authorities had removed the bullet from his hand and declared that his condition stable. But it seems the police grilling was so intense that before he left the hospital for an undisclosed location he pleaded with the police and the medical staff to kill him. "Now, I don't want to live," he said.

Azam Amir Kasav, 21, from Faridkot Pakistan, is the only terrorist so far to have been captured alive.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: S.M.A. on November 29, 2008, 01:34:32
More pictures from today:


Indian National security Guard (NSG) commandos rappel down from a helicopter onto the roof of Nariman House, which houses a Jewish centre, in Mumbai November 28, 2008. Gunfire erupted on Friday when commandos began an operation to free Israelis held by suspected Islamist gunmen in Mumbai, while guests were also being evacuated from a luxury hotel in India's financial heart, witnesses said. REUTERS/Stringer


National Security Guard (NSG) commandos take positions near a Jewish centre in Mumbai November 28, 2008.
REUTERS/Jayatha Shaw (INDIA)


A commando fires at suspected terrorists holed up in a house owned by Israelis in Colaba, Mumbai, India, Friday, Nov. 28, 2008. Security forces assaulted a Jewish center in Mumbai where Muslim militants were believed holed up with possible hostages Friday, with black-clad commandos dropping from a Indian helicopter as sharpshooters opened fire on the five-story building.
(AP Photo/Saurabh Das)


A National Security Guard commando rappels from a helicopter near Nariman House, where suspected militants are believed to be hiding, in Mumbai November 28, 2008. Pakistan's spy chief has agreed to share intelligence with New Delhi on the brazen militant attacks in Mumbai, India said on Friday, as a siege at two hotels and a Jewish centre neared its end amid gunfire and more deaths. Nariman House has mainly Jewish residents.


An Indian commando abseils from a helicopter onto the rooftop of Nariman House in Mumbai. Special forces have stormed a Mumbai Jewish centre and battled to free guests at two hotels, as India blamed Pakistan for an audacious Islamist militant attack that left at least 130 people dead.
(AFP/Pedro Ugarte)


Indian commandos prepare to attack from the rooftop of Nariman House in Mumbai.
(AFP/Prakash Singh)


The windows on the first floor of the Taj Mahal hotel shatter after the use of a grenade launcher in Mumbai, India, Friday, Nov. 28, 2008.
(AP Photo/Rajanish Kakade)


Army personnel carry a grenade launcher after using it on the facade of Taj Mahal Hotel in Mumbai, India, Friday, Nov. 28, 2008.
(AP Photo/Gurinder Osan)


An Indian policeman aims his rifle during a hostage rescue operation at Nariman House in Mumbai. Special forces have stormed a Mumbai Jewish centre and battled to free guests at two hotels, as India blamed Pakistan for an audacious Islamist militant attack that left at least 130 people dead.
(AFP/Pedro Ugarte)


An Indian soldiers aims at Taj Mahal Hotel where suspected militants are holed up during an assault in Mumbai, India, Friday, Nov. 28, 2008.
(AP Photo/Altaf Qadri)


National Security Guard chief Jyoti Krishan Dutt, center left, looks on after announcing the completion of commando operation at the Oberoi Trident Hotel in Mumbai, India, Friday, Nov. 28, 2008. Commandos rappelling from helicopters stormed a besieged Jewish center Friday and scoured two landmark luxury hotels to rush survivors to safety and flush out gunmen, two days after a chain of militant attacks across India's financial center left people dead and the city in panic.
(AP Photo/Gurinder Osan)
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: S.M.A. on November 29, 2008, 01:51:00
More details about the end of this operation:

Battle for Mumbai ends: Last Islamic extremists killed

Agence France-Presse
First Posted 11:20:00 11/29/2008

MUMBAI—(UPDATE 2) Commandos killed three holdout gunmen Saturday in Mumbai's Taj Hotel, bringing an end to a two-day Islamic extremist assault on India's financial capital that left at least 155 dead, including 21 foreigners.

The final attack on the historic seafront hotel was marked by heavy gunfire and loud explosions that triggered a fierce fire, as special forces units moved against gunmen who had held hundreds of security personnel at bay for three nights.

"All operations are over. All the terrorists have been killed," Mumbai police commissioner Hassan Gafoor said, 59 hours after the attacks began.

On Friday, elite troops stormed a Mumbai Jewish center and killed two gunmen -- but also found five dead Israeli hostages, including a US-based rabbi and his wife, who were murdered as the commandos closed in.

The other luxury hotel that was attacked, the Oberoi/Trident, was declared clear of militants late Friday, with scores of trapped guests rescued and 24 bodies found.

"They were the kind of people with no remorse -- anybody and whomsoever came in front of them they fired," an Indian commando said of the young gunmen who slipped into Mumbai on Wednesday evening.

The head of the commando forces, J.K. Dutt, said his men were conducting a final sweep of the battle-scarred Taj.

"We are now going through each and every room to make sure it is safe," Dutt said, appealing to any guests still hiding in the hotel to make themselves known.

"They must open their curtains so that our security forces can see inside and make sure there are only guests and no terrorist inside," he said.

Police officials put the death toll at around 155 people, with 327 others wounded. TV channels described the attacks as "India's 9/11."

The 21 foreigners killed included the Israelis, two Americans, two French nationals, two Australians, a German, a Japanese, a Canadian, a British Cypriot, an Italian and a Singaporean.

A government minister said the overall toll could rise as more corpses are recovered.

"Once the bodies are collected, the number of deaths might go up to 200," India's Minister of State for Home Affairs Sri Prakash Jaiswal told the Press Trust of India.

At least 11 militants were confirmed dead and one captured. Indian intelligence sources said the detained gunman had confessed to coming from Pakistan.

One group entered the city by boat, while others were believed to have been inside the city -- stockpiling arms and explosives -- well before the attacks were launched.

The crisis risked escalating into a major stand-off between nuclear-armed India and Pakistan, with Indian Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee saying that "some elements in Pakistan are responsible" for the assault.

A number of Indian officials suggested the militants were from the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba -- notorious for a deadly assault on the Indian parliament in 2001 that almost pushed New Delhi and Islamabad to war.

But Pakistani Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani insisted his country had "nothing to do with the attacks" and Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi appealed to India not to get drawn into a "blame game" that could spark a dangerous confrontation.

The two countries have fought three wars since gaining independence from Britain in 1947.

Survivors have given terrifying accounts of the carnage in the hotels. Many said they hid in the dark for hours, barricaded in rooms or hiding under beds, inside wardrobes or bathrooms.

"I cannot believe what I have seen in the last 36 hours. I have seen dead bodies, blood everywhere and only heard gunshots," said Muneer Al Mahaj after he was rescued.

South African security guard Faisul Nagel was having dinner with colleagues at a restaurant in the Taj hotel when the assault began. They barricaded the restaurant and moved everyone into the kitchen.

"We basically put the lights off in the restaurant just to create an element of surprise. And we armed ourselves with kitchen knives and meat cleavers," he told Agence France-Presse.

They ended up helping around 120 people escape -- including a 90-year-old woman who had to be carried in her chair down 25 flights of stairs.

Witnesses also said the attackers had specifically rounded up people with US and British passports.

Both the United States and Britain expressed condolences and offered to help investigate the assault on Mumbai, which has been hit by terror attacks before. Nearly 190 people were killed in train bombings in 2006.

US President George W. Bush said he was "deeply saddened," and British Prime Minister Gordon Brown said he was sending police to help with the probe.

India's newspapers laid much of the blame at the door of the intelligence agencies, which they said had failed spectacularly in allowing a handful of gunmen to slip in by boat and wreak such havoc and devastation.

Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: jollyjacktar on November 29, 2008, 09:59:50
CBC reporter Terry Meleski was just on CBC Newsworld from outside the Taj.  He is reporting that the last two terrorists have just been killed bringing this horror to an end.  A surviving gunman has confessed to police that he is Pakastani, and all their training was conducted in Pakistan. 

The official toll is 195 dead, 300+ wounded.  21 are foreigners amongst the dead.  2 Canadians were killed, and 2 wounded.  They fear the death toll may double once all sweeps are complete.

The crap is going to hit the fan between India and Pakistan now I bet. 
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: GAP on November 29, 2008, 10:11:07
That all depends on whether the Pakistani Government actually knew about it or whether it was some offshoot of ISI that does not want good relations between the countries to develop....everything is as clear as mud...
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: Thucydides on November 29, 2008, 13:56:20
From the National Post:

A landmark attack in the annals of modern terrorism

John C. Thompson, National Post  Published: Friday, November 28, 2008

The Mumbai attacks represent a scenario that few Western police and security forces have dared envision. Fewer still have prepared for it.

The basic strategy: use a large number of attackers to overwhelm a target city's ability to respond, and then suddenly switch focus to high value targets and seize hostages.

The terrorists first diverted the attention of security forces through a range of incidents involving gunmen all over the city; then, as police attempted to react, they were themselves ambushed. The death of the commander of the Mumbai Counter-Terror Team and two of his principal lieutenants was no accident. To heighten the confusion, at least one group of gunmen ranged around the city in either a stolen or counterfeit police van.

The attack on a Mumbai hospital was also a disturbing detail. Terrorists love to create mass-casualty events -- but to attack a hospital? Jihadist chat rooms have often entertained the idea of a hospital attack, but we've never seen it used yet. This tactic will probably become a new standard practice for terrorists.

Authorities in the United States have long been anxious about al-Qaeda discussions focused on acquiring surplus emergency vehicles and using them for attacks on hospitals -- a scenario that came up in their Internet chats in 2003-04, and which prompted some attempts to buy old ambulances in several U. S. cities

Another nightmare situation involves a further refinement to the strategy behind the 2004 seizure of a school in Beslan, North Ossetia-Alania, and the 2002 attack on a Moscow theatre, both by Chechen terrorists. In these two notorious attacks, a large force of gunmen seized large groups of hostages (including many children) in public buildings.

The Chechens' intentions were not to negotiate for some advantage, but to prepare a murderous deathtrap for any rescue force, while rigging explosives to guarantee the deaths of all hostages. A premature assault in Beslan (in which hundreds of anxious parents joined) saved many hostages, while the Bolshoi Theatre incident was addressed by the over-use of a disabling chemical agent -- which served to subdue the terrorists, but also killed many of the hostages.

Hotels, office towers and apartment buildings represent large concentrations of people with few access points. They have all been favourite targets for truck bombs for many years, but some counter-terror officers have often wondered how long it would be before some group of gunmen tried to control these buildings rather than destroy them. This is the future face of terrorism.

Ask any infantryman or SWAT-trooper about how much they would like to hunt through a high rise for terrorists who are holding hostages: not much. Buildings soak up manpower (and munitions); and every confrontation tends to be at point-blank ranges. Clearing and securing such sites cannot be quick, easy or risk-free; and the terrorists have the time to do what they want with their captives.

When "red-teaming" potential attacks inside Western Europe and North America, counter-terror officials have often refused to even contemplate attacks like this. Mumbai-type attacks are seen as too complicated to war-game in training exercises. Moreover, the idea of a hostage situation with a gang of gunmen in a high-rise has been seen as too "Hollywood" ( Die Hard, to be more specific) to be tackled seriously.

This week's Mumbai attacks should change this thinking. Our police and emergency responders have new standards that they will have to learn to meet -- or else the same kind of tragedy could unfold here.

-John C. Thompson is director of the Mackenzie Institute, a Canadian think-tank concerned with organized violence and political instability.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: Flanker on November 29, 2008, 14:24:38
The attackers had specifically targeted Britons and Americans inside the hotels, witnesses said.

Police officials put the death toll at around 155 people, with 327 others wounded. TV channels described the attacks as "India's 9/11."

The 21 foreigners killed included the Israelis, two Americans, two French nationals, two Australians, a German, a Japanese, a Canadian, a British Cypriot, an Italian and a Singaporean.

Looks like these terrorists are not good shooters at all or ... someone tries to mislead public opinion. :-\
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: tomahawk6 on November 29, 2008, 14:37:43
We know that 6 Americans were killed in the attack.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: S.M.A. on November 29, 2008, 14:58:19

National Security Guard members rest outside Taj Mahal Hotel after an operation in Mumbai November 29, 2008.
REUTERS/Jayanta Shaw (INDIA)


An Indian commando carries boxes of unused ammunition from the Taj Mahal hotel in Mumbai on November 29, 2008. Commandos Saturday killed the last remaining gunmen in Mumbai's Taj hotel to end a devastating attack by Islamic militants on India's financial capital that left 195 dead, including 26 foreigners.
(AFP/Indranil Mukherjee)


Indian commandos return after the completion of their operation inside the Taj Mahal hotel in Mumbai, India, Saturday, Nov. 29, 2008.
(AP Photo/Gurinder Osan)


An Indian soldier (left) congratulates a commando after their successful operation at the Taj Mahal hotel in Mumbai.
(AFP/Indranil Mukherjee)


Indian commandos show the thumbs-up sign after the completion of their operation inside Taj Mahal hotel, background, in Mumbai, India, Saturday, Nov. 29, 2008.
(AP Photo/Gurinder Osan)


National Security Guard members discuss outside Taj Hotel after an operation in Mumbai November 29, 2008.
REUTERS/Jayanta Shaw (INDIA)


National Security Guard commandoes carry the coffin of their colleague Gajendra Singh, who died in the encounter with gunmen at Mumbai's Nariman House in New Delhi, India, Saturday, Nov. 29, 2008.
(AP Photo/ Mustafa Quraishi)


National Security Guard chief Jyoti Krishan Dutt, speaks to the media in Mumbai, India, Saturday, Nov.29, 2008.
(AP Photo/Altaf Qadri)

His uniform is placed on his body as Hemant Karkare, the chief of Mumbai's Anti-Terrorist Squad is taken for cremation in Mumbai, India, Saturday, Nov. 29, 2008.
(AP Photo/Saurabh Das)

Rest in Peace, Major/Police Chief Hemant Karkare.

Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: tomahawk6 on November 29, 2008, 19:23:19
Analysis of an intel failure.

In mid-September this year, the CIA station chief in Delhi sought an urgent meeting with his counterpart in R&AW to pass on some critical inputs. This was part of an understanding that Indian and American intelligence had institutionalised in the aftermath of 9/11. From its assets in Pakistan and Afghanistan, American intelligence had come to learn that the Lashkar-e-Toiba was planning to launch a major terrorist attack in Mumbai, which would be carried out from the sea.

This input was in conjunction with other inputs that Indian intelligence had received from various other sources. For instance, Riyasuddin, the son of Maulana Nasiruddin, who was under arrest for his alleged involvement in the assassination of the then Gujarat home minister Naren Pandya, had stated in his statements to the police that a sea-borne attack was being planned by certain terrorist groups abroad for an attack on Mumbai.

Similarly other vague inputs had also come in from Uttar Pradesh as well as other sources. But by September 24, Indian intelligence picked up several specific inputs. These were:
An LeT module was being trained in a camp around Karachi for launching attacks from the sea for at least three months

Yusuf Muzammil, the chief of operations of the LeT was in contact with an LeT operative stationed in Bangladesh (identified as "Yayah") who was being asked to procure international SIM cards for an operation that had been planned

Information was also available that the team had been trained by Zakir-ur-Rehman Lakhvi, also known as "Chacha" an ageing ideologue who conducted most of the LeT's training modules.
By the middle of November, as Indian intelligence continued to check out further inputs, the pieces of an intricate jigsaw puzzle began to fall into place. Sources say they learnt that the attack would come from the sea and that the Taj Hotel would be a major target. However, it was not known whether this attack would be carried out by planting bombs in the hotel or by terrorists carrying small arms. Indian intelligence assessments were tilting towards bombs being planted and security at the hotel was beefed up accordingly to prevent terrorists from planting bombs inside the premises.

On November 18, R&AW passed on a specific advisory to the Coast Guard, which serves as the Lead intelligence Agency for the coastal area. The advisory asked the coast guard to intensify patrolling and look out for a suspicious vessel, probably of Pakistani origin, which had sailed off from Karachi. While the coast guard began to patrol the area with renewed intensity, the terrorists had an entirely different plan.

According to details available with Indian intelligence and the information given by the terrorist who was picked up by the Mumbai police in an encounter near Chowpatty, the terrorists hijacked an Indian fishing boat, the Kuber, somewhere near Pakistani waters. They beheaded the majority of the boat's crew of six and only allowed one crew-member, Amarsinh Solanki, to live so that he could help them with navigating the boat to Mumbai. The coast guard found a Global Positioning System abandoned on the fishing trawler that was drifting nearly four nautical miles off the coast of Mumbai early on Thursday, November 27 morning, several hours after the terrorist attack began.

While the coast guard was looking for a Pakistani or unidentified vessel, the Kuber (registration number 2303) blended in with the thousands of registered Indian fishing vessels out at sea.

This enabled the terrorists to avoid detection and slip into Badhwar park in Cuffe Parade in Mumbai before they began their operations. Most of them got into waiting boats that had been arranged by Karachi-based underworld don Dawood Ibrahim's diesel smuggling network in Mumbai. Arms, ammunition and plastic explosives were quickly transferred to the waiting boats that took the terrorists to the Gateway of India which was the pre-arranged launching pad for the terrorist attack.

What has surprised investigators piecing together the details of the attack is that the GPS recovered from the abandoned trawler, Kuber, had two maps fed into it to aid navigation. One was a route from Karachi that was plotted quite close to the Indian coast, while a return route had also been mapped into the GPS from the Mumbai coast back to Karachi. "We think this was done to give the terrorists some semblance of hope that they would go back home after a successful raid," a top security official told Outlook. The fact that these two maps were fed into the GPS has confirmed that there was some help from people with a naval or army background, and had extensive knowledge of navigation at sea.

What security officials have also confirmed is the fact that most of the terrorists were from Punjab in Pakistan. The arrested terrorist, Azmal Amir Qasab, a resident of Chippalpura Taluka in Ukkad Zilla, Punjab, Pakistan has told his interrogators that the terrorists had trained for over two months, much of it on the Karachi coast for the naval leg. They were trained in basic rudiments of conducting naval commando raids, given extensive biefings on the layout of South Mumbai with adequate footage for familiarity and CDs of alleged "atrocities" carried out against Muslims in India. Qasab has also given details of how two of their operatives checked into the Taj Hotel last Saturday, November 22, with a lot of equipment. The duo received several visitors with huge bags, apparently carrying RDX for the two IEDs which were defused by the Mumbai police on the night of the first attack.

Meanwhile, investigators are poring through the call data details downloaded from the satellite phone also recovered from the abandoned trawler. Many of the call details have revealed numbers that have been traced back to the LeT's chief of operations, Muzamil, as well as to Lakhvi. Interestingly, the international SIM cards recovered from the bodies of the killed terrorists correspond to the intelligence picked up earlier, when Muzamil had asked his Bangladesh operative Yayah, to procure them. He apparently also procured the fake Mauritian identity card recovered by the marine commandos.

Top security sources have also told Outlook that the intercepts made by the intelligence agencies while the NSG commando assault was underway clearly indicates that the terrorists were speaking to their handlers in Pakistan. Among the instructions passed on to them during the nearly 62-hour crisis were to throw grenades indiscriminately if they were in danger of being overpowered and to start fake negotiations to prolong the crisis.In fact, two such attempts at negotiations were made at Nariman Bhawan and the Oberoi-Trident hotel to stave off an impending assault, even though the terrorists had already killed the hostages.

In the days to come investigators will have to continue putting the pieces of the puzzle together to create a more comprehensive picture of the attack. Hidden among them will be key lessons on how to prevent similar attacks in the future.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: tomahawk6 on November 29, 2008, 20:58:05
Alot of pic's at the link - some graphic.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: Thucydides on November 29, 2008, 23:23:38
Further analysis:

It’s Not the Cold War
Updating strategy to fight the ideology.

By Mark Steyn

When terrorists attack, media analysts go into Sherlock Holmes mode, metaphorically prowling the crime scene for footprints, as if the way to solve the mystery is to add up all the clues. The Bombay gunmen seized British and American tourists. Therefore, it must be an attack on Westerners!

Not so, said Newsweek’s Fareed Zakaria. If they’d wanted to do that, they’d have hit the Hilton or the Marriott or some other target-rich chain hotel. The Taj and the Oberoi are both Indian owned, and popular watering holes with wealthy Indians.

Okay, how about this group that’s claimed credit for the attack? The Deccan Mujahideen. As a thousand TV anchors asked on Wednesday night, “What do we know about them?”

Er, well, nothing. Because they didn’t exist until they issued the press release. “Deccan” is the name of the vast plateau that covers most of the triangular peninsula that forms the lower half of the Indian sub-continent. It comes from the Prakrit word “dakkhin, which means “south.” Which means nothing at all. “Deccan Mujahideen” is like calling yourself the “Continental Shelf Liberation Front.”

Okay. So does that mean this operation was linked to al-Qaeda? Well, no. Not if by “linked to” you mean a wholly owned subsidiary coordinating its activities with the corporate head office.

It’s not an either/or scenario, it’s all of the above. Yes, the terrorists targeted locally owned hotels. But they singled out Britons and Americans as hostages. Yes, they attacked prestige city landmarks like the Victoria Terminus, one of the most splendid and historic railway stations in the world. But they also attacked an obscure Jewish community center. The Islamic imperialist project is a totalitarian ideology: It is at war with Hindus, Jews, Americans, Britons, everything that is other.

In the ten months before this week’s atrocity, Muslim terrorists killed over 200 people in India and no-one paid much attention. Just business as usual, alas. In Bombay, the perpetrators were cannier. They launched a multiple indiscriminate assault on soft targets, and then in the confusion began singling out A-list prey: Not just wealthy Western tourists, but local orthodox Jews, and municipal law enforcement. They drew prominent officials to selected sites, and then gunned down the head of the antiterrorism squad and two of his most senior lieutenants. They attacked a hospital, the place you’re supposed to take the victims to, thereby destabilizing the city’s emergency-response system.

And, aside from dozens of corpses, they were rewarded with instant, tangible, economic damage to India: the Bombay Stock Exchange was still closed on Friday, and the England cricket team canceled their tour (a shameful act).

What’s relevant about the Mumbai model is that it would work in just about any second-tier city in any democratic state: Seize multiple soft targets and overwhelm the municipal infrastructure to the point where any emergency plan will simply be swamped by the sheer scale of events. Try it in, say, Mayor Nagin’s New Orleans. All you need is the manpower. Given the numbers of gunmen, clearly there was a significant local component. On the other hand, whether or not Pakistan’s deeply sinister ISI had their fingerprints all over it, it would seem unlikely that there was no external involvement. After all, if you look at every jihad front from the London Tube bombings to the Iraqi insurgency, you’ll find local lads and wily outsiders: That’s pretty much a given.

But we’re in danger of missing the forest for the trees. The forest is the ideology. It’s the ideology that determines whether you can find enough young hotshot guys in the neighborhood willing to strap on a suicide belt or (rather more promising as a long-term career) at least grab an AK and shoot up a hotel lobby. Or, if active terrorists are a bit thin on the ground, whether you can count at least on some degree of broader support on the ground. You’re sitting in some distant foreign capital but you’re minded to pull off a Bombay-style operation in, say, Amsterdam or Manchester or Toronto. Where would you start? Easy. You know the radical mosques, and the other ideological-front organizations. You’ve already made landfall.

It’s missing the point to get into debates about whether this is the “Deccan Mujahideen” or the ISI or al-Qaeda or Lashkar-e-Taiba. That’s a reductive argument. It could be all or none of them. The ideology has been so successfully seeded around the world that nobody needs a memo from corporate HQ to act: There are so many of these subgroups and individuals that they intersect across the planet in a million different ways. It’s not the Cold War, with a small network of deep sleepers being directly controlled by Moscow. There are no membership cards, only an ideology. That’s what has radicalized hitherto moderate Muslim communities from Indonesia to the Central Asian stans to Yorkshire, and coopted what started out as more or less conventional nationalist struggles in the Caucasus and the Balkans into mere tentacles of the global jihad.

Many of us, including the incoming Obama administration, look at this as a law-enforcement matter. Bombay is a crime scene, so let’s surround the perimeter with yellow police tape, send in the forensics squad, and then wait for the DA to file charges. There was a photograph that appeared in many of the British papers, taken by a Reuters man and captioned by the news agency as follows: “A suspected gunman walks outside the premises of the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus or Victoria Terminus railway station.” The photo of the “suspected gunman” showed a man holding a gun. We don’t know much about him — he might be Muslim or Episcopalian, he might be an impoverished uneducated victim of western colonialist economic oppression or a former vice-president of Lehman Bros embarking on an exciting midlife career change — but one thing we ought to be able to say for certain is that a man pointing a gun is not a “suspected gunman” but a gunman. “This kind of silly political correctness infects reporters and news services world-wide,” wrote John Hinderaker of Powerline. “They think they’re being scrupulous — the man hasn’t been convicted of being a gunman yet! — when in fact they’re just being foolish. But the irrational conviction that nothing can be known unless it has been determined by a court and jury isn’t just silly, it’s dangerous.”

Just so. This isn’t law enforcement but an ideological assault — and we’re fighting the symptoms not the cause. Islamic imperialists want an Islamic society, not just in Palestine and Kashmir but in the Netherlands and Britain, too. Their chances of getting it will be determined by the ideology’s advance among the general Muslim population, and the general Muslim population’s demographic advance among everybody else.

So Bush is history, and we have a new president who promises to heal the planet, and yet the jihadists don’t seem to have got the Obama message that there are no enemies, just friends we haven’t yet held talks without preconditions with. This isn’t about repudiating the Bush years, or withdrawing from Iraq, or even liquidating Israel. It’s bigger than that. And if you don’t have a strategy for beating back the ideology, you’ll lose.

Whoops, my apologies. I mean “suspected ideology.”

© 2008 Mark Steyn
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: ENGINEERS WIFE on November 30, 2008, 00:42:24
India terrorist attack blamed on 10 armed men
60-hour rampage killed at least 195; 'we will recover,' says one resident
Title: Re: Indian Navy showcases rising might
Post by: STONEY on December 01, 2008, 15:55:56
Wonder why it took Indian Police, Army @ Commandoes 4 days to overcome 10 terriorists  who caused 175 deaths + hundreds wounded.   
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: tomahawk6 on December 01, 2008, 21:22:09
Terrorist beaten by angry police and mob.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: MediPea on December 01, 2008, 22:40:24
My uncle is there working right now. He's due to come home in a week or so. Thankfully he's been safe so far throughout this ordeal. Thoughts to the families of the wounded/killed.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: daftandbarmy on December 02, 2008, 01:50:27
More 'we told you so':

US intelligence warned India of Mumbai attack in mid-October – Report

December 1, 2008, 11:22 PM (GMT+02:00)

DEBKAfile's intelligence sources report that the Indian spy agency RAW (the Research and Analysis Wing) caught wind of a terrorist threat for Mumbai in late August, three months before the event. More information was collected by RAW during September and October about the shape of the attack and its targets and passed to the American NSA.
The American ABC TV reported on Dec. 1 that Indian intelligence also intercepted a satellite phone call to a number in Pakistan known to be used by a leader of the Kashmiri Lashkar e-Taiba, which is accused of staging the Mumbai attack. This group is known for its ties to al Qaeda and Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence. This enabled the American NSA to monitor the calls terrorists made by Thuraya mobile communications system satellite phones. That is how they were able to warn their Indian counterparts in mid-October of a potential attack "from the sea against hotels and business centers in Mumbai," as ABC reported. The Taj Palace Hotel was mentioned.
DEBKAfile's sources add that the Thuraya 3 satellite system serves a population of 2.3 billion in the Middle East and Asia. Owned by Abu Dhabi, many of its clients are Muslim.
The warning was relayed by US government agencies to the Manmohan Singh government which passed it on to political officials in Mumbai, India's financial capital.
There it stopped. The warning never reached the city's security or marine authorities which might have intercepted the terrorists' boats as they landed. Indian's special counter-terror units were taken completely by surprise when the Islamists struck the city Wednesday, Nov. 26.
These revelations raise two troubling questions: Why did the Indian government fail to act to pre-empt the terrorist attack? And why did the Bush administration, when it was clear that the Indians were doing nothing, not issue a public warning about a terrorist attack in the making as it has done in former cases?
At all events, the disclosure about the communications between US and Indian intelligence refutes the comment from US Secretary of state Condoleezza Rice in London that Washington had no information linking the Mumbai attack to Pakistan.
Title: India's Muslim clerics refuse to bury 'demon' gunmen
Post by: twistedcables on December 02, 2008, 15:17:03
This is what the turning of the tide sounds like...

Krittivas Mukherjee
Reuters News Agency

MUMBAI – Mumbai's top Muslim clerics vowed on Tuesday to block the burial of nine Islamist militants who killed 183 people in a three-day rampage last week, saying their acts were an affront to Islam.

"Such demons – they will not find an inch of land in any Muslim cemetery," Maulana Sayed Moinuddin Ahsraf, secretary of the All-India Sunni Jamiat-ulema, told Reuters.

He spoke after a meeting of Muslim clerics and leaders from the Indian state of Maharashtra, of which Mumbai is the capital.

In past attacks by Islamists in India, attackers killed have been buried. The ordinary practice is for Muslim burials to be conducted quickly, within a few hours of death.

"Just because you call yourself Musa, Azim or Rehman you don't become a Muslim. These people who carried out such attacks cannot be," said Syed Noori, another Muslim leader who attended Tuesday's meeting.

Ten Islamist militants armed with AK-47s and grenades let loose on two of Mumbai's best-known luxury hotels and other landmarks across the city of 18 million during a 60-hour frenzy that ended when commandos killed the ninth gunmen.

A 10th was arrested after a mob set upon him.

India's minority Muslims, forming about 13 per cent of the 1.1 billion population, have felt under siege every time Islamist militants launched an attack in the country.

"We have even written to the government conveying our decision. Our Muslim brothers across the country are unanimous about it," he told Reuters.

Asked what could be done with the bodies Noori said: "That's the government's headache."
Title: Re: India's Muslim clerics refuse to bury 'demon' gunmen
Post by: ModlrMike on December 02, 2008, 16:29:06
Good for them!
Title: Re: India's Muslim clerics refuse to bury 'demon' gunmen
Post by: Haggis on December 02, 2008, 18:08:19
Positive proof that extremism doesn't personify Islam.
Title: Re: India's Muslim clerics refuse to bury 'demon' gunmen
Post by: jollyjacktar on December 02, 2008, 18:44:57
Hopefully this indeed is the tipping point for the supposed silent majority and we might see further demonising of these assrats.

It is indeed a sin against Islam, so my wife tells me.  It can be difficult at times for me to remember and not paint them all with the same brush. 
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: leroi on December 02, 2008, 22:25:11
A Solemn Israel Buries Dead From Mumbai Attack  

December 2, 2008  New York Times

 JERUSALEM — A somber Israel on Tuesday buried six victims of last week’s terrorist attack on a Jewish outreach center in Mumbai, India.

Two of the victims, Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg, 29, and his wife, Rivka, 28, were serving as emissaries in India for the Hasidic Chabad-Lubavitch movement when they were killed. They were buried side by side after dark in the Chabad portion of the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem.

The rabbi, who held dual Israeli and American citizenship, and his wife, an Israeli, had run the center in Mumbai for the past five years.

Israelis have been deeply moved by the story of the couple and their son Moshe, 2, who survived the attack on the center when his Indian nanny scooped him up and escaped from the building more than 12 hours into the bloody siege.

Moshe arrived in Israel on Monday night, along with his nanny, Sandra Samuel, and Mrs. Holtzberg’s father, on an Israeli Air Force flight that transported the six bodies.

Chabad spokesmen said the couple were buried near their eldest son, who died two years ago of Tay-Sachs, a genetic disease. A middle son is hospitalized in Israel with the same illness.

The memorial ceremony started hours earlier in Kfar Chabad, a village south of Tel Aviv where there is a replica of the red-brick building at 770 Eastern Parkway in the Crown Heights section of Brooklyn, the world headquarters of Chabad.

President Shimon Peres, Defense Minister Ehud Barak, the opposition leader, Benjamin Netanyahu, the chief rabbis of Israel and the Indian ambassador attended the service at Kfar Chabad.

“For several days now, the whole world has had to answer the question of a small child, Moshe, who is asking, ‘Where is my mother?’ ” Mr. Peres said in his eulogy. “The world must answer why a wonderful woman like Rivka was killed, why a holy man like Gavriel was killed and why Moshe is left an orphan. We will not rest and we will not relax until an answer is found.”

In his eulogy, Rabbi Moshe Kotlarsky, the chairman of Chabad’s education arm, said of the orphaned boy: “You will be the child of the entire nation of Israel. You are an emissary, and an emissary you shall remain.”

Mrs. Holtzberg’s father revealed in his speech that his daughter was pregnant at the time she was slain.

Among the other hostages buried on Tuesday in Israel was Aryeh Leibish Teitelbaum, 38, a kosher food supervisor and the father of eight. A member of an ultra-Orthodox sect that opposes Zionism, Mr. Teitelbaum, an American, rejected Israeli citizenship though he lived in Jerusalem. His family requested a funeral without state symbols.

Another of those buried, Norma Schwartzblatt-Rabinowitz, 50, from Mexico, had planned to immigrate to Israel via India this week.

Rabbi Motti Seligson, a spokesman for Chabad in Brooklyn, said that more than two dozen people from the Crown Heights community flew to Israel for the funeral of Rabbi Holtzberg and his wife. At the Lubavitcher Yeshiva in Brooklyn, more than 1,000 people gathered at 6 a.m. Tuesday to watch a live feed of the two-and-a-half-hour funeral, which was recorded and is available at the Web site

Liz Robbins contributed reporting from New York.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: on December 03, 2008, 08:14:46
Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29 (, of the Copyright Act.

Taliban say they'll help army fight India
Offer to Pakistan viewed as attempt to escalate tensions
Chris Brummitt, Associated Press, 3 Dec 08
Article link (

Taliban fighters battling Pakistani soldiers near the Afghan border volunteered yesterday to fight alongside the army if war breaks out with traditional foe India over the Mumbai attack.

Analysts say the offer is meant to fan the flames of anti-Hindu sentiment and draw support away from Islamabad's fight against al-Qaida and Taliban militants in tribal regions close to Afghanistan.

The government, which is appealing for calm, has not responded.

"That is what they would love, to see the attention of the Pakistan army shift from the tribal areas to the eastern border with India," said defense analyst Hasan Askari Rizvi.

The Taliban's offer came in a video recording by its deputy chief, Maulvi Faqir Mohammad, that was made available to reporters yesterday.

"If India launches a war on Pakistan, we will divide the fight into two parts. The air defense will be the responsibility of the military, and the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan will fight the war on ground," he said. "If it makes a mistake to attack Pakistan, Tehrik-e-Taliban will defend Pakistan and Islam."....

More on link
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: tomahawk6 on December 03, 2008, 21:28:09
These weapons were captured from the dead tango's.Pakistan Ordinance Factories manufactures these weapons under license from HK, and they are under the control of the Pakistani Ministry of Defense.Pretty strong link I would say.

Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: tamtam10 on December 04, 2008, 01:22:04
The terrorist attacks in Mumbai this past week were extremly tragic. What scares me even moreso, however, is that something like that could happen here in Canada or the United States, and Canada could be to blame for it just like Pakistan is being blamed by India. Canada is seen as a safe haven to terrorists, and is home to the most terrorist organizations in the world besides the United States. If a major attack happened in the US from terrorists who lived in Canada, we could be in big trouble. It's time Canada stiffens its immigration policy and does more to weed out the terrorists in our country.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on December 04, 2008, 04:41:14
These weapons were captured from the dead tango's.Pakistan Ordinance Factories manufactures these weapons under license from HK, and they are under the control of the Pakistani Ministry of Defense.Pretty strong link I would say.


TH6, are these MP5's POF made?? POF appear to have the latest plastic lowers. Go here for a squizz at POF navigate as required.


Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on December 04, 2008, 04:44:36
The terrorist attacks in Mumbai this past week were extremly tragic. What scares me even moreso, however, is that something like that could happen here in Canada or the United States, and Canada could be to blame for it just like Pakistan is being blamed by India. Canada is seen as a safe haven to terrorists, and is home to the most terrorist organizations in the world besides the United States. If a major attack happened in the US from terrorists who lived in Canada, we could be in big trouble. It's time Canada stiffens its immigration policy and does more to weed out the terrorists in our country.

We are only as strong as our weakest link.

Both Canada and Australia have stopped attacks before they've happened.

The threat is real. Right now as you read this many in our own countries are planning all sorts of nasty things. Lucky we have a busy network of agencies who right now are working to prevent such things from happening.

Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: tomahawk6 on December 04, 2008, 10:09:19
OW there is some confusion in the western media about those guns.They have been portrayed as terrorist weapons when in fact they may have been NSG or MARCOS weapons.Here is a wider shot I have found.  :-[

Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: old medic on December 04, 2008, 19:10:24
India unsettled by warning of an attack by air,0,7976024.story
Reporting from Islamabad, Pakistan, and New Delhi -- India remains on edge amid reports of a threat of an attack by air, adding to people's fears of vulnerability after last week's brazen rampage by gunmen who landed on Mumbai's famed shoreline by boat.

The new threat was contained in an e-mailed warning that referred to the coming anniversary Saturday of one of the most inflammatory events in India's recent history: the 1992 destruction by Hindu mobs of a centuries-old mosque in the north Indian town of Ayodha. That incident has been a flashpoint of religious tension throughout South Asia.

 Survivors of last week's attack in Mumbai, which left more than 170 people dead, have been quoted as saying that at least one of the gunmen cited revenge for what happened in Ayodha as a motive behind their coordinated assault on luxury hotels and other busy spots in India's biggest metropolis.

Early today, Indian commandos combed New Delhi's international airport after reports that shots had been fired there. The cause of the scare remained unclear, but an airport official reached by telephone said that no one had been killed, despite an initial report by the British Broadcasting Corp. that Indian security forces had shot six gunmen to death.

The airport, which serves many international flights in the early morning hours, was operating normally by 3 a.m, Reuters reported.

Although the electronic threat of a possible airborne attack focused on the capital, New Delhi, and the southern cities of Bangalore and Chennai, airports throughout the country went on high alert. Authorities added extra layers of security, including beefed-up patrols of armed guards and sniffer dogs and more thorough inspections of passengers and their belongings.

"We are prepared as usual," Fali Homi Major, chief of the Indian Air Force, told reporters.

That statement, however, was not likely to reassure many Indians, who have reacted with incredulity and growing anger to news that their government failed to act on repeated intelligence, including from the United States, warning of a possible terrorist attack on Mumbai by sea. Tens of thousands of Indians have taken to the streets in protest, accusing the government of not protecting its citizens.

Wednesday night, Vilasrao Deshmukh, the chief minister of Maharashtra state, of which Mumbai is the capital, became the latest political casualty of the attacks when the country's ruling Congress Party accepted his resignation from office.

Most of the investigation into the attacks has focused on the lone captured gunman, who was seized at the bustling railway station where he and an accomplice allegedly fired indiscriminately into the crowds.

Investigators have said he has detailed the involvement of a Pakistani militant group, Lashkar-e-Taiba, and its training of the assailants at camps in Pakistan. Investigators also allege that Zaki-ur Rehman Lakhvi, a known senior commander of Lashkar-e-Taiba, helped mastermind the plot. Indian authorities have also named another Lashkar leader, Yusuf Muzammil. Pakistan has said nothing about the accusations against either man, other than indicating it will not accede to India's demand to hand them over.

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, in a visit Thursday to Islamabad, said Pakistan's government "understands its responsibilities" in responding to terrorism in the wake of the Mumbai attacks.

Rice said the sophisticated nature of the 60-hour assault, which targeted luxury hotels and other Mumbai landmarks, underscored the need for a swift and thorough investigation.

"That means there is urgency to getting to the bottom of it," she said. "There is urgency to bringing the perpetrators to justice, and there is urgency to using the information to disrupt and prevent further attacks."

Rice, who visited India a day earlier, was publicly supportive of Pakistan's fledgling civilian government and its actions in response to the attacks, telling a news conference she was "quite satisfied" with her talks with senior government and military officials.

But a senior Pakistani official familiar with the discussions said the tone was tougher in private, with Rice stressing U.S. expectations that Pakistan aggressively pursue evidence against militant groups on its own. A similar message was delivered a day earlier by the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Navy Adm. Mike Mullen.

President Asif Ali Zardari reiterated a willingness to cooperate, his office said, pledging "strong action" against any Pakistani elements found to have been involved in the attack. But Pakistani authorities have not acknowledged a link between the attacks and any group based on Pakistani soil, saying it was up to India to provide proof.

Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: old medic on December 04, 2008, 19:26:23
In Pakistan, Rice calls for "urgent" pursuit of terrorists
 By Kim Barker |  Chicago Tribune correspondent
    10:29 AM CST, December 4, 2008,0,5513287.story

RAWALPINDI, Pakistan - As Indian authorities named two senior Pakistani militants they say planned last week's 60-hour siege in Mumbai, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Thursday that action was needed "urgently and transparently" to track down the perpetrators.

Rice arrived in Pakistan Thursday, the day after visiting India, to try to calm tensions between the nuclear-armed neighbors after the attacks that killed 171 people in Mumbai. After meeting with the country's prime minister and president, she praised Pakistan's leaders for being committed to the war on terror but also said they needed to track down terrorists who plan attacks from Pakistani soil.

"This was a sophisticated attack, a level of sophistication that we haven't seen here on the sub-continent before," Rice said. "That means that there is urgency to getting to the bottom of it. There is urgency to bringing the perpetrators to justice. And there is an urgency to using the information to disrupt and prevent further attacks."

Meanwhile, several news organizations quoted unidentified government officials in Mumbai as naming two Pakistanis with the banned Lashkar-e-Taiba militant group as responsible for planning the attacks.

The Associated Press said Indian officials pointed to Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi and Yusuf Muzammil, two senior leaders of Lashkar-e-Taiba, as the masterminds, and said both men lived in Pakistan. The one surviving militant allegedly told Mumbai police he trained with Lashkar-e-Taiba in Pakistan.

Pakistan has demanded that India turn over evidence linking any Pakistani to the attacks and so far has refused to turn over 20 militants wanted by India. But on Thursday, Rice urged Pakistan to act.

"There is a lot of information out there, a lot," Rice said. "And so this isn't an issue of sharing evidence."

With this crisis, Rice and other U.S. diplomats are riding a fine line between Pakistan and India, historic enemies that have fought three wars since independence in 1947 but both considered key allies of the U.S. Pakistan's help is seen as crucial to fighting Taliban and al-Qaeda militants along the country's border with Afghanistan. And India, the world's largest democracy, is a major economic partner and seen as a counterweight to Chinese and extremist influence in the region.

In a nod toward Pakistan, Rice said Thursday that the country had been a victim of terrorism. In response to a question about possible India military intervention in Pakistan, Rice said cooperation was a more effective response.

"Let me be very clear. I have heard nothing but reasonable discussion and responsible discussion in both India and Pakistan about the problems here, about the attacks in Mumbai," Rice said.

"Obviously, the Indian government is concerned and determined to find the perpetrators and bring them to justice, determined to try to prevent the next attack. I found a Pakistani leadership that understands the importance of doing that, particularly in rooting out terrorists and rounding up whoever perpetrated this attack."

Rice's visit to India was planned and announced for days; her visit to Pakistan was secretive, likely because of security fears. She arrived at 9:08 a.m., met Pakistani officials, held a nine-minute press conference and left before 2 p.m.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: old medic on December 06, 2008, 05:48:21
Top Indian official admits 'lapses' in attacks
The Associated Press

MUMBAI, India -- India's top law enforcement official admitted Friday there were government "lapses" in last week's terrorist attacks on Mumbai, amid a public uproar over security and intelligence failures in the deadly siege.

"There have been lapses. I would be less than truthful if I said there had been no lapses," new Home Minister Palaniappan Chidambaram told reporters, saying he was seeking to bolster the country's security.

The assault on India's financial capital left 171 dead and 239 wounded. Chidambaram, only days in the post after the previous minister was ousted after the attacks, made the acknowledgment as new details surfaced that a Pakistani militant group had used an Indian operative as far back as 2007 to scout targets in the Mumbai plot.

Indian officials have accused Pakistani-based extremists in the Nov. 26-29 attacks, an assertion echoed by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Friday.

"The territory of a neighbouring country has been used for perpetrating this crime," Singh said after meeting with visiting Russian President Dmitry Medvedev. "We expect the international community to wake up and recognize that terror anywhere and everywhere constitutes a threat to world peace and prosperity."

The surviving gunman, Ajmal Amir Kasab, 21, told interrogators he had been sent by the banned Pakistani militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba and identified two of the plot's masterminds, according to two Indian government officials familiar with the inquiry.

Soon after it was banned in 2002 amid U.S pressure, Lashkar-e-Taiba changed its name to Jamaat-ud-Dawa, according to the U.S. State Department. The U.S. lists both groups as terrorist organizations.

Hafiz Mohammed Saeed, who heads Jamaat-ud-Dawa, though U.S. authorities in May described him as the overall leader of Lashkar-e-Taiba, denied in an interview that there was a Pakistani hand behind the attacks, and called on Indian authorities to act like "a responsible country." Saeed is considered the founder of both groups.

"The Indian leadership is using Pakistan as a punching bag to cover its failures at home," Saeed told the Outlook magazine in an interview released Friday. "Instead of blaming Pakistan, India should have acted as a responsible country, shown patience and focused on investigating the attacks to find out the real culprits."

"I can say with authority," he continued, "that the Lashkar does not believe in killing civilians."

The interview was conducted in Lahore on Wednesday with the magazine's foreign editor, Aijaz Ashraf.

Kasab told police that a senior Lashkar leader, Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi, the group's operations chief, recruited him for the attack, and the assailants called another senior leader, Yusuf Muzammil, on a satellite phone before the attacks.

The information sent investigators back to another reputed Lashkar operative, Faheem Ansari.

Ansari, an Indian national, was arrested in February in north India carrying hand-drawn sketches of hotels, the train terminal and other sites that were later attacked in Mumbai, Amitabh Yash, director of the Special Task Force of the Uttar Pradesh police, said Thursday.

During his interrogation, Ansari also named Muzammil as his handler in Pakistan, adding that he trained in a Lashkar camp in Muzaffarabad -- the same area where Kasab said he was trained, a senior police officer involved in the investigation said.

In Pakistan, the Interior Ministry chief told reporters he had no immediate information on Lakhvi or Muzammil.

According to the U.S., Lakhvi has directed Lashkar operations in Chechnya, Bosnia and Southeast Asia, training members to carry out suicide bombings and attack populated areas. In 2004, he allegedly sent operatives and funds to attack U.S. forces in Iraq.
Title: Indian police arrest undercover operative?
Post by: twistedcables on December 06, 2008, 19:43:30

By Aijaz Hussain, The Associated Press

SRINAGAR, India - One of the two Indian men arrested for illegally buying mobile phone cards used by the gunmen in the Mumbai attacks was a counterinsurgency police officer who may have been on an undercover mission, security officials said Saturday in demanding his release.

The arrests, announced in the eastern city of Calcutta, were the first since the bloody siege ended.

But what was touted as a rare success for India's beleaguered law enforcement agencies, quickly turned sour as police in two Indian regions squared off against one another.

Senior police officers in Indian Kashmir, which has been at the heart of tensions between India and Pakistan, demanded the release of the officer, Mukhtar Ahmed, saying he was one of their own and had been involved in infiltrating Kashmiri militant groups.

Indian authorities believe the banned Pakistani-based militant group, Lashkar-e-Taiba, which has links to Kashmir, trained the gunmen and plotted the attacks that left 171 people dead after a three-day rampage through Mumbai that began Nov. 26.

The implications of Ahmed's involvement - that Indian agents may have been in touch with the militants and perhaps supplied the SIM cards used in the attacks - added to the growing list of questions over India's ill-trained security forces, which are widely blamed for not thwarting the attacks.

Earlier Saturday, Calcutta police announced the arrests of Ahmed and Tauseef Rahman, who allegedly bought SIM cards by using fake documents, including identification cards of dead people. The cards allow users to switch their cellular service to phones other than their own.

Rahman, of West Bengal state, later sold them to Ahmed, said Rajeev Kumar a senior Calcutta police officer.

Both men were arrested Friday and charged with fraud and criminal conspiracy, Kumar said, adding that police were still investigating how the 10 gunmen obtained the SIM cards.

But the announcement had police in Srinagar, the main city in Indian-controlled Kashmir, fuming.

"We have told Calcutta police that Ahmed is our man and it's now up to them how to facilitate his release," said one senior officer, speaking on condition of anonymity. Other police officials in Kashmir supported his account.

The officer said Ahmed was a Special Police Officer, part of a semiofficial counterinsurgency network whose members are usually drawn from former militants. The force is run on a special funding from the federal Ministry of Home Affairs.

"Sometimes we use our men engaged in counterinsurgency ops to provide SIM cards to the (militant) outfits so that we track their plans down," said the officer.

Police said Ahmed was recruited to the force after his brother was killed five years ago, allegedly by Lashkar-e-Taiba militants for being a police informer.

About a dozen Islamic militant groups have been fighting in Kashmir since 1989, seeking independence from mainly Hindu India or a union with Muslim-majority Pakistan.

India and Pakistan have fought two of their three wars over the Himalayan region, which is divided between them and claimed by both in its entirety.

The bungling and miscommunications among India's many security services comes as police said they were re-examining another suspected Lashkar militant who was arrested nine months before the attacks carrying hand-drawn sketches of Mumbai hotels, the train terminal and other targeted sites.

Rakesh Maria, a senior Mumbai police officer, said the man, Faheem Ansari, was being transported to Mumbai from northern India where he has been in custody for further questioning, hoping he could shed more light on the attacks.

Maria said there was a definite connection between Ansari and the Mumbai attacks. "Ansari was trained by Lashkar and sent to do reconnaissance," he said.

And a day after India's top law enforcement official apologized for security "lapses" that allowed the gunmen to rampage through Mumbai, there were new embarrassments - this time with holes in the prime minister's security.

Police preparing for a visit of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh near Calcutta hired high school children for the equivalent of $2.50 each to sit in trees for the day and look out for suspicious people.

Local police chief L.N. Meena defended using children in the prime minister's security detail, saying there were too many trees in the area and not enough policemen.

"The area is full of trees, so to check them to see if there were any anti-social elements or anyone making mischief, we employed the youths," he said.

Television footage showed dozens of the youngsters perched in trees, with yellow paper badges that read "security pass" pinned on their chests.

Meanwhile police continued the interrogation of the lone surviving gunman from the Mumbai attacks, Mohammed Ajmal Kasab, 21, who has disclosed that the gunmen had detailed pictures of the locations, Maria said.

"They were pretty elaborate photographs," he said, adding that they had also used maps from Google to study the targets.

Kasab has told interrogators he had been sent by Lashkar and identified two of the plot's masterminds as being involved, two Indian government officials familiar with the inquiry said. Police had earlier identified the prisoner as Ajmal Amir Kasab.

Lashkar changed its name to Jamaat-ud-Dawa after it was banned in 2002 amid U.S. pressure, according to the U.S. State Department. The U.S. lists both groups as terrorist organizations.

Kasab told police that a senior Lashkar leader, Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi, the group's operations chief, recruited him for the attack, and that the assailants called another senior leader, Yusuf Muzammil, on a satellite phone before the attacks.

In Pakistan, the Interior Ministry chief told reporters he had no immediate information on Lakhvi or Muzammil.

According to the U.S., Lakhvi has directed Lashkar operations in Chechnya, Bosnia and Southeast Asia, training members to carry out suicide bombings and attack populated areas. In 2004, he allegedly sent operatives and funds to attack U.S. forces in Iraq.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: Thucydides on December 16, 2008, 11:28:10
There is obviously a lot more to the story of who planned and supported this operation:

Risk Factors
by George Packer December 15, 2008

A few days after well-armed men mowed down scores of helpless people in Mumbai, an American commission released a report on terrorism and weapons of mass destruction. “World at Risk” is one of those conscientious, bipartisan efforts, its importance signalled by publication as a trade paperback, whose sober findings and pragmatic recommendations momentarily give you the sense that every problem—even one as alarming as the likelihood that “a weapon of mass destruction will be used in a terrorist attack somewhere in the world by the end of 2013”—has a common-sense solution. The report includes chapters on biological and nuclear risks, and one titled “Pakistan,” which would seem to suggest that the nation itself is a kind of W.M.D.

According to intelligence reports, the attacks in Mumbai were carried out by terrorists who had received extensive training from the Pakistan-based group Lashkar-e-Taiba, or Army of the Pure. Its agenda has been to force India to give up control over the disputed northern mountain region of Jammu and Kashmir. More recently, the group’s leader, Hafiz Saeed, spoke of creating a Muslim south Asia—thus, the band that carried out the killings called itself the Hyderabad Deccan Mujahideen, implying a holy war extending down to the south-central Indian region that, in the late eighteenth century, marked the farthest limit of the Mughal empire.

The name has the ring of nostalgic grandeur common among jihadist groups elsewhere, with their historical claims on far-flung places like Al Andalus, also known as Spain. And the designated targets in Mumbai suggested an ambition on the terrorists’ part extending well beyond the local troubles of Kashmir: hotels, a café, a hospital, a train station; foreign visitors, well-heeled Indians, Jews. The terrorists tortured their Jewish victims. They demanded to know the caste and home state of Indians. They held conference calls with their superiors in Lahore and Karachi to determine whether or not a certain hostage should be killed. When the goal is a Muslim south Asia, the answer is almost always yes.

The operation was so skillful and deadly, complete with a maritime landing by inflatable craft, that one security expert said that Navy SEALs would have had a hard time pulling it off. The sophisticated tactics, as well as electronic evidence, point to the involvement of top Lashkar figures, and also, according to Indian sources, of current or former officers of Pakistan’s intelligence and military. So the murders have led to a familiar volley of accusations, denials, counter-accusations, and threats between the nuclear-armed governments of India and Pakistan. They have also inspired a degree of restraint on India’s part and pledges of coöperation on Pakistan’s that are less familiar and more encouraging.

In one sense, the most appropriate response—articulated by commentators and ordinary people after the terror was over—is to express solidarity with the victims, and also with the idea of Mumbai, which, like the idea of New York, represents a vision of society that is the opposite of the vision behind names like Lashkar-e-Taiba and Hyderabad Deccan Mujahideen: impure, secular, modern, open. But moral revulsion doesn’t suggest an intelligent course of action. The attacks in Mumbai reveal the vexing complexity of the interconnected conflicts throughout south Asia. At the urging of the United States, Pakistan had moved six divisions from its eastern frontier with Indian Kashmir to fight militants on its western border with Afghanistan; now the terrorists have succeeded in inducing Pakistan to threaten to cut back its pressure on the tribal areas and redeploy its troops to the east. Islamist radicalism is the main spark that keeps inflaming these conflicts.
Some commentators have simply demanded that Pakistan rid itself of the virus of extremism that threatens its own security as well as its neighbors’. But which Pakistan is going to do it? The weak civilian government of President Asif Zardari? The two-faced security services? The tribal leaders along the Afghanistan border? The huge, overwhelmingly poor, tumultuous population? The core problem is that Pakistan is no longer really a country, if it ever was. “Our Pakistan strategy is hopelessly at odds with reality,” David Kilcullen, a former counterinsurgency adviser to the State Department, said. “We treat it as an earnest but incapable ally in the war on terrorism.” In fact, some civilian elements of the government are American allies; some military elements are American enemies. The wild northwest, where Islamist militants have extended their control and created a safe haven for Al Qaeda, has thwarted those who would govern it for a long time. Lord Curzon, the British viceroy of India at the turn of the last century, fumed, “No patchwork scheme—and all our present recent schemes . . . are mere patchwork—will settle the Waziristan problem. Not until the military steam-roller has passed over the country from end to end, will there be peace. But I do not want to be the person to start that machine.”

American policymakers must be tempted to agree. Years of U.S. efforts in Pakistan—military aid, air strikes, Special Forces operations, bilateral diplomacy, coaxings, warnings—have been patchwork, and they have failed. Different approaches, including ones suggested in “World at Risk,” such as putting more effort into development and governance in Pakistan’s northwest, or bringing other regional countries to the table, offer some promise. But, in Kilcullen’s words, “Iraq might be easier than this. It’s a very, very difficult problem, and we don’t have much leverage in it.”

In the days after the Mumbai attacks, the Washington Post reported that the Obama transition team was considering Richard Holbrooke as a special envoy to the region. The position would create a kind of civilian counterpart to General David Petraeus, the head of Central Command, filling a diplomatic void in U.S. foreign policy that the military has occupied throughout the Bush years. The Administration has always regarded terrorism in the narrow terms of war, and this myopia led it to deal with the region’s countries in isolation from one another, so that the policy in Kabul sometimes contradicted the one in Islamabad, which in turn was undermined by the growing partnership with New Delhi, and all of them were hampered by the refusal to talk to Tehran, whose role in the affairs of its neighbors to the east receives little attention. A special envoy would have to see the problem whole.

Holbrooke is the most experienced diplomat in the Democratic Party, and the aggressive negotiating skill he showed in brokering the Dayton accords that ended the war in Bosnia is badly needed in south Asia. But a legacy of the Bush Administration is that America can no longer sweep in and impose a solution on a crisis. The answers for Pakistan lie largely in its own hands—that’s the most frightening thing of all. ♦
Title: India offers US 120,000 troops to fight Taliban in Afghanistan
Post by: S.M.A. on December 30, 2008, 21:57:59
The question now is whether Washington and the rest of NATO will accept the offer of reinforcements from an unexpected source?

0230 December 29, 2008,

India offers US 120,000 troops for Afghanistan

Please note that Pakistan has withdrawn a second divisional HQ from the NWFP. We assume its is HQ 23 Division plus the one brigade that went with the HQ to NWFP; Mandeep Singh Bajwa will let us know when he has confirmation. we are approaching the point where two-thirds of the reinforcements sent west are in the process of withdrawing. Please also note Bill Roggio at Long War Journal reports that in the Orakzi agency, one of the seven tribal agencies of the NWFP, Taliban has enforced Sharia law on 15 of 21 tribes in the agency. In other words, the Talibanization of the NWFP is proceeding rapidly. We also have an analysis on why Pakistani soldiers are refusing to fight the insurgents - we already knew why, but for the first time we have information from someone on the scene. We will give it to you tomorrow. But all in all, the US by insisting Pakistan fight the insurgents set itself up for failure. Again, we have said this before, we can now say it from another angle. US policy in the region has to change dramatically if there is to be hope of success in Afghanistan.

Our trusty correspondent, Mandeep Singh Bajwa, informed us this morning that India has offered to send 120,000 troops to Afghanistan. Naturally we asked Mandeep "are we being used by the Indians in a psyops game to put pressure on Pakistan?" Not that the Government of India knows we exist, but in all the movies about the media the Editor always asks if the paper is being played.

Mandeep's answer, paraphrased, was this: "I don't know at what level the offer has been made, but the Indian Army and Air Force are down to identifying specific units, formations, and squadrons..." - details, as we said, at Long War Journal - " well as discussing a specific name for force commander, plus working on the details of pre-deployment training, so this is a lot more elaborate than needed for a psyops game.'

We'd prefer to discuss this after we learn more, rather than waste your time with elaborate theories spun out of nothing ("'s military sources say..."). But the following points are immediately apparent.

For the new US administration, this offer would be heaven-sent and just making it would put the US Government in debt to the Indians - "your other friends/allies talked, we walked." The administration could turn around to to its own people, and say: "Americans, you complain we are carrying the Afghan burden by ourselves, now we have a partner."

At we've been constantly talking about the need for more manpower; well, here you have a whacking big increment of manpower. With US/Allied troops it takes one to 75% of what considers a minimum force if Afghanistan is to be won.

In one deft swoop, India forces the Americans to chose Delhi over Islamabad. To the Indians the constant US attempt to "balance" the two countries has been a source of serious blood pressure since the 1940s; obviously if the Americans accept it has to be India First from now on and Pakistan gets marginalized. Moreover, the Indians put America up the creek without the paddle regarding Pakistan: "what is it your so-called ally is doing, compared to what we are willing to do."

The devious cunning of the Indian move becomes more apparent when you consider if the US government refuses, the American people are going to get on the Government's case: "The Indians are offering and you're still sticking with those slimey two-timers the Pakistanis?"
For India, offering a huge contingent takes the pressure off the Indian government to act aggressively against Pakistan. India does not have a launch a single sortie against Pakistan to punish it for acting against India. Indian government can tell its own people: "What good will a pinprick do? The Israelis have been bashing up the Palestinians for two decades, and where are the results? What we are doing is to strike a hard blow at Pakistan without crossing the Pakistan border and getting beat up by everyone for provoking war."

Plus India neatly destroys Pakistan's strategic depth objective. The Indians have been wanting to get into the act in Afghanistan for several years, because they know a Taliban government means more fundamentalist pressure on Pakistan and thereby on India. But the Americans have been refusing India help for fear of offending the Pakistanis. For India to get into Afghanistan in force is to again change the paradigm of Indian-Pakistani relations as happened in 1971 when India split East Bengal from Pakistan. For the last almost 40 years India's efforts to marginalize Pakistan have been stymied. If the US accepts the Indian offer, India gains hugely.

But right now a lot of American decision-makers do not care if Pakistan is offended because they see the latter has no interest in fighting the insurgents or helping the US against the Taliban. Once alternate supply routes are available, US can write off Pakistan and as a consequence, paradoxically, vastly increase its leverage in that country.

As for Pakistani/jihadi retaliation against India or the Indian contingent in Afghanistan, we've said before the Indians don't care. Their point is India is squarely in the sights of the jihadis: India is already under severe, sustained attack and unable to retaliate. As for the security of the Indian troops, that really is the last thing the Indians are concerned about. They want to go to Afghanistan to fight, not to protect their troops against suicide bombers.

Two other minor points in passing. By making this offer, India takes the wind out of Pakistan's sails because the latter has very successful turned the world's attention from the Bombay atrocity to getting the world to stop escalation between India and Pakistan. Every day that goes by, India has less diplomatic/geopolitical freedom to hit Pakistan. But if India has offered several divisions for Afghanistan, obviously the last thing the Indians are thinking of is attacking Pakistan - 3/4th of the Army troops (as opposed to the CI troops) India is earmarking for Afghanistan are from the three strike corps. So India undercuts Pakistani claims that Delhi is preparing to attack.

The second point we find interesting. PRC knows if Pakistan falls to the jihadis, Sinkiang is the next target. By offering to go to Afghanistan, India is directly helping Beijing. Which puts Beijing in a very awkward spot as India is a big rival for influence in Asia. Not only will Indians be helping PRC, if China does send troops to Afghanistan, Delhi will canoodle with Washington without competition from China. The Chinese will have no choice but to join the Afghan venture or lose influence in South and Central Asia, and with Washington.

To sum up: has been second to none in bashing the Government of India as incompetent and impotent. But with this offer, India has overnight changed the rules of game in South/Central Asia and struck a potentially fatal blow at Pakistan. In the end, this could become much, much bigger by an order of magnitude than breaking off East Pakistan in 1971.

0230 December 28, 2008

"Not tonight, dear, we have a headache" is what the Editor wants to say. This India-Pakistan thing is boring beyond words, and sorting out media misinformation/hysteria is neither fun, or educative, or easy. The matter becomes so complicated readers are tempted to say, to heck with the fine points, lets just go with the meme. So beyond a point the exercise becomes steadily less productive.


Pakistan is now in the process of withdrawing at least six and possibly seven of the 12 brigades it sent as reinforcements - under American pressure - to the NWFP. Troops are returning to XXXI, IV, and XXX Corps, all defensive corps against India. Insofar as Pakistan does not wanting to be fighting the fundamentalists/Taliban, who are their own people operating in Pakistan's national interests, the Bombay attack has proved heaven-sent. And insofar as the Pakistanis weren't any fighting worth mention, there is minimal loss to the GWOT. A bigger problem is the security of the Peshawar-Kabul supply route, and Pakistan has refused to do anything about that aside from from assigning a paramilitary Frontier Corps wing for escort. The problem being, ha-ha, the wing was already assigned to this duty.

None of this means the Pakistanis are bad, evil, duplicitous. If the US reserves the right to assure its national security as it sees best, why should not Pakistan? And to Pakistan, the US/NATO presence in Afghanistan is not a solution, it is the root cause of the problem because it reversed Pakistan's carefully thought out and well-executed policy to gain strategic depth through the tool of the Taliban. It is not our place to run down the Pakistanis: they are doing what they have to, and lets leave moral judgments from America out of the discussion. After all, the Pakistan lives in that part of the world, not America.

Please do not pin any significance to the Israeli presence in India As explained by Bill Roggio in the Israelis have been running around India for years on a variety of technical, weapons, and special forces training programs. Indeed, we are surprised has not given the details.

India is not moving troops for any confrontation with Pakistan. Its winter exercise time; these exercises are planned years in advance and are a critical component of readiness. You can't just cancel them just to deny the media a chance to make up stories.

Mandeep Bajwa has pointed out to us that conventional warfare training for Pakistan's India-front defensive formations has gotten disrupted because of the deployments to NWFP. It is perfectly reasonable for the Pakistanis to catch up on their large formation training, and they are doing just that.

India may be considering a UAV strike - at least that's we gather from our Pakistani sources. They say that they will not tolerate such a thing. Our advice? Take a Chill Pill, mates. Letting India bust up a couple of tents and huts in Kashmir is not going to cost you anything. Its truly unrealistic of you to think you can hit Bombay and India will meekly accept. Yes, you have been hitting India for decades, and India has been meekly accepting. But that game is over now.

So please don't retaliate, because then the Indians are going to be forced into major walloping and head thumping. Yes, believes no good will come out of it for either country. Easy enough for us to say, we're not responsible to the people of India and the government. We can give any amount of free advice without consequence. Indeed, the Editor's house is full with baskets of advice. Stop by and pick up a few, it'll help him.

Whatever India does, what it needs to do is capture the Indian smuggler and Pakistan ally Dawood Ibrahim and bring him to India for trial. Its not conceptually difficult, the man moves around Dubai and parts of Karachi as if he owned the place; Indian intelligence in Karachi is good, in Dubai its excellent. Our advice to the Indians is: whacking this man will do much, more more for Indian morale than blowing up empty terror camp huts with UAVs.

Meanwhile, the idea that the US needs to get the Indian Army into Afghanistan is growing. Which is to say, if the idea was 1 on a scale of 10, it has moved up to 2 on a scale of 10. We've said before the Indians had offered and the US, nervous to keep Pakistan happy, said no. Indians were quite miffed.

There was the objection that Pakistani/fundamentalist terror activity against India would increase and the Indian force in Afghanistan would also become a fat target.

The thing is the Indians don't care about increased terror activity against India because this is increasing by leaps and bounds anyway. As for the Indian Army, all we usefully say is that they absolutely do not care what sort of opposition they will face. They will take no prisoners anyway, the usual thing with foreign fighters they capture in Kashmir, so it hardly matters if the man blows himself up or if he is decapitated after capture. The Indians have a very high tolerance for casualties, by the way. Its almost as if they look at force protection as cowardice. They operate on a fraction of the logistics load the Americans/NATO require, and they have no problems tromping up the mountain and down the mountain every single day. These are the sorts of troops you need in Afghanistan.

On the US side, the factions that say Pakistan remains a valuable ally and must not be pushed beyond a certain point are losing ground. We don't think tipping point has been reached when American decision makers accept as a consensus that Pakistan is neither an ally nor a friend, and is kept superficially cooperative at gunpoint - not a useful way to keep people working for you, no? But the tipping point is coming. If earlier the overall balance was 7-3 in favor of keeping Pakistan happy, after Bombay its shifted to 6-4.

When the US sets up alternate supply routes, you will see the balance move to 5-5.

As for the Pakistanis, they are already examining the consequences for their own security given a two-corps Indian deployed to Kabul and surrounding provinces. Two corps: repeat after me, six divisions, likely 70-75 infantry battalions, each battalion of four rifle companies, plus 15+ special CI battalions of six rifle companies each.

You wanna win in Afghanistan? Make nice with the Indians.

Is this a good idea? War in this part of the world is never a good idea. The Law of Unintended Consequences will run wild. But when you run out of peaceful options, what do you do? Best India and Pakistan disengage and terminate their destabilization efforts. Is that going to happen? The Editor's History of India further back than 700 AD is murky to the point of non-existence. But if the history of the last 13 centuries is any guide, this will NOT happen. You cannot have multiple centers of power in South Asia. Its that simple.

Title: Re: India offers US 120,000 troops to fight Taliban in Afghanistan
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on December 30, 2008, 22:01:01
Won't Pakistan be pleased with this news.

Title: Re: India offers US 120,000 troops to fight Taliban in Afghanistan
Post by: Ex-Dragoon on December 30, 2008, 22:06:47
China as well I bet.
Title: Re: India offers US 120,000 troops to fight Taliban in Afghanistan
Post by: Bravo Juliet on December 30, 2008, 22:12:09
not a reliable source and 120,000 troops in Afghanistan is a logistical nightmare for India
Title: Re: India offers US 120,000 troops to fight Taliban in Afghanistan
Post by: Michael O'Leary on December 30, 2008, 22:29:41
not a reliable source and 120,000 troops in Afghanistan is a logistical nightmare for India

Can you provide an alternate source.

Also I'd like to see your views on the "logistical nightmare". For an army of the size of India's, I think they might have had people working on the logistics issues even before the offer was made.

Perhaps one part of the evolving plan is for the US to convince Pakistan to allow a corridor between India and A'stan to move troops and materiel.  In that case, India might be using the current situation to make a play at placing a significant force of its own in their "enemy's" rear. 
Title: Re: India offers US 120,000 troops to fight Taliban in Afghanistan
Post by: tomahawk6 on December 30, 2008, 22:31:02
Long War Journal isnt a reliable source ? You gotta be kidding right ? This isnt the first time that India has offered troops for Afghanistan and most likely will get the same response "Thanks but no Thanks".

India has not offered US troops, but is working on a proposal to make an offer, to the new Administration. We got the military details because the military was quick off the mark with a response.
Title: Re: India offers US 120,000 troops to fight Taliban in Afghanistan
Post by: DustintheWind on December 31, 2008, 00:00:42
not a reliable source and 120,000 troops in Afghanistan is a logistical nightmare for India

To be fair, I believe he was referring to source as in the source of the troops. Could be wrong though.

I can't see this not being a good thing? Even if it does force a chain of pressuring to some countries to help out. Seeing 120,000 Indian soldiers and then possibly a load of Chinese. The Taliban would not have a single rock to hide under in all of Afghanistan..  :o
Title: Re: India offers US 120,000 troops to fight Taliban in Afghanistan
Post by: TCBF on December 31, 2008, 01:12:57
- To me the statement that should be in bold is this:

"When the US sets up alternate supply routes, ..."

- Anybody looking at a map right now?  I have one in my head, and I don't like what I am looking at...
Title: Re: India offers US 120,000 troops to fight Taliban in Afghanistan
Post by: geo on December 31, 2008, 11:58:05
If India goes to Afghanistan.... where do you put them ???

If Indian troops were posted to the North West Frontier, facing Pakistan, then the Pakistanis would find themselves facing off against India - on two very distinct fronts & that would not be a very popular situation for the Pakistani government.  The people of Pakistan would be clamoring for their gov't to do something - more akin to supporting the Taliban than opposing it...

... Indian troops on the Iranian or Chinese border ?
... Indian government agencies participating in the reconstruction of Afghanistan is something that would be more agreeable to most all parties IMHO
Title: Re: India offers US 120,000 troops to fight Taliban in Afghanistan
Post by: GAP on December 31, 2008, 12:22:11
Seems to me that this would be a very apt moment to have some chats with the Pak government with regards to sorting out the supply problems and what's to done in the NW Frontier area.....why the US might have to take India up on it's offer to help Afghanistan protect it's eastern border, but that wouldn't be necessary if the US could rely on Pakistan to take care of an in house problem....hint, hint.....
Title: Re: India offers US 120,000 troops to fight Taliban in Afghanistan
Post by: karl28 on December 31, 2008, 12:34:47
        I know that I am not a military expert as I am just a Civilian but this sounds like good news no ?  I mean if various nations can come together to fight the pirates off the coast of Africa . Than why can't some one else come in to help in the situation in Afghanistan ?
Title: Re: India offers US 120,000 troops to fight Taliban in Afghanistan
Post by: George Wallace on December 31, 2008, 12:36:09
This It may be a great political move to accept such an offer.  With the state of Indian/Pakistani relations these days; it may be a means to get Pakistan to reassign all the troops that it moved from the Afghan Border to the Indian Border back to the Afghan Border.  This would prevent the Taliban and AQ from having free reign in those regions.
Title: Re: India offers US 120,000 troops to fight Taliban in Afghanistan
Post by: geo on December 31, 2008, 12:48:26
Yes, with 120000 Indian troops IN Afghanistan, Pakistan would station more troops on the NW frontier with Afghanistan BUT, IMHO, they would probably be facing down the Indians and not the TB + AQ... thus, an oportunity lost
Title: Re: India offers US 120,000 troops to fight Taliban in Afghanistan
Post by: on December 31, 2008, 12:59:03
It appears that it's NOT as impending as the initial report portrays - from the web page ( (highlights mine)...
....Correction: India mulling offer of 120,000 troops for Afghanistan Thanks to some quick work by Bill Roggio and Mandeep Singh Bajwa we were able to avoid getting a big smack on our news story yesterday. India has not offered US troops, but is working on a proposal to make an offer, to the new Administration. We got the military details because the military was quick off the mark with a response....

Also, as of this posting, I can't find a link to the original story on LW Journal, either...
Title: Re: India offers US 120,000 troops to fight Taliban in Afghanistan
Post by: Chris Pook on December 31, 2008, 14:28:00
And now, after that brief intermission brought to you by Honourable East India Company, we now return you to the previously scheduled event: Moguls vs Mahrattis.

Waiting in the wings for the opportunity to play off against the winner/survivor are the Sikh.

Enjoy the main event.
Title: Re: India offers US 120,000 troops to fight Taliban in Afghanistan
Post by: Kilo_302 on January 05, 2009, 15:10:06
What level of quality and equipment would these troops possess? I know India is embarking on a massive modernization program for its military, but does it have an "army within and army" like China, or is it incrementally increasing the capability of all of its regular forces? I'm thinking primarily in terms of communications gear here, there could be potential for plenty of FF.
Title: Re: India offers US 120,000 troops to fight Taliban in Afghanistan
Post by: geo on January 05, 2009, 20:10:25
For the most part, the Indian Army is very well equipped & manned.
You might see pictures of troops with Enfield or FN FAL rifles... but a lot of those are paramilitary.

this link is wikipedia... but it will give you a good general idea about their capabilities.
Title: Re: India offers US 120,000 troops to fight Taliban in Afghanistan
Post by: tdr_aust on January 06, 2009, 06:15:42
It appears that it's NOT as impending as the initial report portrays - from the web page ( (highlights mine)...
Also, as of this posting, I can't find a link to the original story on LW Journal, either...

LWJ pulled the story. I asked Bill there about it as i was not able to find teh story on his site, (LWJ). His reply was "
I did not publish on that story. I talked about this with Ravi, but my investigations on the US side told me no such offer was made. So the only info I had was from Ravi's guy in India (who is very plugged in on the Indian and Pakistani militaries BTW) which tome was not enough to go on.

Ravi later deduced this was a trial balloon.

I think Ravi assumed that since I was looking into this that I would actually publish on this... I do not have control over that.

To some extent I have some doubts on this story.

As a follow on from

0230 January 2, 2009

The Indian Troops To Afghanistan Story

Mandeep Singh Bajwa says this story is an effort by India to gauge US reaction to a potential offer of troops for Afghanistan. India is talking at several back channels level with the US. We weren't meant to get the story, but once we got it, the Indian Army, at least, wasn't uncomfortable with that. Given we are read by perhaps 4000 people a day and have a reputation in many circles of being a fringe blog, the Indian Army doesn't even have to bother denying the story, its easy enough to say "off source" that's its our wild imagination.

So we wildly imagine the following possible offer to the United States:

Lt. General Bikram Singh as Force Commander (tentative)
HQ III Corps or HQ XXI Corps
4th Infantry Division
6th Mountain Division
23rd Infantry Division
36th RAPID Division
30+ Rashtriya Rifles CI battalions
2 Reconnaissance and Observation squadrons (Army Aviation)
1 Il-76 squadron
2 An-32 squadrons
4+ Mi-17 helicopter units
1 UAV squadron
2 fighter squadrons
Undetermined number of paramilitary security battalions

HQ III Corps is the counter-insurgency corps in Eastern Command, it is dual-tasked to the western front. In exercises and on operations it has functioned, on different occasions, in three different sectors. HQ XXI Corps is the third Indian strike corps, but is not as critical as the other two strike corps and is dual-tasked as India's intervention force corps. So there's good reasons to take either.

The infantry divisions include a tank battalion. 36th Division has one tank and two infantry brigades. All four divisions are part of strike corps and so are not deployed on the front, but India will give up its ability to sustain a major offensive against Pakistan if these divisions are overseas.

The only thing that needs explanation for our non-Indian readers is the Rashtriya Rifles. These are specialized for counter-insurgency and have six rifle companies vs the usual Indian infantry battalion's four. CI is, after all, a manpower intensive business. The troops are all regular Army and do a 3-year rotation with the RR from their affiliated regiments with the RR. Each Army regimental center has 3 or more RR battalions affiliated.

Because the Indians tend to bulk up their divisions with extra brigades and their brigades with extra infantry battalions when on CI, its probably reasonable to assume the four divisions will have 50 battalions with them (including corps independent brigades).  With the RR, that's 380 rifle companies, or the equivalent of nine US divisions. (We count the US brigade as having 10 companies, because the cavalry squadron in the brigade is very manpower short. We're sure it's all well and fine in the type of high-tech/sensor dense environment for which it is designed, but we're talking CI here.   

Our Humble Opinion

The United States would be mad to refuse the Indian offer.
The Indians would be mad to actually follow through. (
Title: Re: India offers US 120,000 troops to fight Taliban in Afghanistan
Post by: TCBF on January 06, 2009, 11:56:14
- Probably more effectives than the Russians had in Afghanistan at any one time.

- Could they be our relief in place in 2011?
Title: Re: India offers US 120,000 troops to fight Taliban in Afghanistan
Post by: Infanteer on January 06, 2009, 12:10:23
Anyone with a reasonable understanding of regional politics and history knows this would go over real well - I would compare it to bringing a division of Israeli troops to help quell an insurgency in Anbar Province.
Title: Re: India offers US 120,000 troops to fight Taliban in Afghanistan
Post by: TCBF on January 06, 2009, 12:42:49
Anyone with a reasonable understanding of regional politics and history knows this would go over real well - I would compare it to bringing a division of Israeli troops to help quell an insurgency in Anbar Province.

- In the South and East, perhaps.  In the rest of the country - maybe not.
Title: Re: India offers US 120,000 troops to fight Taliban in Afghanistan
Post by: E.R. Campbell on January 06, 2009, 12:55:16
Anyone with a reasonable understanding of regional politics and history knows this would go over real well - I would compare it to bringing a division of Israeli troops to help quell an insurgency in Anbar Province.

But the very public discussion of the possibility, however remote, does focus minds in Pakistan.

If, and it's a very Big IF, India were to become involved then I would guess that China would demand an equal role. The participation of both might be useful, despite the problems India would cause.
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: old medic on January 15, 2009, 23:47:08
 71 militants arrested for Mumbai attacks
Thu, January 15, 2009

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — A senior Pakistani official says authorities have arrested 71 people in a crackdown on groups allegedly linked to the terrorist attacks in Mumbai, India.

Interior Secretary Kamal Shah says that another 124 people in Pakistan had been placed under surveillance.

Interior Ministry chief Rehman Malik had announced earlier that 124 people had been detained, but Shah said Malik had misspoken.

India says a Pakistan-based militant group called Lashkar-e-Taiba masterminded the November attack.

The assault killed 164 people and raised tensions between the nuclear-armed neighbours.

Indian officials have expressed skepticism about Pakistani pledges to co-operate in the investigation.
Title: Re: India offers US 120,000 troops to fight Taliban in Afghanistan
Post by: S.M.A. on January 16, 2009, 02:10:40
Could this latest update also be an indication of where else (other than Kashmir) they are going?

India To Focus on Anti-Insurgency Equipment (
By vivek raghuvanshi
Published: 15 Jan 11:58 EST (16:58 GMT) 

NEW DELHI - The Indian Army will buy weapons and equipment to fight low-intensity warfare in the northern Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir, Gen. Deepak Kapoor, chief of the Indian Army, said Jan. 14. The Army will focus on "counterterrorist and counterinsurgency capabilities," he said.

Indian Defence Ministry sources said procurement of equipment related to low-intensity combat will be accelerated.

The comments by Kapoor come as tension has increased between India and Pakistan, two neighbors which have fought four wars since 1947, because of the Nov. 26 Mumbai terror attacks.

All options, including the military one, are open in dealing with Pakistan, Kapoor said, as New Delhi steps up diplomatic efforts to garner international support against Islamabad for the alleged terror camps being operated from Pakistan soil.

"We live in troubled times and a fragile region, and the possibility of a marginal conventional conflict cannot be ruled out. We must maintain [a] high level of combat readiness at all times," Kapoor said.

Immediately after the Mumbai attacks, the Air Force had been put on "Passive Air Defence," which is just one step short of the posture for launching offensive strikes across the boundary, said a senior Air Force official.

Kapoor said Pakistan had moved some troops from Federally Administered Tribal Areas along the Afghan border to its border with India, adding that the "movement of Pakistani troops has been factored in India's planning."

The last time India put its troops on alert was in 2002, which followed terror attacks in December 2001 on the Indian Parliament.

Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: ENGINEERS WIFE on March 23, 2009, 11:04:51
Mumbai gunman tells court that he is from Pakistan
Updated Mon. Mar. 23 2009 7:57 AM ET

The Associated Press

MUMBAI, India -- The only gunman charged in last year's terror attacks in Mumbai told an Indian court Monday, the first day of court proceedings, that he would agree to a government-provided lawyer and also repeated that he was a Pakistani national.

Mohammed Ajmal Kasab -- captured during the attacks and jailed ever since -- addressed the court via video link from prison because of concerns about his security. This was his second such appearance.

Special judge M.L. Tahiliyani asked Kasab to identify himself and asked him where he was from. Kasab replied that he was from Faridkot, in Pakistan's Punjab province.

Tahiliyani asked Kasab if he could see him clearly through the video link and then introduced himself as the judge heading his trial. Kasab, who looked relaxed and was dressed in a gray tunic and loose pants, said, "Namaste," a popular Hindu greeting.

Kasab told the court that he had no legal counsel so far and when Tahiliyani asked if he would like the court to provide him with a lawyer, he said, "do whatever you think is right."

Kasab, 21, was charged last month with 12 criminal counts, including murder and waging war against India and could face the death penalty if convicted. Nine other attackers were killed during the three-day siege in November, which left 164 people dead and targeted luxury hotels, a Jewish center and other sites across the city.

India has blamed the attack on Lashkar-e-Taiba, an Islamist militant group widely believed created by Pakistani intelligence agencies in the 1980s to fight Indian rule in the divided Kashmir region.

Last month, Pakistani officials acknowledged that the attacks were partly plotted on their soil and announced criminal proceedings against eight suspects. They also acknowledged that Kasab is a Pakistani national.

The trial was supposed to be conducted by a special court in Mumbai's Arthur Road jail, where Kasab is housed. On Monday, however, special public prosecutor Ujjwal Nikam also asked the court to delay the trial until April 13 because the security infrastructure in the prison was not ready.

The court will reconvene March 30 to decide whether the delay should be allowed, Nikam told reporters.

Nikam had said last month that he expected the trial to conclude within six months -- unusually swift for India, where the legal process can drag on for decades. The trial in India's deadliest terror attack, the 1993 Mumbai bombings that killed 257 people, took 14 years to complete
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: geo on March 23, 2009, 12:44:58
Given that 4 months have elapsed since the incident & the Indian courts have only just now offered the Terrorist legal aid, I do not expect a trial to begin anytime soon.... let alone have it conclude within six months.

Someone is wearing "rosie" sunglasses
Title: Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Post by: ENGINEERS WIFE on March 23, 2009, 12:52:14
Someone is wearing "rosie" sunglasses

You are soooo right geo....but, I do think that might be a bit of an understatement ;D
Title: India (Superthread)
Post by: Yrys on April 13, 2009, 15:56:19

Country profile: India (, BBC News, March 2009
Timeline: India ( (from 1858 to February 2009), BBC News, March 2009
India page (, NY Times
All About... India (, CNN
CIA World factbook : India ( : geography, people, government,
economy, communications, transportation,  military, transnational Issue), CIA

Terrorism in India (
Indian travel guide (
Current local time and weather in New Delhi (

Indian elections battleground map (, April 2009
Voting in the Indian election takes place in five phases from 16 April - 13 May.
The result is announced on Saturday 16 May.

Indian elections: Key players (
A guide to India's coalitions (
Indian election in numbers (
Quick guide: Indian election (

India: Democracy's dance (
Six myths about Indian elections (
 Decline of India's political leviathans (
High growth, low votes (

India's defiant opposition leader (, 6 April 2009
 Poll woe looms for West Bengal left (, 8 April 2009
Bollywood star electrifies India poll (, 10 April 2009
Dancer steps into Indian politics (, 11 April 2009
In pictures: India election campaign (, 6 April 2009

Some threads here about India :
India accuses Pakistan of attack in Kashmir region (,25592.0.html), January 2005
India seeks permanent UN Security Council seat (,25508.0.html), January 2005
Guilty Plea In Air India Case  (,2603.0.html), February 2003
Air India suspects found not guilty (,28500.0.html), March 2005
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Yrys on April 13, 2009, 16:03:44

 Religious rift tears at Orissa communities (, 13 April 2009

Many Christians in Kandhamal say prayer is all they have left

Hundreds of people have gathered in the darkness in the town of Raikia. Candlelight flickers across
their faces as they sit quietly on the floor. They chant and pray as a priest leads them in worship.

For Christians, Easter is a time of hope. But in Kandhamal, deep in the interior in the eastern Indian
state of Orissa, hope is in short supply. This is a community still traumatised by a sudden burst of
violence last year, described as the worst anti-Christian rioting in India since independence. Dozens
of people were killed, and hundreds of churches and houses were damaged or destroyed.

Tiny shacks

Utsva and Minati Digal have come to celebrate midnight Mass in Raikia, where the parish church still
stands. Last year they were burnt out of their home. Their local church was left in ruins. Prayer, they
say, is all they have left. An hour's walk down the road, they now live with 11 other families in a field.
The whole group lives in a single tent, next to a collection of tiny shacks made of wood and plastic
sheeting. Utsva and Minati say no-one will employ Christians as day labourers any more, and the
children cannot go to school.

"We are having a very hard time living here," Utsva says. "We have no protection and there is a sense
of fear that at any time someone can attack us. So we try to sleep in the day and take turns to guard
our place at night."

Minati also complains that they have not had enough help from the government, and they do not have
enough rice to feed everyone properly. "There are too many of us," she says, as her daughter tugs at
the hem of her sari. "Now we just want to go to any place where we can get our life back. Here we
are constantly threatened and targeted."

Thousands of Kandhamal's Christians are still living a makeshift life, and their former neighbours are
refusing to let them go back to their homes. Only if they renounce their faith, convert to Hinduism,
and drop charges against anyone allegedly involved in last year's pogrom will they be allowed to return.

In one village Hindus have been told that anyone even talking to the Christians would be fined more
than 1,000 rupees ($20; £14). We went looking for Hindu villagers, and found a small election rally
for the Hindu nationalist party, the BJP.

Orissa goes to the polls in the first round of India's general elections on Thursday.


We followed the BJP candidate, Ashok Sahu, to another tiny hamlet, past the ruins of another broken,
abandoned church. But it is the Hindus, Mr Sahu insists, who face discrimination. Hundreds have been
arrested, he says, since last year's riots. "I don't justify violence, but there are two types of violence,"
he explains. "One is planned violence and the other is spontaneous violence." "A maximum number of
Christians were killed, yes it is a fact, but why? The Hindu sense of dignity has come to the surface in
a spontaneous manner and they want to protect that sense of dignity."

Ashok Sahu is now facing charges for inciting hatred against Christians in one of his campaign
speeches. He insists that he is the victim of a political conspiracy. "If I'm arrested," he warns,
"a volcano will erupt."


All of which is not much comfort to another 43 Christian families who are camped out in a market
on the edge of the town of G Udayagiri. On market days, they are simply pushed with their belongings
into a corner.

More than eight months after violent rioting shook this district, there is little prospect that political
change will make things any better. "There are peace committees," says Praful Mallick, one of the
men living in the market. "But the peace committees are full of the people who led the riots. What
difference is that going to make?"

A local priest, Father Ajay Singh, says: "In this place where we are sitting presently, you can see
they have been neglected by the administration and the public, nobody bothers about it. "People are
divided along caste lines and religious lines, and this election will only make the situation worse."

The plight of Kandhamal's Christians has received international attention. And yet they are still living
in a state of great uncertainty. The roots of the violence here are complex - last year's pogrom broke
out after the murder of a local Hindu leader. But many Christians have simply fled from this region
altogether, and there are signs that Hindu activists would like to force the rest to leave as well.

In this election season, Kandhamal remains a test of India's commitment to secular politics, and
religious freedom.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Yrys on April 14, 2009, 02:14:26
India poll candidate found dead (


Massive protests have been held in India's Uttar Pradesh state after the body of a parliamentary
candidate was found hanging from a banyan tree. Bahadur Sonkar, 35, was a candidate of the
Indian Justice Party in Jaunpur, 50km west of the city of Varanasi. Police used sticks to beat back
the crowd and prevented protesters from going near the body for several hours.

Mr Sonkar had been campaigning in the area. His family has blamed a rival candidate for killing him.
The body has now been taken down and is undergoing a post-mortem examination.

'Murder of democracy'

Local journalists say that Mr Sonkar had informed the authorities that he feared for his life and sought
protection. Mr Sonkar had alleged that he was under pressure to withdraw his candidature and support
the state's governing Bahujan Samaj Party (BSP).

The BBC's Ram Dutt Tripathi in Jaunpur says the rival candidate accused by the family has a number of
criminal cases pending against him.

Local MP and Samajwadi Party candidate, Paras Nath Yadav, described Mr Sonkar's killing as the
"murder of democracy".

Jaunpur district police chief Vinod Kumar Dohrey said a case had been registered and an investigation
was under way.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on April 20, 2009, 13:11:44
India demonstrates its capabilities once again.

  India launches spy satellite


The Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV) rocket, carrying a spy satellite as payload, leaves a trail of smoke as it blasts off into space from Sriharikota. India put the Israeli-built spy satellite into orbit Monday, aimed at boosting its defence surveillance capabilities in the aftermath of the Mumbai militant attacks.

BANGALORE (AFP) – India put an Israeli-built spy satellite into orbit Monday, aimed at boosting its defence surveillance capabilities in the aftermath of the Mumbai militant attacks.

The satellite, which can see through clouds and carry out day-and-night all-weather imaging, has been a long-standing demand of the Indian military.

Its acquisition was fast-tracked after the November 26-29 Mumbai siege in which 10 gunmen went on a shooting spree, killing 165 people.

The 300 kilogram (650 pound) RISAT 2 was launched by the Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle rocket from the Sriharikota launch site, 90 kilometers (56 miles) north of the southern city of Chennai.

"It has been successfully placed in the orbit 20 minutes after lift off this morning," G. Padmanabhan, a scientist from India's Space Research Organisation told AFP by phone.

India says the Mumbai attackers came by boat from the Pakistani port city of Karachi.

India's existing satellites get blinded at night and in the monsoon season.

The new acquisition will also provide New Delhi with the capability to track incoming hostile ballistic missiles.

India treated Israel like a pariah for decades, but has forged close military links with Tel Aviv in recent years with the Jewish state replacing France in 2007 as its second-largest arms supplier after Russia. (;_ylt=AkLWj3i2_WDJbxTdny164dEBxg8F) 
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Yrys on April 27, 2009, 13:54:09
Millions of Indians go to polls (, 16 april

Police helped refugees from Orissa to reach their polling stations

TEXT COMMENTARY (all times Indian standard time, GMT+5.5)

By Joe Boyle

Millions of Indians have braved searing heat to cast their ballots on a day marred by deadly attacks
from Maoist insurgents. We followed day one of the world's largest election with news, blogs, your
comments, and insights from BBC correspondents.

0650 Welcome to our live coverage of the first phase of India's general election. We will be
updating this page throughout the day, bringing you insights from BBC correspondents, some of
your emails and Twitter comment, and the best of the blogs, TV and press.

0700  The first polling stations open.

0708 Voting is due to start in dozens of constituencies affected by Maoist insurgencies - in
parts of Jharkhand, Orissa, Bihar and Maharashtra. The bulk of polling stations will open at 0800.

0715 CNN-Ibn reports a trickle of voters turning up in Thiruvananthapuram in Kerala.
Congratulations to the Keralites - the earliest confirmed voters.

0720  The BBC's Geeta Pandey says:  Kerala has traditionally registered a very high turnout,
so that's what is expected this time too.

0740  Indian TV station   Times Now   reports that Maoist rebels hurl a bomb at border guards
in Latehar, Jharkhand.

tweet hallucinations from Cochin, Kerala tweets: India Election '09 begins 2day. Even though I
can't find a suitable candidate, I'll be taking part with no hope that it'll bring any change! Read 
hallucinations' tweets (on twitter).

0745  The BBC's Sanjoy Majumder in Varanasi says: The first few voters have started streaming
into polling stations here, many of them set up in schools and colleges. Nearly 150 million people are
eligible to vote in this round - and the poll is too close to call. The main opposition BJP is hoping to
unseat the governing Congress party but both are facing a strong challenge from regional parties. It's
the same story across India and the smaller parties could well hold the key to the next government.

0755 Shashi Tharoor, the writer and former UN official, tells Indian TV he has just voted "for
the first time in India" and says it is a great privilege. He's standing for the Congress party in

0800  And the election begins in earnest. All the remaining polling stations are due to open,
with 124 constituencies up for grabs.

0802  The trouble in Latehar looks to have taken a tragic turn, with six people reported killed
by Maoist insurgents.

0810  More Maoist attacks - this time rebels fire at election officials in Mangnar and Maroki
in Dantewada district, Chhattisgarh.

0820 The BBC's Omer Farooq in the southern city of Hyderabad, says: I am standing outside a
private school in Secunderabad constituency and there are at least 200 voters in the queue already to
cast their ballots. This is a middle-class constituency and the fight is between the Congress and the
BJP. But there is a lot of confusion among the voters over which polling booth they have been allotted
to cast their ballots. Usually political parties hand out slips to voters in the queue indicating their
polling booth, but voters here say none of the parties have given them anything.

... (read the inbetween statements  in the link that is up.)

1700 The BBC's Geeta Pandey in Delhi says: According to the Times of India website, Deepak
Bhardwaj of the Bahujan Samaj Party (BSP) is the richest candidate contesting the parliamentary
elections. Mr Bhardwaj filed his nomination papers from the West Delhi constituency on Thursday.
He has declared his assets to be a whopping $120m. Mr Bhardwaj went to file his nomination paper
on a tractor that he uses on his farmland. The 58-year-old tycoon owns businesses in real estate,
hotels and education.

1703 Polls due to close in most constituencies.
1708 The BBC's Soutik Biswas in Delhi says: As polling draws to an end, it appears that Indians,
as usual, have exercised their right to vote as rousingly as ever. Correspondents across the country
have been reporting healthy turnouts as voters braved long treks to polling stations amid boiling heat
and Maoist intimidation. In fact, parts of Kerala and Andhra Pradesh in the south appear to have
recorded a turnout in excess of 65%, higher than the national turnout average in past elections.
Even Jammu in the disputed Kashmir region seems to have recorded between 50% and 60% turnout.
Experts will debate endlessly what this high turnout means and which party gains from it. But it
definitely proves one thing: democracy in India is alive and kicking, perhaps more than anywhere
else in the world.

1708 The BBC's Omer Farooq in Hyderabad says: Officially the polling time is over but long 
queues of voters are waiting for their turn, and the election authorities have decided to allow every 
voter who joined the queue before 4pm to vote. So many voters are gathered at the Malkajgiri Lok 
Sabha constituency that polling may have to continue till 7pm.

1722 OK, so plenty happened today to keep us all occupied. But for those of you who've caught
India election fever, don't worry, there are four more days like this one. And then, of course, the 
small matter of totting up as many as 700 million votes - when we'll be running another live 
commentary just like this one.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Yrys on April 27, 2009, 14:23:34
 Election grips US-based Indians (, 22 april


After a day's work at Penn State University, where he is a professor of engineering and department
head, Dinesh Agrawal returns home and turns on his computer to indulge his passion for politics.

But it's not the daily duels between Democrats and Republicans in America that transfix him.
Dr Agrawal's attention is focused laser-like on the election season drama playing out halfway across
the globe.

A former president of the Overseas Friends of the Bharatiya Janata Party (OFBJP), he is part of
a dedicated band of Indian-Americans that is drumming up support for political parties in India.

From the recently concluded US elections to the upcoming vote in India, the past few months have
been exciting for Indian-Americans. But for some, the excitement of a historic US presidential
election pales in comparison with what's happening in India.


"We were very enthusiastic about Barack Obama because we have a vote here. But in India, even
though we cannot vote, we have a much stronger emotional involvement," says Dr Agrawal. This
bond has drawn Indian-Americans from as far away as Chicago and New Jersey to work on campaigns
in places such as Chhattisgarh and Gujarat. But it is not something that appeals to everyone. A large
majority of second-generation Indian-Americans are significantly more detached from Indian politics.

The US arms of major Indian political parties - the OFBJP and Indian National Overseas Congress
(INOC) - have been working hard to create an awareness among Indian voters about the importance
of supporting their respective parties and candidates.

The OFBJP has undoubtedly been better organised in this effort. Founded in 1991 in New York,
the OFBJP has a mission to "educate the ethnic Indian community, dispel the misgivings and false
perceptions of the American public and lawmakers, correct the media distortions, propagate the
BJP's philosophy and at the same time foster friendly relations between the two counties".

Some Indian Americans have been working a "half-day job" raising awareness about their party's

'Biggest thing'

"Every day I spend a few hours in the evening reading news from India and informing people here
in the US and in India about what can be done to help the BJP," says Dr Agrawal, who was in Uttar
Pradesh this year and confesses to have been worried about the low morale of his party. Since then,
he believes, the party has been galvanised by the row over the detention of BJP candidate Varun
Gandhi - a member of the Nehru Gandhi political dynasty.

OFBJP members across the US have been calling in for teleconferences to discuss strategy. Some
Indian Americans are travelling to India to help candidates with their campaigns. Nimesh Dikshit,
a New Jersey-based IT consultant, will be volunteering on BJP campaigns in Gujarat. He is upset
that "in the last five years the biggest thing that came out of India was the Mumbai attacks" and
believes it is crucial that the BJP sweeps this election.

It is illegal for US citizens to donate money to Indian politicians or their campaigns and most
Indian-Americans are quick to point out that they do not make such contributions. However some
do admit to giving money to their "relatives" in India.

Surinder Malhotra, the New York-based president of INOC, says members of his group do not
believe in getting financially involved with Indian politicians. "Our job is to see that money is not
used for social disharmony," he says.

The OFBJP also denies raising funds for the BJP.

"It's very hard to track the flow of money," says Vijay Prashad, a professor of international studies
at Trinity College in Hartford, Connecticut. "Everyone says they are going to volunteer their time,
not give money."

Influence voters

The OFBJP has spent money on placing advertisements in newspapers in the US and India - telling
readers to "call your family members and friends in India and urge them to vote and campaign for
the BJP".  The organisation has about 800 members and reaches out to Indian expatriates in Britain
and Canada

OFBJP leaders are in constant touch with BJP leaders in India, where as relatively affluent middle
class professionals, they have the power to influence voters in urban areas of India. IT experts have
even helped to launch, a crucial tool in OFBJP's outreach efforts. National security tops
the list of concerns for the OFBJP, followed by the economy and H-1B visas
for Indian professionals working in the US.

Supporters of the Congress party in the US have also not been inactive. They point out that "even
the BJP acknowledges that we have never had such an honest prime minister as Manmohan Singh".

"Congress has been strong on combating terrorism," Dr Malhotra says. "There have been historic
achievements on [the Congress party] watch - we have a civilian nuclear deal with the United States
and India is no longer a nuclear pariah. "Look at how a financial crisis grips the rest of the world,
but India has not been affected much by it."

Both parties are confident that their efforts from thousands of miles away will eventually pay off.

"We people from America... our message carries much weight in India," Dr Agrawal contends.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on May 20, 2009, 10:11:54
Thinking about Indian-American relations:

Why the U.S. should listen to India’s voters
By: Michael Barone
Senior Political Analyst
05/19/09 7:41 PM EDT   
Last November 131, million Americans voted, and the whole world took notice. Over the last month, about 700 million Indians voted, and most Americans, like most of the world, didn’t much notice. To be sure, American elections are more important to people all over the world than those in any other country. But the election in India is more important to Americans than most of us realize. Including, perhaps, our president.

This was not always so. During the Cold War, India was something of a de facto ally of the Soviet Union. This was due in part to our alliance with its rival neighbor Pakistan, but also to a feeling of solidarity with the U.S.S.R. on the part of the ruling Congress party and its two historic leaders, Jawaharlal Nehru and his daughter Indira Gandhi.

The Congress vision of India was built on three pillars: socialism, autarky and secularism. Socialism meant a government-driven economy policed by a Permit Raj — government bureaucrats had to approve every economic change. Autarky meant cutting India off from world trade, so that local industries could grow. Secularism meant toleration of religious diversity in a nation with both a large Hindu majority and the world’s second largest Muslim population.

The fall of the Soviet Union removed two of these three pillars. Manmohan Singh, then finance minister and now prime minister, began dismantling the Permit Raj. Successive governments led by the Congress party and the Hindu nationalist BJP opened up India to trade, and export industries grew. Secularism remained, embraced by the Congress and not entirely repudiated by the BJP.

With the de facto alliance with the Soviets defunct, India was now open to an American alliance. Bill Clinton became the first U.S. president to visit India in years. George W. Bush moved further, cultivating closer ties with India and signing and getting ratified a nuclear cooperation treaty.

It became obvious that we had much in common. Both countries have a large and capable military, both have nuclear weapons, both have electoral democracies and English common law traditions, and both are prime targets of Islamist extremists. After Sept. 11, when Pakistan’s Gen. Pervez Musharraf made a U-turn and promised to help the United States in Afghanistan, he did so in the awareness that the U.S. had a friend on the other side of his border.

India also has the potential to contain the power of China, in conjunction with other well-armed democracies around its periphery — Japan, South Korea and Australia. Its economy has been growing almost as fast as China’s, and it now has a middle class of perhaps 200 million people.

The election held over four weeks in April and May has produced a result very much to our advantage. The Congress party has been returned to power with a larger share of the vote than indicated by pre-election and exit polls, and will no longer need Communists and left-wingers for majorities in the Lok Sabha. The BJP attacked Congress for being too close to the United States; voters evidently decided that this was not a minus but a plus.

All of which puts the ball in Barack Obama’s court. He has scarcely mentioned India in public since he became president, even as he has been making emollient noises to the mullah regime in Iran. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, meanwhile, said publicly she wouldn’t object to China’s abuses of the human rights, which India has worked hard to uphold. The U.S. is preoccupied with the turmoil inside Pakistan, as well as with Pakistan’s problematic role in the fight against the Taliban. But building closer relations with India would give us more leverage in Islamabad. Clinton, who played a constructive role in her husband’s outreach to India, should understand this. Perhaps Obama does too.

But it’s hard to tell. Obama has continued military operations in Iraq and stepped them up in Afghanistan, but otherwise he is banking heavily on the proposition that he can convince those who have been our sworn enemies that they should be our friends. Maybe that will work. But in the meantime, it would not hurt to show some solicitude for our friends in India, with whom we share strategic interests and moral principles. The 700 million voters of India have chosen to be our ally. We should take them up on it.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on May 23, 2009, 11:44:14
Another update:



Dated 22/5/2009

Heralding a new chapter, the first Indian Air Force AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) platform that altogether sets to alter the dimension of the see-through capability of the IAF beyond conventional visions of ground-based and tethered electromagnetic sensors, will arrive in India on May 25.

In 2004 India signed a $1.1 billion contract with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) for three new Phalcon AWACS.

On its maiden flight from Israel to India, the veritable flying-giant with an all-pervasive electromagnetic vision will land first at Jamnagar in western Gujarat and arrive at Palam airport the following day. Although slated to operate from Agra, home to the mammoth Ilyushin family in India, an induction ceremony awaits the first AWACS in the National Capital.

The ceremony will be attended by among others the Chief of the Air Staff, Vice Chief of the Air Staff, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chiefs of the Western and Central Air Command and other senior dignitaries from the Ministry of Defence, Air HQs besides air warriors from the squadron itself.

The AWACS is an airborne mission support system fitted on an IL-76 aircraft with improved engines. With radar that can help detect even a cruise missile or an aircraft at ranges far more than the ranges detected through the present ground-based radars, the AWACS radar, most sophisticated to date, can collate surface information about troop movements and missile launches even while listening to highly confidential communications between enemy frontline units.

Air combats the world over are now envisaged in an ever-increasing electronic surveillance environment where pilots have little liberties for individual manouevring without endangering their own lives or safety of their aircraft. The IAF AWACS will help pilots find hitherto unconceivable space and room for tactical manouevres in the air under controlled directions that will give them an edge over their adversaries at all times.

AWACS, a potent force-multiplier, will significantly enhance the effectiveness of both - offensive and defensive operations. The intensity and pace of modern air battle need AWACS for a successful air defence umbrella to be maintained. The swift mobility that the AWACS platform provides will help neutralize any threat as it can be moved anywhere at a very short notice.
Title: While nobody is looking - UNREST in INDIA
Post by: George Wallace on June 14, 2009, 22:15:13
Seems to be off the radar for most here, but not only has the unrest in Afghanistan and Pakistan spewed over into India with the Mumbai bombings, but various factions within India are causing unrest.  Hindu militants have harassed Christians in some Regions.  India is not at peace.

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.  (Title is link to article and video.)

Unrest continues in Rajasthan, following yesterday’s deaths

05/30/2007 12:24

New Delhi (AsiaNews) – The situation Karauli close to Dausa, in Rajasthan 80 kilometres from Jaipur remains tense following yesterday’s police crackdown on protesters from Gujjar tribes, who had organised a sit in on the national Jaipur-Agra road. The area is now under army control while members of the government debate the incident; some are calling for an immediate investigation, others are down-playing it.

Unrest continues, despite the presence of thousands of men patrolling the important Jaipur-Agra road. In Dausa protesters continue to block streets and have set two police stations on fire.  Streets have also been blocked and shops damaged in protests in other areas.

The Gujjar community is asking for ST or “Superior Tribe” status, which would give them access to public employment and a quota of places in State schools and collages.  It is a tribe of nomads, spread throughout the Nation, which until now has been considered an inferior tribe.   Yesterday in Karauli, police rushed a crowd of 30 thousand protesters after they refused to obey a dispersal order.  Armed with batons and tear gas they eventually opened fire on the resistant crowd.  Protesters reacted by attacking the police vehicles.  Many raided the nearby police station in Sikandara, setting it on fire and killing two officers.  Similar events occurred in Bundi, 250 kilometres from Jaipur, as well as clashes in Jaipur, Tonk, and Sawai Madhopur.

Only hour’s later State home minister Gulab Chand Kataria admitted that, “Six civilians and two policemen died in Dausa.” “Six villagers and one policeman died in Bundi. There is no information about the four policemen who were abducted by the crowd”.

The Gujjar claim that their rights are being ignored after the death of their leader Rajesh Pilot and that the Chief Minister Vasundhara Raje has reneged on what is often described as her 2003 Assembly poll promise to grant ST status to them. Already September 3rd last the Gujjar rose in protest, de-railing railway tracks in Hindaun, Karauli district. At the time a compromise was reached, by the government is accused of failing to follow through in their pledges. 

The Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata (Bjp) led state government appears divided.  Its premier Raje speaks of unrest caused by an organised group and says “violations of the law will not be tolerated”.  Ravi Shankar Prasad, Bjp spokesman has described it as an “unfortunate incident” but has not condemned the police firing nor demanded a probe into it.

Instead BJP vice-president Sahib Singh Verma, “condemns the police for having opened fire” and has demanded “There should be a high-level inquiry” into events.

HK Dahmor, Chief administrator of Dausa, says that “the police tried to negotiate”.  Police sources say they opened fire for self defence purposes and arrested over 300 people.

But tribal leader Avinash Badana told the television that the police opened fire on “defenceless demonstrators”. (NC)


 Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.  (Title is link to article and video.)

India: Unrest Continues in Kashmir; Road Accident Deaths Soar

August 27th, 2008

Unrest continued into a third week in Kashmir in protests over a land use dispute that have grown into the largest demonstrations in the region in 20 years. Authorities imposed an indefinite curfew and killed five protesters who violated it Aug. 25. So far 28 people have been killed and more than 600 injured. In other news, deaths on India’s roads have soared in recent years as more vehicles squeeze onto the crowded streets, driving skills are seldom taught and traffic rules are rarely enforced. The World Bank estimates the mortality rate in India is 14 per 10,000 vehicles compared to less than two in developed countries. The situation is likely to get worse in the future as growing prosperity makes automobile ownership possible for millions more Indians. Tourists should leave the driving to local professionals.


 Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.  (Title is link to article and video.)

Christian-Hindu Unrest leads to Violence in India
Posted by ReligiousLiberty.TV
September 19, 2008 

A reader in India has alerted us to contemporary conflict between Hinduism and Christianity in India.  Here are several news stories about this:

7 prayer halls in DK, Udupi & Chikmagalur face wrath
Thousands of Christians staged road blockades in several parts of the city on Sunday, after suspected Bajrang Dal activists carried out a series of attacks on prayer halls in Dakshina Kannada, Udupi and Chikmagalur districts, alleging conversion…

Police resorted to caning to disperse the protesters, including nuns and women, in the evening near Milagres Hall complex, while a few people threw stones at the police. In the melee, some were hurt and a few vehicles damaged.

The district administration has clamped ban orders in these areas for three days, starting Sunday.

The places of worship which were attacked in Dakshina Kannada include Poor Clares of Perpetual Adoration Monastery in Mangalore city, Christ Church at Kodikal near Mangalore, Believers Church of India at Puttur, Mahima Prathanalaya and Indian Pentecostal (both at Madanthyar in Belthangady taluk) and Bethesda Aradanalaya at Sullia.

The modus operandi of all the attacks was similar: a group of 20-25 persons barged into the prayer halls between 10 am and 10.30 am, damaged the furniture and desecrated the statues of Jesus Christ.

As news spread, Christians in Mangalore came onto the streets in large numbers and blocked roads till night. Union Minister Oscar Fernandes visited the protesters near Milagres in the evening.

Read more from the Deccan Herald - DH News Service Mangalore


Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.  (Title is link to article and video.)

Hindu-Christian clashes intensify in India

Updated Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:36am AEST

Three churches near India's southern city of Bangalore have been ransacked by suspected Hindu extremists, despite a government crackdown on anti-Christian attacks. Police believe a right-wing Hindu group vandalised the churches, and have arrested their leader. More than two dozen churches have now been attacked in the southern state of Karnataka over the past week. It follows similar clashes in the eastern state of Orissa in which up to 20 people died. Karnataka's 2.5 million Christians say they're being targetted for opposing the violence in Orissa.

Presenter: Murali Krishnan
Speakers: Junior home minister Sri Prakash Jaiswal; Vinod Bansal a spokesperson for the Vishwa Hindu Parishad; Father Babu Joseph of the Catholic Bishops Conference of India

KRISHNAN: The wave of violence and destruction follows weeks of anti-Christian militancy in the eastern state of Orissa in which 20 people have been killed and thousands forced to flee from their homes and take refuge in the surrounding jungles. Tension still runs high in many parts of the state. But the sudden spurt of anti-Christian violence in Karnataka, which has until now spared the large-scale clash between Christians and Hindus, is causing major concern to the government in New Delhi. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's government has despatched a fact-finding team, comprising members of the National Minorities Commission (NCM) and National Commission for Women (NCW). Junior home minister Sri Prakash Jaiswal also led a delegation to Bhubaneshwar, Orissa's state capital to get a first hand account of the situation.

JAISWAL: We have come to Bhuwaneshwar to conduct an on the spot assessment especially to find why the situation has so rapidly deteriorated. The delegation will go to the various places hit by violence.

KRISHNAN: The seeds for the current conflict were planted on August 23, when a Hindu leader, Laxmananda Saraswati, and four others were killed in the district of Kandhamal in Orissa after 20 to 30 gunmen barged into a Hindu school and began shooting. At the heart of the violence is anger among rightwing Hindu groups such as the Vishwa Hindu Parishad and the Bajrang Dal over the issue of conversions to Christianity, especially among members of the Dalit and other "untouchable" classes. Vinod Bansal a spokesperson for the Vishwa Hindu Parishad says his organisation was not responsible for the violence but warned that it will escalate unless conversions stopped.

BANSAL: (We) had nothing to do with this violence. This violence is only a reaction of the community, there and then, to do with this large scale conversion, and the atrocities being imposed by these Christian missionaries. The violence can end only by apprehending the persons responsible in India. Unless you stop conversions in India, then this violence will recur in future also. Because this totally destabilise the country's national security, and the emotions of the countrymen.

KRISHNAN: In Orissa, fearful Christians have been forced to reconvert back to Hinduism to save themselves from being killed by the mobs, who have destroyed hundreds of churches and homes. Police said the violence in Karnataka was led by the right-wing Hindu Bajrang Dal organisation, and that attackers on motorcycles had gone to each church during prayers, sending worshippers fleeing for their lives. Father Babu Joseph of the Catholic Bishops Conference of India says the magnitude of violence this time was huge. He refused to name the outfits involved but said the Hindu groups were creating social unrest.

JOSEPH: This time the magnitude is much more than ever before. Particularly in Orissa, for about three weeks it has been going on and on, and nearly 50,000 people have lost their homes, and institutions have been destroyed, and unfortunately it has now also spread to Karnataka, particularly this area, where a lot of Christian population is there. The most unfortunate part is that some organisations representing, or allegedly representing Hindu community, are taking the law in their hands and trying to create social disturbances by targeting Christian community and Christian institutions.

KRISHNAN: Orissa has historically been a tinderbox of Hindu-Christian tensions that has often seen clashes between the two communities. In January 1999, Australian missionary Graham Staines and his two young sons were killed when a mob set fire to the vehicle in which they were sleeping outside a church in Manoharpur, a tribal village in the Keonjhar district. Hindus account for 83 percent of India's more than 1 billion population, while Christians make up 2.4 percent. The fresh round of violence has led many in the Christian community to fear for their calm.

Murali Krishnan in New Delhi for Connect Asia.


 Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.  (Title is link to article and video.)
The Hindu
Unrest will only impede development: Buddhadeb
Marcus Dam
Friday, Jan 23, 2009 

KOLKATA: “Lawlessness and unrest which some political parties are trying to incite in the State will only impede development and generation of employment opportunities. It is time to create jobs now; we have got to move ahead, there is no way back,” West Bengal Chief Minister Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee said in Burdwan on Thursday.

Reiterating the need for greater industrialisation that will create additional jobs as well as for consolidating the gains achieved in the agricultural sector, he regretted that the Opposition in the State is trying to reverse the logic of all social development “from village to town, from agriculture to industry.”

“What sort of an Opposition are they, who neither understand the needs of the people nor the requirements of the country?” he asked.

Mr. Bhattacharjee was addressing the open session of the four-day 34th State conference of the Paschim Banga Pradeshik Krishak Sabha (the West Bengal unit of the peasants’ wing of the Communist Party of India [Marxist]).

The Chief Minister cautioned against the divisive forces that were at work in different parts of the State as well as those of communalism like the “Bharatiya Janata Party that is trying to rear its head like a cobra, thus imperilling the country.” Neither did he spare the Manmohan Singh government for its policies “which have resulted in spiralling costs of essential commodities” and its failure in the agricultural front “resulting in thousands of farmers, unable to cope with the distress, committing suicide.”

The global economic crisis was a reminder that “capitalism is not the solution to all problems.” But will “Barack Obama, who has now entered the White House and is the new U.S. President ever be able to admit so?” Mr. Bhattacharjee asked.

On industrialisation in the State, he said it is not a question of “the Trinamool Congress and we being at odds [on the issue]” but that of “the future of thousands of our youths. How can jobs be generated without more industries? That is why we are repeatedly telling the Opposition not to take the path of confrontation,” Mr. Bhattacharjee said.

Despite the State’s success in the agricultural sector, “there is need to raise productivity to higher levels. But what is also imperative to ensure 100 days of work under the National Rural Employment Guarantee Act for the entire rural population, more self-help women groups and school education for all children “for which the panchayats and the government will have to work together.”


 Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.  (Title is link to article and video.)

Punjab unrest: Kashmir’s Amarnath pilgrimage deferred (

May 26th, 2009 - 8:07 pm ICT by IANS 

Srinagar, May 26 (IANS) The annual pilgrimage to the Himalayan cave shrine in Kashmir that was to begin June 7 has been postponed by a week due to the violent unrest in neighbouring Punjab and also because of heavy snowfall on the mountainous track to the temple, an official said Tuesday.
The two month long pilgrimage will now start June 15 and end Aug 5 this year, said the spokesperson of the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board (SASB), which manages the Hindu pilgrimage.

The decision to reschedule the pilgrimage came as situation in Punjab worsened following violence Monday over the killing of a religious leader in Vienna. Many trains were cancelled or deferred and curfew imposed at many places in the only Sikh majority state of India after violent protests there.

Hundreds of thousands of Hindus from all over India visit the cave shrine situated at an altitude of 4,175 meters.

The temple board official noted that the law and order situation in Punjab, particularly in regard to the mobilisation of free kitchens, has been an “unforeseen factor” for the deferment of the pilgrimage “particularly as dozens of trains have been cancelled or deferred”.

The track to the high altitude Amarnath shrine, which houses the ice stalagmite, an icon of Hindu lord Shiva, remains covered under snow, the official said.

Governor N.N. Vohra, who heads the temple trust, undertook an aerial survey Sunday to assess the situation on the two routes to the cave shrine and at the base camps.

Before the postponement decision was taken, board officials got inputs from concerned agencies about the status of track clearance on both the axis of Pahalgam and Baltal, said the spokesperson.

“Intermittent rains and fresh snowfall on the ridges, especially in the areas adjoining the holy cave, Panchtarni, Sheshnag and Mahagunas, has retarded the pace of snow melting this year,” the spokesperson said.

“Keeping in view an on-the-ground assessment of all the above aspects, the board has been left with no choice except to reschedule the yatra from June 7 to June 15.”

The SASB was at the centre of the Amarnath land row, which saw Hindu-majority Jammu ranged against the Muslim-dominated Kashmir Valley last year, over the allotment of forest land to the temple trust.


Title: Re: While nobody is looking - UNREST in INDIA
Post by: S.M.A. on June 14, 2009, 22:21:06
Perhaps this belongs in the "India superthread" (,39917.105.html)?

ETA: Thanks to the mods for adding this to the India superthread.
Title: India launches 1st nuclear submarine
Post by: S.M.A. on July 26, 2009, 12:55:27
Another update:


  NEW DELHI — India launched its first nuclear-powered submarine on Sunday, officials said, underlining the military advances made by the rapidly developing nation.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh called it a "historic milestone in the country's defence preparedness" as the 6,000-tonne INS Arihant (Destroyer of Enemies) was named in the southern city of Visakhapatnam.

The submarine, the first of five planned, is powered by an 85-megawatt nuclear reactor and can reach 44 kilometres an hour (24 knots) underwater, according to defence officials.

It will be armed with torpedoes and ballistic missiles, and carry a crew of 95 men.

"We don't have any aggressive designs nor do we seek to threaten anyone," the Press Trust of India quoted Singh as saying at the launch.

"We seek an external environment in our region and beyond that is conducive to our peaceful development and protection of our value systems."

India is now part of an exclusive group of nations -- including China, France, the United States, Britain and Russia -- which own nuclear-powered submarines.

The vessel will undergo two years of sea trials in the Bay of Bengal before being commissioned for full service, according to PTI.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: NFLD Sapper on July 26, 2009, 14:07:27
BTW she is a copy of the Russian Charlie Class Subs.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on July 31, 2009, 12:10:44
Saw these today on Financial Times site, thought they dove-tail with this thread:

India plans to build 100 warships
By James Lamont in New Delhi and Varun Sood in Mumbai

Published: July 30 2009 19:28 | Last updated: July 30 2009 19:28

India has plans to add about 100 warships to its navy over the next decade as it seeks to modernise its armed forces, and develop its low-cost shipbuilding capabilities.

Captain Alok Bhatnagar, director of naval plans at India's ministry of defence, said on Thursday that 32 warships and submarines were under construction in the country's shipyards. Work on 75 more ships, including aircraft carriers, destroyers, frigates and amphibious vessels, would begin over 10 years.

New Delhi is sensitive to lagging behind Beijing's naval might in the region. China has three times the number of combat vessels as India and five times the personnel. Officials are wary of port developments in neighbouring Pakistan and Sri Lanka that offer Chinese warships anchorages and potentially greater control of the Indian Ocean and Arabian Sea.

However, India has one of the fastest growing navies in the world. Its fleet of about 120 vessels is the fifth largest. At the weekend, it launched a locally built nuclear-powered submarine, based on a Russian design, to join only a few countries with the technical prowess to produce such a war machine.

Speaking at a seminar on naval self-reliance in New Delhi, Capt Bhatnagar said it was a "strategic necessity" for India to develop its own naval shipyard capabilities to avoid "being held hostage to foreign countries in a crisis situation".

Current strength of the Indian navy 
Aircraft carriers 1
Destroyers 8
Frigates 13
Corvettes 24
Minesweepers 14
Landing ships 10
Missile boats 2
Fleet Auxillary ships 8
Submarines 16
Research ships 9
Seaward Defence Forces 13
Offshore patrol vessels 6  
Since the end of British rule 62 years ago, India has relied heavily on Russia to supply its fleet. Capt Bhatnagar identified its maritime priorities as energy security, protecting sea lanes, combating Islamic fundamentalism and responding to China's aggressive modernisation plans.
"China is developing its navy at a great rate. Its ambitions in the Indian Ocean are quite clear."

Admiral Sureesh Mehta, chief of naval staff, said the navy would spend more than Rs200bn ($4bn, €3bn, £2.5bn) a year on new capabilities, with about 60 per cent devoted to acquisitions of naval hardware. He stressed the need to develop the indigenous defence industry with a view to becoming an exporter of technology to Middle East and south-east Asian countries. He advocated the creation of a business framework that encouraged international defence companies to "set up shop" in locally-based shipyards.

India has partnered Italy's Fincantieri in the design of the aircraft carrier, and Thales, the French defence company, to build six Scorpene submarines in Mumbai. Larsen & Toubro, the listed Indian engineering company, is building a Rupees 30bn shipyard near Chennai and supplies weapons and steering systems.

A Mumbai-based defence contractor said the government was considering raising the foreign direct investment cap in the defence industry to 49 per cent from 26 per cent.


US agrees sales of weapons to India
By James Lamont in New Delhi

Published: July 20 2009 09:40 | Last updated: July 20 2009 22:34

Hillary Clinton on Monday agreed a keenly awaited deal allowing the sale of sophisticated US defence technology to India in a sign of deepening ties between two of the world's largest democracies.

The agreement, which came alongside another deal to boost US co-operation in New Delhi's ambitious space programme, was made as the US secretary of state ended a five-day visit to India in which she demonstrated a firm resolve to support Asia's third largest economy as a global power.

The so-called "end-use monitoring" pact allows Washington to check up on sophisticated weapons systems that it will sell to New Delhi while the space co-operation agreement paves the way for US technology to be used in India's satellites.

A civil nuclear deal, agreed with the former Bush administration, transformed the ties between the two countries, which had a history of tension during the Cold War.

In a move that will advance this deal, Mrs Clinton said she had discussed with Manmohan Singh, India's prime minister, sites where US power companies would build nuclear power plants to help the fast growing nation overcome an energy deficit. She encouraged India to proceed with legislation governing nuclear power that would free billions of dollars of investment and transform the lives of India's 1.2bn people.
Mrs Clinton did her best to dispel concerns that India has slipped down the priority list of the administration of US president Barack Obama, as it grapples with the global economic downturn and engages with China.

In a press conference on Monday night, Mrs Clinton emphasised the democratic traditions shared by the US and India, saying they were the foundations of one of the strongest international partnerships. She said she was seeking "a significant expansion of our bilateral relationship", calling the common ground of democratic freedoms "a much stronger base than any [other] in the world".

"We believe co-operation between our two countries will be a driver of progress in the 21st century. We will work not just to maintain our relations but to broaden and deepen them," she said.

In her visit, Mrs Clinton had identified combating the threat of terrorism as her top priority. But she was careful to draw to New Delhi's attention her view that Pakistan, India's arch rival, had stiffened its resolve over the past six months to confront extremism.

"I have seen a real commitment on the part of the Pakistani government to tackle terrorism. They are taking on the extremists that threatened them," she said at an address at Delhi university.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on August 12, 2009, 12:28:23
Another update:



India Not Trying To Match Chinese Force: Navy Chief
By vivek raghuvanshi
Published: 11 Aug 2009 11:30

NEW DELHI - Within a fortnight of launching an indigenous nuclear submarine, the chief of the Indian Navy, Adm. Sureesh Mehta, has said that India does not have the capability nor the intention to match China's military strength.

The launch of the homemade Advance Technology Vehicle and the acquisition of a Russian-made nuclear submarine have been read by defense analysts here as a move to counter the growing strength of the Chinese Navy, including nuclear submarines.

"In military terms, both conventional and nonconventional, we neither have the capability nor the intention to match China, force for force. These are indeed sobering thoughts and therefore our strategy to deal with China would need to be in consonance with these realities," Mehta said, delivering an address Aug. 11 on National Security Challenges organized by the National Maritime Foundation.

Mehta said, "Common sense dictates that cooperation with China would be preferable to competition or conflict, as it would be foolhardy to compare India and China as equals."

The latest report of the Indian Defence Ministry issued in early July says China's military modernization needs to be "monitored carefully" for implications to Indian security.

India has already begun raising infrastructure along its border with China and is building new roads. Special troops are being raised for deployment along the Chinese border and tenders have been floated to buy ultra light 155mm guns and a variety of helicopters.

In his address, Mehta spoke of increasing defense spending and said, "Let alone bridging the gap between us and our potential adversaries [China], without a substantial increase, the gap may widen further and dilute our operational edge."
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 21, 2009, 16:08:22
As for the Air Force:

Trials begin on India jets order
Six of the world's top fighter aircraft makers have begun trials in India to compete for a $10bn order.

The Indian air force is planning to buy 126 new combat planes to replace its ageing Soviet-built aircraft in one of the world's most lucrative contracts.

For the first time, the Americans are among the contenders.

Senior air force pilots are carrying out test flights on two American-built F-18 Super Hornets, one of the world's most advanced combat planes.

For 45 minutes the aircraft were put through tactical manoeuvres in a facility in the southern city of Bangalore earlier this week.

The aircraft will then be tested in the Rajasthan desert, to see how it performs in the heat and also in high altitude, in the Himalayan region of Ladakh.

The F-18 is one of two American planes which are hoping to win the lucrative contract.

Market opportunity

Its manufacturer, Boeing, is upbeat about its prospects, said the company's country head, Vivek Lall.

"As India looks to get more strategic platforms in its inventory, modernise its armed forces, we see a market opportunity of $31bn over 10 years and the pie is frankly growing for more players to compete," he said.

"We are really fortunate that we have an opportunity to compete and showcase our product."

Boeing is going head to head with it's US rival Lockheed Martin, which is offering the F-16, as well as France's Rafale, the Swedish-built Gripen, Russia's MiG-35 and the Eurofighter Typhoon.

The tests are expected to last eight months after which an order will be placed for 126 planes of which 108 will be built locally.

Vivek Lall of Boeing says his company is ready to co-produce the F-18 in India [emphasis added.]

"A transfer of technology is part of the requirement which is something we will comply with...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on September 22, 2009, 18:24:40
A "second" Stealth Destroyer?

India Launches 2nd Stealthy Destroyer
By vivek raghuvanshi
Published: 21 Sep 2009 14:00 

NEW DELHI - The Indian Navy has launched the second of its three stealthy Project-15-A, or Kolkata-class, destroyers. The INS Kochi, launched Sept. 18, is expected to be delivered in May 2011 for induction into active service.

Built by Mazagon Dock, the state-owned shipyard, the Project-15-A destroyers will be fitted with the supersonic BrahMos cruise missile and long-range surface-to-air missiles.

The Kochi was launched via a pontoon-assisted launch procedure, with aerial support from two multirole helicopters, a senior Defence Ministry official said, the first time such a method has been used for a warship launched in India. Russian experts were on hand to assist with the pontoon launch, which helps heavier vessels avoid slipway constraints.

The Kochi will be equipped with a multifunction radar system for acquiring data on surface and air targets, the Defence Ministry official said, and four AK-630 rapid-fire guns and a medium-range gun for closer targets. The destroyer will also have indigenously developed twin-tube torpedo launchers and anti-submarine rocket launchers, and Humsa sonar, developed by the state owned Naval Physical Oceanographic Laboratory.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on September 22, 2009, 18:49:18
More, here (, including this picture:


Can a sailor tell me why this is "stealthy?" Is it the right ship?

I thought a stealth warship was supposed to look more like this:

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on September 25, 2009, 19:48:13
A practical move on India's part- that way they don't have to worry about being dependent anymore on a foreign supplier of carrier-borne aircraft like Russia, the UK or the US.

Indian Built Fighters On Indian Built Carriers

September 23, 2009: The Indian Navy is buying six of the new LCA (Light Combat Aircraft, or "Tejas") fighters to fly from the new carriers they will enter service in the next five years. This is an experiment to see how the LCA will do as a carrier aircraft. The navy has already bought navalized MiG-29s for these carriers. The navy LCAs will also be navalized (mainly stronger landing gear, a tail hook and different cockpit electronics.) The MiG-29K weighs 21 tons (16 percent weapons), while the navalized LCA weighs 13 tons, 34 percent of that weapons. The MiG-29 is a better fighter, but the LCA carries a little more (4 versus 3.5 tons) armament, making it a cheaper way to attack ships or land targets with missiles and bombs. A land based carrier deck is being built, so the naval LCA can begin tests, and training pilots, within two years.

The LCA is only now  preparing to enter mass production. Five prototypes already exist, and another ten pre-production models will be built next year. By 2012, mass production (at least 20 aircraft a year) is to begin, no matter what. Or at least that's the plan. For over two decades, India has been trying to design, develop and manufacture its own "lightweight fighter." India calls it the LCA, and the project has been a major disaster.

The U.S. F-16 is probably the premier "lightweight fighter" in service, and entered wide service about the time India began thinking about creating their own. Both the F-16 (at least the earlier models), and the LCA, weigh about 12-13 tons. But the F-16 is a high performance aircraft, with a proven combat record, while the LCA is sort of an improved Mirage/MiG-21 type design. Not too shabby, and cheap (about half the cost of an F-16). Also, for all this time, money and grief, India has made its aviation industry a bit more capable and mature.

When work began in the mid-1980s, it was believed that the aircraft would be ready for flight testing by 1990. A long list of technical delays resulted in that first flight not taking place until 2001. Corners had to be cut to make this happen, for the LCA was originally designed to use the Indian built Kaveri engine.

For a jet fighter, the engine is the most complex part of the aircraft, and the Kaveri has had its share of setbacks. Fortunately, there was an American engine, the GE 404, that fit the LCA, and could be used as a stop-gap. The Kaveri engine is not expected to be ready for flight tests until later this year, or thereabouts. The American engine has been used in the meantime.

For all this, India only plans to buy 200-300 LCAs, mainly to replace its aging MiG-21s, plus more if the navy finds the LCA works on carriers. Export prospects are dim, given all the competition out there (especially for cheap, second-hand F-16s). The delays have led the air force to look around for a hundred or so new aircraft (or even used F-16s) to fill the gap between elderly MiG-21s falling apart, and the arrival of the new LCAs. However, two decades down the road, the replacement for the LCA will probably be a more competitive, and timely, aircraft.

The LCA was not the first attempt to produce an Indian jet fighter. The HF-24 was an earlier attempt at developing a modern fighter. Designed by Kurt Tank (who also designed the FW-190 and Ta-152), the HF-24 was a failure because India could not develop a powerful enough engine. Thus the 147 HF-24s built, served from the 1960s, to the 1980s, as a ground attack aircraft. (
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on October 04, 2009, 03:12:55
Another update, but one that deals with the Admiral Gorshkov's (future INS Vikramaditya?) possible air group:

India to buy more MiG-29Ks

NEW DELHI: Decks have now been cleared for India to order another batch of MiG-29Ks after the specially-designed maritime fighters underwent successful flight-deck trials from Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov in the Barents Sea on September 28-29.

Defence ministry sources said the fresh order for 29 more MiG-29Ks from Russia for around Rs 5,380 crore (around $1.12 billion) will "soon'' be sent to the Cabinet Committee of Security for the final approval.

These jets will be in addition to 16 MiG-29Ks already contracted through the initial $1.5-billion Admiral Gorshkov package deal, which earmarked $974 million for the aircraft carrier's refit and the rest for the fighters, inked in January 2004.

While the military asymmetry with China is quite stark, aircraft carrier operations is one particular arena in which India is ahead of its much larger neighbour.

Grappling it may be with only 11 Sea Harrier jump-jets now, India's solitary aircraft carrier, the 28,000-tonne INS Viraat, has just undergone an 18-month life extension refit to ensure it can run smoothly for another five years.

China, in contrast, does not have an aircraft carrier. But it's furiously working to build them, apart from refurbishing the former Soviet Kuznetsov-class carrier Varyag and seeking to buy Su-33 carrier-borne fighters from Russia.

India, of course, will get the fully-refurbished Gorshkov only by early-2013, with New Delhi and Moscow likely to agree to a revised refit cost of around $2.6 billion. The first four of the contracted 16 MiG-29Ks, however, will touch down in India in October-November this year.

Though the fresh order for 29 more MiG-29Ks was cleared by Defence Acquisitions Council, chaired by defence minister A K Antony, quite some time ago, it was hanging fire since the fighters developed for India were still to be tested for take-offs and landings on an aircraft carrier.

"India wanted the MiG-29Ks to be proven in carrier-deck operations before inking the follow-on order for 29 more was critical. Now, only a few weapon trials of MiG-29Ks are left,'' said a source.

MiG-29Ks will operate from both 44,570-tonne Gorshkov -- rechristened INS Vikramaditya after India has already paid $602 million for its refit -- as well as the 40,000-tonne indigenous aircraft carrier being built at the Cochin Shipyard, which should roll out by 2014-2015.

Armed with eight types of air-to-air missiles, including extended range BVR (beyond visual range) missiles, as well as 25 air-to-surface weapons for land-attack missions, the MiG-29Ks will provide the Navy with a lethal punch on the high seas.

The jets will also be capable of mid-air refuelling from IL-78 tankers as well as other MiG-29Ks under `buddy-tanking'. While 12 of the first 16 fighters will be the single-seat `K' variants, the other four will be twin-seater `KUB' trainer versions. Similarly, four of the next 29 jets will be `KUB' trainer versions.

To prepare for MiG-29Ks, 10 Indian naval pilots have already undergone training on them, even as shore-based training facilities have been established at INS Hansa in Goa.

Moreover, some naval pilots have also trained on the MiG-29s flown by IAF, while a few others have done courses in the US on combat manoeuvres undertaken from aircraft carriers under a $26 million agreement.

All this is needed since Indian naval pilots do not have the experience of `conventional' fighters like MiG-29Ks, which land on ship decks with arrestor wires. The `unconventional' Sea Harrier jump-jets in use land vertically on INS Viraat.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on October 07, 2009, 10:50:59
Not that surprising.

India to Put Upgraded MiG-29s Near Pakistan Border
By vivek raghuvanshi
Published: 6 Oct 2009 12:42 

NEW DELHI - The Indian Air Force has decided to station its upgraded MiG-29 aircraft close to the Pakistan border.

The first lot of the 62 upgraded Russian-built aircraft will be deployed at Adampur air base in the border state of Punjab, a Defence Ministry official said.

The first six MiG-29s will be delivered by mid-2010 following upgrades in Russia, with the remaining aircraft to follow by 2013, the official said.

Under an $850 million contract signed with Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG in early 2008, the 62 MiGs are being upgraded from aerial interceptor and air dominance aircraft to fighter-bombers capable of striking mobile and stationary targets on the ground and at sea, in all weather conditions, with high-precision weapons.

Upgrades to the MiG-29s will include multifunctional Zhuk-ME radar, and new weapon control and avionics systems. The aircraft also will be capable of beyond-visual-range combat, armed with new-generation air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles, and smart aerial bombs.

Additionally, the Air Force's remaining MiG-29 fleet will be retrofitted at the service's repair depot at Nashik, under transfer of technology from Russia, extending their service life to 40 years and turning the air-superiority fighters into more lethal multi-role jets.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on October 12, 2009, 14:39:16
Another reason for Pakistan to be wary?

India Tests Nuclear-Capable Prithvi-II Missile (
Published: 12 Oct 2009 09:21 

BHUBANESWAR, India - The Indian military successfully test-fired two short-range nuclear-capable missiles from a site in the east of the country October 12, a defense source said.

The Prithvi-II ground-to-ground missiles were fired from a test range in Chandipur-on-sea in Orissa state, a source at the Defence Research and Development Organization said.

The 8.5-meter (28-foot) Prithvi-II missile has a range of 150-350 kilometers (90-220 miles) and can carry a one-ton conventional or nuclear payload.
The domestically developed and produced weapon was last tested April 15.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on October 15, 2009, 15:10:42
This is reportedly the fourth installment of Cope India:

U.S. Airmen Tackle Cope India (

October 14, 2009
Air Force Print News|by Capt. Genieve David

HICKAM AIR FORCE BASE, Hawaii - Members of the U.S. and Indian air forces will train together during exercise Cope India through 24 at Air Force Station Agra in Uttar Predesh, India.

This year's Cope India will be an airlift exercise that focuses on the humanitarian assistance and disaster relief mission.

More than 150 American Airmen, along with four C-130 Hercules aircraft, one C-17 Globemaster III, will join Indian air force Airmen and one IL-76 Gajraj, four AN-32 Sutlejes, two MI-17 Prataps, and one Chetak Alouette III for the exercise.

"The U.S. Air Force looks forward to this opportunity to work with the Indian air force," said Raymond Bundschuh, the 13th Air Force lead planner for the exercise. "Exercises like Cope India strengthen solid military-to-military relationships with our air forces in the region as we train together."

Cope India participants will exchange airlift, airland and airdrop delivery techniques, participate in aeromedical and disaster management exercises, conduct cooperative flight operations, to include aircraft generation and recovery, low-level navigation, tactical airdrop, air-land missions, and conduct subject-matter-expert exchanges in the operations, maintenance and rigging disciplines.

This exercise continues to strengthen the bond between the U.S. and Indian air forces, and will be the fourth installment of Cope India.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on October 23, 2009, 17:23:04
Looking ahead:

Hypersonic Weapons and Rockets
India and Russia have agreed to develop and induct a new hypersonic version of their joint venture 174 miles-range BrahMos cruise missile by 2015.
The new missile will be known as ‘BrahMos-2’ and will have a speed of over 6 Mach (around 3,600 miles per hour) with a striking-range of 174 miles.

NASA Hypersonic Project

NASA has selected a Williams International high-speed turbojet as the turbine element of its Turbine Based Combined Cycle (TBCC) engine test rig, which will be used to evaluate technologies for potential future two-stage to orbit launcher concepts.

The TBCC is designed to integrate a turbine and ramjet/scramjet into a unified propulsion system that could be used to power the first-stage of a two-stage launch vehicle from a standing start on a runway to speeds in excess of Mach 7. The concept also is being evaluated by Lockheed Martin and Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne as the ongoing Mode Transition (MoTr) program, which aims to fill the void left by the DARPA HTV-3X/Blackswift hypersonic demonstrator canceled in 2008. Unlike the NASA effort, MoTr is aimed at a propulsion system for potential high-speed strike/reconnaissance vehicles, and will include a running scramjet.

Blackbird Replacement?

Pratt & Whitney Co.'s rocket-motor division has been hired to work on a prototype for a combo jet turbine-ramjet propulsion system capable of moving a low-orbit military vehicle at hypersonic speeds.

Aerospace and defense giant Lockheed Martin Corp. signed a 10-month contract with Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne for preliminary design of a high speed accelerator for a turbine-based combined-cycle propulsion system, which could support flight up to Mach 6 -- six times the speed of sound.

Pratt said such a vehicle could be used for strike and reconnaissance missions. A vehicle such as this sounds like a replacement for the old Blackbird recon plane
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on January 12, 2010, 16:20:23
India continues to increase its capabilities:

India Developing 'Kill Vehicle' to Knock Enemy Satellites Out of the Sky
By Clay Dillow Posted 01.11.2010 at 5:49 pm
Beware, enemies of India: Star Wars are back in fashion. With perennial (and nuclear armed) foe Pakistan always teetering on the brink of political collapse and neighboring regional superpower China taking greater strides into space technology, India has announced that it is developing an exo-atmospheric "kill vehicle" that will knock enemy satellites out of orbit.

The program was proudly announced as part of India's ballistic missile defense program, a division of India's Ministry of Defense. However, in a briefing last week defense officials admitted lots of work on the project is yet to be done. Like, almost all of it. The kill vehicle (read: missile of some kind) will be guided by a laser, which will lock onto the offending satellite and keep the kill vehicle on a solid interception course. Neither the laser nor the kill vehicle actually exists yet, but be forewarned: India will put a dent in your space capabilities at a time and place as yet undetermined.

Of course, India isn't the first state to dabble in space-based defenses or satellite-slaying technologies. Ronald Reagan's Strategic Defense Initiative -- the now infamous "Star Wars" -- proposed to arm a series of ground- and space-based stations with interceptor missiles (for defensive purposes only, of course). In 2007 China brazenly launched a ground-based missile into the atmosphere to demonstrate its ability to destroy satellites, creating a mess of orbital debris when it blew apart an aging weather satellite. The U.S. also used a ship-based missile to incinerate one of its own spy satellites in 2008, as its decaying orbit was threatening to send it crashing down to Earth with toxic materials on board.

So exactly whose satellites might India be protecting herself from? Pakistan, India's most reliable nemesis, isn't exactly running a robust space program. More likely the world's largest democracy is a bit wary of the world's largest military-minded single-party ruled "republic" right across the Himalayan range. Whatever the reasoning, putting weapons in space has never been a popular topic in the international community; we likely haven't heard the last word on this.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on January 28, 2010, 11:56:34
More astronauts:

India plans 1st manned space flight for 2016

India has announced plans to put two astronauts into Earth orbit in 2016, which would make it the fourth country to put a manned mission to space.

The India Space Research Organization is seeking 124 billion rupees ($2.8 billion Cdn) for the seven-day mission.

"We are preparing for the manned space flight," ISRO chairman K. Radhakrishnan told reporters.

"We will design and develop the space module for the manned mission in the next four years."

ISRO spokesman S. Satish told The Associated Press that the government has already provided about four billion rupees ($92 million Cdn) for initial research on the mission.

ISRO said it will soon begin training of its astronauts for the space flight at a new facility in Bangalore.

Only Russia, the U.S. and China have their own independent human space-flight programs. The European Union, Iran and Japan have all announced plans for human space flight in the 2020s.

India's first unmanned mission to the moon, Chandrayaan-1, was launched in October 2008, and its instruments were used to find water in the lunar soil.

Chandrayaan-1 put India in an elite group of countries with mission to the moon, which includes the U.S., Russia, Japan, China and the countries of the European Space Agency.

The mission had to be abandoned in August because of a communications failure with the satellite.

In September, ISRO launched seven satellites on one rocket.

A second unmanned lunar mission, Chandrayaan-2, is scheduled for early 2013. India also has plans for a mission to Mars in 2030.

With files from The Associated Press.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on February 14, 2010, 13:18:47
Seems proposed bilateral talks with Pakistan will still go ahead in spite of a recent terror attack which killed 9 people in a bakery in the city of Pune, India:

Reuters link (

India says investigating blast, Pakistan talks on  
2 hours, 4 minutes ago

By Rituparna Bhowmik

PUNE, India (Reuters) - Security officials were investigating the possible involvement of Pakistan-based militants in a bomb blast in western India that killed nine people, but New Delhi said talks with Islamabad later this month would go ahead.

The bomb, left in a backpack at the popular German Bakery in the city of Pune on Saturday, wounded 60 and appeared to target Indian and foreign tourists.
Senior internal security sources, who declined to be named, said the focus had fallen on Pakistan-based separatist group Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT), which has been blamed for the Mumbai attacks, and a local militant group called Indian Mujahideen (IM) because both had been behind bombings in India in the past.

"As of now our line of investigation is toward the possible involvement of LeT ... a sleeper module of the Indian Mujahideen could also be involved," a senior interior security official overseeing the investigation told Reuters.

Both groups are fighting against Indian rule in Kashmir, the disputed Himalayan region.

"Nothing is ruled out, nothing is ruled in. The investigation is in progress," Home Minister Palaniappan Chidambaram said.

On Friday, India and Pakistan agreed to high-level talks in New Delhi on February 25, suspended after Pakistani militants killed 166 people during a three-day rampage through the financial capital of Mumbai in November 2008.

Any sign of Pakistani involvement in the Pune attack would worsen relations between the two nuclear rivals and further destabilize a region overshadowed by war in Afghanistan.

The main opposition Bharatiya Janata Party said India must "seriously reconsider" going ahead with the talks, but a government official said the talks were on track.

"The talks are going to go on schedule. We realize there are complexities in engaging Pakistan, but we have to see things in their entirety. And at this moment, there is no reason for the talks to not go on," the official said.


Police in Pune, about 160 km (100 miles) south of Mumbai, had been alerted to the possibility of attacks on Osho ashram and Chabad House, which had also been targeted during the Mumbai attacks, Chidambaram said.

The German Bakery restaurant, located close to a Jewish center and a religious retreat frequented by foreigners, was a soft target in an area that had been on the radar of intelligence officials, Chidambaram said, denying there was an intelligence failure.

The Pune ashram was one of the sites surveyed by David Headley, arrested in the United States last year and charged with scouting targets for the Mumbai attacks.

The Pune blast also appears similar to a wave of bombs that hit Indian cities in the year before the Mumbai attacks, killing more than 100 people. Police blamed most of those attacks on home-grown Muslim militants like the IM, but Hindu militants were also accused of masterminding some of the bombs.

"The bomb appears to have been not a sophisticated one that could have required any special training. The expertise involved could have been locally acquired," said B. Raman, director of the Chennai-based Institute For Topical Studies.

An Italian woman and an Iranian man were among those killed. The 12 foreigners injured included Iranians, Yemenis, Sudanese, Nepalis, a Taiwanese and a German, Police Commissioner Satyapal Singh told reporters.

"We are awaiting forensic and intelligence reports. It is too early to say anything now," Singh said.

Authorities have warned of renewed threats of attacks on Indian soil and stepped up security in recent months.

Airports and railway stations across the country have been put on high alert after the blast and extra security given to the South African and Indian cricket teams in India.

(Additional reporting by Bappa Majumdar and Krittivas Mukherjee; Writing by Rina Chandran; Editing by Janet Lawrence)
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on February 17, 2010, 10:25:01
Not such good news. Even discounting the speculative aspects of this piece, India has far more common interests with the West and is a regional power, so ignoring or downgrading the relationship is just stupid.

What's Obama's beef with India?
February 16, 2010 Posted by Paul at 8:11 PM

It's easy to figure out why President Obama has little use for Israel and England. Israel is the bete noir of most contemporary left-liberals and England was the colonial overlord of Kenya.

But what has Obama got against India? I'll speculate about this question in a moment, but first let's look at the relationship itself.

Jim Hoagland, the Washington Post's veteran foreign policy writer, describes it this way:

    Indians detect an air of ambivalence blowing their way from Washington. . . .Romanced by the Bush administration to balance China's inexorable rise in military and economic power, India finds itself out of sync with the Obama administration on some key issues. There is no open conflict. But neither is there the air of excitement and innovation about the U.S. relationship that I found on my last trip here 18 months ago.

    Since then, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has explicitly rejected balance-of-power politics as a relic of the past. Yet India, Japan and other Asian states fear that without a supportive U.S. hand on the scales, they will be swamped by China's growing military capabilities and its increasingly aggressive, and effective, diplomacy. . . .

    Obama's emphasis on setting an initial date for withdrawal from Afghanistan in his Dec. 1 policy speech, even as he sent additional U.S. troops, stirred doubt here about U.S. strategic patience. So have the frequent U.S. military visits to and overblown praise for Pakistan's army leadership, despite credible evidence of high-level Pakistani involvement in cross-border terrorism directed at India.

Consequently, according to Hoagland, India is now "hedging its bets":

    India has recently moved troops away from the Pakistan frontier while increasing deployments into border areas that China is claiming in pugnacious and offensive rhetoric. In a break with its past opposition to foreign bases in the region, India has secured military transit and stationing rights at an airbase in Tajikistan. And Singh's government lavishly welcomed Japan's new prime minister, Yukio Hatoyama, on a recent three-day visit that included publicity about plans for joint military maneuvers in the Indian Ocean.

    These are clear signs of Indian hedging: seeking allies for worst-case scenarios while accommodating China on economic matters. The Obama administration's failure to reaffirm clearly that India's rise is in U.S. strategic interests has contributed to this hedging. That is a mistake the president should quickly correct, in the interests of his own vision of a new world order centered on the Pacific and Indian oceans.

Why the Obama administration ambivalence? A number of possibilities come to mind. One is reflexive distrust of any nation that is close to the U.S. (don't they understand how flawed we are?). Another is reflexive dislike of any policy President Bush developed, especially a signature Bush policy.

Related to this possibility, and perhaps closer to the mark, is Obama's self-image as a great strategic thinker. Any hack American president can form a strategic alliance with a pro-American powerhouse as a means of obtaining a regional balance of power in relation to a not so pro-American emerging super-power. But, as Hoagland implies, Obama sees himself a charismatic visionary who is above traditional balance of power politics, that "relic of the past." Stated differently, Obama has shown little stomach for alliances that might vex our adversaries and potential adversaries.

There are, to be sure, less damning explanations. Obama likely sees a need to stay on Pakistan's good sde for purposes of the war on terror. But I'm pretty sure that the roots of Obama's ambivalence towards India go deeper than Pakistan, whose dispute with India has cooled considerably in recent years.

JOHN adds: A strategic alliance with India is such a no-brainer that, considering this and other data, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that a hallmark of Obama's foreign policy is perversity.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on February 25, 2010, 10:38:58
IndoPak (usual copyright disclaimer):

U.S. Sells Arms to South Asian Rivals
Washington Increases Weapons Transfers to India and Pakistan to Maintain Neutrality, Aid Industry

The Obama administration is sharply expanding American weapons transfers to both India and Pakistan, longtime rivals about to sit down for peace talks Thursday...

The U.S. has made billions of dollars in weapons deals with India, which is in the midst of a five-year, $50 billion push to modernize its military.

At the same time, American military aid to Pakistan stands to nearly double next year, allowing Islamabad to acquire more U.S.-made helicopters, night-vision goggles and other military equipment. The aid has made it easier for Pakistan to ramp up its fight against militants on the Afghan border, as the U.S. tries to convince Islamabad that its biggest security threat is within the country, not in India.

During a late January trip to Islamabad, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said the U.S. would for the first time give Pakistan a dozen surveillance drones, a longstanding Pakistani request...

Washington's relationships with the two nations are very different. India, which is wealthier and larger than its neighbor, pays for weapons purchases with its own funds. Pakistan, by contrast, uses American grants to fund most of its arms purchases. A new U.S. counterinsurgency assistance fund for Pakistan is slated to increase from $700 million in fiscal year 2010 to $1.2 billion in fiscal year 2011.

"We do straight commercial deals with India, while Pakistan effectively uses the money we give them to buy our equipment," said a U.S. official who works with the two countries. "But we think that's ultimately in our national interest because it makes the Pakistanis more capable of dealing with their homegrown terrorists."

India is one of the largest buyers of foreign-made munitions, with a long shopping list which includes warships, fighter jets, tanks and other weapons. Its defense budget is $30 billion for the fiscal year ending March 31, a 70% increase from five years ago. The country is preparing its military to deal with multiple potential threats, including conflict with Pakistan. Tensions have recently flared between India and China over territorial claims along their border. China defeated India in a short war in 1962.

"For 2010 and 2011, India could well be the most important market in the world for defense contractors looking to make foreign military sales," said Tom Captain, the vice chairman of Deloitte LLP's aerospace and defense practice.

Russia has been India's main source of military hardware for decades, supplying about 70% of equipment now in use. Moscow is working to keep that position, with talks ongoing to sell India 29 MiG-29K carrier-borne jet fighters, according to an Indian Defense Ministry spokesman.

The Obama administration is trying to persuade New Delhi to buy American jet fighters instead, a shift White House officials say would lead to closer military and political relations between India and the U.S. It would also be a bonanza for U.S. defense contractors, and has dispatched senior officials such as Mr. Gates to New Delhi to deliver the message that Washington hopes India will choose American defense firms for major purchases in the years ahead.

Shortly after a late January visit by Mr. Gates—on the same tour that took him to Islamabad—In late January, the administration signed off on India's request to purchase 145 U.S.-made howitzers, a $647 million deal.Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell said Mr. Gates's visit didn't affect the substance or timing of the howitzer purchase.

That came days after India formally expressed its intent to purchase 10 cargo transport aircraft from Boeing Co. in a deal analysts say could be worth more than $2 billion. Last year, India spent $2.1 billion on eight Boeing long-range Poseidon reconnaissance aircraft for the Indian navy.

Still in the pipeline is India's planned $10 billion purchase of 126 multirole combat aircraft for its air force. U.S. firms Boeing and Lockheed Martin Corp. are vying with Russia and European companies for that deal, which would be a near-record foreign sale for the firms. An agreement last summer allowing the U.S. to monitor the end-use of arms it sells to India is expected to facilitate such deals.

"That's the biggest deal in the world right now," said Mr. Captain. "If it goes to an American firm, that would be the final nail in the coffin in terms of India shifting its allegiance from Russia to the U.S."..

India and Pakistan hold first Kashmir peace talks since Mumbai attack

India accused Pakistani border guards of firing at one of its posts across the disputed frontier in Kashmir yesterday on the eve of the first formal peace talks between the South Asian rivals since the Mumbai attacks in November 2008.

The alleged shooting, which Pakistani officials denied took place, came after an Indian army officer and two soldiers were killed in a gun battle with suspected Islamic militants in Indian-controlled Kashmir.

The latest in a series of skirmishes on the de facto frontier is not expected to destabilise today’s talks in Delhi between Nirupama Rao, the head of the Indian Foreign Service, and Salman Bashir, her Pakistani counterpart.

The talks highlight the centrality of Kashmir in the troubled relationship between India and Pakistan. Both claim the Muslim majority region and have fought three wars over it since independence from Britain in 1947.

They also illustrate how hard it will be to make progress despite encouragement from the United States and its allies...

Letter sent to the Globe and Mail and not published:

Pakistan, the Taliban, and Kashmir?

Doug Saunders is rather confused about the geography of Pakistan and its dispute over Kashmir with India. He writes (Let's refocus: Kashmir, not Kabul, Feb. 20)
that Pakistan, with CIA help, "captured the Taliban's second-ranking Afghan leader, Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, in northern Pakistan." In fact Mullah Baradar was captured in Karachi, the country's largest city and seaport (as reported by the Globe's Paul Koring on Feb. 17),
in southern Pakistan far away from the frontier area with Afghanistan that is the Taliban's stronghold.

Mr. Saunders also writes this about Kashmir: "For India, resolution is worth a loss of face. For Pakistan, it never will be." Hardly. India will accept no resolution of the dispute that lessens the sovereignty it claims over the part of Kashmir it now holds--the largest. Such a resolution on the other hand is the only type acceptable to Pakistan, but would involve a loss of face no Indian government could endure. It is moreover simply inaccurate to claim, as Mr. Saunders does, that "The two nuclear powers came very close to resolving their Kashmir conflict in 2008." Broad talks on several matters, including Kashmir, may have been making some minor progress; there were no signs of a breakthrough on the key Kashmir question.

The essence of the dispute is that Pakistan does not accept the legitimacy of the accession of the Muslim-majority Indian princely state of Kashmir to India, rather than Pakistan, upon the two countries' independence in 1947. Whatever one may think of the merits of each country's case, it is noteworthy that India refuses to accept that a plebiscite be held in Kashmir on the territory's status--as called for by the UN Security Council in 1948.


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on March 01, 2010, 23:38:21
More on the changing state of India-US relations. If the US is determined to bypass India, there are certainly opportunities for us to move in...

Why Does the American Left Fear the Rise of India?

Our Asian ally is a kindred spirit.
February 27, 2010 - by N.M. Guariglia

The American relationship with the republic of India is heading in the wrong direction. Given recent history, where strong and positive U.S.-Indo relations were in full bloom, this is especially disconcerting. President George W. Bush’s administration, long maligned as arrogantly unilateralist, solidified a close bilateral partnership — friendship, even — with the rising South Asian power. Bush saw India as a natural ally: the world’s largest multiethnic democracy, looking at its place in the world at the turn of this century through much the same prism our own ancestors looked through in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. As Harvard historian Sugata Bose observed, the strengthening of ties between India and the United States “may turn out to be the most significant foreign policy achievement of the Bush administration.”

Under President Barack Obama, however, those ties are in moderate though steady and not insignificant decline. Since Obama’s inauguration, our relationship with India has begun to erode. To its credit, the Obama administration authorized a $2.1 billion arms sale with New Delhi last year. But there is more — there should be more — to the American-Indian friendship than signing off on a Boeing contract with the Indian defense ministry.

For instance, trends in trade are worrisome. Whereas in 2008 the United States exported $17.6 billion worth of goods to India, by 2009 that figure had dropped by more than $1 billion. Some of this is due to the recession, but consider: from 2001 through 2008, imports from India to the United States had gone up by $2 or $3 billion annually, culminating in $24 and $25.7 billion worth of goods imported in 2007 and 2008. That figure plummeted by $4.6 billion in 2009. During Bush’s tenure, protectionist economic policies were done away with. Outsourcing, that dirty word, was embraced. The United States became India’s largest investment partner; foreign direct investment in petroleum exploration, infrastructure, mining, telecommunications, and other good things accounted for much of all investment into India.

The free trade policies agreed upon by President Bush and Prime Minister Singh liberated markets and destroyed barriers in agriculture, textiles, iron, steel, coffee, tea, information technology, pharmaceuticals, and more — and as a consequence, helped develop the rise of India’s first genuine middle class in history. According to the National Council for Applied Economic Research, there are approximately 220 million “aspiring” Indians — a “consumer class” — living in households earning between $2,000 and $4,400 per year, who can now afford to buy niceties and luxuries. Some estimates have India’s middle class even larger. This was not the case fifteen or even ten years ago.

And when a caveat in this relationship deemed less beneficial to the United States arose, President Bush still kept things in long-term perspective so as not to denigrate our newfound camaraderie with India. When American food prices skyrocketed in 2008, Bush attributed it to India’s progress and implored Americans to place developments into a broader context: “Their middle class is larger than our entire population,” Bush said. “And when you start getting wealth, you start demanding better nutrition and better food. And so demand is high and that causes the price to go up.”

Today, President Obama sounds markedly different about India. He has employed populist oratory, criticizing “a tax code that says you should pay lower taxes if you create a job in Bangalore, India, than if you create one in Buffalo, New York.” Such language has increased anxieties in New Delhi. “We are already witnessing signs of protectionism in the world’s biggest economy,” the Indian external affairs minister was quoted as saying, proclaiming that “we will need to argue against this trend at the international [forums].” Just one month into Obama’s presidency, India was prepared to present its grievances with the new administration’s protectionist policies to the World Trade Organization.

The Obama-Reid-Pelosi trio eagerly canceled the highly successful H-1B visa program, which was designed to encourage U.S. companies to hire Indian IT services (as well as tens of thousands of Indian engineers at a time of talent shortages). Congress barred U.S. corporations with bailout dollars from hiring foreign workers. This sparked largely overlooked outrage across India’s polity. “This is just irrational protectionism. … It makes no economic sense at all,” said the deputy chairman of India’s Planning Commission. Opposition leaders called for boycotts of U.S. companies. “If these policies hurt Indians abroad,” said heavyweight politician Praveen Togadia, “then we have to take steps to hurt American companies in India.” In just a few short weeks, during the Bush-to-Obama transition, U.S.-Indo relations had gone from having never been better to tense and laced with rhetorical rancor.

For those of us who view India as an invaluable future ally, these are disturbing developments. Not unsurprisingly, as trade between the two countries deteriorates, so too do other arenas. Our current disregard of India is risking nothing short of causing “great damage … to the foundations underlying the geostrategic partnership” itself, in the words of National Interest columnist J. Peter Pham. When President Obama seemed to blame India over the Kashmir dispute with Pakistan, India’s national security advisor promptly said Obama was “barking up the wrong tree.”

Additionally, Secretary of State Clinton skipped a visit to New Delhi during her maiden voyage to South Asia, stoking concerns that the new administration was putting India on the back burner (opting instead to prioritize relations with an ascendant China). As former U.S. ambassador to India Robert D. Blackwill phrased it, “China today appears … to be on a substantially higher plane in U.S. diplomacy than India, which seems to have been downgraded in the administration’s calculations.” Validating this view, India was not mentioned even once in the Obama administration’s official foreign policy agenda. The world’s largest democracy, more than one billion people — ignored.

This antagonism towards New Delhi is not merely an Obama phenomenon; the American left itself has expressed its unease with a powerful India for quite some time. It was in 1998, after all, when President Bill Clinton imposed sanctions on India for conducting underground nuclear tests — treating an ally and proud democracy as if it were a rogue enemy and brutal tyranny. President Bush, on the other hand, lifted those sanctions in 2001 and signed a historic civilian nuclear agreement with India in 2006, whereby the U.S. would share nuclear reactors and fuel with Prime Minister Singh’s government.

Why is there such a disparity of views on India between conservatives and liberals in these states united? Not all members of the left, of course, hold a hostile opinion of India (Christopher Hitchens comes to mind). But by and large, the American left seems to consider India the “biggest pain in Asia,” in the words of Barbara Crossette, a writer at Foreign Policy. Crossette criticizes India for not adhering to international accords which infringe upon a democracy’s sovereign right to control its nuclear destiny, as well as climate change treaties which would destroy India’s growth — some of the very reasons American conservatives respect India. The left is wary of India for the same reasons it remains wary of Israel: both democracies are fiercely nationalistic and unapologetically defend themselves against the “downtrodden” “other,” i.e., Islamic lunatics.

The American left simply prefers to play hardball with allies than with adversaries. Recall President Carter’s handling of Iran: the allied shah was condemned as an autocrat; the enemy Khomeini, a “holy man.” For Carter, our anticommunist allies were violators of human rights first, second, and third; the Soviets, murderers of tens of millions, were benign enough for Carter to proclaim Americans had an “inordinate fear of communism.”

Contemporaneously, the left’s is a world where dictatorial Venezuela is to be apologized for, democratic Colombia economically punished; where the fascists and racists and bus-bombers in Palestine are “misunderstood” and the democrats in Israel are Nazi brownshirts incarnate. Anti-American terrorists in Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, and Lebanon are euphemized as “guerrillas,” whereas pro-American militiamen are castigated as “warlords” — and on and on it goes.

Embroiling the Indians in such amoral nonsense would threaten not only our present rapport with India, but also what could potentially become the most significant American alliance with another country this century — an alliance rooted in a commonality of values, genuine companionship and affection for one another, and solidarity against the totalitarian evils of the world. The United States should welcome India’s rise. We’re largely the reason it’s occurring.

N.M. Guariglia is a foreign policy analyst and columnist who writes on Islam and Middle Eastern geopolitics. He is a contributing editor for Family Security Matters and blogs at He can be reached at
Title: Maoist rebels kill 75 Soldiers in Eastern India
Post by: S.M.A. on April 06, 2010, 11:54:14
Associated Press link (

PATNA, India – Maoist rebels launched a series of devastating attacks Tuesday on government forces patrolling the forests of eastern India, killing at least 75 troops in the deadliest strike against the state in the 43-year insurgency.

The attack, which came amid a major Indian offensive aimed at crushing the Maoists, also known as Naxalites, fueled concerns the government is sending poorly trained forces to the front lines to battle the raging insurgency.

Indian Home Minister Palaniappan Chidambaram, the nation's top law enforcement official, said the troops were part of a joint operation involving state forces and paramilitary fighters.

"But something has gone very wrong. They seemed to have walked into a trap set by the Naxalites. Casualties are quite high and I am deeply shocked," he said.

At least 82 troops were in the patrol that had spent three or four days scouring forests in the rebel stronghold of Dantewada, in Chhattisgarh state, said R.K. Vij, the inspector general of state police.

Early Tuesday, rebels ambushed some of the troops, killing at least three of them, he said. Another 17 soldiers who went to recover the bodies were killed when their vehicle was blown up by a land mine, Vij said — although it was designed to withstand such explosives.

Rebel fighters occupying positions on nearby hilltops then began firing barrages of bullets down on the remaining troops, he said.

The bodies of 75 paramilitary troops were recovered by Tuesday afternoon in the remote and heavily forested area, he said.


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Yrys on April 06, 2010, 16:32:51
Indian Maoists Kill at Least 73 Officers (, NY Times

NEW DELHI — India’s campaign against the country’s Maoist insurgency
suffered a major setback on Tuesday when rebel fighters ambushed a
paramilitary unit on patrol in an isolated forest region, killing at least 73

The authorities described a carefully executed surprise attack in which the
Maoists opened fire as the patrol entered an area seeded with booby-trap
bombs. When officers fell to the ground to take cover from gunfire, they
detonated the explosives.

Scores of Indian soldiers killed in Maoist ambushes (, BBC News

Maoist rebels have killed at least 75 Indian soldiers in a series of attacks
on security convoys in the central state of Chhattisgarh, officials say.
A large patrol of federal paramilitary troops was ambushed at dawn by
hundreds of heavily armed insurgents in a remote part of Dantewada district.
Rescue teams were later ambushed in attacks using landmines and gunfire.
Correspondents say it is the worst attack on security forces by the rebels
since their insurgency began.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on May 01, 2010, 17:35:12
Defense News link (

NEW DELHI - Commissioning India's first homegrown stealth frigate, Indian Defence Minister A.K. Antony emphasized India's need to modernize its shipyards.

The Navy is retiring warships faster than it is commissioning them, mostly due to a lack of modern shipyards.

"We must continue with our efforts to transform and modernize our shipyards, so that they can not only meet domestic demands but also achieve the latest international standards in quality construction," Antony said at the April 29 ceremony. "We must be able to produce quality ships in a shorter time frame at competitive costs. I strongly urge all the participants of the Indian industry to give their best in developing our shipbuilding programs."

Built by Mumbai-based Mazagon Docks Ltd. at a cost of more than $500 million, INS Shivalik has advanced radars, antisubmarine sonars, and arms, including Russian Klub surface-to-surface missiles and Israeli Barak air defense systems, said an Indian Navy official. The ship also has state-of-the-art defenses against nuclear, biological and chemical attacks, the official said.

The Navy is to get 16 stealth frigates in the next 10 years, with 10 being built at home and the remaining six imported.

Two more frigates, INS Satpura and Sahvadri, are under construction in India and due to be commissioned next year. Three more are being built in Russia.

The Indian Navy already operates INS Talwar, Trishul and Tabar.

The Shivalik class will be the Navy's mainstay frigates in the first half of the 21st century.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: George Wallace on May 03, 2010, 10:03:57
Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

Canadians warned of New Delhi danger

Article Link (

CBC News

02/05/2010 9:43:02 AM

Canada has issued a travel warning for India's capital, New Delhi, saying there is a possibility of an attack soon in market areas frequented by foreigners.

The Department of Foreign Affairs warning specifically urged travellers to avoid the popular Chandni Chowk area.

"Credible and specific reporting indicates that a terrorist attack could be carried out in the following days or weeks," a notice on the department website said Saturday.

It urged Canadians to "exercise a high degree of caution, monitor their surroundings and minimize their presence in market areas of the city."

Similar advisories were issued Saturday by the U.S. Embassy and the Australian High Commission in New Delhi.

New Delhi police said they were aware of the warnings of possible attacks.

"The Delhi Police is taking appropriate measures in this regard," said police spokesman Rajan Bhagat, according to the Press Trust of India news agency. He did not elaborate.

Militants linked to Pakistan-based Islamist groups have been blamed for previous deadly attacks in the city.

With files from The Canadian Press


In some circles, it is felt that the next major conflict nations, will be a Religious War with its roots in India.  There are numerous Religious factions currently warring with each other in India, that have not made much more than page 20 news in the MSM.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on May 05, 2010, 11:04:03
Slowly, slowly, almost reminds one of...FWSAR...

India Forces Fighter Rivals To Rebid

India has proved once again that it cannot push the pedal too hard for speedy procurement of a major weapon system. It has been forced to notify vendors seeking the coveted 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) award that they will need to rebid, prompting a schedule delay that might drive up costs.

The bidders represent the industry’s biggest fighter manufacturers—MiG Russian Aircraft Corp., Dassault, Eurofighter, Saab, Boeing and Lockheed Martin.

The vendors were expected to complete flight trials early last month, giving the Indian defense ministry time to complete its bid evaluation by April 28. Contract rules called for rebidding if that deadline was missed, pushing the start of the winnowing process to April 2011.

Downselect will probably name three finalists, although no specific number has been stated or schedule given. There also is no timeframe for when a winner will be chosen. Politics is partly responsible. The downselect will be reviewed by a parliamentary committee, and the possible lobbying could extend the selection process beyond next April.

As this year’s deadline approached, the Eurofighter Typhoon was still making its final flights and the Saab Gripen, the last candidate, was not even in India. Held up by other tasks for the Swedish air force, the aircraft is not expected until late May.

Ministry officials were not commenting last week about a re-bid. But the Indian air force does not see it as a setback. Its emphasis is on being able to evaluate all the contenders...

Title: report:Terrorist groups might attack 2010 Commonwealth Games in India
Post by: S.M.A. on May 17, 2010, 18:28:44
More than one terrorist group has threatened or promised to attack people at or around the 2010 Commonwealth Games, which are to be held in India.

"Delhi put on high alert" India Times article link (
Title: India resumes production of Arjun tank
Post by: S.M.A. on May 18, 2010, 16:24:03
Defense Industry Daily link (

India Reverses Gear, Put Arjun Tank Back in Production
18-May-2010 18:16 EDT

 (May 17/10)

India’s indigenous Arjun tank project began in 1974, and originally aimed to replace the Russian T-54 and T-72 tanks which made up the bulk of that country’s armored firepower. As has often been the case in India, its DRDO government weapons development agency sought an entirely made in India solution, even though this would require major advances on a number of fronts for Indian industry. As has often been the case in India, the result was a long and checkered history filled with development delays, performance issues, mid-project specifications changes by India’s military, and the eventual purchase of both foreign substitutions within the project (now 58% of the tank’s cost) and foreign competitors from outside it (the T-90S).

The 58.5 tonne Arjun tank wasn’t fielded with the Indian Army until May 2009. In contrast, Pakistan’s much more time-limited, scope-limited, and budget conscious approach in developing and successfully fielding its T-80UD “Al-Khalid” tank is often cited by Arjun’s detractors.

The Russian T-90S will form the mainstay of its future force, despite that tank’s performance issues in hot weather. That won’t change, but the Arjun now has a clear future in India…


May 17/10: India decides that it will remove the production cap, and double production of the Arjun Mk I tank. So far, 75 of the 124 ordered Arjuns have been delivered, and the remaining 49 were to be delivered by mid-2010. Now, the production line will be extended:
“The Army has decided to place fresh order for an additional home-built 124 Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun…. [after] the success of the indigenous MBT Arjun in the recent gruelling desert trials. The project for the design and development of the MBT Arjun was approved by the Government in 1974…. After many years of trial and tribulation it has now proved its worth by its superb performance under various circumstances, such as driving cross-country over rugged sand dunes, detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets, accurately hitting targets – both stationary and moving, with pin pointed accuracy.”

Even so, the mainstay of India’s future tank fleet with remain the Russian T-90S. The government’s DRDO agency still wants a minimum of 500 Arjuns ordered, to stabilize production lines until it can develop a Mark-II version.  

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on May 29, 2010, 14:17:43
Maoists in India strike again?

Agence France Presse link (

NEW DELHI (AFP) - The death of 80 people in a train wreck blamed on Maoist saboteurs will ramp up pressure on India's government, already facing calls to deploy the military against the leftist rebels, analysts say.
Federal authorities had been severely criticised for their handling of the insurgency even before Friday's disaster when a high-speed train packed with sleeping passengers was derailed on a remote stretch of track in West Bengal.

A series of deadly attacks in recent months had forced a review of the government's counter-insurgency strategy, with Home Minister P. Chidambaram saying he would seek a firmer mandate for dealing with the rebel threat.

Until now, the government has resisted pressure to bring the army into the equation, insisting that paramilitary and state police forces were capable of flushing the Maoists out of their jungle bases.

"A cornerstone of India's democracy has been not to use its military against its own people," said Mallika Joseph, a Maoist expert from the Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies in New Delhi.

"But there is a growing clamour to get the military involved and the government is going to feel the pressure to pursue a more aggressive option," Joseph said

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on June 28, 2010, 11:10:28
Meanwhile, back at one counterinsurgency that has been essentially won--though not using US-style COIN methods (usual copyright disclaimer):

Violence Escalates in Kashmir

NEW DELHI—Indian security forces killed two protesters in Kashmir Monday as a tense standoff between security forces and separatists threatened to destabilize the Indian-held territory.

Protesters in Sopore, a town in northern Kashmir, pelted Indian security forces with stones to protest the deaths of three civilians in clashes over the weekend, a senior Kashmir policeman said.

Personnel from the paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force and regular local police retaliated by opening fire on the demonstrators, killing two people, said Farooq Ahmad, inspector-general of police in Indian-held Kashmir. "They came under tremendous pelting of stones. They had no alternative but to open fire," he said.

In Srinagar, Kashmir's largest city, hundreds of people planned to march to Sopore to show their solidarity but were blocked by security forces.

Authorities closed schools and universities for two days across the territory of 10 million people. Shops remained shuttered and cars kept off the roads. The violence was the worst in the state since 2008.

Tension has been mounting in Kashmir since a youth was killed just over two weeks ago by a tear-gas canister fired by security forces during a protest march in Srinagar's old town.

The violence has sparked debate over the Armed Forces Special Powers Act which gives the half-a-million security forces operating in India-held Kashmir immunity from prosecution [emphasis added]. A number of politicians, including Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, an ally of India's government, have called for changes to the law to stop abuses...

Critics say militant violence is at its lowest ebb since the insurgency against Indian rule began in 1989 and security personnel are using disproportionate force to put down separatist protesters armed only with stones. Just over 50 civilians were killed in clashes last year, down from 1,300 deaths in 1996 at the height of the conflict [emphasis added[, according to the South Asia Terrorism Portal, a New Delhi-based research group.

Title: US to offer F35s to Indian Navy
Post by: S.M.A. on July 01, 2010, 01:40:45
US to offer F-35 fighters to Indian Navy

New Delhi US defence major Lockheed Martin today said it will offer its latest fifth generation F-35 fighters to meet Indian Navy's requirements for carrier-based combat aircraft.

"We have received the Request for Information (RFI) from the Navy seeking information about the F-35 aircraft, which are capable of taking off from aircraft carriers. We are going to offer our aircraft to them," Lockheed Martin Vice President Orville Prins said here.

He said presentations had been given to the Indian Navy about both the 'B'and 'C' versions of the aircraft in the recent past

The B version the F-35 is a short take-off and vertical landing aircraft and the C version is an aircraft carrier-based version.

The Navy, which will acquire the under-construction Indigenous Aircraft Carrier around 2015, is likely to build another larger-size carrier and is looking to procure fighter aircraft for it.

American Boeing, Swedish Saab, European EADS and the French Dassault Aviation are also likely to offer their aircraft to the Navy.

Commenting on other projects of the company in India, Prins said the C-130 J Hercules aircraft are likely to be delivered to the IAF by February next year, two months ahead of the original schedule.

He said IAF is also planning to order six more aircraft as the construction of ground infrastructure is also going on schedule at the Hindan air base near here.

Prins said the IAF has also shown interest in the air to air refuelling tanker-version of the C-130J, which can be offered to it by the company.

The Lockheed official said that talks are on with agencies such as the National Disaster Management Authority (NDMA) for supplying another C-130J variant known as the 'weather-bird' WC-130J, which can be used to study cyclones and other weather phenomenon.

He said the aircraft might be brought to India for the next edition of Aero India show in February 2011.

Express India link (
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on July 01, 2010, 10:29:14
Very interesting.  US is really going full bore to move India as far as possible away from Russian defence orbit--offering their newest fighter (how stealty for India one wonders?) to a non-ally before it is even in US operational service.  LM also needs the bucks.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on July 14, 2010, 16:44:06
The Register link (

3-page story...

"Indian defence chiefs have approved $11bn of funds to boost the country's submarine fleet. The cash is intended to see India become the first non-Western nation to deploy long-touted, much feared "air independent propulsion" (AIP) submarine technology. According to the paper, "all the six new submarines will be equipped with air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems to boost their operational capabilities"."

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on July 14, 2010, 18:20:33
Something useful if biased from a usual suspect (long piece, usual copyright disclaimer):

Not Crushed, Merely Ignored
Tariq Ali on the recent killings in Kashmir

A Kashmiri lawyer rang me last week in an agitated state. Had I heard labout the latest tragedies in Kashmir? I had not. He was stunned. So was I when he told me in detail what had been taking place there over the last three weeks. As far as I could see, none of the British daily papers or TV news bulletins had covered the story; after I met him I rescued two emails from Kashmir informing me of the horrors from my spam box. I was truly shamed. The next day I scoured the press again. Nothing. The only story in the Guardian from the paper’s Delhi correspondent – a full half-page – was headlined: ‘Model’s death brings new claims of dark side to India’s fashion industry’. Accompanying the story was a fetching photograph of the ill-fated woman. The deaths of (at that point) 11 young men between the ages of 15 and 27, shot by Indian security forces in Kashmir, weren’t mentioned. Later I discovered that a short report had appeared in the New York Times on 28 June and one the day after in the Guardian; there has been no substantial follow-up. When it comes to reporting crimes committed by states considered friendly to the West, atrocity fatigue rapidly kicks in. A few facts have begun to percolate through, but they are likely to be read in Europe and the US as just another example of Muslims causing trouble, with the Indian security forces merely doing their duty, if in a high-handed fashion. The failure to report on the deaths in Kashmir contrasts strangely with the overheated coverage of even the most minor unrest in Tibet, leave alone Tehran.

On 11 June this year, the Indian paramilitaries known as the Central Reserve Police Force fired tear-gas canisters at demonstrators, who were themselves protesting about earlier killings. One of the canisters hit 17-year-old Tufail Ahmad Mattoo on the head. It blew out his brains. After a photograph was published in the Kashmiri press, thousands defied the police and joined his funeral procession the next day, chanting angry slogans and pledging revenge. The photograph was ignored by the mainstream Indian press and the country’s celebrity-trivia-obsessed TV channels. As I write, the Kashmiri capital, Srinagar, and several other towns are under strict military curfew. Whenever it is lifted, however briefly, young men pour out onto the streets to protest and are greeted with tear gas. In most of the province there has been an effective general strike for more than three weeks. All shops are closed.

An ugly anti-Muslim chauvinism accompanies India’s violence...

...A local NGO, the International People’s Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice in Indian-Administered Kashmir (IPTK), states that extrajudicial killings and torture are a commonplace in the valley and that Western institutions don’t even try to do anything about this for fear of damaging relations with New Delhi. The figures provided by the IPTK are startling. It claims that the Indian military occupation of Kashmir ‘between 1989-2009 has resulted in 70,000+ deaths’ [rather high, still...]... 

Public opinion in India is mute. The parties of the left prefer to avoid the subject for fear that political rivals will question their patriotism. Kashmir is never spoken of, and has never been allowed to speak...

The Zardari government is silent on the issue of Kashmir and there has been little media reaction in Pakistan to the recent killings. For the ruling elite Kashmir is just a bargaining counter. ‘Give us Afghanistan and you can have Kashmir’ is the message currently emanating from the bunker in Islamabad [rather exaggerated, I think]...

...Pakistan’s indifference also suggests that Indian allegations that recent events in Kashmir were triggered by Pakistan are baseless. Pakistan virtually dismantled the jihadi networks it had set up in Kashmir after the 1989 withdrawal of Soviet troops from Afghanistan not long after 9/11. Islamabad, high on the victory in Kabul, had stupidly assumed that they could repeat the trick in Kashmir. Those sent to infiltrate Indian Kashmir were brutal and mindless fanatics who harmed the Kashmiri case for self-determination, though some young people, tired of the patience exhibited by their elders, embraced the jihad, hoping it would bring them freedom. They were wrong...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 05, 2010, 15:27:04
Just about everything you might want to know about the Indian fighter, er, competition from Defense Industry Daily (F-35 also mentioned, might be worth reading in the context of our new fighter,39415.450.html ):

Rather than attempting to predict, DID will simply summarize the strengths and weaknesses of the listed competitors. These aircraft also group into two very different categories: single engine lightweight fighters in the $25-50 million flyaway cost range (F-16 Falcon, JAS-39 Gripen, MiG-35); and larger dual-engine mid-range fighters in the $65-120 million flyaway range (Eurofighter, F/A-18 Super Hornet, Rafale)...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 13, 2010, 09:39:08
Meanwhile back at Kashmir:

Indian Forces Face Broader Revolt in Kashmir

SRINAGAR, Kashmir — Late Sunday night, after six days on life support with a bullet in his brain, Fida Nabi, a 19-year-old high school student, was unhooked from his ventilator at a hospital here.

Mr. Nabi was the 50th person to die in Kashmir’s bloody summer of rage. He had been shot in the head, his family and witnesses said, during a protest against India’s military presence in this disputed province.

For decades, India maintained hundreds of thousands of security forces in Kashmir to fight an insurgency sponsored by Pakistan, which claims this border region, too. The insurgency has been largely vanquished. But those Indian forces are still here, and today they face a threat potentially more dangerous to the world’s largest democracy: an intifada-like popular revolt against the Indian military presence that includes not just stone-throwing young men but their sisters, mothers, uncles and grandparents.

The protests, which have erupted for a third straight summer, have led India to one of its most serious internal crises in recent memory. Not just because of their ferocity and persistence, but because they signal the failure of decades of efforts to win the assent of Kashmiris using just about any tool available: money, elections and overwhelming force.

“We need a complete revisit of what our policies in Kashmir have been,” said Amitabh Mattoo, a professor of strategic affairs at Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi and a Kashmiri Hindu. “It is not about money — you have spent huge amounts of money. It is not about fair elections. It is about reaching out to a generation of Kashmiris who think India is a huge monster represented by bunkers and security forces.”

Indeed, Kashmir’s demand for self-determination is sharper today than it has been at perhaps any other time in the region’s troubled history. It comes as — and in part because — diplomatic efforts remain frozen to resolve the dispute created more than 60 years ago with the partition of mostly Hindu India and Muslim Pakistan. Today each nation controls part of Kashmir, whose population is mostly Muslim...

Title: India and China suspend defense exchanges
Post by: S.M.A. on August 27, 2010, 18:03:55
Defense News link (


India, China Deny Visas to Each Others' Officers

Published: 27 Aug 2010 14:24       

India suspended defense exchanges with China Aug. 27 after Beijing refused a visa to an Indian army general from the Kashmir region, according to sources in the Indian defense ministry. In retaliation, New Delhi has refused visas to Chinese army officers, according to Indian foreign ministry sources.

But a senior ministry official said the incident has not affected bilateral defense ties.

Lt. Gen. B.S. Jaswal, who commands the Northern Area Command that has responsibility for the state of Jammu and Kashmir, had intended to travel to China in August for a high-level defense exchange.

"While we value our exchanges with China, there must be sensitivity to each others' concerns. Our dialogue with China on these issues is ongoing," an External Affairs Ministry spokesman said in a statement.

The Indian military has recently accelerated plans to buy arms and gear, such as BAE Systems ultralight 155mm guns, for deployment near the Chinese border.

The defense ministry has been concerned over the Chinese military buildup, a senior ministry official said.

India has stationed more multirole nuclear-capable Russian-built Su-30MKi aircraft near the border, and is improving roads and airbases in the region.

India and China fought a brief battle in 1962 over a territorial dispute
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on October 08, 2010, 11:05:48
Will be interesting to see how rapidly things move in a practical sense:

Russia Submits Draft Of FGFA Contract To India

Russia and India are moving fast on the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said Oct. 7 following the 10th Meeting of the India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Military Technical Cooperation here.

Military cooperation between the two countries is defined through an umbrella intergovernmental agreement covering 2011-2020. The document was signed during the visit of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to Russia in December of last year.

While India and Russia have signed the shareholders agreement for a joint venture company for the development and production of the Multirole Transport Aircraft (MTA), they also have agreed to expedite the joint design, development and production of the FGFA. The deal is estimated at $25 billion. The agreement envisages India will receive about 250-300 FGFAs.

“We have done the design of the plane, we have developed the time frames, the price, and the draft of the contract has already been submitted to the Indian side, which is under their consideration,” Serdyukov said.

“India hopes to get 45 Medium Transport Aircraft and also finalize the FGFA,” Indian Defense Minister A.K. Antony said, adding that “technical formalities” of the deal should be cleared within a few months.

[More on MTA: ]

The FGFA is based on the Russian Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA, which flew for the first time this January at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur facility in Siberia.

The 30-ton aircraft is priced at around $100 million each. “It would be a swing-role fighter with highly advanced avionics, giving 360-deg. situational awareness, stealth to increase survivability and smart weapons,” Indian Air Force Chief V.K. Naik said. He added the aircraft is expected to join the force by 2017 [emphasis added].

The FGFA will be capable of covering long ranges without air-to-air refueling and will have super-cruise features along with advanced mission computers, Naik added.

India's M-MRCA fighter competition has certainly dragged on:

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on October 18, 2010, 09:48:50
C-17s now (WSJ):

NEW DELHI—The U.S. is aiming to sell up to $5.8 billion of military-transport aircraft to India and secure other major deals when President Barack Obama travels to New Delhi early next month, a visit that will seek to alter the tenor of an increasingly tense commercial relationship between the world's largest democracies.

India is set to buy 10 Boeing Co. C-17 transport aircraft in the country's largest military transaction yet with the U.S., people familiar with the matter said. The exact price is still to be determined. The total value of deals agreed to during the trip could reach $10 billion to $12 billion, including pacts for India to buy military jet engines from General Electric Co., freight locomotives and reconnaissance aircraft, these people said...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on November 06, 2010, 17:55:59
How a nuclear war may begin--this obviously planted story is a nice example of diplomacy by other means: giving the Indians an indirect, but clear, warning and at the same time re-assuring the Paks that the US is on the case.  Operation “Cold Start” could lead to a very hot war indeed.  Pakistan must really rein in certain Islamist terrorists it has backed in the past (one hopes the ISI has got a memo–and is acting on it): (usual copyright disclaimer)

    NEW DELHI — Senior American military commanders have sought to press India to formally disavow an obscure military doctrine that they contend is fueling tensions between India and Pakistan and hindering the American war effort in Afghanistan.

    But with President Obama arriving in India on Saturday for a closely watched three-day visit, administration officials said they did not expect him to broach the subject of the doctrine, known informally as Cold Start. At the most, these officials predicted, Mr. Obama will quietly encourage India’s leaders to do what they can to cool tensions between these nuclear-armed neighbors.

    That would be a victory for India, which denies the very existence of Cold Start, a plan to deploy new ground forces that could strike inside Pakistan quickly in the event of a conflict. India has argued strenuously that the United States, if it wants a wide-ranging partnership of leading democracies, has to stop viewing it through the lens of Pakistan and the Afghanistan war…

    Gen. David H. Petraeus, the top commander in Afghanistan, is among those who have warned internally about the dangers of Cold Start, according to American and Indian officials. Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Richard C. Holbrooke, the special representative to Afghanistan and Pakistan, share these fears.

    The strategy calls for India to create fast-moving battle groups that could deliver a contained but sharp retaliatory ground strike inside Pakistan within three days of suffering a terrorist attack by militants based in Pakistan, yet not do enough damage to set off a nuclear confrontation [that's a hell of a gamble].

    Pakistani officials have repeatedly stressed to the United States that worries about Cold Start are at the root of their refusal to redeploy forces away from the border with India so that they can fight Islamic militants in the frontier region near Afghanistan. That point was made most recently during a visit to Washington last month by Pakistan’s army chief, Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani.

    The administration raised the issue of Cold Start last November when India’s prime minister, Manmohan Singh, visited Washington, Indian and American officials said. Indian officials told the United States that the strategy was not a government or military policy, and that India had no plans to attack Pakistan. Therefore, they added, it should have no place on Mr. Obama’s agenda in India…

    Some administration officials have argued that addressing Cold Start, developed in the aftermath of a failed attempt to mobilize troops in response to an attack on the Indian Parliament by Pakistani militants, could help break the logjam that has impeded talks between the countries.

    But India has mostly declined to discuss the topic. “We don’t know what Cold Start is,” said India’s defense secretary, Pradeep Kumar, in an interview on Thursday. “Our prime minister has said that Pakistan has nothing to fear. Pakistan can move its troops from the eastern border.”

    Indian officials and some analysts say Cold Start has taken on a nearly mythical status in the minds of Pakistani leaders, whom they suspect of inflating it as an excuse to avoid engaging militants on their own turf.

    “The Pakistanis will use everything they can to delay or drag out doing a serious reorientation of their military,” said Stephen P. Cohen, an expert on South Asia at the Brookings Institution.

    India’s response to terrorist attacks has been slow-footed. After Pakistani militants attacked Parliament in 2001, India’s ponderous strike forces, most of them based in the center of the country, took weeks to reach the border. By then Western diplomats had swooped in, and Pakistan made conciliatory statements, deflating Indian hopes of striking a punitive blow.

    The military began devising a plan to respond to future attacks. The response would have to be swift to avoid the traffic jam of international diplomacy, but also carefully calibrated — shallow enough to be punitive and embarrassing, but not an existential threat that would provoke nuclear retaliation.

    For now, there are no signs that Cold Start is more than a theory, and analysts say there is no significant shift of new troops or equipment to the border.

    But American military officials and diplomats worry that even the existence of the strategy in any form could encourage Pakistan to make rapid improvements in its nuclear arsenal.

    When Pakistani military officials are asked to justify the huge investment in upgrading that arsenal, some respond that because Pakistan has no conventional means to deter Cold Start, nuclear weapons are its only option…


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Old Sweat on November 06, 2010, 18:35:56
This site provides a daily commentary on current affairs with emphasis on India and Pakistan. The author is an Indian national living in the US (Maryland) who, unfortunately, will not use one word if twenty will do. His insights on the region are useful, although he does tend to favour his homeland in the big picture. In the smaller picture he claims that the Indian military and political leadership is corrupt, incompetent and wimpy.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on November 08, 2010, 12:19:36
The Indo-Pak-Afghan Great Game–and the US

Two opinion pieces to suggest the complexities, starting with a typical piece of Pak paranoid fear-mongering...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on November 17, 2010, 17:29:50
Corruption? What stinking corruption? And what stinking torture?

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on November 17, 2010, 17:49:41
Corruption? What stinking corruption? And what stinking torture?


There is, indeed, corruption in India; ditto the USA - which is too far down the Transparency Index for its own good. There is, indeed, torture in India; ditto the USA - personally approved by the President of the USA just a few (a single digit few) years ago. Should we eschew trade links with America, too? None of our trading partners are perfect; some are farther from being perfect than others; are we our brother's trading partners' keepers? Can we really do enough trade with just Norway and New Zealand to stay in business?
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on November 17, 2010, 18:40:40
E.R. Campbell: India is several degrees worse than the US on both fronts.  My point is not to eschew trade ties but to point out Canadian hypocrisy in selectively and relentlessly bashing Afstan for things we just don't even talk about when lots of money is hoped to be made.  Our relations with China are now equally selective in taking supposed principles seriously.

I just want us to shut the moralizing .... up and be honest.  We do Realpolitik too.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on November 25, 2010, 18:14:54
Corruption? What stinking corruption? Part 2

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on December 04, 2010, 17:08:44
Imagine the howls here if our PM even tried to sell LAV IIIs to India--or complete reactors:

Nuclear power and fighter planes on Sarkozy’s India wish list

AP - President Nicolas Sarkozy arrived Saturday on a four-day visit to India, seeking to drum up business for French firms, with a deal expected on building nuclear plants to feed the Asian giant’s burgeoning energy needs...

Sarkozy is accompanied by his defense, foreign and finance ministers and nearly 60 CEOs of French companies. Although no defense agreements are expected during the visit, he is expected to push for French firms to win contracts to supply military hardware.
French companies are negotiating to upgrade 51 Mirage-2000 jet fighters of the Indian air force. India is also in the market to buy 126 fighter jets, a deal worth $11 billion, and nearly 200 helicopters worth another $4 billion.
According to defense experts, New Delhi is expected to spend $80 billion between 2012 and 2022 to upgrade its military.
France is also hoping to benefit from India’s decision to build nearly 20 nuclear power plants.
France is well-placed to cash in, as it has steadily supported India’s nuclear program and resisted sanctions imposed by many developed nations when India tested a nuclear weapons in 1998 [emphasis added].
French nuclear power company, Areva SA, emerged as the front-runner to set up two of six power plants in the western Indian state of Maharashtra...

Some countries and peoples understand raison d'état.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on December 21, 2010, 16:34:00
On verra:

Russia, India Link Up On Aircraft Production


NEW DELHI — India and Russia have registered a joint venture called Medium Transport Aircraft Ltd. that will develop and manufacture products with India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), according to United Aircraft Corp. President Alexei Fyodorov.

“It will be in the market in six to seven years,” Fyodorov tells Aviation Week. “We are also considering working on unmanned aerial vehicles with India. But it is still in the early stages.”

More than 25 agreements were signed between Russian and Indian companies here in the areas of life sciences, energy, navigation and information technology during the visit of Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, which runs Dec. 20-22.

India and Russia also will conclude a preliminary design contract for their joint fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) project (Aerospace DAILY, Dec. 17). The FGFA is based on the Russian Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA, which flew for the first time last January at the  Komsomolsk-on-Amur facility in Siberia. The second prototype will fly in early 2011, Fyodorov says. The third prototype will have more advanced systems.

“Once the approvals are through, we will start the actual detailed work,” HAL Chairman Ashok Nayak tells Aviation Week.

Each 30-ton aircraft is priced at around $100 million. “It would be a swing-role fighter with highly advanced avionics, giving 360-deg. situational awareness, stealth to increase survivability and smart weapons,” says P.K. Naik, Indian air force chief. The aircraft is expected to join the Indian service between 2017 and 2020 [emphasis added]...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on December 30, 2010, 16:59:34
India and US airlifters--Boeing will be esp. happy keeping the C-17 line going:

India's first C-130 heads for base in 2011

NEW DELHI, Dec. 30 (UPI) -- India's first two Lockheed Martin C-130J Super Hercules aircraft will be flown from the United States to their home base at Hindon early next year.

Lockheed Martin handed over the first C-130J to the Indian air force earlier this month as part of an order for six aircraft. The $1.2 billion U.S. Foreign Military Sale -- India's first -- was signed in late 2008 at the DefExpo exhibition in New Delhi.

It was a breakthrough at the time for Lockheed Martin into India's military transport market...

From November:

$4.1bn C-17 aircraft deal set to get bigger, 6 more coming

NEW DELHI: The biggest Indo-US defence deal in the pipeline, the $4.1-billion for 10 C-17 Globemaster-III giant strategic airlift aircraft, could get even bigger. India may well order another six C-17s after the first 10.

The impending final contract for 10 C-17s is in tune with India's aim to have swift power projection capabilities, with the region spanning from Persian Gulf to Malacca Strait being seen as the country's ''primary area of geo-strategic interest''...

The contract for 10 C-17s, with all its final costs, offsets, training packages and the like, is ''close'' to being inked now. As earlier reported by TOI, India is buying the Globemasters under US Foreign Military Sales (FMS) programme in a direct government-to-government deal. Rubbishing criticism that India should have floated a global tender for such a big contract, ACM Naik said, ''We did a comprehensive evaluation of all such available aircraft in the world. The C-17s best met our requirements [emphasis added, made sense for us too].''

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on January 08, 2011, 21:08:50
Two updates, one military and one related to population:


French carrier in India for joint naval drill
2011-01-06 17:50:00

New Delhi, Jan 6 (IANS) The French Navy's nuclear-propelled aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle will participate in a week-long joint exercise with the Indian Navy off Goa from Friday that will see the navy fielding aircraft carrier INS Viraat along with destroyers and a submarine.

Charles de Gaulle

INS Viraat

The bilateral exercise - Varuna 10 - will see destroyers, frigates, tankers and submarines from both sides participating, a navy spokesperson said.

The French Navy will be represented by ships from the French Carrier Strike Group, designated Task Force 473 and mainly based at Toulon, France.

The Task Force includes the 38,000-tonne aircraft carrier Charles De Gaulle, destroyers FNS Forbin and FNS Tourville, supply ship FNS Meuse and nuclear powered submarine FNS Amethyste.

FNS Forbin

FNS Tourville

FNS Meuse

FNS Amethyste

'Aircraft carrier Charles De Gaulle will be carrying its complement of fighter aircraft, Rafale and Super Etendard, airborne early warning aircraft E2C Hawkeye and integral helicopters,' the spokesperson said.

This will be the second time that Charles de Gaulle -- the flagship of the French Navy and the first and only nuclear-powered carrier built outside of the US Navy -- will be participating in an exercise with the Indian Navy. The warship was in India last in 2006.

Besides aircraft carrier INS Viraat, the Indian Navy will be represented by two indigenous frigates INS Godavari and INS Ganga and Shishumar class submarine INS Shalki.

INS Godavari

INS Ganga

INS Shalki

Sea Harrier fighters, fixed and rotary wing aircraft are also scheduled to participate in the exercise.

The harbour phase is scheduled from Jan 7 to 10 and the sea phase will be conducted in the Arabian sea from Jan 11 to 14.

The scope of Varuna includes the entire gamut of maritime operations ranging from aircraft carrier operations, anti-submarine warfare operations and maritime interdiction operations exercises.

The Indian and the French navies have been conducting bilateral naval exercises since May 1993.

However, it was from 2001 that bilateral exercise was been called 'Varuna'.

Till date, eleven such exercises have been conducted. The last exercise was conducted off Brest in France June 27-July 4 last year to coincide with the overseas deployment of Indian Navy ships to the Mediterranean and the Atlantic.

The bilateral exercise aims at deriving mutual benefit from the experiences of the two navies.

'The understanding and confidence gained through such exercises has helped cooperation in anti-piracy operations and humanitarian assistance and disaster relief operations. This exercise will further strengthen the cooperation and coordination,' the spokesperson said.

Most of the world's energy carriers transit through the Indian Ocean region. Due to increasing piracy and maritime terrorism, navies of several countries have been cooperating with each other to strengthen maritime security in the region.

'Naval cooperation between India and the France epitomises this and is in the long term interests of both countries. Both navies have, over the years, undertaken bilateral activities such as exercises at sea, training visits and courses, information exchange, and technical cooperation. The navies have significant convergence of interests, especially in maritime security in this region,' said the navy spokesperson.

link (

This second one dealing with population is not that surprising considering previous discussions related to the effect of China's "one-child policy" and Thucydides' posts about China "becoming the first gay superpower since Sparta" (,83554.msg986690.html#msg986690).  ;D

Indians to outnumber Chinese in 2025: US
By Indranil Mukherjee | Agence France-Presse – 23 minutes ago

The Sydney Morning Herald … - 17 minutes ago

Indians to outnumber Chinese in 2025
ABC News - Wed, 29 Dec 3:33 PM EST
....India is on course to top China as the world's most populous country in 2025, the US Census Bureau forecast, potentially changing the dynamics between the Asian giants.

The latest Census Bureau estimates out this week, which are in line with previous studies, predicted that India would have 1.396 billion people in 2025, surpassing China, whose population growth is more modest.

China since 1980 has allowed most women to bear only one child, in a controversial policy aimed at creating a more sustainable population.

The average Chinese woman now has 1.5 children in her lifetime, compared with 2.7 children for the average Indian woman, although the so-called fertility rate has also been declining in India due to rising education and urbanization.

The demographic shift could affect the Asian powers' economies, which are now among the world's fastest.

China has enjoyed a stronger growth rate than India as young people flock to manufacturing hubs that pump out exports for the world. But China in coming years will likely face a shrinking labor force and a mass of pensioners.

The US Census Bureau forecast that the ranking of the largest countries would otherwise remain the same in the coming 15 years.

The United States -- whose population is growing more quickly than most wealthy countries, albeit at a slower rate than in recent decades -- will remain the third largest nation, followed by Indonesia, Brazil, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Nigeria, the figures showed.

Countries expected to fall in population rank include Japan, Russia and Germany, whose birth rates have been low for years. Japan, now the 10th most populous country, will fall to 20th place in 2050, the Census Bureau forecast.

Ethiopia is experiencing rapid population growth and is expected to become the sixth most populous country in 2050, the figures showed.

Other countries expected to rise in population rank include the Democratic Republic of Congo, which has one of the world's highest fertility rates at 5.4 children per woman.

link (

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on January 21, 2011, 16:26:24
India getting the aircraft (with Canadian content) I think the CF want to replace Auroras:

P-8i: India’s Navy Picks Its Future High-End Maritime Patrol Aircraft

CAE helps India get its MAD on. (Jan 20/11)

In December 2005, India’s navy floated an RFP for at least 8 new sea control aircraft. Subsequent statements by India’s Admiral Prakash suggested that they could be looking for as many as 30 aircraft by 2020. Lockheed was invited to bid again, and this time, they were not alone. Bids from a variety of contenders were submitted in April 2007. The plan was for price negotiations to be completed in 2007, with first deliveries to commence within 48 months.

India’s Ministry of Defence has extreme problems with announced schedules, but their existing fleet was wearing out, international requests for India’s maritime patrol help are rising, and some action was necessary. By January 2009, India had picked its aircraft: the 737-derivative P-8i Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft. DID discusses the geopolitical drivers, the current fleet, the known competitors – and Boeing’s 737-base P-8i, which emerged as the winner…

Jan 20/11: CAE in Montreal, QB, Canada announces a subcontract from Boeing to provide its AN/ASQ-508A Advanced Integrated Magnetic Anomaly Detection (MAD) System for India’s 8 P-8is. The value is cloaked by its presence within a scattershot set of announcements worth a total of “more than $140 million.”

MAD systems work by identifying magnetic variations or anomalies caused by large metal objects, such as a submarine, in the Earth’s magnetic field. CAE’s MAD system is already in use by a number of countries and platforms: P-3 Orion derivatives flown by Brazil, Canada, and South Korea; Turkey’s CN-235MP and ATR-72 MPAs; Chile’s C-295 MPAs; and Japan’s locally-developed XP-1 maritime patrol aircraft...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on January 27, 2011, 16:24:06
US going great guns for Indian defence sales (lengthy Indian article, note problem for F-35 from Russian/Indian 5G fighter--via Spotlight on Military News and International Affairs

US offers F35 JSF to India as India-US Defence Cooperation grows
But Technology Transfer will be an issue

Representatives of Lockheed Martin, which is developing the aircraft, have indicated in the past that the aircraft could be available to India if the Indian Air Force (IAF) opted for the F-16 Super Viper in its quest for some 200 Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MRCAs) but recently, the company made a presentation to the Indian Navy without this condition.

Lockheed Martin’s Vice President for Business Development Orville Prins told India Strategic that a presentation about the aircraft was made to the Indian Navy recently after it expressed interest in the newer generation of aircraft for its future carrier-based aircraft requirements.

The Indian Navy is buying 45 Mig 29Ks for the Gorshkov, or INS Vikramaditya, which it will get from Russia in 2012 and its first indigenous aircraft carrier. But for its second indigenous carrier, and possibly more in the future, the Navy is looking for a newer generation of aircraft as the carrier itself is likely to be bigger.

Although the best of the weapon systems in the US are developed by private companies, the funding for their research and development is provided by the Government which exercises full control on the resultant products and their sale to any foreign country. ToT is a serious issue and in most cases, technology, particularly source codes, is not shared even with Washington’s best allies in the West or East.

Lockheed Martin apparently made the presentation to India after authorization by the US Department of Defense (DOD), but Prins pointed out that the F 35 could be sold only after clearance from the US State Department, for which bilateral negotiations between New Delhi and Washington would need to be held once India expressed interest.

The US is steadily emerging as a new supplier of sophisticated arms to India...

It’s not much compared to what India still spends on defence trade with Russia but it is a significant beginning.

Over the last few weeks, the Indian Ministry of Defence has sent firm orders, or Letters of Request (LoR) for 10 C 17 Globemaster III strategic lift aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and 145 M 777 ultra light howitzers the Indian Army badly needs for its mountain operations [Pak, Chinese borders]...

Although India has placed a firm order for only 10 C 17s, with no options for now, Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal P V Naik had told India Strategic that IAF was looking at 20 aircraft [emphasis added].

Notably, IAF had also placed an order for six C 130J Special Operations aircraft with an option for six more in 2008 with the US Lockheed Martin...Lockheed Martin has offered to transfer the manufacturing facility to India if 40 or 50 aircraft are ordered for military and civil use, particularly in the mountainous north-east regions.

The Border Security Force (BSF) is also considering to buy one or two C 130Js, albeit without some specialized systems that the IAF needs...

Whether India joins the [F-35] production programme or not is an open question, depending upon the numbers required. The Indian Navy cannot have a large requirement and the Indian Air Force is already committed to buying the similar but perhaps more expensive Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) to be jointly produced by Russia’s Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association (KNAPPO) – which produces SU 30 jets – and India’s HAL [emphasis added].

The Russians have done substantial work in this regard, and hope to fly its single seat version by 2015-16 while the IAF hopes to induct its two-seat version by 2017 [good luck]...

...the US has been steadily opening its stable of sophisticated weapons to India. After the sale of Raytheon’s WLRs, which was actually the first combat system under the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) received from the US after India’s nuclear tests in 1974 and 1998, the US has also sold eight highly advanced Boeing P8-I Multi-mission Maritime Aircraft (MMA) to the Indian Navy to patrol the Indian Ocean. The aircraft is still under development, and significantly, will be available to the Indian Navy nearly at the same time as to the US Navy, which has paid for its development.

This was preceded by the transfer of an old amphibious ship, USS Trenton, renamed INS Jalashwa, and its six onboard Sikorsky utility helicopters at nominal costs for the Indian Navy...

Title: Indian Navy Frigate SINKS after colliding with merchantman
Post by: S.M.A. on January 31, 2011, 21:42:24
The largest peacetime loss for the Indian Navy:


Worst-ever peacetime loss for Navy, frigate sinks after collision off Mumbai

In the worst ever peacetime loss for the Indian Navy, the heavily armed frigate INS Vindhyagiri  went down in the Mumbai harbour after colliding with a merchant vessel. The 3,000 tonne warship, designed to take on enemy submarines and surface ships, sank Monday afternoon after catching fire after the collision with a Cyprus-flag container carrier, M V Nordlake 24 hours earlier.

The loss of the frigate — sources said a salvage would be difficult as the warship has touched bottom — sent shock waves through the naval community. Commentators said the incident was “ignominious” and had dented the Navy’s image.

The Leander class frigate, commissioned in 1981, hit the merchant vessel near the Sunkrock lighthouse within the pilotage area of the channel at 4.36 pm on Sunday, as it was entering the harbour after a ‘day at sea’ for families of sailors and officers. No one was hurt in the mishap.

link (

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on February 14, 2011, 10:47:55
Supposed inside poop--plus some Mark I eyeballing (MiG 35, F-16 effectively out):

European fighters lead MMRCA race

It was a no-holds-barred duel at Aero India 2011 for a $10-billion (Rs 45,500 crore) prize. Turn by turn, four of the world’s most advanced fighter aircraft roared into the sky, keenly aware of the watching eyes of Indian ministry of defence (MoD) officials who would decide which of them was best suited for the Indian Air Force’s order of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).
Their performances mirrored each fighter’s fortunes in the MMRCA race...

Lockheed Martin seems to know its India campaign is blighted. Over the past two months, company officials and even the Pentagon, the US defence headquarters, have shifted the focus to the F-35, the fifth generation stealth fighter that Lockheed Martin is developing. But while the Pentagon’s acquisition chief, Ashton Carter, has signalled American willingness to include India in the F-35 programme, the Indian MoD is not persuaded.

On getting a fifth generation fighter from the US, Antony replied, “Already we are engaged with Russia to produce a fifth generation fighter…. No other country has offered us these technologies in the past. We are way ahead now [in the partnership with Russia]. There is no question of going back.”

The other American contender, the F/A-18 Super Hornet, regaled spectators with a superb display of combat manoeuvring, Showcasing its history as a combat fighter, the F/A-18 was the only contender that flew with missiles fitted under its wings, which is avoided in aerobatics because of the resulting drag. But though the Super Hornet was the tightest turner, its aerobatics were conducted at slow speeds. That sluggishness is also true of its campaign in India.

“We scored the F/A-18 poorly during flight evaluation,” says an IAF officer who was closely involved.
That leaves the three European contenders: the Eurofighter (from a four-country consortium), the Dasault Rafale (from france) and the Saab Gripen (Sweden). Each of them put up a superb display of high-speed aerobatics, performing loops, barrel rolls, and spells of inverted flying that clearly pushed the boundaries of the aircrafts’ flight envelopes.

The Gripen showed enormous agility in its vertical handling, something that would allow it to climb above the enemy fighter in a dogfight, to an advantageous killing position. At the end of his display, the Gripen’s pilot displayed how little runway the fighter needs to land, stopping dead in barely 900 ft [emphasis added].

But IAF officers point out two key drawbacks to the Gripen’s campaign: “The Gripen’s AESA radar is the least developed of all the MMRCA contenders; and, being a single-engine fighter, it carries significantly less weaponry than the big twin-engine contenders.”
The twin-engine advantage was immediately evident when the Rafale and the Eurofighter took to the skies, lashing the spectators with a blast of sound. There was little to choose between both those aircraft, their High-G (sharp turn); High-Alpha (slow flying) aerobatics leaving the spectators clapping.

“The MMRCA contest is now between the Eurofighter and the Rafale,” says an IAF officer associated with the flight evaluation. “It will boil down to price. But if the MoD accepts a smaller fighter, with a radar that has some way to go, the economically-priced Gripen could be the dark horse that wins...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on February 14, 2011, 13:26:14
More (via Spotlight on Military News and International Affairs]:

Dogfight over $10b fighter deal

It’s the biggest fighter jet import order in a long time, and for a long time. It’s the deal the world's great military-industrial powers have been waiting to clinch — the Indian Air Force's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) purchase that could fetch the deal winner over $ 10 billion. And with Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik saying he expected India to have signed off on the deal by September, the dogfight between the contenders is intensifying.

Signs of that intensification were more than apparent during the Aero India show at the Yelahanka Air Force Station on Thursday, with some of the contenders — Lockheed Martin (F-16IN), Boeing (F/A-18), EADS (Eurofighter Typhoon), the French Dassault (Rafale), SAAB (Gripen) — making light or dismissing outright competitors.

Officials of the European contenders mocked Lockheed Martin's apparently recent bid to let the F-35 Fifth Generation fighter among the contending Fourth Generation fighters, saying that it was a sign of the F-16IN losing altitude in the contest. The world’s largest military equipment maker, they alleged, has sought to confuse Indian decision-makers by putting out talk of the F-35. Worse, they alleged, the Fifth Generation tag is a marketing gimmick, because “Lockheed Martin has put out a self-serving definition of what constitutes a Fifth Generation jet,” EADS officials said.

“If you are saying stealth is a defining 5G characteristic, then the greater the capabilities of the electronic scanning (AESA) radar, the other must-have, the more questionable stealth becomes”, the officials said. “Also, designing a fighter for stealth means compromising on agility and lethality. Stealth is a survivability concern. You can sneak in on an enemy, but you will still need to have a good punch to take out the enemy. Also, stealth works so long as you are not detected, but once detected, stealthy aircraft lack agility to escape. Stealth and survivability can be ensured in more than one way. The Eurofighter relies on agility, the F-22 relies on agility [and stealth] to survive. So, is India prepared to sacrifice weapons carriage, supercruise, agility for stealth”.

Lockheed Martin officials, in turn, seemed to be dismissing fellow US giant Boeing's bid to win the contract for its F/A-18 Super Hornet by dangling a 'roadmap of future development' of the aircraft that would give it Fifth Generation characteristics and keep the jet relevant for the next several decades.
[More: ]
"Fifth Generation capabilities cannot be grafted onto an existing aircraft. They have to be built in from the start", they said...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on February 16, 2011, 10:35:25
Indian military getting new weapons for regional force projection:

2. Indian Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) chief VK Saraswat said on Friday all sub-systems of the country’s first indigenous subsonic medium-range cruise missile Nirbhay (fearless) were almost in place and it would be ready by early next year.

Speaking at Aero India-2011, he said: “Integration of the engine is under way.”

The missile with a range of 1,000 km can take to the skies from multiple launchers and will arm all the three services. Nirbhay is expected to supplement the 300-km-range supersonic BrahMos.

Saraswat said an advanced version of BrahMos would be ready by 2012. The technology of the hypersonic missile call-ed BrahMos Mark-2 or BrahMos-2 was successfully lab-tested in May 2008 at a speed of 6.5 mach. The hypersonic demonstrator vehicle will attain a level flight for a ground-to-ground test at a height of 30 km before it hits the target with a speed between seven and eight mach.

The mach-8 Brahmos-2, an advanced version of the present air-launched missile, will be the country’s first hypersonic cruise missile. DRDO and Russian NPO-Mash are working on a sustained flight scramjet, which will be the core element of the Mark-2 version.About a ballistic missile defence shield, Saraswat said the next AAD (advanced air defence) test will take place this month.
Title: Re: Indian Navy Frigate SINKS after colliding with merchantman
Post by: Colin P on February 16, 2011, 13:53:59
The largest peacetime loss for the Indian Navy:

Being Leander class, this is likely good news long term for their budget, she must have been getting long in the tooth by now.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on March 01, 2011, 13:30:44
Now to an Indian topic other than defence...development.

Like the unorthodox dual-track policies in China and the Asian Tiger economies when they started growing, I find it interesting that India had growth as well that went contrary to the prescriptions of the neoliberal, free market Washington Consensus that dominated the World Bank and the IMF's aid programs to other developing countries. Many in academia blame the Washington Consensus for the disastrous structural adjustment programs in Sub-Saharan Africa and Latin America. However, India had policies that went contrary to free market ideas, such as a 30% tariff (now still has a 25% tariff) as well as huge fertilizer subsidies, but yet it has had a lot of growth which rivals China (

Sure there is a lot of inequality, but that's just the Kuznets curve at work for developing nations... which sees inequality become more acute at the initial stages of growth...

link (

India's richest man urges 'equitable growth'
By Punit Paranjpe | AFP News – 17 minutes ago

India's richest man Mukesh Ambani said Tuesday the country needed equitable growth at all levels to include millions of Indians residing in slums and villages in the mainstream of progress.

Ambani, who heads India's largest private company, petrochemical giant Reliance Industries, is India's wealthiest man with an estimated $27 billion fortune. He lives in one of the largest and most expensive homes in the world. Addressing the annual meeting organised by the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry, a leading industry group in New Delhi, Ambani stressed the urgent need to bridge the gap between rich and poor.

He spoke of the two narratives of India, one that sees the country from the "stratosphere, rhapsodises about its growth and romanticises its democracy."

The other narrative, he said, "imagines the growth engine as a heartless monster that leaves large numbers of Indians behind."

"There will be no peace if a billion plus people are discontented, deprived, unhappy and therefore angry," he said, adding that "India's growth story is unsustainable without including millions in our progress."

He called for industry to work to unite the "two Indias" and create 15 million jobs every year to absorb 200 million youth in the next 10 years.

The magnate, whose business interests run from oil and gas exploration to grocery shops said better healthcare was needed to protect the demographic dividend, the youth who are largely unprotected and uncared for.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on March 03, 2011, 15:55:37
Paying to play in the big leagues:
India Raises Defense Budget by Nearly 12%

India has raised its defense budget by nearly 12% for 2011-12, about 1.8% of its GDP. Last year it raised its budget by just 4%. But according to the respected Hindustan Times, defense “spending ought to have been around 3% of the GDP, seen in the backdrop of China's rising military might.”

Strategic affairs expert Air Vice Marshal Kapil Kak (retd) was quoted by the daily as saying “the hike is hardly adequate to meet the military’s rising responsibilities in view of the feverish pace of China’s military modernization. India’s defence modernization gathered steam only during the last three to four years. Much needs to be done to build offensive capabilities in the long term.”

The increase to $36.5 billion for 2011-12, from $32.74 billion this year, includes a 12% boost in spending for weapon systems and platforms. As a comparison China's 2010 defense budget was $78 billion.

Indian Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee told the country's parliament, the Lok Sabha, when he was presenting the budget earlier this week that "more than 40% of the Indian defense budget for 2011 will be spent on capital expenditure [emphasis added], while the rest will go toward maintaining its armed forces.”

Among procurements which could be finalized next year are the $11 billion deal for 126 multi-role combat aircraft as well as 197 light helicopters and 145 ultra-light howitzers for the army. During Aero India last month, the Chief of Air Staff P.V. Naik stated that, barring complications, the combat aircraft contract should be signed by September...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on March 07, 2011, 17:24:56
Slowly, slowly:

MMRCA Shortlist To Be Announced Early April

NEW DELHI — The shortlist for the six contenders for India’s Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program is to be announced in the first week of April.

Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik had declared at Aero India on Feb. 10 that he was optimistic that price negotiations would start within a few weeks and a deal could be signed by September, “provided dissatisfied vendors do not put a spoke in the wheel and delay proceedings.”

Aviation Week has learned that two or three vendors will be asked to submit their offset proposals within six months. The defense ministry will negotiate offsets with the down-selected companies only. Recently, the ministry asked all MMRCA vendors to hold back on presenting their offset proposals.

According to India’s Defense Procurement Procedures, the offset proposals are not a primary criterion for the source selection, as they are compliant.

The 126-aircraft MMRCA contract is the largest defense procurement program in India and the most-watched fighter competition around the world. In the running are Mikoyan’s MiG-35, the Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen, Boeing F/A-18E/F and Lockheed Martin F-16.

Some observers here have been speculating that the Typhoon and Rafale are the leading contenders. It is not clear if a decision has been made on a third down-select vendor; sources in the defense ministry have indicated it could be Boeing.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on March 13, 2011, 14:08:53
The other religious-inspired terrorists--important article, I think:

Hindu terrorism charges force India to reflect on prejudices against Muslims

IN DEWAS, INDIA When a series of bomb attacks ripped through Muslim neighborhoods, mosques and shrines in India in recent years, suspicion fell firmly on a familiar culprit: Islamist terror. After each incident, scores of Indian Muslims were rounded up, and many were tortured. Confessions were extracted, the names of various militant "masterminds" leaked to the media and links with Pakistan widely alleged.

Never mind that most of the victims were Muslims; it seemed natural to many people, from New Delhi to Washington, to assume the attacks were the work of extremist Pakistani militants and their Indian Muslim sympathizers, intent on fanning religious tensions in India and disrupting the peace process between the nuclear-armed rivals.

But those investigations, and the assumptions behind them, were turned on their head early this year by the confession of a Hindu holy man. Swami Aseemanand told a magistrate that the bomb makers were neither Pakistani nor Muslim but Hindu radicals, bent on revenge for many earlier acts of terrorism across India that had been perpetrated by Muslims.

His statement, subsequently leaked to the media, alleged that a network of radicals stretched right up to senior levels of the country's Hindu nationalist right wing. It also exposed deep-seated prejudices within the police against the country's minority Muslim population.

Ironically, the charges may also have helped India and Pakistan to get back to the negotiating table last month after relations broke down in the wake of the 2008 attacks on Mumbai.

A string of attacks

Like many Indians, Aseemanand was furious with terrorist attacks in the country carried out by Muslims. "We should answer bombs with bombs," he told a small group of Hindu extremists in June 2006, only to discover a plot was already well under way.

In the ensuing 18 months, bombs were placed on bicycles in a Muslim cemetery in the western town of Malegaon, hidden under a granite slab in a mosque in Hyderabad and left in a tiffin lunchbox in an important Sufi shrine in Ajmer, all targets Aseemanand said he suggested.

In another attack, 68 people, most of them Pakistanis, were killed when suitcases packed with explosives were placed next to gasoline bottles on a train headed from western India to Pakistan. Many of the victims were unable to escape the inferno because of bars on the train windows, and their bodies were burned beyond recognition.

Evidence that radical Hindus, including an army colonel who is suspected of supplying the technical expertise and the explosives, were behind several of these bombings began to surface more than two years ago, and several people were arrested, including Aseemanand.

But his statement is the first clear evidence that Indian Hindu terrorists were to blame for the deaths of Pakistani Muslim travelers on the Samjhauta, or Friendship, Express.

Pakistan reacted to the news with ill-disguised glee, arguing that the botched investigations and the subsequent confession confirmed its suspicions that India "lacked the courage" to prosecute radical Hindus.

In India, there was sober reflection in some quarters about prejudices against Muslims. The Hindu right's old adage, that "while not every Muslim is a terrorist, every terrorist is a Muslim," could no longer be trotted out with a straight face.

India had been insisting it would not restart a formal peace process with Pakistan until that country properly investigated and prosecuted state-sponsored militants blamed for the attacks on Mumbai, which left 166 people dead.

Pakistan responded in kind, demanding a fuller and faster investigation into the train attack. India put on a brave face, but the revelations were an embarrassment, one official privately admitted, as Indian media judged that their government had lost some of the moral high ground...

Meanwhile, nine Muslims have languished in jail for more than four years, accused of carrying out the Malegaon bombings, in which 37 people were killed. They have been subjected, their attorney says, to horrific torture [emphasis added], their families reduced to poverty. But they hope Aseemanand's confession will soon persuade a judge to release them on bail...

As for torture, see this at the CDFAI's 3Ds Blog:

Corruption? What stinking corruption? And what stinking torture?

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on March 14, 2011, 11:31:51
Very indicative:

Ambitious India now world's largest arms importer (usual copyright disclaimer)

NEW DELHI (AP) -- In its race to join the club of international powers, India has reached another milestone - it's now the world's largest weapons importer.

A Swedish think tank that monitors global arms sales said Monday that India's weapons imports had overtaken China's, as the South Asian nation pushes ahead with plans to modernize its military, counter Beijing's influence and gain international clout.

"India has ambitions to become first a continental and (then) a regional power," said Rahul Bedi, a South Asia analyst with London-based Jane's Defense Weekly. "To become a big boy, you need to project your power."

According to the report from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, India accounted for 9 percent of all international arms imports in the period from 2006 to 2010, and it is expected to keep the top spot for the foreseeable future...

China dropped to second place, with 6 percent of global imports, as it continued to build up its domestic arms industry, something India has so far failed to do, Wezeman said.

The United States was the largest arms exporter, followed by Russia and Germany, according to the report...

India's investment comes amid its rising concerns about China's regional power and its designs over vital Indian Ocean shipping lanes, which New Delhi sees as part of its sphere of influence.

It is spending billions of dollars on fighter jets and aircraft carriers to modernize its air force and navy. Tensions also linger over unresolved border issues with China which led to war in 1962.

India also remains in its traditional faceoff with neighboring Pakistan, with which it has fought three wars...

India's defense budget for the coming year is 1.5 trillion rupees ($32.5 billion), a 40 percent increase from two years before. It imports more than 70 percent of its arms.

The vast majority of those imports, 82 percent, come from Russia, which has long been India's supplier of choice, the report said. But other countries have been pushing for a chunk of the lucrative market, with world leaders streaming here in recent months, in part to push defense deals.

During British Prime Minister David Cameron's July visit, the two countries announced a nearly $1.1 billion deal for India to buy 57 Hawk advanced trainer jets. During President Barack Obama's November visit, a $4.1 billion sale of 10 C-17 transport aircraft was announced.

France and India moved closer to finalizing a $2.1 billion Mirage 2000 fighter aircraft upgrade deal during President Nicolas Sarkozy's December visit, and a few weeks later India and Russia agreed to jointly develop a fifth generation fighter aircraft during President Dmitry Medvedev's visit.

India is awaiting delivery of a $2.3 billion rebuilt aircraft carrier from Russia - as it builds another carrier itself - and has ordered six submarines worth $4.5 billion from France.

With India expected to spend $80 billion over the next decade to upgrade its military, more plums await.

India is in the market to buy 126 fighter jets, a deal worth $11 billion, and about 200 helicopters worth another $4 billion. It also has plans to buy large amphibious landing ships at $300 million to $500 million each [emphasis added, Mistrals?,88747.msg870091.html#msg870091 ]
and is discussing another $10 billion submarine order, Wezeman said...

At least CIDA no longer has a bilateral aid program,
though we do for some reason maintain one in China:

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on June 06, 2011, 08:13:09
See here (,2941.msg1050644.html#msg1050644), please.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on November 03, 2011, 20:31:45
India is already a major power, and getting them on side (through free trade or some sort of formal or informal "Anglosphere" pact) will be one of tghe most pressing issues for Canada and the West in the coming decades. A nation with a middle class population of 300 million will certainly be a very important trading partner at the very least. Dr. Rice makes the case for the United States, I don't think our situation is that much different:


Building a New Relationship with India
by Condoleezza Rice (Thomas and Barbara Stephenson Senior Fellow and member of the Task Force on Energy Policy)
And managing our hot-headed allies, Pakistan and Afghanistan, in the war on terror.
Editor's note: The following essay is an excerpt from the book, "No Higher Honor: A Memoir of My Years in Washington," by Condoleezza Rice

…On February 28 [2006], the President left for India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. The trip required the most delicate balancing act to get the messaging right in each of the places. Our delinking of relations with Islamabad and New Delhi was working—there was no more talk of U.S. policy toward India-Pakistan, or Indo-Pak, as it was sometimes called. We now had distinct approaches to both important countries. And we were doing really well with India: while there the President would sign the landmark civil nuclear deal.

The nuclear deal was the centerpiece of our effort to build a fundamentally different relationship with India. From the earliest stages of the 2000 campaign, it had been our intention to change the terms of U.S.-Indian engagement. As I noted earlier, the crucial nuclear agreement required breaking many taboos. India had refused to sign the NPT in 1968 and had then conducted a nuclear test in 1974. Only five countries had been “grandfathered” as nuclear powers in 1968—the United States, the Soviet Union, Great Britain, France, and China. Any country that subsequently acquired a nuclear capability was deemed to be in violation of this important set of prohibitions. In 1978 President Jimmy Carter signed a bill that cut off all nuclear trade with India.

Photo credit: Google images
The United States thus maintained a web of restrictions on technology transfer and cooperation with India. The list of prohibitions grew over the years, with the condemnation reaching its height in 1998. That year, in response to a long-range missile test by Pakistan, Prime Minister Atal Vajpayee authorized the Indian military to conduct a series of underground nuclear tests, including India’s first test of a thermonuclear weapon. When Pakistan followed up with its own nuclear test, the two countries became linked as the poster children for crimes against the non-proliferation regime.

Their behavior was different, however. India had developed an excellent record of respecting proliferation safeguards in terms of not transferring technology to other countries. Pakistan—well, it was the home of the nuclear proliferation entrepreneur A. Q. Khan, who had spread nuclear enrichment technology to North Korea and Iran, among other places.

India needed civil nuclear power and wanted to break out of the constraints on high-technology cooperation that were stunting its growth. The proposed civil nuclear deal would make it possible for the United States—and American companies—to help India develop its potentially rich market for this environmentally friendly energy source. But the breakthrough was not just about nuclear power—it would unlock a wide range of possible areas of cooperation with a country that was an emerging power in the knowledge-based revolution in economic affairs. The Indians made clear, too, that they hoped to become a customer for U.S. military hardware. That was an exciting prospect for the defense industry. And for us, even though we were not seeking to “balance” China, cooperation with another emerging power in Asia, especially a democratic one, was a welcome development.

The interests of the United States and India were in substantial alignment. But any change of this magnitude brings resistance. In Washington, the high priests of non-proliferation accused us of gutting the NPT, a treaty that had significantly limited the emergence of nuclear weapons states.

Our problems were considerable in 2006 but Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s were far more complicated, stemming from the Indian national security elite’s almost existential attachment to the “independence” of its nuclear program. For some officials, the requirement to place India’s nuclear reactors (only the existing civilian ones and any new ones) under IAEA supervision amounted to nothing less than an attack on India’s sovereignty. Many of those Indian bureaucrats and pundits also valued their country’s “non-aligned status,” a relic of the Cold War, when India had declared itself as belonging to neither the Soviet nor the American “bloc.” When confronted with that argument, my Indian counterpart, K. Natwar Singh, said, “The Cold War is over. Exactly against whom are we non-aligned?” Good point. But for many in New Delhi the idea of close technological cooperation with the United States was just too much to swallow.

To some, the requirement to place India’s nuclear reactors under IAEA supervision amounted to an attack on India’s sovereignty.

As a result of these tensions, the deal suffered several near-death experiences before and after Singh and Bush signed it in New Delhi. The first had come a year before in Washington, when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh visited the United States in July 2005.

The two leaders were expected to sign a framework document to end the moratorium on nuclear trade and pave the way for a full agreement on civil-nuclear cooperation. I met the day before with my Indian counterpart Natwar Singh in his suite at the Willard Hotel. Frankly, there was so much buzz around the State Department that we wanted to work in a location away from the press and where the atmosphere was more informal. I also thought it a sign of respect to go to him, even though we were in Washington.

Natwar was adamant. He wanted the deal, but the prime minister wasn’t sure he could sell it in New Delhi. We pushed as far as we could toward agreement. Finally, Natwar said that he would take the document to the prime minister and let me know.

That evening, [Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs] Nick Burns asked to see me. With Bob Zoellick, the deputy secretary, and several members of the senior staff, Phil Zelikow, Brian Gunderson, and Sean McCormack, in tow, he came down the hall from his office and entered mine. “It isn’t going to work,” Nick said. “The foreign minister tried, but the prime minister just can’t sign on to the agreement.”

I was a bit surprised, perhaps having misread Natwar’s determination as an indicator that he had the authority to speak for his government. It was late, and I was tired. “Well, if they don’t want to get out of the nuclear ghetto, I can’t do anything about it,” I said. “Why don’t you go and meet with the Indians and try one more time.” I called the President. “It isn’t going to work. Singh just can’t make it happen,” I said.

“Too bad,” he answered and didn’t press further. Later that night Nick called to tell me what I already knew—there wouldn’t be a deal. I went to bed, constructing a script in my head for the press the next day about needing more time for the negotiations. That sounds lame, I thought as I drifted into a fitful sleep.

I woke up at 4:30 a.m. and sat straight up in bed. I am not letting this go down, I thought. I called Nick at 5:00 a.m. “I am not prepared to let this fail. Arrange for me to see the prime minister,” I said. The meeting with the President was set for ten. “How about breakfast at eight?” Nick called while I was exercising to say that the prime minister didn’t want to meet. “Get the foreign minister,” I answered. Natwar picked up the phone. My heart was beating pretty fast—maybe from the exercise, maybe from the sense of an important initiative slipping through my fingers. “Natwar, why won’t the PM see me?”

“He doesn’t want to tell you no,” he said. “I’ve done my best. I told him that the United States wants to take this thirty-year millstone from around your neck. You should do it. But he can’t sell it in New Delhi.”

I wasn’t ready to surrender. “Ask him again,” I pleaded. A few minutes later, Natwar called to say that the prime minister would receive me at his hotel at 8 a.m.

I went to the office for a few minutes and then to the Willard, having called the President to tell him I would try personally one more time. Steve asked if I wanted him to go with me. “No, I think I need to do this alone,” I said. I entered the prime minister’s suite and sat there with Natwar and his boss—all three of us not bothering to touch the pastries and coffee that had been served.

“Mr. Prime Minister, this is the deal of a lifetime. You and President Bush are about to put U.S.-Indian relations on a fundamentally new footing. I know it’s hard for you, but it’s hard for the President too. I didn’t come here to negotiate language—only to ask you to tell your officials to get this done. And let’s get it done before you see the President.” Prime Minister Singh, a mild-mannered man who speaks slowly and softly, pushed back but eventually gave the nod to his people to try again.

There was a lot of discussion—but no commitment—regarding India’s pursuit of a permanent seat on the UN Security Council.

end part 1
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on November 03, 2011, 20:33:18
Part 2

I went directly to the White House and told the President what I’d done. When the Indians arrived, our negotiators and theirs sat in the Roosevelt Room, trying to find agreement, while the President, Prime Minister Singh, Natwar, and I sat nervously in the Oval pretending to focus on other matters. Finally, I got a note to join the negotiators. Natwar and I entered the room to the smiling Nick Burns and his counterpart. “We’ve got it,” Nick said.

The two leaders released the framework agreement to the press, most of whom were already writing stories of failure. Bob Zoellick came into my office. “Sometimes the secretary of state gets tested. You wouldn’t take no for an answer,” he said. I felt very good, but the New York Times’s editorial board soon reminded me that there would be a push back. The U.S.-India deal, it opined, would cause responsible NPT signatories to “be more inclined to regard the non-proliferation treaty as an anachronism, reconsider their self-restraint, and be tempted by the precedent that India has successfully established and that now, in effect, has an American blessing.”

The arguments from the non-proliferation community were not without merit. The whole premise of the regime was that countries who pursued civilian nuclear power under safeguards—inspections, reporting, and so on—would not pursue military weapons programs. It was too easy, it was thought, to divert technology from one to the other. That, some said, had been the argument vis-à-vis Iran. How could we argue that India was different?

It was a good question, but, unlike Iran, India was not lying to the IAEA about its enrichment activities and the fact of the existence of a military program was well known. Though ideally India—or Pakistan, for that matter—would not have built a nuclear weapons program, this was now a fact of life. The key from our point of view was to get India within the IAEA regime, even if they could not and would not be party to the NPT. Our thinking tracked closely with that of Mohamed ElBaradei, the head of the IAEA and thus the guardian of the NPT. Better to have India in the tent in some fashion, even if New Delhi could not formally join the NPT. ElBaradei understood this point.

At least new construction of reactors would be under safeguard. India already had more than enough nuclear material for its military program. It needed help on the civilian side and we needed the strategic breakthrough with this emerging, democratic power.

The work to move from that initial announcement of a civil-nuclear deal in 2005 to a more detailed framework agreement by March 2006, when the President would visit New Delhi, was extremely difficult and the effort almost failed several times. The prime minister had indeed encountered difficulty when he returned home from Washington in the summer of 2005. By the time of the trip, the Indian delegation was trying to walk back some of the language on IAEA safeguards. Steve and Nick went to the Foreign Ministry to try to hammer out a solution. I thought that I would stay away this time, giving us another bite at the apple should they fail. After several ups and downs and near misses over a period of eight hours, they succeeded. The United States and India had a civil-nuclear deal. Now the really hard work would begin. The reality was that the deal could not go into force until we met a number of criteria stipulated by U.S. law. But we’d lived to fight another day—and that was good enough for the time being.

The nuclear deal was the news of the President’s visit to India. Yet other elements of the trip demonstrated why it was time to change the relationship with this emerging global power. I remember well the President’s meeting with students at the business school in Hyderabad, a center of technological sophistication that personified India’s potential as a high-tech leader and economic dynamo. This could be Stanford, I thought.

There was a lot of discussion—but no commitment—regarding India’s pursuit of a permanent seat on the UN Security Council. The Indians had a good argument and one for which I had some sympathy. The UN Security Council did not reflect the changes in the balance of power that had taken place with World War II. International institutions are like the rings of a tree—you can date their birth by looking at their membership. The original permanent five members of the Security Council (those with veto authority) were the Soviet Union (Russia became the successor state in 1991), China (with the PRC replacing Chang Kai Shek’s ROC in Taiwan in 1971), France, the UK, and the United States. But now there were other important powers and whole continents that were not represented. What about Japan, the world’s third largest economy? What about the Middle East? And of course the emerging market powers of Brazil and India did not hold permanent membership either.

The meeting with Pakistan’s President Musharraf was dominated by talk of terrorism and our response.

The United States had long championed Japan’s case but frankly the politics of UNSC reform were just too complicated to take on. The incorporation of India was opposed by China. Brazil’s candidacy raised the question of Mexico’s exclusion. The Africans could never settle on a candidate to represent a continent split between the Arab north and the Sub-Saharan black south. And reform would have raised a sticky question for our closest allies. Germany wanted membership, too. Did it make sense to have three European representatives—particularly when the European Union was supposed to have a common foreign policy?

We adopted a strategy of acknowledging the importance of reform and welcoming reasonable proposals, but we never acted on any of them. That said, the continued focus on the issue by emerging powers such as India underscored their growing insistence on a voice in international affairs.


By way of contrast to our time in New Delhi, the trip to Pakistan began with the news upon arrival that there had been an attack on the U.S. consulate in Karachi. A U.S. consular officer had been killed. The President, always gracious to his hosts, endeavored to convince the Pakistanis that this in no way cast a shadow on the visit. But of course it did. There was an air of unreality as we fought to make the visit appear normal. The Pakistanis had been insistent that the President sleep just one night in Islamabad to show that it was safe. After a lot of debate, he decided to push the Secret Service beyond its comfort zone and grant the Pakistanis’ request: we’d stay at our ambassador’s fortress-like home.

The contrasts continued. The meetings with Prime Minister Singh had been focused on technological cooperation and removing bureaucratic barriers to foreign investment. The President met for lunch with the members of a joint U.S.-Indian CEO council. But the meeting with Pakistan’s President Musharraf was dominated by talk of terrorism and our response.

And it wasn’t just the conversation that was different. In India, we were treated to a beautiful dinner outdoors on the veranda of the Presidential Palace, a fresh breeze blowing through as we looked out across the beautifully manicured grounds. In Pakistan, aware that we needed to be wheels up for Washington that evening, we sat in the Palace for a hurried two-hour dinner and a “cultural performance” that oddly featured a Western-style fashion show.

Still, the visit to Islamabad allowed us to see a glimpse of a different Pakistan. Musharraf, a classic “man on horseback” who came to power in a military coup, was making important changes in his country. I was struck by the presence of strong women ministers representing the Pakistani government in our meetings. It was also encouraging to see a vibrant press corps peppering both presidents with questions about everything from the possibility of a civil-nuclear deal with Pakistan—not possible from our point of view—to expectations about coming elections in the country. For all his limitations, with the freeing of the press and of the judiciary, Musharraf had laid the groundwork for a civilian government to return. Ironically, those changes would soon turn out to be his undoing.

India and Pakistan were successfully delinked. Unfortunately, the stop in Kabul underscored a link of another kind—Pakistan and Afghanistan were tied together more than ever as the problem of cross-border terrorism deepened. And a proposed policy change in Pakistan would only exacerbate the problem.

In September 2006 we had first gotten wind of a possible deal between the Pakistani military and the tribal leaders in North Waziristan, the territory deep in the mountainous region between Pakistan and Afghanistan. Negotiating with the Pakistani Taliban, Musharraf agreed to withdraw troops from their territory in exchange for assurances that the tribal leaders would cease attacks on the military and stop the infiltration of militants across the Afghan border. The territory has been ungoverned throughout its history. The British had tried and failed, and the Soviet Union had simply left the suspicious, pious, and xenophobic tribes to their own devices. Pakistan had rarely interfered in the area either, but the war on terror required military engagement in the region, as al Qaeda and the Taliban had fled there after our invasion of Afghanistan.

The Pakistani military proved unequipped and poorly trained for the mission and reluctant to transform its capabilities to do a better job. Still focused on India, the Pakistani army was ready for an engagement in Kashmir but not in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) and the North-West Frontier province. Though we had already given Pakistan more than $4.5 billion in security-related assistance by October 2005, Pakistan had accomplished very little in restructuring its armed forces. In fact, Islamabad’s primary concern was the release of the F-16s that had been purchased and then withheld in 1990 when Pakistan was suspected of secretly producing nuclear weapons.

The President had acceded to Musharraf’s plea to deliver the airplanes. “This will make it easier to work with my military and build a spirit of partnership,” Musharraf told me on one occasion. But it said something about the mind-set of the Pakistanis that high-performance aircraft, rather than the nuts-and-bolts of equipment and training for counter-terrorism, dominated our conversations.

The truth is that the Pakistanis had no stomach for fighting in the rugged border region between Pakistan and Afghanistan. Musharraf decided to cut a deal with the tribal leaders—a kind of live and let live. In exchange for a stand-down of the Pakistani military, the tribes agreed to control their “guests,” the terrorists. Only the first half of that deal was realized and the region became a safe haven for several terrorist groups: fighters commanded by Baitullah Mehsud; the Haqqani network, still active after we left office; and remnants of al Qaeda.

In late September 2006, Musharraf would come to Washington to present this deal to the President. We told Musharraf that the United States wouldn’t criticize him publicly and that we’d give the deal a chance to work. But the President made clear to him in the Oval Office meeting that the United States would take action itself if we learned of an imminent threat to our territory or if we learned that key al Qaeda figures were being harbored there. Musharraf was told point blank that we considered it our prerogative to act without permission or—possibly—Islamabad’s knowledge.

Karzai was proving to be a brilliant prosecutor, and Musharraf had few answers.

That night, the President invited Musharraf, Afghan President Karzai, and their respective ambassadors to a small dinner in the family dining room at the White House. The Vice President, Steve Hadley, and I joined President Bush at what turned out to be a contentious affair.

The dinner started routinely enough, with Karzai and Musharraf sharing their thoughts about how things were going against the Taliban and al Qaeda. But after about an hour, Musharraf started to explain the agreement that he’d made with the tribes. Sugarcoating the facts and overselling the potential benefits, he talked for more than thirty minutes. Karzai suddenly interrupted, saying that Musharraf had made a deal not with the tribal leaders but with the terrorists. When Musharraf protested, Karzai dramatically pulled out a piece of paper from his long flowing cape. “See, it says right here that the Taliban will not be disturbed,” he said. Musharraf tried to answer, but Karzai was on a roll, stopping just short of accusing the Pakistani of complicity in the cross-border raids into his country.

Things were getting pretty hot. The ambassadors were shifting in their seats, and, frankly, so were we. It was as if we were watching a heavyweight bout where one overmatched fighter had somehow gotten into the ring by mistake. Karzai was proving to be a brilliant prosecutor, and Musharraf had few answers; he seemed suddenly not to know what he’d signed.

President Bush interjected the thought that perhaps they could monitor the progress on the deal together. It was a bit lame but about all anyone could think of at the moment to separate the verbal combatants. It didn’t work, and the two were getting hotter under the collar by the moment. A photograph from that dinner says it all: Karzai and Musharraf glaring at each other while we, the ever-sunny Americans, sit with nervous—almost silly—grins on our faces.

Finally Karzai mentioned something about a joint loya jirga (tribal council) that he’d proposed. He’d never received an answer. We jumped on the opening, turning the conversation to getting such a council established. I said that I’d call Ryan Crocker and Ronald Neumann, our ambassadors in Islamabad and Kabul, to help coordinate the establishment of the jirga. When the two men left, the Vice President, Steve, the President, and I looked at one another in amazement. “They almost came to blows,” the President said. Everyone nodded in agreement.

The management of the relationship between our allies in the war on terror suddenly seemed daunting in the extreme. However, the relationship between the two men had soured well before that dinner, and the strains were very much on display as we visited Afghanistan during the President’s trip on March 1, 2006, months before their Washington encounter. When we arrived in Kabul, Karzai vented about Musharraf, whom he accused of wanting to annex Afghan Pashtuns into Pakistan. Musharraf had made a similar claim about Karzai’s desire for a greater Pashtunistan during our time in Islamabad.

The President turned the conversation with President Karzai to the training of the Afghan security forces, fighting corruption, and—most troubling—the failing effort to rid Afghanistan of poppy. The President gently suggested that we might have to use some of the methods that had succeeded in Colombia, including aerial spraying.

Hamid Karzai is a proud man, and, as had been the case in my encounter with him the year before, he tended to emphasize the positive. But it was frustrating as he declared problem after problem to be under control. “We’re making real progress with the governors on poppy eradication,” he said, a statement belied by the estimates of numerous monitoring organizations. “All we need are some alternative crops—maybe pomegranates—for them to grow,” he continued, only to note that the road network didn’t allow for the transport of perishable fruits and vegetables to market. “So we need roads, roads, roads—as quickly as possible,” he added. There was always a story of villagers who’d come to him promising to plant good crops, not bad ones.

In fact, it was good that Karzai was an optimist—maybe that was what got him up in the morning to do one of the hardest jobs on Earth. But sometimes I couldn’t tell if Karzai believed what he was saying or just thought that we might. He did not want to even acknowledge the possibility of dramatic measures such as crop destruction through aerial spraying. The issue would be a source of tension between our two countries for the remainder of the President’s term. But as frustrating as the relationship with Karzai sometimes was, he was the elected president of Afghanistan. Though in time we would come to see the importance of the governors of the provinces in addressing the country’s challenges, there was no alternative to Karzai, who stepped up to be the first freely elected president of his country.

That afternoon, the President and Laura, Karzai, our ambassador Ron Neumann, and I cut the ribbon dedicating the gigantic but not particularly attractive new U.S. Embassy in Kabul. The President asked if I’d had anything to do with the architectural design. I made clear that I hadn’t. But the big, ugly building would serve its purpose and it sent the message that, for better or worse, we were in Afghanistan for the long run.

Condoleezza Rice is the Thomas and Barbara Stephenson Senior Fellow on Public Policy at the Hoover Institution, professor of political economy in the Stanford Graduate School of Business, and professor of political science at Stanford University.

From January 2005 to 2009, she served as the 66th secretary of state of the United States. Before serving as America’s chief diplomat, she served as assistant to the president for national security affairs (national security adviser) from January 2001 to 2005.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on November 09, 2011, 07:43:05
Not everything works as expected according to this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail:
India’s Nano hits bumps on the road

NEW DELHI— From Wednesday's Globe and Mail

Last updated Wednesday, Nov. 09, 2011

When Indian industrial giant Tata launched the Nano, the hype was huge. Sleek and cute in buttercup yellow, its sticker price was $2,000, making it the “world’s cheapest car.”

It promised to revolutionize both its market – putting low-income consumers behind the wheel – and car-making, through a process called “frugal engineering.” The Indian public clamoured with excitement; people lined up for hours at events to sit in a prototype. Auto companies outside India watched with great anticipation, too: was this the future for emerging markets in developing countries?

Two years later, the Nano is a cute, yellow disaster – not because there’s anything wrong with the car, which remains something of an engineering triumph, but because of a series of surprising blunders on the part of Tata.

Nano sales were predicted to be 25,000 cars a month by this point. Instead, the company sold just 2,936 in September, half as many as a year before. August was even worse, with just 1,202 Nanos sold countrywide.

Image from the Globe and Mail

So what went wrong? Missteps in everything from distribution, advertising, marketing and financing plans hobbled the car from the start.

The Nano, so the story goes, was the brainchild of Ratan Tata, the venerable head of the Tata Group. He had a vision for what the Nano would do, and it wasn’t as simple as selling millions: He said he wanted to get low-income Indian families who typically travel by scooter (families of four, five, even six, piled on a single cycle, helmet-less) off their two-wheeler, as they are called here, and into something safer. As a side benefit, he hoped the car could be produced in an IKEA-esque flat pack and shipped to remote corners of the country, creating a business opportunity for mechanics to assemble them.

Some who have watched sales of the teeny car sputter speculate that Mr. Tata’s altruistic intentions may have blinded him to some harsh marketing realities.

In essence, the Nano was marketed as the car for people who could barely afford a car. But in a market where car purchases are hugely aspirational, nobody wants that car, said Vinay Sharma, a professor of marketing and strategic management at the Indian Institute of Technology at Roorkee, whose classes study the fate of the Nano. People save for years for their first vehicle; if they drive a Nano home, the reaction from the kids is, “ ‘What have you brought, a compromise, a car that is almost a motorcycle?’ This was not the car people were dreaming of,” he said.

Most of those who have driven the Nano come away full of praise: It’s remarkably roomy, a pleasure to steer and is economical with fuel. It doesn’t feel like the world’s cheapest car.

But that hasn’t translated into people buying them.

The Nano faced two big problems early on. Its original production facility, in West Bengal, got tangled up in messy politics with the state’s Marxist then-government, and at the 11th hour the plant was shifted to Gujarat – so the company wasn’t able to meet an early rush of orders.

Once cars were on the road, there were safety fears. A few early Nanos burst into flames while being driven, and Tata didn’t mount the public relations offensive it should have over those incidents, said Ray Titus, professor of marketing and consumer behaviour at Alliance University in Bangalore.

But the company had larger woes. There was barely any print or television advertising to give the Nano a brand identity beyond cheap, and the company made equally severe missteps in distribution. Tata marketed the Nano through showrooms in big cities, which meant that much of its target market in small cities and towns never saw one.

In addition, although the car was cheap (about $2,500 once it finally went on sale), the company failed to make it easy for the lowest earners to obtain financing – the Nano needed below-market interest rates and fast onsite loans, Prof. Titus said. Instead, as would-be buyers struggled through the process of getting a bank loan based on their low-wage jobs, they realized they could get a slightly larger loan, and perhaps buy a Maruti Swift, the lowest-price vehicle from Tata’s main competitor, which has none of the stigma of being a poor person’s car.

Tata is scrambling to address some of these problems: today a buyer can put down 15,000 rupees, or $300, and drive off with the car; there are finance plans with local banks. The base price has been pushed down again. Debases Ray, spokesman for Tata Motors, said the company is currently setting up a network of Nano dealerships in towns with populations of less than 500,000 people; it hopes to have 300 by March, 2012.

Mr. Ray also noted that a big hike in fuel prices and interest rates last summer squashed all of India’s car market, not just the Nano, and that the Nano’s target customers are the most vulnerable to those kinds of expense increases. While there is gaping overcapacity at the Gujarat plant, which can produce 250,000 units a year, the company has begun exports to Sri Lanka and Nepal.

The Nano story has been followed closely by the automotive world outside India – as the first experiment with low-income consumers in developing countries that represent a massive vein of new sales potential for car markers the world over. The “frugal engineering” idea, of making a low-cost product as simply as possible (which originated with the French car maker Renault, but has been embraced by a number of firms in India) involves stripping the manufacturing process down to its component parts, and doing each as cheaply and simply as possible.

It worked for the product, said Ferdinand Dudenhoeffer, who teaches in the centre for automotive research at the University of Duisburg-Essen in Germany; the Nano is a good one. But the collapse of sales have prompted other companies that had plans for a Nano-esque product of their own, for India or elsewhere, to shelve those plans for now. Still, if they learn from Tata’s errors with the Nano, the basic idea is still solid, he said. “They just have to refine it – the production system and design system are good,” he said. “It will just need a different approach.”

This doesn't mean that "frugal engineering" is a bad idea, nor that Nano like cars will not appear, soon, in China, India, Indonesia, Philippines and so on.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on December 26, 2011, 02:33:04
The global economy catches up with India as well:’s-economy

Slip-sliding away
Dec 12th 2011, 17:25 by P.F. | KOLKATA

EXPECTATIONS for India’s economic growth rate have been sliding inexorably. In the early spring there was still heady talk about 9-10% being the new natural rate of expansion, a trajectory which if maintained would make the country an economic superpower in a couple of decades. Now things look very different. The latest GDP growth figure slipped to 6.9% and industrial production numbers just released, on December 12th, showed a decline of 5.1% compared with the previous period, a miserable state of affairs. The slump looks broadly based, from mining to capital goods, and in severity compares with that experienced at the height of the financial crisis, in February 2009, when a drop of 7.2% took place. Bombast is turning to panic.

Several riders apply. The industrial production series is notoriously volatile—most economists admit to being baffled by its swings. The comparison with the prior year period was unflattering. And it would be surprising if India were not hurt by the agonies of the rich world—after all from China to Brazil investors are jittery about the outlook, too. Moreover the Reserve Bank of India (RBI) has been raising rates through the year to try to bring inflation, running at some 9%, under control. At Mumbai drinks parties, after a scotch too many, industrialists can be reduced to apoplexy on this subject—the central bank, they argue, has overreacted, killing growth to tame an inflation problem that is largely the result of structural factors such as poor food supply chains.

Yet another factor looms. Years of government drift have meant a loss of momentum on reform, from building infrastructure to controlling graft. That drift was symbolised by the ruling coalition’s decision this month to allow in foreign supermarkets into India, which it was forced to reverse two weeks later after widespread protests and objections from the smaller parties it relies on to stay in power. India’s economy can seem like a bicycle—it needs to keep moving fast to be stable. Once conviction in the destination falters, companies curb investment and hope turns to fear that the country’s problems may be intractable.

An optimistic reading of these latest numbers is that they might force India’s politicians to move beyond the rancour of recent months and agree a program of reforms that would bolster confidence at home and abroad. But given a busy electoral cycle the odds of that seem poor. The concern now is that if growth slows a whole lot of other worries come to the fore, from potential bad debts in the banking system, the government’s poor fiscal position and the challenge of funding a current-account deficit when outside investors have got cold feet. Already the rupee has slid reflecting the last of those worries. India’s finances look solid when it is motoring along at close to double digits and weak when it is expanding at half that rate.

Given all this an uncomfortable burden of expectation now sits on the shoulders of the RBI, one of the few government institutions in India that commands respect, albeit grudgingly from some business folk. It could start cutting rates. But given inflation is still quite persistent, this would involve a theological U-turn. It has other tools available to try to ease the supply of credit, such as lowering the amount of cash banks must hold as reserves, creating room on their balance sheets to lend more. Unless there is a sudden change in government policy—or those statistics are shown to be cranky—action now seems likely. But as in the rich world, India may find that central banks cannot always work short-term economic miracles, nor sustain long-term ones all on their own.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on January 16, 2012, 20:04:49
India seems quite optomistic about their prospects and long term planning:

Indian Scientists Propose 10 Experiments For 2013 Mission To Mars

Srinivas Laxman
January 9, 2012

A Indian mission to Mars is taking shape with space scientists proposing 10 experiments, mostly related to the study of the Red Planet’s atmosphere.

Proof that this challenging mission is no longer a dream is amply evident in a report of the Planetary Sciences and Exploration conference, organized by the Ahmedabad-based Planex group of the Physical Research Laboratory (PRL), an affiliate of ISRO, between December 12 and 14, 2011.

The report shows that scientists from various ISRO centers and the PRL are extremely enthusiastic about the flight to the Red Planet, and are awaiting a formal ‘go’ from ISRO, the Space Commission, and the Union Cabinet.

As a precursor to the mission, a Mars Mission Study Team has already been formed to prepare the science and mission scenarios for ISRO.

In addition, a brainstorming session on Mars science and exploration was held at the PRL on March 24 and 25, 2011, as a preparatory step for ISRO’s Mars exploration plans. This two-day session served as an initial platform for scientists and students to fuel up their proposals and plans for an Indian Mars mission.

The December conference report states that the 10 Indian Martian experiments suggested are:

■Probe For Infrared Spectroscopy for Mars (Prism) which will study certain aspects of the Martian atmosphere and “spatial and seasonal variations of these gases over the lifetime of the mission.”
■Mars Exospheric Neutral Composition Analyzer (Menca) which will analyze the Martian upper atmosphere-exosphere region 400 km above the surface.
■Another instrument (Tis) will measure thermal emissions from the surface of the Red Planet. Its primary science goals include mapping the surface composition and mineralogy of Mars and understanding the dynamics of the Martian atmosphere by monitoring carbon dioxide levels.
■Using radio signals to study the atmosphere.
■Mars Color Camera (MCC) which can image from a highly elliptical orbit of 500 km x 80,000 km. It will be designed as a multi-purpose instrument which can image the topography of the Martian surface and map Martian polar caps. “It is expected to observe and help in furthering our understanding of events like dust storms and dust devils. From an elliptical orbit around Mars, the camera will return high quality visual images of Mars, its moons, asteroids and other celestial bodies from close quarters,” the report states.
■A Methane Sensor For Mars (MSM) has been recommended for detecting methane in the Martian atmosphere.
■A Mars Radiation Spectrometer (Maris) which can measure and characterize charged particle background levels during the cruise and orbit phase of the spacecraft. This instrument will play an important role for a possible future human mission to Mars as it will determine radiation exposure doses.
■A Plasma and Current Experiment (Pace) which will assess what is known as “atmospheric escape and processes of the Martian atmosphere and the structure of the Martian tail.”
■A microwave remote sensing technique for sounding the Martian atmosphere. Scientists connected with this instrument say that it will be designed to be minimally affected during a dust storm.
■A suite of instruments to detect plasma waves in the Martian atmosphere.
If this much-awaited mission finally gets off the ground with the required approvals, only some of the 10 experiments and payloads will be selected, with a focus on experiments that have not been done before, sources tell Asian Scientist Magazine.

Mars fever has gripped many scientists at the PRL, with an Indian chapter of the Mars Society formed at IIT-Mumbai.

Planning for the Mars lift off has progressed to such an extent that the provisional launch windows have already been fixed for either 2013, 2016, or 2018 from Sriharikota, India’s main spaceport near Chennai.

According to the scientists, if the launch takes place in November 2013, then the Indian spacecraft will enter the orbit around Mars in September 2014. It will be an orbiting mission and not a landing one. On reaching Mars after a 10-month flight, the spacecraft will operate and pick up scientific data in a highly elliptical orbit of 500 km x 80,000 km.

Some scientists even feel that the mission to Mars must be given precedence over the second Indian mission to the moon, Chandrayaan-2, since India has already done a lunar mission successfully.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Colin P on January 24, 2012, 16:24:09
Not everything works as expected according to this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail:

This doesn't mean that "frugal engineering" is a bad idea, nor that Nano like cars will not appear, soon, in China, India, Indonesia, Philippines and so on.

I think a big problem is the nanos is nowhere near as flexiable as a scooter. A scooter can be be brought inside safe from flooding, thieves. Sidecars and hawker stalls can be bolted onto them.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on February 21, 2012, 16:59:15
The Atlantic on the "Two India" problem. This is a difficult issue given the various divisions in Indian society, but there are lots of different initiatives (ranging from sub $100 laptops for children to new cooking stoves that don't require animal dung as fuel, and lots of things in between [agricultural improvements, microloans etc.]).

How it plays out will be very important to the stability of India and the region; we can help by pushing free trade with India and broadening and deepening social, political and economic links between our countries:

The Two Indias: Astounding Poverty in the Backyard of Amazing Growth
By Kentaro Toyama
Feb 20 2012, 1:50 PM ET 7

With the world's largest democracy in the embrace of a freer-than-free market capitalism, India may prove a bellwether for liberal societies everywhere.

"Incredible India" is the brand this country's Ministry of Tourism has been pushing in a global marketing campaign launched in 2002, and it couldn't be more fitting. Over the last decade, India has witnessed a stunning acceleration of rapid changes, both good and bad, that it began in the 1990s.

The most widely noticed metamorphosis is economic. Over the last ten years, India's GDP has grown between 7-9% per year, second only to China's sustained growth rates. In 2011, Forbes counted 57 Indian billionaires, up from only four a decade before. The same period saw Indian corporations vaulting onto the international stage. Tata Motors shocked the automobile industry with an acquisition of the British Jaguar Land Rover business in 2008. India's famed business-process outsourcing industry has expanded beyond call centers and software development to medicine, law, tax preparation, animation, and even music-video production. And, several IT giants have turned the tables on offshoring: No longer are jobs only "Bangalored." Today, Indian companies employ thousands of Americans on U.S. soil.

All of this is striking for an economy that languished for decades. From 1947, when India won its independence, through the 1980s, annual per-capita income grew at 1.3% per year, a snail's pace oft-derided by the Indian elite as the "Hindu rate of growth." Today, though, any social theorists walking the bustling streets of Mumbai might be tempted to revise Max Weber's classic treatise: The Hindu Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism.

Economic change has been accompanied by a less noted, but no less significant, political inflection point. Alongside the enthralling Arab Spring and China's stillborn Jasmine Revolution, something that might be called the "Turmeric Revolution" has been bubbling over in India.

Though theoretically a democracy, India's governance has resembled something of a feudal system in practice. Politicians and bureaucrats often act like dukes and barons with term limits. They routinely apply a corrupt layer of graft for their personal benefit.

A self-confident educated class, however, has risen up to say "No more!" Last year, hundreds of thousands of protesters rallied around a series of hunger strikes by social activist Anna Hazare. The movement shined a spotlight on the terms of an anti-corruption bill that many criticize as being too weak. In West Bengal, May elections saw an end to the 34-year reign of the communist Left Front alliance. It lost to the Trinamool Congress party, which made corruption-free governance the pillar of its campaign.

Meanwhile, the bar for being above the law appears to be rising, as high-profile culprits in corruption cases are brought to account. Karnataka Chief Minister B. S. Yeddyurappa was arrested over accusations of illicit land and iron mining deals that benefited his family. And, the headline-dominating "2G scam" was partially resolved this month with a Supreme Court decision to nullify all 122 2G wireless spectrum licenses issued under the tenure of former Telecommunications Minister A. Raja. Raja, who is believed to have personally pocketed $600 million at a cost to the government treasury of $39 billion, has been arrested and charged, along with several others implicated in the scandal.


These successes are far from being universally shared, however. Though rates of poverty are declining, in 2005 the World Bank estimated that 42% of India's population still lived at under $1.25 a day (PPP), and nearly twice as many under $2. Thus, 800-900 million Indians live in conditions that most developed-world citizens would consider destitution.

The challenges for this vast, voiceless majority are multidimensional and stark. Discrimination by caste, religion, and gender remains pervasive. Low literacy blocks meaningful social mobility. India's rate of child malnutrition is greater than in any other country in the world. In many communities, the sick and the elderly are left to die for lack of means to support them, and bonded slavery is not unheard of.

What's worse, there is some evidence that conditions for the least privileged are deteriorating. A paper by public policy researchers Anirudh Krishna and Devendra Bajpai points out that rural incomes are declining in absolute terms, likely due to systemic stresses to agriculture and differential access to markets and education. It is common to speak of "two Indias," and the widening canyon between them is the greatest threat to the nation's well-being.

What does the future hold? Much depends on how energetically the fruits of the country's success are applied towards greater equality of opportunity. The government's rural employment guarantee act is a start, despite its flaws. Healthcare, agriculture extension, and other government services that accrue to poorer communities deserve far greater resources and attention. Outdated constraints on industries that employ low-skill labor must be relaxed. The country's vibrant civil society should continue to give voice to the marginalized. Most importantly, public education could use a budgetary boost and a management miracle.

The next ten years may hold a lesson for developed countries, as well. With the world's largest democracy in the embrace of a freer-than-free market capitalism, India may prove a bellwether for liberal societies everywhere.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: GAP on February 21, 2012, 17:11:58
The Atlantic on the "Two India" problem. This is a difficult issue given the various divisions in Indian society, but there are lots of different initiatives (ranging from sub $100 laptops for children to new cooking stoves that don't require animal dung as fuel, and lots of things in between [agricultural improvements, microloans etc.]).

How it plays out will be very important to the stability of India and the region; we can help by pushing free trade with India and broadening and deepening social, political and economic links between our countries:

The other side of that is the insane corruption in India and others that just defeats a level playing field......
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on July 09, 2012, 13:49:57
Growing signs of cooperation between India and Saudi Arabia. This could be both an interesting opportunity for India, or a possible threat (getting entangled in the various regional conflicts). As noted, India has had a long history of economic involvment with the region in the past (Oman comes to mind), so extending their connections here is probably a good thing overall:

Saudi Shocks Paks With Pro-India Turn

In steps that point to Saudi Arabia’s concerns about Pakistan’s unsustainable national course, its fears of Iran and its renewed interest in its security relationship with the United States, the Washington Post reports that Saudi Arabia is stepping up its cooperation with Indian authorities on the sensitive question of Pakistani or Indian nationals suspected of terror activities and hiding in Saudi Arabia — in some cases people who are traveling on false documents apparently provided by people with access to the resources of the Pakistani state.

The highest profile case is that of Sayed Zabiuddin Ansari, an Indian citizen implicated in the Mumbai attacks. Known as Abu Jundal, he is an Indian citizen whose voice was allegedly heard on phone calls relaying instructions during the Mumbai terror incident. He was in Saudi Arabia on a Pakistani passport, and his handover to the Indians could not be more embarrassing for the Paks. Fasih Mehmood, another alleged Indian terrorist living in Saudi Arabia with Pakistani papers has also been arrested; he may soon follow Abu Jundal back home for interrogation and trial.

The Saudis are doing India some other favors as well, reports the Post. They want India’s help in putting pressure on Iran, and are helping India replace any oil lost as a result of declining purchases from what Saudi thinks of as the hated Persian heretics. There is even talk of Saudi good offices being used to help India expand its commercial networks in the Arab world. Historically, the Indian subcontinent had close economic links with the Arabs, and a revival of those connections would help India’s economy and partially offset China’s rising profile.

The Saudis are pretty good at foreign policy, and this shift seems to reflect several calculations.

The Saudis are really, really worried about Iran. Helping steer India away from reflexive “non-aligned” third world opposition to western power projection in the region helps clear the path for what many Saudis deeply hope will be an effective western military strike that puts Iran in its place.
The Saudis don’t like radical terrorism. Worries about Al-Qaeda at home and in neighboring Yemen have killed any illusions some Saudis may have had about terror groups. The Saudi state is theologically hardline but geopolitically moderate. It worries about Pakistan’s connections with terror groups and would like Pakistan to distance itself from groups whose violence endangers the Saudis at home.

The fears of terrorism, Iran and the Arab Spring have led the Saudis to put new importance on their relationship with the US. From the Saudi point of view, with Europe weak and China very far away, the US is the only possible ally that can help the Saudis with the problems that keep them up at night. Helping India with terrorism and to pull it away from Iran pleases Washington but also strengthens the configuration of forces that the Saudi authorities think are best placed to protect their state and their regime.

But it’s as important to understand what this isn’t as to see what it is. The Saudis are not turning their backs on Pakistan completely. Ties between the two countries are extremely deep. These two Sunni Islamic states that were aligned with Washington during the Cold War and that cooperated against the Soviets in Afghanistan have a lot of history together. Many observers believe that the Saudis provided financial support and other assistance in Pakistan’s nuclear program, and there are many indications that a range of prominent Pakistani politicians nurture close links with the Saudis, links from which they derive substantial benefits of various kinds. This isn’t going anywhere, but we can expect the Saudis to use their influence to try to cool Pakistan’s ardor for using radical groups as instruments of policy.

Second, this has nothing to do with liberalism, religious moderation or democracy. A diplomatic opening to secular, democratic India doesn’t mean that women are going to get permission to drive cars in Riyadh. If anything, it may mean the opposite. When Saudi leaders take a controversial foreign policy decision that offends pious clerics at home, they often balance this by making concessions to the clerics over social policy. There is a long history in Islamic political practice of giving the ruler a free hand in foreign affairs as long as the government supports Islamic principles and practice at home; the Saudi state is pretty careful to honor its end of the bargain.

Abu Jundal’s voice was allegedly heard giving instructions to the Mumbai attackers on a phone call from Pakistan. Pakistani authorities are not at all happy that his next public remarks will be made in a courtroom in India.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on July 30, 2012, 18:24:06
The scale and scope of the crisis is pretty impressive, the affected population is about the combined population of Canada and the United States. Of course many Indians are used to the grid being overloaded and shut down, and many hospitals, government offices and business have back up generators, but modernizing and hardening the grid should become one of the high priority efforts of the Indian government:

370M Indians swelter in heat after power fails
Associated Press
Indian power failure puts 370M in dark for hours
370M Indians swelter in heat after power fails

NEW DELHI (AP) -- Northern India's power grid crashed Monday, halting trains, forcing hospitals and airports onto backup power and providing a dark reminder of the nation's inability to feed a growing hunger for energy as it strives to become an economic power.

While the midsummer outage was unique in its reach - it hit 370 million people, more than the population of the United States and Canada combined - its impact was softened by Indians' familiarity with almost daily blackouts of varying duration. Hospitals and major businesses have backup generators that seamlessly kick in during power cuts, and upscale homes are hooked to backup systems powered by truck batteries.

Nonetheless, some small businesses were forced to shut for the day. Buildings were without water because the pumps weren't working, and the vaunted New Delhi Metro, with 1.8 million daily riders, was paralyzed during the busy morning commute.

"This will obviously get worse," said Subhash Chawla, a 65-year-old retiree who took the Metro once power was restored. "Unless the Metro has a separate power supply, it will be chaos in the future."

The grid feeds the nation's breadbasket in Punjab, the war-wracked region of Kashmir, the burgeoning capital of New Delhi, the Dalai Lama's Himalayan headquarters in Dharmsala, and the world's most populous state, poverty-stricken Uttar Pradesh.

By late morning, less than nine hours after the outage started, most of the affected areas had their power back, officials said.

By evening, 15 hours after the outage began, officials said full power had been restored.

Many chafed at the inconvenience.

Amit Naik, a toy maker in New Delhi, was forced to close his workshop for the day.

"There was no water, so my machine couldn't run. Other people had the same difficulties," he said.

The Confederation of Indian Industry said the outage was a reminder of the urgent need for the government to fix the power sector, ensure a steady supply of coal for power plants and reform the electricity utilities.

Transmission and distribution losses in some states are as much as 50 percent because of theft and corruption by employees in the power industry. India's Central Electricity Authority reported power deficits of about 8 percent in recent months.

Power Minister Sushil Kumar Shinde deflected criticism, pointing out that the United States and Brazil also had huge power failures in recent years.

"I ask you to look at the power situation in other countries as well," he said.

The blackout, the worst to hit India in a decade, began about 2:30 a.m. when the grid covering eight northern states crashed. Officials in Uttar Pradesh, where the problem was believed to have begun, said the grid could not keep up with the huge demand for power in the hot summer.

But Shinde said he was not sure exactly what caused the collapse and had formed a committee to investigate.

The power outage left millions sweltering in the summer heat. Muslim families were forced to eat their pre-dawn meals by candlelight before beginning their daytime Ramadan fast. "It was really difficult," said farmer Mohammed Zaman.

As officials struggled to get the grid back on line, they drew power from the neighboring eastern and western grids as well as hydroelectric power from the small neighboring mountain kingdom of Bhutan.

New Delhi residents were roused from sleep when their fans and air conditioners stopped, and came out of their homes in the heat as the entire city turned dark. Temperatures in the city were in the mid-30s C (90s F) with 89 percent humidity.

Some trains across the northern region were stranded when their electric engines failed. Others were delayed by hours as they were hooked to diesel engines.

The failure was the first time since 2001 that the northern grid had collapsed. But India's demand for electricity has soared since then as its population and economy have grown sharply.

But any connection to the grid remains a luxury for many. One-third of India's households do not even have electricity to power a light bulb, according to last year's census.

The power deficit was worsened by a weak monsoon that lowered hydroelectric generation and kept temperatures higher, further increasing electricity usage as people seek to cool off. Shivpal Singh Yadav, the power minister in Uttar Pradesh, home to 200 million people, said that while demand during peak hours hits 11,000 megawatts, the state can only provide 9,000 megawatts.

Uttar Pradesh Power Corp. chief Avnish Awasthi blamed the grid collapse on states drawing more than their allotted power to meet the summer demand.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on August 01, 2012, 12:30:58
India's ongoing issues with the power grid can be traced back to politics, corruption and inefficiency. As Instapundit noted: "Bad government is expensive. But bad governors don’t care, because they’re getting theirs"

Huge blackout fuels doubts about India’s economic ambitions
By Simon Denyer and Rama Lakshmi, Updated: Wednesday, August 1, 5:10 AM

NEW DELHI — Power was restored in India on Wednesday after two days of blackouts that had cast a huge shadow over the nation’s economic ambitions.

On Tuesday, the overburdened electrical grid had collapsed across the whole of northern and eastern India, depriving more than half the country, or around 600 million people, of power. It was the largest blackout in global history in terms of the number of people affected — about 10 percent of the world population.

“Superpower India, RIP,” said the banner headline in The Economic Times newspaper.

The crisis had reinforced concerns that industry leaders had been raising for years — that the nation’s horribly inefficient power sector could undermine its long-term economic ambitions.

More generally, it sharpened fears about India’s failure to invest in the infrastructure needed to support its rapidly growing economy, in sharp contrast to neighboring China. It also destroyed any lingering hope that the nation’s entrepreneurial spirit and vibrant private sector could somehow deliver a significantly brighter future without a dramatic improvement in the way the country is governed.

“As one of the emerging economies of the world, which is home to almost a sixth of the world population, it is imperative that our basic infrastructure requirements are in keeping with India’s aspirations,” Chandrajit Banerjee, director general of the Confederation of Indian Industry, said in a statement Tuesday. “The developments of yesterday and today have created a huge dent in the country’s reputation that is most unfortunate.”

Tuesday’s blackout, which hit the northern and eastern parts of the country, brought more than 500 trains screeching to a halt, left thousands of passengers stuck for nearly an hour inside the capital’s Metro line and trapped more than 200 miners underground.

There was gridlock on many streets in the capital as traffic lights stopped working. Bank ATMs also failed, but airports and major industries were unaffected, switching instantly to backup generators in a country used to power outages.

Power Minister Veerappa Moily said Wednesday that electricity had been fully restored in the 20 affected states.

Along with a lack of investment in infrastructure, the crisis also had roots in many of India’s familiar failings: the populist tone of much of its politics, rampant corruption and poor management in its government and public sector, weak law enforcement, and a maze of regulations that restrict many industries.

Officials said they did not know what caused the blackout Tuesday, although a similar failure Monday was blamed on individual states drawing too much power from the grid, in defiance of regulations.

“It is open lawbreaking that goes on all the time in India,” said a Power Ministry official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the subject. “This time, it went beyond limits.”

The official said the national coalition government is unable to rein in powerful state chief ministers on whose support it often depends.

“We are powerless to enforce grid discipline like they do in developed countries of the world,” he said. “There are political constraints. We are even afraid to name the [offending] states. But what happened yesterday and today is a warning for all of us.”

Moily, who was appointed power minister in a cabinet reshuffle Tuesday, said his first priority was to stabilize the grid, and then to work out a proper strategy to stop the problems recurring. He said he did not want to start apportioning blame, but that “discipline” had to be enforced.

“We are very proud, we have an excellent system,” he said. “Maybe there were certain localized features.”

‘Politically correct prices’

Most Indian consumers receive heavily subsidized electricity, while farmers get free power, supposedly to pump groundwater to irrigate their land. But officials say much of the free power is illegally diverted to factories. That has left the grid overburdened and electricity-distribution companies heavily in debt.

“India’s basic energy shortage is compounded by the policy of selling electricity to consumers at politically correct prices,” the Hindustan Times wrote in an editorial. “The government-owned distribution monopolies in the states have all but lost their ability to buy power because their political bosses force them to sell it cheap, sometimes free, to voters.”

Sajjid Chinoy, India economist at JPMorgan in Mumbai, put it more simply: “When you don’t have economically viable pricing, you will not have economically viable power generation,” he said.

India suffers a power deficit of 8 to 12 percent in peak periods, and power cuts of eight hours a day are common in many parts of the country. A quarter of the population, 300 million people, has no access to electricity at all.

Ranvir Singh Solanki, a 42-year-old neurosurgeon, said he had been forced to postpone surgery on an accident victim after his diesel-powered generator ran out of fuel. Baleshar Ray, a 55-year-old dairy farmer on the outskirts of Delhi, said he had been unable to bathe, wash clothes or pump water for his cows and buffaloes to drink.

“We live in a village, but our village is so close to the capital that we have never faced such problems before,” he said. “If this can happen to the capital, then what can we say about the smaller villages and towns in India?”

Even though India has the world’s fifth-largest reserves of coal, disputes over environmental and land permits have kept many new mines from opening, while a lack of investment in technology has prevented output from growing to keep up with demand.

Existing mines have strict limits on how much coal they can extract, supposedly to safeguard the environment but in practice simply arbitrary, said U. Kumar, an expert on coal who advises some of India’s top industry leaders. A six-month-old Coal Ministry proposal to raise those limits by 20 percent as an emergency measure has “fallen on deaf ears,” he said.

As a result, about 10 percent of power plants have no coal supply right now, Kumar said. “We are going to face a frightening scenario,” he added. “It is going to be very difficult to meet the demand of our people.”

To meet some of the shortfall, India has been forced to import expensive coal from abroad, but it is politically unable to pass those higher costs on to consumers, bankrupting the sector still further.

Losses in electricity transmission and distribution are also among the world’s highest, 24 to 40 percent, because of inefficiencies and theft.

A constraint to growth

Indian economic growth has slowed to around 6 percent, while inflation is in double digits. That is a sign, Chinoy said, that investment by the public and private sectors has not kept up with the country’s consumption-led boom of recent years, inhibiting the economy’s ability to sustain rapid growth without pushing up prices.

“The biggest constraint to India’s growth potential is lack of capacity,” he said, “and the biggest single constraint to growth is the lack of available and adequate power supply.”

On Tuesday, a senior power official in the northern state of Uttar Pradesh, Avinash Awasthi, was transferred for failing to prevent Monday’s blackout. But officials found no obvious scapegoat for the second day’s failure.

“We are absolutely clueless why this has happened again today,” Shakti Sinha, an official in the power department of the Delhi government, said Tuesday. “Yesterday we knew it was overdrawing of power; today it looks like a technical fault. The system failed somewhere.”

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on November 05, 2012, 07:43:14
Canada is still working on more trade with India. While this article suggests we don't have a lot of economic interests in common, the sheer size of the Indian economy suggests the effort is still well worth our while:

Don’t expect much from Indian mission

Eugene Beaulieu, Special to Financial Post | Nov 2, 2012 9:28 PM ET

India won’t allow market access

Prime Minister Stephen Harper is leading a mission to India today. On this, his second official visit to India, Harper will meet with the prime minister of India, Manmohan Singh, with the goal of strengthening trade and investment links between the two countries. In fact, the two countries have been negotiating a trade agreement known as the Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement (CEPA) since November 2010.

The case for Canada to pursue a comprehensive trade agreement with India appears to be ironclad. India is a large and rapidly growing economy with the second-largest population and 10th largest GDP in the world. India is open for business and began economic reforms to liberalize trade and investment, deregulate industry and privatize state-owned enterprises in the early 1990s. Moreover, India is a democracy and shares a colonial past with Canada. It seems like India has all the right ingredients for Canada to make the CEPA a priority. 

So, what can Canada really expect from these negotiations? Unfortunately, not much.

Prompted by demands from the International Monetary Fund (IMF), India undertook major economic reforms in the 1990s. The reforms brought India into the global economy in a major way, and the country quickly became a regional and global economic juggernaut. Prior to the reforms, India was not an open economy, with imports representing about 8% of GDP throughout the 1980s and as late as 1992. Exports hovered around 5% or 6% of GDP throughout the 1980s. After the reforms, trade grew at an even faster rate than the rapidly expanding Indian economy. By 2000, imports had reached 14% of GDP and had reached 22% by 2005. In 2011, imports into India reached 30% of GDP. Exports underwent a similar transformation, reaching 20% of GDP by 2000 and 25% of GDP in 2011.

Notwithstanding all of these success and growth stories, it is still difficult to be optimistic in expecting much to come out of the mission to India. Currently, the two countries are not what one would consider “natural” trading partners. The relatively low levels of economic integration are not the natural result of significant protectionism or policy-induced barriers to trade. Barriers have already come down significantly, and Canada’s trade and investment relations with India have grown, but have lagged behind India’s relations with larger and closer countries. Trade negotiations between Canada and India have been underway for two years now and seem to be going nowhere, fast, with the two countries seemingly on different pages when it comes to their respective goals for the agreement. One of Canada’s goals is to improve Canadian market access into India, something India has no interest in. Canada is also interested in negotiating the liberalization of services and procurement. Again, these are off the table as far as India is concerned. On the other hand, one of India’s goals is to improve the movement into Canada of people providing services.

Overall, our economic relationship is not very strong, which likely reflects geographic distance and the lack of complementary economic interests — rather than government policies limiting trade and investment between the two countries. Based on past economic missions of the sort happening next week, it is unlikely that much will be achieved during next week’s mission, other than possible individual deals forged between interested business partners.

India has a long list of countries it is negotiating trade deals with, and Canada is well down on the list of Indian priorities. Canada might be better off focusing its efforts on completing its trade negotiations with the EU and on its pursuit of membership in the Trans-Pacific Partnership.

Financial Post

Eugene Beaulieu is program director, international economics,
at the School of Public Policy at the University of Calgary.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on November 05, 2012, 07:56:12
Most people, including Eugene Beaulieu at the Financial Post, are mesmerized by immediate results. As reported, this trip to India will, most likely, not produce major results, but Thucydides has hit the key point: India is a HUGE and still growing market (albeit with problems) and we want access to it. India is neither as impenetrable nor as aggressive as China but it matters, too, and, like China, it needs to be courted. What we are seeing is a step in that courtship ritual, a 'dance' which must be done in full view of both "prizes:" appealing to each while not alienating either. Despite some missteps in 2006/07, the Harper government is, now, firmly on course to joining the Pacific, just as we were joined by the Atlantic for all of the 19th and 20th centuries. But the process will take time ~ and we have lots of competition: notably from Australia and the USA.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on November 05, 2012, 08:02:06
And, as if to emphasize the importance of the old military principle of "maximum concurrent activity," David Aiken files a story about the 'other' aim of the trip to India: to shore up or improve the Conservatives' hold on the South Asian vote here in Canada (

Many Asian Canadian voters, especially East and South Asians, remain very interested in how Canada deals with their ancestral homes; "good" visits to China and India, visits which receive favourable coverage by the ethnic media - here and there - can pay dividends at the polls in 2015.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on December 10, 2012, 12:04:49
It is often noted that corruption is one of the factors (if not the key factor) holding India back. This BBC piece points out how various flaws in the property market support or encourage corruption. Oddly, the possible answer is from the Peruvian economist Hernando De Soto, who pointed out that when property ownership was not correctly accounted for or accountable, then literaly bilions of dollars of potential capital was "dead". This problem will take decades to resolve, but since local governments have a great deal of autonomy, it may be possible to see a few pockets where these problems are tackled:

India: Why land is at the centre of all scandals

By Alam Srinivas
Business analyst

India's real estate sector is one of the worst offenders for generating illegal money

Recent estimates indicate that the size of India's shadow economy may vary from 25% to 50% of the country's annual gross domestic product (GDP).

Among the 176 nations ranked in Transparency International's Corruption Perception Index (2012), India stood at 94, which was a lot worse than Brazil and China.

India's property sector is possibly the worst offender. Barun Mitra, the founder and director of the Delhi-based Liberty Institute, has calculated that all the land transactions, including those related to natural resources like mining, generate $20bn (£12.54bn) to $40bn of illegal money each year.

That equals 1%-2% of the GDP.

This is also evident from recent allegations made by activist-turned-politician Arvind Kejriwal about links between the Congress Party president Sonia Gandhi's son-in-law Robert Vadra and the country's biggest real estate developer, DLF.

Here are five reasons why the real estate sector contributes so much to the black economy in India.


A government report concluded that the shortage of residential houses in urban India would rise from 24.71 million in 2007 to 26.53 million in 2012.

In addition, there is a huge pent-up demand for commercial spaces and land for building factories and huge infrastructure projects such as roads, ports and power plants.

Despite the huge scarcity of real estate, thousands of owners hoard properties and are reluctant to sell because they expect prices to rise in the near future.

The combination of a demand-supply mismatch and speculative urge provides opportunities for bribery.

Experts believe that a majority of real estate deals have "white" and "black" components, which implies that a part of the price - up to 50% in some cases - is paid in cash to avoid paying tax.


For both the buyer and seller of property, the taxes are too high. In many cases they can rise above 10% of the value of the property.

While the buyer pays a tax to register the land in their name, the seller has to pay capital gains on the difference between the purchase and sale prices.

So there is an incentive on both sides to understate the price in a bid to avoid the taxes, and pay the difference between actual and declared values in illegal money.

However, the government hopes to correct this distortion. Under a new bill to establish a central property regulator, the cost of land registration may be reduced to 5%.


In his book, The Mystery of Capital, Hernando de Soto has argued that a principal reason why capitalism does not work in developing and under-developed nations is because the ownership rights of land and property "are not adequately recorded".

Hence, "these assets cannot readily be turned into capital". By contrast, in the developed nations like the US, "every parcel of land, every building is represented in a legally binding property document".

It can take a builder three to four years to get official paperwork for a project
Land records in India are opaque, stored in inaccessible places, and most of the ownership is disputed either in a court of law or because of family fights.

The lack of trustworthy online ownership data and the use of incomplete documents make it difficult for both buyers and sellers to enter into property transactions with complete confidence.

Thus, there is a tendency among sellers with disputed records to demand payments in cash.

The only buyers who can enter such a market are those with access to illegal money.

Now, the government has proposed that only those states that have their land records online can access central funds for welfare schemes like the Jawaharlal Nehru National Urban Renewal Mission.


Although every city and town has its master plan, which designates areas meant for agriculture, residences and offices, these can be arbitrarily changed at any given time by the local authorities.

Thanks to such official discretionary powers, there is a tendency among builders, estate agents and powerful individuals to abuse political patronage to change the land use of their properties.

As is indicated from the allegations made against Mr Vadra, changing land use from agricultural to commercial can treble and quadruple its price within a few months.

Similarly, there are huge opportunities to buy land in advance near an upcoming highway or metro train track, whose value is likely to multiply once the project comes through.

Here too, political links help to know the status of such projects in advance.

These anomalies lead to under-the-table payments and bribes to grab such favours.


To complete a sizeable property project, any builder in India has to get almost 60 approvals, produce about 175 documents, and deal with 40 central, state and local government departments.

Estimates indicate it may take a builder three to four years to complete the official paperwork and get all the requisite bureaucratic clearances.

There is, therefore, a tendency to pay bribes to politicians and bureaucrats to speed up the process.

At the same time, individual sellers who are unable to deal with the red tape demand their pound of flesh in cash payments so that they can evade taxes and earn extra bucks.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Colin P on January 31, 2013, 12:11:54
In light of the previous post, an article on the future of mapping and GIS in India

Major General Kaliprasad Kotagal (Retd.) on evolution of the mapping industry in India

Major General Kaliprasad Kotagal (Retd.) former Additional Surveyor General, shares his views on the evolution of the geospatial industry in India.

 1. Can you share your views on the transition in the Survey of India over the last 3-4 decades?
Initially raised as arm of the military, Survey of India has made a tremendous progress in terms of technology development in the domain of field survey, data /capture, manpower training and data storage. The organization has expanded being data provider for disaster management, urban planning etc. Today, Census of India, Election Commission, NRLMP, infrastructure projects etc. all are using SoI stats. In the field of earth science it is responsible for providing tide data for a large port area from Suez to Singapore. It is also sharing data with Indian National Center for Ocean Information Services (INCOIS) on various platforms.
2. What do you consider as milestones for the Indian mapping and surveying industry over the last couple of decades?
The Indian mapping from the period of first surveyor general Major James Rennell to the present Surveyor General Dr. Swarna Subbarao, the milestones are plenty . After independence there was a huge demand of data for developmental project. Hence,surveys and metrication of basic map scale from 1” to 1 Mile to 1: 50,000 was undertaken. The Survey of India (SoI) adopted various techniques in the modernization of field control instruments, photogrammetry, cartography and printing. Accordingly, the training at Survey Training Institute changed. The new technologies were adopted by Government of India and the task force was set up to go into the details of computerization in the Survey of India in early 1981- 1983 and the automated cartography cell in R&D of SoI started to explore the automation. Subsequently, modern cartographic centre came into establishment. The systems like AUTOMAP came into being for storing data in digital form and to draw the maps on demand. The Survey of India switched gear in around 1986 to adopt digital mapping technology with the establishment of three digital mapping centres to go into and established standard operating procedures in symbols, map layouts and digital vector data formats. The National Cartographic Data Base Structure was adopted keeping in view the user demands. The 1: 250,000 and 1: 50,000 mapping of data in digital format has been completed and by adopting the New Map Policy Open Series Maps (OSM) and Defense Series Maps (DSM) in the year 2005, with a view the availability of maps to the public has been made easy. The Survey of India based on the user geospatial demand adopted new strategies and organized in 2002 into State Geospatial Data Centre, NGDC, GIS & RS, B&P were established around 2003. Survey of India joined the Antarctica expedition (the tenth ) in 1990. GPS technology was adopted in around 1990. The work of establishing the new “horizontal” and redefinition of Indian Vertical Datum were taken up at the same time. Under this program 17,000 linear Km of fore leveling was completed and back leveling with gravity observations were done during 2006.Gravimetric method using both dense network of terrestrial gravity data and global geopotential model were adopted. An important project was the establishment of GCP LIBRARY PROJECT AND MODERNIZATION AND EXPANSION OF INDIAN TIDE GAUGE NETWORK AND REAL time information on tide, current, temperature, pressure was collected by establishing satellite technology and establishing of National Tidal Data Centre and Andaman & Nicobar Islands were connected for Tsunami warning.
3. What you think about 1:10K mapping by Survey of India?
The government of India  decision and subsequent meetings at task force under  Dr. Shailesh Nayak , Secretary ,MOES, as chairman and other 9 members was constituted in 2009 to bring out a standard methodology for mapping on 1:10K scale to be carried out by survey of India. The positional accuracy should be 2.5; vertical interval of 2m and DEM of accuracy of 1m is required. The data model structure was developed by Survey of India, Andra Pradesh State Remote Sensing Centre (APSRAC), Karnataka State Council for Science and Technology (KSCST) and Jawaharlal Nehru Technological University (JNTU). A pilot project and few maps have been prepared and released. The present initiatives of Survey of India, 1:10K mapping is aimed at addressing needs of industry and government departments. The PPP mode of working is also visualized by the present Surveyor General which is in the interest of the country to speed up the work. The present thinking is NRSC, SOI ANS APSRAC will together prepare these maps. The required budget is being sought from Department of Science & Technology.
4. What is your view on the National Land Records Modernisation Programme (NRLMP)?
The National Land Records Modernization Programme (NLRMP) was launched by Government of India in 2008, to modernize management of land records, minimize scope of land disputes  and enhance transparency in the land records sale ,purchase and to give titles to all immovable properties in the country. The major works of the project are computerization of all land records including mutations, digitization of maps and integration of text and spatial data, updating of all survey and settlement records including creation of original cadastral records wherever necessary, computerization of registration and its integration with the land records maintenance system, development of core Geospatial Information System (GIS) and capacity building. This is a very time consuming project and along with this a survey act is necessary defining all legal aspects.
5. What is more important technological or social intervention to help create map based land records?
It is social intervention followed by technology. There must by a social acceptance to the change in all aspects of survey and updating and mutation. Few states in India have attempted this with varying degree of success.
6. According to you, what role industry can play in large scale mapping and survey?
Industry can play a very big role. However I find the industry is concentrating only on government segment and very little effort is being done in research suited to our country. In addition, except for few institutions others are clueless about mapping. I feel industry must sponsor free organized workshops at college level.
7. Can you provide the overview on the evolution of geospatial industry and how do you perceive the future of the industry in India?
Geospatial industry has played so far a very good role in bringing the technology to this country.  The big players have exploited the early catch.  The computers came around 1980 and the things we all see like PDA, mobile, and other electronic gadgets / communication were scientific fictions have become reality.. Then came the electronic measuring devices and GPS TECHNOLOGY. This revolutionized into GNSS , wireless communication , space technology , advancement in photogrammetry in to digital environment and having seen them, came GIS technology . Imageries, aerial photos became a house hold talk; Google changed the look of the common man. The LiDAR and CLOUD  are going to change the geospatial scenario ,new challenges of space , time and economics in 3D to 5D and more in GIS may take us to the endless limits.The technology was largely used by government and the assimilation in government is slow. Let us use the early technology and bring results. If the industry can step in convenience the system in PPP mode it will be good. I would like to mention the good work being done by NSDI in all aspects of GIS and spread of technology to other user organizations.
About Maj Gen Kaliprasad Kotgal (Retd.): He has nearly four decades of service at Survey of India, from where he retired as Additional Surveyor General. During this professional service he looked after topographical survey and mapping, large scale mapping using photogrammetry, planning control and survey etc. He holds a graduate degree in Civil Engineering from U V C E , Bangalore University.

article from
Title: INS Arihant, India's nuclear-powered submarine, to be operational soon
Post by: S.M.A. on May 07, 2013, 19:33:10

In a big step towards securing India's nuclear deterrence capabilities, the reactor on board the indigenously built nuclear-powered submarine INS Arihant is set to become operational within three weeks.  

The submarine, which is over 100 metres long, has been undergoing trials in Visakhapatnam for the last three years.

Dr VK Saraswat, the chief of the Defence Research and Development Organisation or DRDO, shared these exclusive details with NDTV.

more at this link (
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on May 08, 2013, 12:51:29
An infographic of the INS ARIHANT:

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on May 12, 2013, 18:30:24
I wonder if this isn't an opportunity for Canada's Indian diaspora. The combination of education, exposure to Canadian and Western culture and norms could provide Canadians an edge in project management and other ways to maximize investment return in projects in India (or tap Indian investment and trade with Canada). Overcoming poor education and corrupt officialdom are the two keys for Inda's future:

Is India wasting the world's biggest economic opportunity ?

In the past 35 years, hundreds of millions of Chinese have found productive, if often exhausting, work in the country’s growing cities. This extraordinary mobilisation of labour is the biggest economic event of the past half-century. The world has seen nothing on such scale before. Will it see anything like it again?

India is an ancient civilisation but a youthful country. Its working-age population is rising by about 12m people a year, even as China’s shrank last year by 3m. Within a decade India will have the biggest potential workforce in the world.

Corruption, Inept Leadership, Inflation, and Bad Education

Although India’s dreamers have faith in its youth, the country’s youngsters have growing reason to doubt India. The economy raised aspirations that it has subsequently failed to meet. From 2005 to 2007 it grew by about 9% a year. In 2010 it even grew faster than China (if the two economies are measured consistently). But growth has since halved. India’s impressive savings rate, the other side of the demographic dividend, has also slipped. Worryingly, a growing share of household saving is bypassing the financial system altogether, seeking refuge from inflation in gold, bricks and mortar.

What India lacks is a Mittelstand of midsized, labour-hungry firms. Even during the boom years, it created many more jobs in construction than in manufacturing. It is hard for India’s young to raise their sights when they are carrying bricks on their heads.

To fill this “missing middle” the government should remove some of the bureaucratic bricks that now weigh on the heads of India’s entrepreneurs. These include India’s notorious labour laws which, on paper, prevent factories firing anyone without the state’s permission. It is true that by hiring labour from third parties the country’s employers have blunted the law’s effect. But in so doing they have also blunted their own incentive to train their workers—and lead to more abuse.

And a lot of training is required. Many of India’s young leave school ill-prepared even for rudimentary jobs. Standards are stagnant, even slipping. By their fifth year of schooling, only half of rural pupils can solve a calculation like 43 minus 24, according to the Annual Status of Education Report. Barely a quarter can read an English sentence like “What is the time?”

This is an extract from a much longer article:|hig|5-9-2013|5681828|36448386|NA
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Colin P on June 11, 2013, 15:00:09
So India is now planning in getting into the Icebreaking business. On the bright side expect Curry houses North of 60 (and south of the other 60)

NEW DELHI: India is in the process of acquiring an icebreaker for a whopping Rs.800 crore ($144 million) for conducting scientific and business exploration in the polar regions.

The Ministry of Earth Sciences has submitted a proposal to the government and is likely to get a go ahead by the end of 2013, Shailesh Nayak, secretary in the ministry, said.

 The hi-tech ship that can cut through 1.5-2 metre thick ice is equipped with several laboratories for carrying out experiments in the Arctic and in Antarctica. It will be custom built for India.

"We are in the process of acquiring an icebreaker ship for carrying out exploration in the polar region. We have the design ready about what kind of ship we need and what facility and labs we need," Nayak said.

"The ship would cost somewhere around Rs. 800-900 crore. We have to go through a long process of approvals and hopefully we will get the final approval by this year. Our estimate as of now is that we should be able to get it by the end of 2016," he said.

While India is in the process of acquiring, China has commissioned a new polar ice-breaker, its second after the Xuelong, or snow dragon.

Besides scientific interests, both India and China have business interests related to mineral resources, fisheries and shorter sea routes in the Arctic.

India has one research station in the Arctic, Himadri, and three in Antarctica.

Explaining India's interest behind buying the ship, Nayak said: "This signifies that we are serious about studying changes in climate change happening in the polar regions. Right now for experiments, we hire or charter the ships from private parties in Russia and Norway for short durations."

"Scientists have to collect a lot of data to study the changes happening in the region. With this ship you can take long cruises as it has a capability of 45 days' endurance and cut through not very thick but 1.5-2 metre ice. If you have thin layer of ice you can cut it and go there and take measurements," he said.

Indian scientists can then carry experiments like studying change in the ocean temperature and how the temperature and salinity vary in different areas.

"Based on that you can find the structure of currents in the ocean and how it has changed during the course of time," he said.

The ship can be used in North Pole and South Pole as both have opposite summer season, he said.

"Basically the idea is that we should be able to use the ship round the year and if you can't use it round the year, then investment is not justified. So we can use the ship for six months in Antarctica and for the same period in the Arctic," he said.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on June 20, 2013, 09:36:58
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing proisions of the Copyright Act from the New York Times is an interesting article by Nobel laureate Amartya Sen:
Why India Trails China


Published: June 19, 2013

CAMBRIDGE, Mass. — MODERN India is, in many ways, a success. Its claim to be the world’s largest democracy is not hollow. Its media is vibrant and free; Indians buy more newspapers every day than any other nation. Since independence in 1947, life expectancy at birth has more than doubled, to 66 years from 32, and per-capita income (adjusted for inflation) has grown fivefold. In recent decades, reforms pushed up the country’s once sluggish growth rate to around 8 percent per year, before it fell back a couple of percentage points over the last two years. For years, India’s economic growth rate ranked second among the world’s large economies, after China, which it has consistently trailed by at least one percentage point.

The hope that India might overtake China one day in economic growth now seems a distant one. But that comparison is not what should worry Indians most. The far greater gap between India and China is in the provision of essential public services — a failing that depresses living standards and is a persistent drag on growth.

Inequality is high in both countries, but China has done far more than India to raise life expectancy, expand general education and secure health care for its people. India has elite schools of varying degrees of excellence for the privileged, but among all Indians 7 or older, nearly one in every five males and one in every three females are illiterate. And most schools are of low quality; less than half the children can divide 20 by 5, even after four years of schooling.

India may be the world’s largest producer of generic medicine, but its health care system is an unregulated mess. The poor have to rely on low-quality — and sometimes exploitative — private medical care, because there isn’t enough decent public care. While China devotes 2.7 percent of its gross domestic product to government spending on health care, India allots 1.2 percent.

India’s underperformance can be traced to a failure to learn from the examples of so-called Asian economic development, in which rapid expansion of human capability is both a goal in itself and an integral element in achieving rapid growth. Japan pioneered that approach, starting after the Meiji Restoration in 1868, when it resolved to achieve a fully literate society within a few decades. As Kido Takayoshi, a leader of that reform, explained: “Our people are no different from the Americans or Europeans of today; it is all a matter of education or lack of education.” Through investments in education and health care, Japan simultaneously enhanced living standards and labor productivity — the government collaborating with the market.

Despite the catastrophe of Japan’s war years, the lessons of its development experience remained and were followed, in the postwar period, by South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore and other economies in East Asia. China, which during the Mao era made advances in land reform and basic education and health care, embarked on market reforms in the early 1980s; its huge success changed the shape of the world economy. India has paid inadequate attention to these lessons.

Is there a conundrum here that democratic India has done worse than China in educating its citizens and improving their health? Perhaps, but the puzzle need not be a brainteaser. Democratic participation, free expression and rule of law are largely realities in India, and still largely aspirations in China. India has not had a famine since independence, while China had the largest famine in recorded history, from 1958 to 1961, when Mao’s disastrous Great Leap Forward killed some 30 million people. Nevertheless, using democratic means to remedy endemic problems — chronic undernourishment, a disorganized medical system or dysfunctional school systems — demands sustained deliberation, political engagement, media coverage, popular pressure. In short, more democratic process, not less.

In China, decision making takes place at the top. The country’s leaders are skeptical, if not hostile, with regard to the value of multiparty democracy, but they have been strongly committed to eliminating hunger, illiteracy and medical neglect, and that is enormously to their credit.

There are inevitable fragilities in a nondemocratic system because mistakes are hard to correct. Dissent is dangerous. There is little recourse for victims of injustice. Edicts like the one-child policy can be very harsh. Still, China’s present leaders have used the basic approach of accelerating development by expanding human capability with great decisiveness and skill.

The case for combating debilitating inequality in India is not only a matter of social justice. Unlike India, China did not miss the huge lesson of Asian economic development, about the economic returns that come from bettering human lives, especially at the bottom of the socioeconomic pyramid. India’s growth and its earnings from exports have tended to depend narrowly on a few sectors, like information technology, pharmaceuticals and specialized auto parts, many of which rely on the role of highly trained personnel from the well-educated classes. For India to match China in its range of manufacturing capacity — its ability to produce gadgets of almost every kind, with increasing use of technology and better quality control — it needs a better-educated and healthier labor force at all levels of society. What it needs most is more knowledge and public discussion about the nature and the huge extent of inequality and its damaging consequences, including for economic growth.

Amartya Sen, a Nobel laureate, is a professor of economics and philosophy at Harvard. He is the author, with Jean Drèze, of “An Uncertain Glory: India and its Contradictions.”

So the lesson is not that democracy is flawed, the lesson is that economics matters and productive capitalism is going to beat failed socialism at making the lives of ordinary people better, faster.
Title: India boosts defense ties with Myanmar
Post by: S.M.A. on July 31, 2013, 08:56:32
India continues to court Burma/Myanmar, whose leaders seem to have closer ties to Beijing.  Recently, the Burmese allowed the PLA to open naval listening posts in some of Myanmar's Coco islands to keep track of Indian naval activity.

Defense News link (

NEW DELHI  — India —hoping to improve ties with Myanmar to counter the growing influence of China in the region — will help its neighbor build offshore patrol vessels (OPVs) and train the Myanmar troops at Indian military institutions.

The decision to build OPVs was reached Monday during talks between visiting Myanmar Navy chief Vice Adm. Thura Thet Swe and Indian Navy chief Adm. Devendra Kumar Joshi.

The Myanmar Navy chief also held talks with Indian Army chief Gen. Bikram Singh and Defence Secretary Radha Krishna Mathur.

The OPVs will be built at Indian shipyards and the training will be given to Myanmar Navy officers and sailors at Indian establishments. The Indian Defence Ministry refused to give details on the agreement, including which type of OPVs would be built, by whom and how many.

The Indian Defence Ministry is already considering a proposal by Myanmar to train their soldiers in variety of helicopters, including attack helicopters.

India has already supplied Myanmar with four Islander maritime patrol aircraft and naval gun boats.

India and Myanmar are also working on a road map on border management, a move seen by analysts here as an effort to check China’s entry into the Indian Ocean region.

China already has a military base on the Coco Islands, which are leased from Myanmar. The Coco Islands are close to India’s Andaman and Nicobar Islands in the Andaman Sea.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on July 31, 2013, 09:49:28
The countries in the region, including Myanmar, Bangladesh, Thailand, Malaysia, etc are likely, in my opinion, to try to be "friends" with both Cina and India and to try to play them off, one against the other, in terms of aid and trade. No one should want to make en enemy of either China or India.
Title: India's aircraft carrier program (2013 updates)
Post by: S.M.A. on August 10, 2013, 18:49:46
2 updates on India's carrier programs from Defense News (


NEW DELHI — While India claims that its first home-built carrier, the Vikrant, will be fully operational by 2018, Indian Navy sources say that date is closer to 2020 since the ship is only about 30 percent complete.

On Aug. 12, India’s first indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC-1) will be launched nearly four years behind schedule. The ship is being built by state-owned Cochin Shipyard Limited at Kochi in southern India.

The aircraft carrier will be floated out of dry dock, then redocked in order to mount the propulsion system. Work will then begin on the deck and the weapon systems before sea trials. And while Defence Ministry officials say those trials will begin by 2016, Indian Navy sources say it will not be before 2018-19.

“Launch merely means they will float the IAC-1 from the dry dock [to outfit the interior],, which includes laying of pipes, and after that it will be dry docked again for integration of propulsion systems,” an Indian Navy source said

Not only will Vikrant’s induction be delayed, but sources add that the total cost of the carrier will be more than US $5 billion, including the aircraft and weapons systems. When the project was approved in 2003, the ship was estimated to cost around $500 million. Sources said the construction of the carrier, minus the weapon systems and aircraft, will cost more than $2.2 billion.


Defense News 

In related news:

   Indian Aircraft Carrier Passes Engine Tests in Russian Sea Trials

 Read more:


A Russian-built aircraft carrier due to be delivered to the Indian Navy following a much-delayed refit has successfully passed engine tests during the first stage of final sea trials in the White Sea, shipbuilder Sevmash said Tuesday.

The current trials focused on the ship’s propulsion system and its ability to perform as required.
The aircraft carrier, named Vikramaditya, “showed excellent performance while being tested at various speeds,” a Sevmash spokesman said. “On Sunday, the ship attained a maximum speed of 29.2 knots.”

The Vikramaditya, which is already years past its original 2008 delivery date, was supposed to have been handed over to India on December 4, 2012, but initial sea trials in September revealed that the ship’s boilers were not fully functional.

The source of the problem, which reduced the ship’s maximum speed, was due to use of low-grade Chinese-made firebricks in the boiler insulation instead of asbestos, Russian shipbuilders said.
The boiler problems were fixed by Russian shipbuilders in February, Sevmash reported previously.

The Vikramaditya will now sail to the Barents Sea, where the ship will undertake working-up procedures including aircraft deck operations. Several MiG-29K fighters and two helicopters will be used in the flight trials.


Title: India on the brink of its own financial crisis
Post by: S.M.A. on August 21, 2013, 12:58:15
India on the brink of its own financial crisis


In a reprise of the 1997-98 Asian crisis, India's stock market is plunging, bond yields are nudging 10% and capital is flooding out of the country

India's financial woes are rapidly approaching the critical stage. The rupee has depreciated by 44% in the past two years and hit a record low against the US dollar on Monday. The stock market is plunging, bond yields are nudging 10% and capital is flooding out of the country.

In a sense, this is a classic case of deja vu, a revisiting of the Asian crisis of 1997-98 that acted as an unheeded warning sign of what was in store for the global economy a decade later. An emerging economy exhibiting strong growth attracts the attention of foreign investors. Inward investment comes in together with hot money flows that circumvent capital controls. Capital inflows push up the exchange rate, making imports cheaper and exports dearer. The trade deficit balloons, growth slows, deep-seated structural flaws become more prominent and the hot money leaves.


more: Guardian link (
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: tomahawk6 on September 08, 2013, 20:33:35
The same strategy that the PRC is using to take control of islands is being used to take territory from India.At some point conflict is going to occur.

September 6, 2013: Chinese violations of the LAC (Line of Actual Control) border with India continues. Most of the recent Chinese intrusions are in the northwest and have, in effect, taken control of 640 square kilometers of territory on the Indian side of the border. There are three separate areas where Chinese troops have made these incursions. In response, India announced it is expanding its network of border bases along the 3,488 kilometer Tibet frontier. Currently there are 150 of these small, fortified bases. Most (98) of these outposts will be enlarged and improved, while 35 new ones will be built over the next 4 years. Negotiations to settle the dispute are stalled.

The LAC is also known as the MacCartney-MacDonald Line and is the unofficial border between India and China. The LAC is 4,057 kilometers long and is mostly Tibet on the Chinese side. China claims a lot of  territory that is now considered part of India because when Tibet was independent in the early 20th century, Tibet agreed to the MacCartney-MacDonald Line. When China reconquered Tibet in the 1950s, that border agreement was renounced as “unfair”. China has never backed away from its claims on Indian territory and its violation of the LAC is a major crises for India (which has a defense budget one third that of China’s).

The Chinese believe that the Indians are militarily weaker and not willing to confront a gradual and persistent Chinese effort to take control of the contested area. Sometimes this attitudes shows up in the Chinese media. Over the last week Chinese state controlled media has been mocking the capabilities of the Indian Navy, using the August 14th explosion that sank a Russian built Indian Kilo class sub while docked near Mumbai as an example. The 16 year old submarine had recently returned from Russia after an $80 million refurbishment. 18 sailors were killed as the sub sank at dockside. The Chinese media also criticized the earlier launching of India’s first Indian built aircraft carrier as essentially foreign made because the vessel used French blueprints, Russian aircraft, and American engines. This harsh commentary ignored that fact that China has had similar problems with its warships in the recent past and that Chinese built warships use a lot of foreign technology (usually stolen). This public disparagement angered many Indians, and in response, India has cancelled the visit of a senior air force general, in response to a Chinese invitation last month.

India is alarmed at growing Chinese and Pakistani investment in neighboring Sri Lanka. Chinese firms are more experienced and effective at arranging these foreign investments and India’s smaller neighbor feels more comfortable with investment from distant China rather than neighbor (and sometimes big bully) India. The Chinese economic investments often have military implications, like China building satellite ground stations in Sri Lanka. There is also growing Sri Lankan military cooperation with China and Pakistan.

As a good will gesture, both nations meanwhile agreed to hold joint counter-terrorism drills in November. This would be the third time this has been done, although it hasn’t happened for the past five years because of the growing Chinese aggressiveness along the LAC. These counter-terrorism drills only involve 150 special operations troops from either country and are mostly for show.

Rural eastern India continues to suffer from a low-level war with Maoist rebels. These armed leftists have been involved in incidents that have left over 200 dead so far this year. For the last few years the Indian national police have been using a special force of nearly 100,000 para-military troops and civilians to destroy the Maoist organization (which has about 11,000 armed followers and 3 times as many unarmed supporters).

Both India and Pakistan share many cultural aspects, and one of them is widespread corruption. Not surprisingly, both nations share a widespread distaste for all this corruption. For that reason, many Pakistanis are watching with great interest the current anti-corruption movement in India. While many Indian and Pakistani leaders are content to exploit the corruption rather than seeking to eliminate it, this is changing in India. That gives hope to Pakistanis, because their leaders have displayed no real enthusiasm for actually doing something about corruption. In India a growing number of leaders are actually joining the anti-corruption drive. There is still a lot of resistance from Indian political leaders, in part because the anti-corruption movement seeks to punish senior people who are formally charged with corruption. In Pakistan such charges rarely do any damage to senior people who are prosecuted. The Indian anti-corruption effort is making progress against this sort of thing and that gives Pakistanis hope.

Recent revelations from stolen NSA documents detailed a secret effort by Pakistan to assassinate suspected terrorists without benefit of capture and trial. This sort of thing is no secret in Pakistan, where the campaign has been particularly active against Baluchi tribal rebels and separatists in southwest Pakistan. What was particularly shocking was revelations about a proposed scheme to kill a prominent reformer and critic (lawyer Asma Jahangir) and to do the deed while Jahangir was visiting India and blame it on India. Jahangir had long been a critic of ISI (Pakistani intelligence and long a supporter of various terrorist groups) but the plan was never carried out. The U.S. has long urged Pakistan to curb this ISI activity, but the ISI has resisted such moves and only helped the U.S. to hunt down and kill, via UAVs, Pakistani terrorists who were hostile to Pakistan.

Pakistani politicians have agreed to back the army denial of Pakistani responsibility for the growing number of border incidents (Pakistani troops firing on Indians). Pakistani generals have always publically insisted that this violence is all the fault of the Indians. The military needs continued military and diplomatic tension with India to justify all its economic and political privileges and to discourage the politicians from prosecuting serving and retired officers for past crimes. This time around the Pakistani politicians have again refused to deal with the problem, despite the growing evidence that Pakistan soldiers have been instigating these attacks. India is dismayed at this lack of backbone by elected Pakistani officials.

The Pakistani generals believe that, since Pakistan got nukes in 1999, it can torment the Indians with these unprovoked border attacks without fear of escalating retaliation turning into a major war. Indian diplomats are reminding their Pakistani counterparts that nukes are not an absolute guarantee that the border incidents and continued Pakistani army and ISI support for Islamic terrorists working to attack inside India won’t lead to a nuclear exchange. India would be badly hurt, but Pakistan would be destroyed. Pakistani diplomats dismiss these threats and continue to officially support the Pakistani military line that this is all the fault of India. By Indian count Pakistan has violated the border 65 times this year, which was nearly twice as often as last year. Since 2009, when Pakistan began regularly breaking the 2003 ceasefire, India has counted over 250 ceasefire violations. In the last three years 26 Indian soldiers have died in these attacks, 9 this year, and 5 of them in one attack on August 6th. Indian public opinion is increasingly hostile towards Pakistan and demanding something be done. These border violations are a continuing impediment to negotiating a peace treaty with India, something many Indians and Pakistanis want but that the Pakistani military very much opposes.

The increased Pakistani Army violence on the Kashmir border has been accompanied by an increase in separatist and terrorist violence inside Kashmir. After several years of declines, this year has seen an increase in such violence, all apparently with the encouragement and support of Pakistan. India has responded with more curfews and increased patrols.

Despite considerable political resistance, Pakistan is sending thousands of soldiers into Karachi to help local police deal with the rapidly growing political, religious, and gangster violence there. Last year the murder rate in Karachi was 15 per 100,000 people a year, which is very high for areas outside the tribal territories. This year it’s running at the rate of 18. The Karachi police can’t cope, so in go the troops. For comparison purposes, the murder rate for all of Pakistan is 7.8, while it’s 3.5 in India, and 2.4 in Afghanistan. In the Western hemisphere it’s about 8 while in Europe it is about 3-4. Middle Eastern nations have rates of between 5 and 10. The United States rate is about 6 per 100,000, which is what it is in New York City, which has eight million people. There are other parts of the world that are more violent. Iraq has a murder rate in the 20s. That's not a lot higher than it was under Saddam (10-20 a year) but less than a third of what it was several years ago. In Africa, especially Congo, Sudan, and South Africa, you find similar murder rates. Only South Africa has a sufficiently effective government to actually keep accurate track of the murder rate, mostly from crime, but it's over 50 per 100,000. It's worse in places like Congo and Sudan, but the numbers there are only estimates by peacekeepers and relief workers. In southern Thailand a terror campaign by Islamic radicals has caused a death rate of over 80 per 100,000. Historians have been able to find similar patterns of deadly violence in Medieval Europe (in those places where large quantities of church records, that track births and deaths, survived). Karachi is Pakistan's largest city, with eight percent of the nation's population (14 million people) and producer of a quarter of the GDP. Islamic radicals have long been present in the city. The Taliban have established a presence among the two million Pushtuns in Karachi. A lot of the violence is the result of the Taliban trying to prevent the police from stopping the Pushtun radicals establishing save havens in Karachi. Police are hampered by the many gangs and religious terrorists who work for politicians (to influence elections and intimidate opponents) and thus have some immunity from police interference. But in the last few years the growing violence has created a popular revulsion to the presence of so many criminal organizations, many of them operating quite openly. Because of the extended political debate over bringing in troops, many gangs have hidden their weapons and sent their most notorious members into hiding. The troops are only going to be in Karachi temporarily, and once they are gone the gangs will get back to business.
Title: New Indian carrier Vikramaditya to be delivered in November
Post by: S.M.A. on September 19, 2013, 11:47:56
Delivery once and for all after all the past delays?


Aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya finishes trials in Russia, delivery to India in mid-November

NEW DELHI: After a long running saga of hard-nosed negotiations since the late-1990s, cost escalations, refit delays and mishaps, aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya has finally completed its extensive sea trials in Russia. The 44,570-tonne warship, or the refurbished Admiral Gorshkov, is now all set to be handed over to India in mid-November.

Full Article (

Plus the US offering to help in India's future carrier development:

US offers help for next generation aircraft carrier

The United States has offered to develop the next generation aircraft carrier technology with India, visiting deputy secretary of defence Ashton Carter said Wednesday.
The technology on offer, Electro Magnetic Aircraft Launch System, will be a quantum leap for the Indian Navy that currently relies on the Russian ski-launch technology.

Both Indian carriers, INS Vikramaditya, coming in November, and INS Vikrant, being built in Kochi, can ski-launch only light fighter aircraft. But EMALS would make it possible to launch heavy aircraft, including early warning systems, refuellers and transporters, from future ships. India has yet to freeze the design of the second indigenous carrier it plans to build after Vikrant.

Carter said the US is keen to develop and co-produce defence equipment with India on the lines of Brahmos, a missile developed jointly by India and Russia and which is on offer for export to a third country. One such technology that can be shared under the Defence Technology Initiative is EMALS, Carter said. "The US is developing and fielding that system and is offering the technology to India which has an aircraft carrier and is considering making more," he said.

Also on offer for joint development is the next generation anti-tank guided missile, Carter said.

The Javelin system has been on offer to India for years but it never managed to make the cut due to restrictions imposed by US law on transfer of technology, a critical factor guiding most of India's new defence acquisitions. But Carter said work has been done to amend bureaucratic processes and new version of this system can be jointly developed.

He emphasised that the US wishes to replicate, in part, the Russian model of cooperation with India. "That is exactly the same kind of thing where two industry teams are involved in the whole product life cycle; where the product is both co-produced and developed."

He dismissed concerns that such collaboration can be hampered due to India's refusal to sign the so called frameworks agreements.

Source (
Title: India to require Brahmos missile for next subs
Post by: S.M.A. on October 03, 2013, 11:06:01
India expanding the capabilities of its submarine fleet...

Defense News (|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|p)

India To Require BrahMos Missile for Next Subs

NEW DELHI — Western competitors could face stiffer competition from the Russians in India’s forthcoming US $12 billion tender for the purchase of six conventional submarines. The Indian Defence Ministry is requiring that submarines in the competition be capable of mounting the Indo-Russian BrahMos cruise missile.

India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation, which is jointly producing the BrahMos with Russia, has persuaded the MoD to incorporate the requirement for the tender, expected to be floated by the end of the year.

DCNS of France, Navantia of Spain and HDW of Germany will offer their submarines in the competition. The Russians, meanwhile, told the Indian Navy this month that their Amur-class submarines could accommodate the BrahMos missile with little modification.

No executive from DCNS, Navantia or HDW would comment on their boats’ ability to carry the missile.

India is finalizing a formal tender to purchase six advanced conventional submarines with air-independent propulsion technology.

The six submarines are to be purchased within the limitations of the Missile Technology Control Regime, which restricts the proliferation of missiles capable of flying beyond 300 kilometers, an MoD official said.

BahMos is homemade and has a range of less than 300 kilometers, which would be best suited for the submarine, the MoD source said.

The submarines are to have a surface speed of 12 knots and submerged speed of 19 knots. They will have a range of 50 to 60 days of navigation on the surface and 20 to 30 days of navigation submerged at 4 knots.


Title: India's "Rice Revolution"
Post by: S.M.A. on October 28, 2013, 14:33:51
From earlier this article about India's new "Rice revolution" :

From   The Guardian UK (

In a village in India's poorest state, Bihar, farmers are growing world record amounts of rice – with no GM, and no herbicide. Is this one solution to world food shortages?

Sumant Kumar was overjoyed when he harvested his rice last year. There had been good rains in his village of Darveshpura in north-east India and he knew he could improve on the four or five tonnes per hectare that he usually managed. But every stalk he cut on his paddy field near the bank of the Sakri river seemed to weigh heavier than usual, every grain of rice was bigger and when his crop was weighed on the old village scales, even Kumar was shocked.

This was not six or even 10 or 20 tonnes. Kumar, a shy young farmer in Nalanda district of India's poorest state Bihar, had – using only farmyard manure and without any herbicides – grown an astonishing 22.4 tonnes of rice on one hectare of land. This was a world record and with rice the staple food of more than half the world's population of seven billion, big news.

It beat not just the 19.4 tonnes achieved by the "father of rice", the Chinese agricultural scientist Yuan Longping, but the World Bank-funded scientists at the International Rice Research Institute in the Philippines, and anything achieved by the biggest European and American seed and GM companies. And it was not just Sumant Kumar. Krishna, Nitish, Sanjay and Bijay, his friends and rivals in Darveshpura, all recorded over 17 tonnes, and many others in the villages around claimed to have more than doubled their usual yields.

The villagers, at the mercy of erratic weather and used to going without food in bad years, celebrated. But the Bihar state agricultural universities didn't believe them at first, while India's leading rice scientists muttered about freak results. The Nalanda farmers were accused of cheating. Only when the state's head of agriculture, a rice farmer himself, came to the village with his own men and personally verified Sumant's crop, was the record confirmed.

The rhythm of Nalanda village life was shattered. Here bullocks still pull ploughs as they have always done, their dung is still dried on the walls of houses and used to cook food. Electricity has still not reached most people. Sumant became a local hero, mentioned in the Indian parliament and asked to attend conferences. The state's chief minister came to Darveshpura to congratulate him, and the village was rewarded with electric power, a bank and a new concrete bridge.

That might have been the end of the story had Sumant's friend Nitish not smashed the world record for growing potatoes six months later. Shortly after Ravindra Kumar, a small farmer from a nearby Bihari village, broke the Indian record for growing wheat. Darveshpura became known as India's "miracle village", Nalanda became famous and teams of scientists, development groups, farmers, civil servants and politicians all descended to discover its secret.

When I meet the young farmers, all in their early 30s, they still seem slightly dazed by their fame. They've become unlikely heroes in a state where nearly half the families live below the Indian poverty line and 93% of the 100 million population depend on growing rice and potatoes. Nitish Kumar speaks quietly of his success and says he is determined to improve on the record. "In previous years, farming has not been very profitable," he says. "Now I realise that it can be. My whole life has changed. I can send my children to school and spend more on health. My income has increased a lot."

What happened in Darveshpura has divided scientists and is exciting governments and development experts. Tests on the soil show it is particularly rich in silicon but the reason for the "super yields" is entirely down to a method of growing crops called System of Rice (or root) Intensification (SRI). It has dramatically increased yields with wheat, potatoes, sugar cane, yams, tomatoes, garlic, aubergine and many other crops and is being hailed as one of the most significant developments of the past 50 years for the world's 500 million small-scale farmers and the two billion people who depend on them.
Instead of planting three-week-old rice seedlings in clumps of three or four in waterlogged fields, as rice farmers around the world traditionally do, the Darveshpura farmers carefully nurture only half as many seeds, and then transplant the young plants into fields, one by one, when much younger. Additionally, they space them at 25cm intervals in a grid pattern, keep the soil much drier and carefully weed around the plants to allow air to their roots. The premise that "less is more" was taught by Rajiv Kumar, a young Bihar state government extension worker who had been trained in turn by Anil Verma of a small Indian NGO called Pran (Preservation and Proliferation of Rural Resources and Nature), which has introduced the SRI method to hundreds of villages in the past three years.

While the "green revolution" that averted Indian famine in the 1970s relied on improved crop varieties, expensive pesticides and chemical fertilisers, SRI appears to offer a long-term, sustainable future for no extra cost. With more than one in seven of the global population going hungry and demand for rice expected to outstrip supply within 20 years, it appears to offer real hope. Even a 30% increase in the yields of the world's small farmers would go a long way to alleviating poverty.

"Farmers use less seeds, less water and less chemicals but they get more without having to invest more. This is revolutionary," said Dr Surendra Chaurassa from Bihar's agriculture ministry. "I did not believe it to start with, but now I think it can potentially change the way everyone farms. I would want every state to promote it. If we get 30-40% increase in yields, that is more than enough to recommend it."

The results in Bihar have exceeded Chaurassa's hopes. Sudama Mahto, an agriculture officer in Nalanda, says a small investment in training a few hundred people to teach SRI methods has resulted in a 45% increase in the region's yields. Veerapandi Arumugam, the former agriculture minister of Tamil Nadu state, hailed the system as "revolutionising" farming.

SRI's origins go back to the 1980s in Madagascar where Henri de Laulanie, a French Jesuit priest and agronomist, observed how villagers grew rice in the uplands. He developed the method but it was an American, professor Norman Uphoff, director of the International Institute for Food, Agriculture and Development at Cornell University, who was largely responsible for spreading the word about De Laulanie's work.

Given $15m by an anonymous billionaire to research sustainable development, Uphoff went to Madagascar in 1983 and saw the success of SRI for himself: farmers whose previous yields averaged two tonnes per hectare were harvesting eight tonnes. In 1997 he started to actively promote SRI in Asia, where more than 600 million people are malnourished.

"It is a set of ideas, the absolute opposite to the first green revolution [of the 60s] which said that you had to change the genes and the soil nutrients to improve yields. That came at a tremendous ecological cost," says Uphoff. "Agriculture in the 21st century must be practised differently. Land and water resources are becoming scarcer, of poorer quality, or less reliable. Climatic conditions are in many places more adverse. SRI offers millions of disadvantaged households far better opportunities. Nobody is benefiting from this except the farmers; there are no patents, royalties or licensing fees."

For 40 years now, says Uphoff, science has been obsessed with improving seeds and using artificial fertilisers: "It's been genes, genes, genes. There has never been talk of managing crops. Corporations say 'we will breed you a better plant' and breeders work hard to get 5-10% increase in yields. We have tried to make agriculture an industrial enterprise and have forgotten its biological roots."

Not everyone agrees. Some scientists complain there is not enough peer-reviewed evidence around SRI and that it is impossible to get such returns. "SRI is a set of management practices and nothing else, many of which have been known for a long time and are best recommended practice," says Achim Dobermann, deputy director for research at the International Rice Research Institute. "Scientifically speaking I don't believe there is any miracle. When people independently have evaluated SRI principles then the result has usually been quite different from what has been reported on farm evaluations conducted by NGOs and others who are promoting it. Most scientists have had difficulty replicating the observations."

Dominic Glover, a British researcher working with Wageningen University in the Netherlands, has spent years analysing the introduction of GM crops in developing countries. He is now following how SRI is being adopted in India and believes there has been a "turf war".

"There are experts in their fields defending their knowledge," he says. "But in many areas, growers have tried SRI methods and abandoned them. People are unwilling to investigate this. SRI is good for small farmers who rely on their own families for labour, but not necessarily for larger operations. Rather than any magical theory, it is good husbandry, skill and attention which results in the super yields. Clearly in certain circumstances, it is an efficient resource for farmers. But it is labour intensive and nobody has come up with the technology to transplant single seedlings yet."

But some larger farmers in Bihar say it is not labour intensive and can actually reduce time spent in fields. "When a farmer does SRI the first time, yes it is more labour intensive," says Santosh Kumar, who grows 15 hectares of rice and vegetables in Nalanda. "Then it gets easier and new innovations are taking place now."

In its early days, SRI was dismissed or vilified by donors and scientists but in the past few years it has gained credibility. Uphoff estimates there are now 4-5 million farmers using SRI worldwide, with governments in China, India, Indonesia, Cambodia, Sri Lanka and Vietnam promoting it.

Sumant, Nitish and as many as 100,000 other SRI farmers in Bihar are now preparing their next rice crop. It's back-breaking work transplanting the young rice shoots from the nursery beds to the paddy fields but buoyed by recognition and results, their confidence and optimism in the future is sky high.

Last month Nobel prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz visited Nalanda district and recognised the potential of this kind of organic farming, telling the villagers they were "better than scientists". "It was amazing to see their success in organic farming," said Stiglitz, who called for more research. "Agriculture scientists from across the world should visit and learn and be inspired by them."

Bihar, from being India's poorest state, is now at the centre of what is being called a "new green grassroots revolution" with farming villages, research groups and NGOs all beginning to experiment with different crops using SRI. The state will invest $50m in SRI next year but western governments and foundations are holding back, preferring to invest in hi-tech research. The agronomist Anil Verma does not understand why: "The farmers know SRI works, but help is needed to train them. We know it works differently in different soils but the principles are solid," he says. "The biggest problem we have is that people want to do it but we do not have enough trainers.

"If any scientist or a company came up with a technology that almost guaranteed a 50% increase in yields at no extra cost they would get a Nobel prize. But when young Biharian farmers do that they get nothing. I only want to see the poor farmers have enough to eat."
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on October 28, 2013, 17:28:09
Pretty amazing stuff. Reducing agricultural "inputs" is a real must to increase productivity everywhere, and the savings in fuel, water and other resources are all big paybacks to the farmers (even if there was no increase in yeild at all). Canadian farmers should look and learn from this as well...
Title: India to comissions new Russian-built carrier "Vikramaditya"
Post by: S.M.A. on November 15, 2013, 16:53:27
Finally, the "new" carrier Vikramaditya will be commissioned after so many delays.

Defense News (


NEW DELHI — India will commission the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, now renamed INS Vikramaditya, Nov. 16 when Indian Defence Minister A.K. Antony will receive the carrier in Russia.

The Indian Navy had to pay nearly $ 1.75 billion above the contracted price of the aircraft carrier, and wait nearly five years more than the scheduled delivery, which had been planned for 2008.

Antony will receive the carrier ahead of its departure on Nov. 30. It is expected to reach India by early January, an Indian Navy source said.

Russian shipyard Sevmash carried out the refit on the Vikramaditya, which will carry Russian-made MiG-29K aircraft, which have already been received. The carrier was modified to undertake short-takeoff, assisted-recovery operations.

The Vikramaditya will carry 34 aircraft including 21 MiG-29K and 13 Kamov KA-32 anti-submarine warfare ASW helicopters, as well as Ka–31T airborne early warning helicopters.  The carrier was provided for free in 2005 but the Indian Navy had to pay for the refit cost and buy MiG-29K aircraft.

However, the Russian shipyard backtracked on its contract and said they the cost of refit has been recalculated. After a protracted stalemate, a fresh deal was inked in 2010 with the refit being pegged at $2.33 billion and another $2 billion for 45 MiG-29Ks.


Title: India's 1st Mars probe leaves Earth for its biggest leap
Post by: S.M.A. on December 01, 2013, 21:40:15
While China sets its sights on the moon, India aims for Mars:

India's first Mars probe leaves Earth orbit for its biggest leap

NEW DELHI — India's Mars orbiter mission ventured out of Earth's sphere of influence early Sunday in an attempt to reach the Red Planet's orbit after a critical maneuver.

The Bangalore-based Indian Space Research Organization said the spacecraft fired its main engine for more than 20 minutes, giving it the correct velocity to leave the earth's orbit.

"The Earth orbiting phase of the spacecraft ended. The spacecraft is now on a course to encounter Mars after a journey of about 10 months around the sun," the statement said.

It said that all systems onboard the spacecraft are performing normally.

More at...

NBC news (

Title: Indian, Pakistani Army generals meet over Kashmir
Post by: S.M.A. on December 24, 2013, 17:14:56
A rare meeting between Indian and Pakistani generals over an issue as contentious as Kashmir:

Defense News (


Pakistan, Indian Army Commanders Meet On Kashmir

Dec. 24, 2013 - 02:09PM   |   By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE 

ISLAMABAD — Leading army commanders from Pakistan and India met Tuesday for the first time in 14 years in a bid to reduce tensions in the disputed region of Kashmir after a year of intermittent clashes.

The directors general of military operations (DGMO) from both nuclear-armed neighbors held face-to-face talks at Wagah border post, near the eastern Pakistani city of Lahore.

The past year has seen some of the worst violence in a decade along the Line of Control (LoC), the heavily militarized frontier dividing the Himalayan region of Kashmir, which both countries control in part but claim in full.

The two sides agreed to make contact between the two DGMOs on their special hotline "more effective and result-oriented", a joint statement released by the Pakistani military after the meeting said.

The release said the atmosphere of the talks was "cordial, positive and constructive.”

"It is the first (such) meeting between the senior army officials since Kargil," senior Indian defense ministry spokesman Sitanshu Kar said, referring to the brief war between the two nations in divided Kashmir in 1999.

The meeting comes less than a month after General Raheel Sharif took over as Pakistan's new army chief.

A deadly flare-up along the LoC in January brought a halt to peace talks that had only just resumed following a three-year hiatus sparked by the 2008 attacks in Mumbai that killed 166 people.

Fresh skirmishes erupted on the LoC after five Indian soldiers were killed in a raid in August.

Delhi blamed that ambush on the Pakistan army, but Islamabad denied the claims and has repeatedly called for restraint and dialogue.

The prime ministers of both countries pledged to ensure calm in Kashmir when they held talks in New York in September, the highest-level talks between the two sides for three years.

Title: new Indian carrier arrives back in India, enters service, working up
Post by: S.M.A. on January 17, 2014, 11:51:36
For those unaware, the 2nd carrier to the bottom right of the picture below is their older carrier INS Viraat, which used to be the UK Royal Navy's HMS Hermes.

India’s Largest Carrier INS Vikramaditya Arrives at Karwar Home Port
JANUARY 8, 2014

Defense Update (

India’s newest and biggest ever warship, the aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya, has arrived yesterday at its home port of Karwar in Karnataka, in the southwestern coast of India, after an uninterrupted six-week sail from northern Russia. In November 2013 the 44,500 ton vessel completed a modification and refurbishment process that lasted nine years.

The aircraft carrier will now go through another refitting necessary to support the air wing that will be operating on board, and new armament, including Barak air and missile defense systems and mission systems that could not be installed in Russia. In few weeks the carrier will begin to support carrier qualification for Indian Navy pilots. The ship has the ability to carry over 30 aircraft comprising an assortment of MiG 29K/Sea Harrier, Kamov 31, Kamov 28, Sea King, ALH-Dhruv and Chetak helicopters. On its way to India Vikramaditya was escorted by a number of naval vessels, including the carrier INS Viraat. As the two carriers were sailing in close formation, Sea Harrier fighters aircraft and Ka-31 helicopters operating from INS Viraat performed simulated landings and take offs on the Vikramaditya.

< Edited >

Title: Japan and India: the Twin Pillars of Asian Security
Post by: S.M.A. on January 26, 2014, 18:51:52
A notable update on the twin pivotal roles of India and Japan in the coming century, and not just as a check on China, etc.


India, Japan pledge stronger defence ties

(Yahoo! News (


The agreement was reached at a meeting in New Delhi between Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and his Japanese counterpart Shinzo Abe, who arrived on a visit earlier in the day.
The two leaders "reaffirmed their determination to further strengthen bilateral defence cooperation", the joint statement said.
Singh and Abe also "renewed their resolution" to conduct joint maritime exercises on a "regular basis with increased frequency".

Japan And India: The Twin Pillars Of Asian Security

Analysis ( (


Asian security and stability in 2014 stands greatly endangered by China’s military provocations and military brinkmanship extending from the India-Tibet Himalayan borders in South Asia to South China Sea in South East Asia and finally to conflict escalation at Japan’s doorsteps in the East China Sea (Senkaku Islands).

With China not emerging as the leading stakeholder in Asian security and stability, and contrarily emerging as the major challenge to Asian security, Japan and India now have to strategically operate as the twin pillars of Asian security and stability.

Indicators exist that strategic realities have dawned on both Japan and India that they not only have to add substance to the Japan-India Strategic & Global Partnership 2006 but also hasten the process of their respective defence build-ups and strive for creation of an indigenous Asian ‘balance of power regime’ incorporating other Asian nations threatened by China’s military waywardness.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Fishbone Jones on January 26, 2014, 19:02:00
So after a quick perusal of the above posts, why is it that Canada still providing India with around $100 million in aid annually?
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on January 26, 2014, 19:20:46
So after a quick perusal of the above posts, why is it that Canada still providing India with around $100 million in aid annually?

Perhaps these excerpts below may provide part of the answer? Apparently Canadian governments of whatever political stripe (over the past 55 years) see an interest in continuing this aid, which may be attributed to the influence of Indo-Canadian diaspora or the need for Canada to maintain its trade links/interests on the Indian subcontinent. 



Development Assistance

After 55 years of bilateral programming in India totalling C$2.39 billion, Canada’s bilateral development assistance program came to an end in 2006 following a change in Indian government policy regarding aid.   However, Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Canada (DFATD) continues to provide assistance to India through partnerships between Indian and Canadian NGOs and multilateral programs. In addition, the Canadian High Commission in New Delhi manages the Canada Fund for Local Initiatives, to support local projects in India focusing on gender equality, human rights, and good governance.  For further details see the “Development Cooperation” link on the left hand side of this page.

And the aid seems to be peanuts when compared to the amount of bilateral trade between the two nations:


Canada and India have longstanding bilateral relations, built upon shared traditions of democracy, pluralism and strong interpersonal connections with an Indian diaspora of more than one million in Canada.  This expanding bilateral relationship is supported by a wide range of agreements and by PM Singh and PM Harper’s commitment to increase annual bilateral trade to $15 billion by 2015. Canada’s priorities in India include infrastructure, energy, food, education, science and technology. India is an important source country for immigration to Canada.

Prime Minister Harper undertook a state visit to India from November 4-9, his longest official foreign visit since assuming office in 2006. During the visit the following agreements were signed: the Canada-India Social Security Agreement, the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) on cooperation in Information and Communication Technologies and Electronics, and the MOU between York University and the Indian Defence Research and Development Organization. Announcements were also made on: agreement on the Appropriate (Administrative) Arrangements of the Nuclear Cooperation Agreement; institutionalization of annual Strategic Dialogues between respective Foreign, Trade, and Energy Ministers, and between the offices of National Security Advisors; upgrading of the trade office in Bangalore to a Consulate; announcement of updates to the air transport agreement; and announcement of the winners of the competition for the Canada-India Research Centre of Excellence.

Trade and Investment

According to Statistics Canada, bilateral merchandise trade between Canada and India in 2011 totalled approximately CAD$ 5.2 billion, an increase of 23.4% percent 2010.

While Canadian merchandise exports to India in 2011 totalled $2.6 billion (a 27.7% percent increase 2010), imports from India reached $2.5 billion (a 19.3% percent increase from 2010).

Top Canadian exports to India include vegetables (mostly peas and lentils), fertilisers, paper and paperboard, machinery, wood pulp, precious stones, and iron and steel. Canadian imports from India include organic chemicals, precious stones and metals, knit apparel, woven apparel, machinery, and iron and steel.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on January 26, 2014, 22:29:00
India is having some second thoughts about their collaberation with the Russians on "5th Generation" fighters. While the Russians do have some fairly impressive airframes (especially the Sukhoi fighters and attack aircraft), the issue here is the capabilities and integration of the electronic systems. The article notes that while the Indian Air Force and government have expressed interest in the F-35, the US Administration has failed to respond. Boeing might have an opportunity to get in with the F/A 18 E/F SuperHornet, especially the "Super-Duper Hornet" package with expanded capabilities and conformal fuel tanks, and the stealth weapons pod.

Russian rubbish? India reportedly disappointed with stealth fighters from Moscow
By Maxim LottPublished January 26,

Is the Russian arms industry getting soft?

Despite initial high expectations, the Indian Air Force appears to be souring on a joint development deal with Russia for a new fifth-generation fighter jet, according to the Business Standard, a major Indian business publication. The Russian prototype is "unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered,” said Indian Air Force Deputy Air Marshall S Sukumar at a Jan. 15 meeting, according to minutes obtained by the Business Standard.

That contrasts sharply with high hopes voiced by the Indian government when the joint project, to which the Indian government has contributed $6 billion, began.

“[The new plane] will have advanced features such as stealth, supercruise, ultra-maneuvrability, highly integrated avionics suite, enhanced situational awareness, internal carriage of weapons and Network Centric Warfare capabilities,” the Indian government said in a December 2010 press release. Those are all hallmarks of “fifth generation” aircraft.

“Clearly they want to go more Western because they recognize that the Russian stuff just isn't up to the western standards."
- Robbin Laird, consultant to the Marine Corps and Air Force

The Indian Air Force did not respond to a request for comment.

But it is hardly surprising that the invisible-to-radar Russian fighter planes don't quite live up to the billing, according to defense experts reached by

“The Russians are certainly not up to speed in avionics,” Robbin Laird, who has served as a consultant to the Marine Corps and Air Force and started the website Second Line of Defense, told “For them to pull off a stealth airframe, and for it to actually be stealthy, the engine technology has to be very good. Americans have done it with the F-22 and F-35. But it’s not easy to do. No one has done it but ourselves.”

India is the largest arms importer in world, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, and its military import large amounts from both Russia and western countries.

“The Indians for a long time have split their fighter industry between western work and Russian work,” Laird said.

“Clearly they want to go more Western because they recognize that the Russian stuff just isn't up to the western standards. You only have so much money to go around, and like everybody else they've got financial pressures,” he added.

Other security experts said that India has a history of incompetence when it comes to military procurement, and so it did not necessarily reflect badly on Russia.

“India has had so many problems absorbing modern equipment and supporting it that it’s difficult to know whether it says anything about the Russian systems at all,” Anthony Cordesman, who has served as a consultant for the State and Defense departments and who holds the Burke Chair in Strategy at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, told

Laird said that the Indians may be souring on the Russian deal in part to save funds so they can build more French-designed Dassault Rafale fighter jets, which can be built relatively quickly, unlike the still-to-be-designed “fifth-generation” planes under development with the Russians.

“The Rafale is a very nice aircraft, and they'll look at all the stuff the French are putting on that aircraft, and they'll look at the Russian stuff and say, why am I going down that path? Do I trust the Russians really are going to reach to the standards we set?”

Laird said that India would be best off purchasing the already-developed fifth-generation Lockheed Martin F-35 – but that the United States government had not given permission for such a sale, even though Indian officials had asked several times to be able to consider the plane.

“If they get a chance to really look at the F35, they would want it," Laird said. "The Indians have requested 3 times to talk to people about the F-35B, which is the true revolutionary aircraft -- and the administration never answered the mail, they've blown them off, it's typical of the Obama administration. We love our allies except if you want anything.”

He added that India may in fact not be at the level where it should be trusted with F-35s, however, so the administration would be right to turn them down. But he argued that the F-35 is ahead of what Russia has.

“The Russians are good aircraft designers, and they know how to build an agile aircraft, and [the new plane they are working on] is a step forward the path of more agility and flexibility, but the problem is -- it's not all about the frame, it's about what your put in it. The F35 can see around itself, 360 degrees, can see a missile take off 820 miles away, it has a radar that's extraordinary, and the systems are integrated. The Russians I think are nowhere near that at this point.”

Laird admitted that there was a kind of “ho-hum” aspect to those types of features, but said that the information they provide to pilots and commanders would pay off in a combat situation.

Cordesman also said that he was unsurprised by the Indian complaints, given what he knew about Russian air capabilities.

“They’re very good at building airplanes,” Cordesman said. “The problem that Russia, since the collapse of the former Soviet Union, has been putting out the military equivalent of show cars. They look good, but it isn’t always clear how practical they are and how many of the specifications they can actually meet.”

The author of the piece can be reached at or on twitter at @maximlott
Title: India's Rafale jet fighter arrangement (update)
Post by: S.M.A. on January 29, 2014, 23:37:27
An update on the two-year old arrangement between India's HAL and France's Dassault to produce Rafale jet fighters locally:

DNA News site (India) (


dna exclusive: 100% price escalation on Rafale fighter aircraft to Rs 1.75 lakh crore likely to dent IAF's strike capability

Sunday, January 26, 2014 - 07:02 IST | Place: New Delhi | Agency: DNA

India’s biggest deal of procuring 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for $18 billion (Rs90,000 crore) has hit rough weather. Two years after French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation bagged the deal for its Rafale fighter jets on account of being the lowest bidder, its cost has now shot up by 100 per cent.

In January 2012, when Rafale was declared the winner, its price was quoted between $60-65 million (Rs373-Rs400 crore). A top defence ministry official said the price of a fighter jet made by Dassault could now cost $120 million (Rs746 crore). The second bidder, Eurofighter, had quoted $80-85 million (Rs497-Rs528 crore).

The price hike would mean that the deal would cost India nothing less than $28-30 billion (Rs1.75 lakh crore-Rs1.86 lakh crore),” said an Indian Air Force (IAF) official, who is privy to discussions of the cost negotiation committee.

The defence ministry headed by AK Antony has developed cold feet after the cost doubled compared to the original estimate. With the general elections just months away, Antony is unsure about the fate of the deal, a defence ministry official said. “As the negotiations continue, the cost is spiralling out of hand. It is a major worry,” he said.

An IAF official said that in 2007, when the tender was floated, the cost of the programme was $12 billion (Rs42,000 crore). When the lowest bidder was declared in January 2012, the cost of the deal shot up to $18 billion (Rs90,000 crore).

Eighteen of the 126 planes will be purchased directly from Dassault, while Hindustan Aeronautics Limited will manufacture the other 108 under a licence, at an upcoming facility in Bangalore.

The IAF, which is fighting its depleting combat strength, was banking on Rafale as this was going to be the force’s leading fighter plane for the next four decades. “With chances of the MMRCA deal getting inked appearing dim, there seems to be no

solution to the immediate problem of shrinking squadron numbers as existing aircraft are forced into retirement,” said another IAF official.

The air force is seeking to replace its ageing MiG-21s with a modern fighter and MMRCA fits between India’s high-end Sukhoi-30MKIs and its low-end Tejas LCA lightweight fighter. The IAF has a sanctioned strength of 45 fighter jet squadrons. However, it only has 30 squadrons operational as old aircraft have been retired.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on February 02, 2014, 15:24:30
Further collaboration between Japan and India, in this case the sale of long range patrol aircraft:

India’s Struggling Military Gets Major Boost From Japan

The details are still being worked out, but it looks like India is about to become the first country since World War II to buy military aircraft from Japan. This is big news not just for Japan, which is experiencing a revival under Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, but also for India as it tries to keep pace with a rapidly developing Chinese military.

India intends to buy 15 ShinMaywa Industries amphibious aircraft at a cost of about $110 million each, Reuters reports. “The plane has a range of over 4,500 km (2,800 miles), which will give it reach far into Southeast Asia from the base where the aircraft are likely to be located, in the Andaman and Nicobar island chain that is near the western tip of Indonesia.” India established itself as the world’s biggest arms importer last year.

Building deeper military ties between India and Japan suits both countries. For Japan it helps the economy emerge from years of sluggish growth, and for Abe this deal is a landmark in his quest to revive Japan’s sense of regional strength. India and Japan are the two largest and most powerful of China’s rivals, and cooperating to balance the tiger in the room is a no-brainer.

But it’s not all good news emerging from India’s defense ministry. First there was the news that a new fighter jet co-developed with Russia had hit a snag. The Russian prototype is “unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered,” said an Air Force deputy marshall, according to Fox News.

Then the U.S. Defense Department released a report declaring that the Boeing P-8I multi-mission maritime aircraft, several of which India has just purchased in order to better monitor the Indian Ocean for unwelcome intruders, “is not effective for the intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance mission and is not effective for wide area anti-submarine search.”

It was probably some of this news, along with the memory of a tragic explosion aboard a Russia-made submarine that killed all 18 sailors on board in Mumbai last August, that prompted Narendra Modi to urge India’s defense industry to step up its production of arms and equipment. If Modi is the champion in this year’s election, expect a boost for India’s defense industry and with it a more prominent role for India’s military in the region.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: pbi on February 03, 2014, 14:43:54
This comment has nothing to do with technology, but rather the human side of  India's military strength.

In 1993 I served alongside a number of Indian Army officers as part of the UN mission in Mozambique. I was highly impressed by their professionalism, their friendliness and their free admission of the debt of heritage that the Indian Army owes the British Army. As one officer said as we had lunch served in a field mess tent of an Indian Army engineer unit (complete with waiters in white mess jackets, regimental silver, white linen, and scotch in a cut glass decanter) "This is a British Army, you know"

I was equally impressed by the engineer unit. Their heavy equipment looked like a bunch of old Russian stuff, but the unit lines were spick and span, just like something out of our Army in the pre-Unification days. The troops were well turned out and highly disciplined (although, I thought, a bit too frightened of officers...) 

I accompanied a detachment of the unit on a route recce task. They were very checked out and worked like clockwork. We stopped for lunch, which (much to my surprise) was served by the troops to the officers first, before any soldiers ate (the exact reverse of what we would be used to). That said, the unit seemed to be happy and functioned well.

An Army I would be proud to be associated with.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on February 17, 2014, 22:24:57
The Indian drug industry comes under scrutiny. While the story is alarming, the last two paragraphs are even more alarming: Chinese companies are also suspected of these practices, but refuse inspection, and China is now the only source of many of the ingredients of medicines sold in the United States. Anyone for an investment opportunity?

Medicines Made in India Set Off Safety Worries

NEW DELHI — India, the second-largest exporter of over-the-counter and prescription drugs to the United States, is coming under increased scrutiny by American regulators for safety lapses, falsified drug test results and selling fake medicines.

Dr. Margaret A. Hamburg, the commissioner of the United States Food and Drug Administration, arrived in India this week to express her growing unease with the safety of Indian medicines because of “recent lapses in quality at a handful of pharmaceutical firms.”

India’s pharmaceutical industry supplies 40 percent of over-the-counter and generic prescription drugs consumed in the United States, so the increased scrutiny could have profound implications for American consumers.

F.D.A. investigators are blitzing Indian drug plants, financing the inspections with some of the roughly $300 million in annual fees from generic drug makers collected as part of a 2012 law requiring increased scrutiny of overseas plants. The agency inspected 160 Indian drug plants last year, three times as many as in 2009. The increased scrutiny has led to a flood of new penalties, including half of the warning letters the agency issued last year to drug makers.

Launch media viewer
Ranbaxy, one of India’s biggest drug manufacturers, pleaded guilty to felony charges and paid a $500 million fine last year. Adnan Abidi/Reuters
Dr. Hamburg was met by Indian officials and executives who, shocked by recent F.D.A. export bans of generic versions of popular medicines — like the acne drug Accutane, the pain drug Neurontin and the antibiotic Cipro — that the F.D.A. determined were adulterated, suspect that she is just protecting a domestic industry from cheaper imports.

“There are some people who take a very sinister view of the F.D.A. inspections,” Keshav Desiraju, India’s health secretary until this week, said in a recent interview.

The F.D.A.'s increased enforcement has already cost Indian companies dearly — Ranbaxy, one of India’s biggest drug manufacturers, pleaded guilty to felony charges and paid a $500 million fine last year, the largest ever levied against a generic company. And many worry that worse is in store.

“If I have to follow U.S. standards in inspecting facilities supplying to the Indian market,” G. N. Singh, India’s top drug regulator, said in a recent interview with an Indian newspaper, “we will have to shut almost all of those.”

The unease culminated Tuesday when a top executive at Ranbaxy — which has repeatedly been caught lying to the F.D.A. and found to have conditions such as flies “too numerous to count” in critical plant areas — pleaded with Dr. Hamburg at a private meeting with other drug executives to allow his products into the United States so that the company could more easily pay for fixes. She politely declined.

India’s drug industry is one of the country’s most important economic engines, exporting $15 billion in products annually, and some of its factories are world-class, virtually undistinguishable from their counterparts in the West. But others suffer from serious quality control problems. The World Health Organization estimated that one in five drugs made in India are fakes. A 2010 survey of New Delhi pharmacies found that 12 percent of sampled drugs were spurious.

In one recent example, counterfeit medicines at a pediatric hospital in Kashmir are now suspected of playing a role in hundreds of infant deaths there in recent years.

One widely used antibiotic was found to contain no active ingredient after being randomly tested in a government lab. The test was kept secret for nearly a year while 100,000 useless pills continued to be dispensed.

More tests of hospital medicines found dozens more that were substandard, including a crucial intravenous antibiotic used in sick infants.

“Some of the fake tablets were used by pregnant women in the post-surgical prevention of infections,” said Dr. M. Ishaq Geer, senior assistant professor of pharmacology at the University of Kashmir. “That’s very serious.”

Investigations of the deaths are continuing, but convictions of drug counterfeiters in India are extremely rare.
Satish Reddy, president of the Indian Pharmaceutical Alliance, said Indian drug manufacturers were better than the F.D.A. now contends. “More rigorous enforcement is needed, for sure, but this impression that India is overrun with counterfeits is unjustified,” Mr. Reddy said.

But Heather Bresch, chief executive of Mylan, which has plants in the United States and India, said regulatory scrutiny outside the United States was long overdue. “If there were no cops around, would everyone drive the speed limit?” Ms. Bresch asked. “You get careless, start taking risks. Our government has enabled this.”

Launch media viewer
Dr. Margaret A. Hamburg, the head of the Food and Drug Administration, is in India this week to express her concerns. Associated Press
For Dr. Hamburg, the trip is part of a long-running effort to create a global network of drug and food regulators to help scrutinize the growing flood of products coming into the United States, including 80 percent of the seafood consumed in the United States, 50 percent of the fresh fruit, 20 percent of the vegetables and the vast majority of drugs.

She has gone to conclaves of regulators from Europe and elsewhere to coordinate policing, but Indian officials have so far not attended such meetings.

Many of India’s drug manufacturing facilities are of top quality. Cipla, one of the industry’s giants, has 40 plants across the country that together can produce more than 21 billion tablets and capsules annually, and one of its plants in Goa appeared just as sterile, automated and high tech on a recent tour as those in the United States.

Cipla follows F.D.A. guidelines at every plant and on every manufacturing line, and the company exports more than 55 percent of its production, said Yusuf Hamied, the company chairman.

But Benjamin Mwesige, a pharmacist at the Uganda Cancer Institute in Kampala, said in an interview in July that the institute had stopped buying cancer drugs from India in 2011 because it had received shipments of drugs that turned out to be counterfeit and inactive, with Cipla labels that Mr. Mwesige believed were forged.

He became suspicious when doctors began seeing chemotherapy patients whose cancer showed none of the expected responses to the drugs — and who also had none of the usual side effects. The drugs that had been prescribed were among the mainstays of cancer treatment — methotrexate, docetaxel and vincristine. Laboratory tests confirmed that the drugs were bogus, and Mr. Mwesige estimated that in 2011 20 percent of the drugs that the institute bought were counterfeit.

Enforcement of regulations over all is very weak, analysts say, and India’s government does a poor job policing many of its industries. Last month, the United States Federal Aviation Administration downgraded India’s aviation safety ranking because the country’s air safety regulator was understaffed, and a global safety group found that many of India’s best-selling small cars were unsafe.

India’s Central Drugs Standard Control Organization, the country’s drug regulator, has a staff of 323, about 2 percent the size of the F.D.A.'s, and its authority is limited to new drugs. The making of medicines that have been on the market at least four years is overseen by state health departments, many of which are corrupt or lack the expertise to oversee a sophisticated industry. Despite the flood of counterfeit drugs, Mr. Singh, India’s top drug regulator, warned in meetings with the F.D.A. of the risk of overregulation.

This absence of oversight, however, is a central reason India’s pharmaceutical industry has been so profitable. Drug manufacturers estimate that routine F.D.A. inspections add 25 percent to overall costs. In the wake of the 2012 law that requires the F.D.A. for the first time to equalize oversight of domestic and foreign plants, India’s cost advantage could shrink significantly.

Some top manufacturers are already warning that they may leave, tough medicine for an already slowing economy.

“I’m a great nationalist, an Indian first and last,” Dr. Hamied said. “But companies like Cipla are looking to expand their businesses abroad and not in India.”

American businesses and F.D.A. officials are just as concerned about the quality of drugs coming out of China, but the F.D.A.'s efforts to increase inspections there have so far been frustrated by the Chinese government.

“China is the source of some of the largest counterfeit manufacturing operations that we find globally,” said John P. Clark, Pfizer’s chief security officer, who added that Chinese authorities were cooperative.

Using its new revenues, the F.D.A. tried to bolster its staff in China in February 2012. But the Chinese government has so far failed to provide the necessary visas despite an announced agreement in December 2013 during a visit by Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr., said Erica Jefferson, an F.D.A. spokeswoman.

The United States has become so dependent on Chinese imports, however, that the F.D.A. may not be able to do much about the Chinese refusal. The crucial ingredients for nearly all antibiotics, steroids and many other lifesaving drugs are now made exclusively in China.

Denise Grady contributed reporting from Kampala, Uganda, and Hari Kumar from Srinagar, Kashmir.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on February 19, 2014, 23:21:44
Hopefully the prediction in this article from Bloomberg will be mostly correct. Economic growth will b e very important to creat the wealth India needs to deal with her domestic issues, as well as to continue both as part of the Anglosphere and as a regional power in being an actor rather than a passive recipient in world affairs:

India Predicts Climb From Decade-Low GDP Growth Amid Risks
By Unni Krishnan  Feb 8, 2014 3:15 AM ET  10 Comments  Email  Print

India forecast a faster acceleration in economic growth than analysts had estimated, a prediction facing risks from interest-rate increases to quell inflation and expenditure curbs by the government.

Gross domestic product will rise 4.9 percent in the 12 months through March 31, compared with the decade-low 4.5 percent in the previous fiscal year, the Statistics Ministry said in New Delhi yesterday. The median of 24 estimates in a Bloomberg News survey had been 4.7 percent. The projection may be revised upward later and the final growth rate is unlikely to be less than 5 percent, Finance Minister Palaniappan Chidambaram said in a statement e-mailed today.

India last month joined nations from Brazil to Turkey in raising interest rates, striving to stem the fastest inflation in Asia and shield the rupee from a reduction in U.S. monetary stimulus that’s hurt emerging-market assets. Opinion polls signaling that the general election due by May could lead to an unstable coalition government are adding to risks.

“Fiscal consolidation efforts will continue to remain a focus area for the new government as well,” said Devendra Pant, chief economist at India Ratings & Research Pvt., the local unit of Fitch Ratings. “There is no scope for across the board stimulus.”

The rupee, down about 15 percent versus the dollar in the past year, strengthened 0.2 percent to 62.29 per dollar in Mumbai yesterday, before the data’s release. The S&P BSE Sensex index rose 0.3 percent. The yield on the government bond due November 2023 rose to 8.74 percent from 8.72 percent on Feb. 6.

‘Significant Improvement’

“This estimate of 4.9 per cent for the whole year will in all likelihood be revised upward in the first, second and final revisions in the next two years,” Chidambaram said in the statement. “I am confident that the final estimate will be not less than 5 per cent for the whole year. Growth in 2014-15 will show a significant improvement over 2013-14.”

Reserve Bank of India Governor Raghuram Rajan unexpectedly raised the repurchase rate by a quarter-point to 8 percent on Jan. 28, the third increase since September.

A central bank panel has suggested India should reduce consumer-price inflation to 8 percent within one year and 6 percent by 2016, and that the RBI should then adopt a 4 percent target with a band of plus or minus two percentage points.

Consumer-price inflation slowed to 9.87 percent in December, while remaining the fastest in a basket of 18 Asia-Pacific economies tracked by Bloomberg.

Growth, Inflation

Chidambaram said Jan. 23 that the monetary authority also has a duty to support growth. Further tightening isn’t anticipated in the near term if consumer-price inflation slows to 8 percent by early 2015, the RBI said Jan. 28.

Inflation is a politically sensitive issue in India, where elections have been lost as prices quickened. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has said his government could have done better at curbing price gains.

The administration is curbing expenditure to narrow the fiscal deficit to about 4.8 percent of gross domestic product this fiscal year, a six-year low. Other economic headwinds stem from an investment logjam, with red tape stalling about $100 billion of projects.

In a sign of budget constraints, the government said this past week it has put off a final agreement to buy 126 Rafale combat planes worth more than $11 billion from Dassault Aviation SA to the next fiscal year.

Manufacturing output will shrink 0.2 percent in the fiscal year ending March 31, and mining output will contract 1.9 percent, according to yesterday’s release. Farm output is set to expand 4.6 percent. Financing, insurance and real estate services will expand 11.2 percent.

Election Outlook

The main opposition Bharatiya Janata Party is set to win 188 seats in the 545-member lower house, surpassing the 182 seats it won in 1999, according to a C-Voter poll for India Today published Jan. 23.

The ruling Congress party may get as few as 91 seats versus 210 now, dropping to its lowest tally on record, the poll indicated. A separate survey on Jan. 24 showed the BJP with as many as 210 seats, and 108 for Congress.

Standard & Poor’s has warned India’s credit rating may be cut to junk unless the election leads to a government capable of reviving growth. If inflation slows, Asia’s third-biggest economy can grow between 5 percent and 6 percent in the next fiscal year ending March 2015, according to the RBI.

“The larger traction for growth will come in the second half” of the next fiscal year, presuming a stable government emerges, said Shubhada Rao, chief economist at Yes Bank Ltd. in Mumbai.

To contact the reporter on this story: Unni Krishnan in New Delhi at

To contact the editor responsible for this story: Daniel Ten Kate at
Title: India test-fires anti-ballistic missile
Post by: S.M.A. on April 27, 2014, 14:55:28
India developing its own ABM system:

Defense News (

India Test-Fires Anti-Ballistic Missile
Apr. 27, 2014 - 12:06PM   |   By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE

NEW DELHI — India successfully test-fired a new anti-ballistic missile on Sunday in a step towards developing a missile defense system which only an elite club of countries has built.

India, which shares borders with arch-rival Pakistan and giant China, both of whom are nuclear-armed, is developing the system that aims to shield it against a ballistic missile attack.

The test was conducted off the east coast on Sunday morning, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) told the Press Trust of India news agency.

“The trial was conducted successfully and all the mission objectives were met,” said DRDO spokesman Ravi Kumar Gupta.


Title: Modi becomes new Indian PM as right-wing BJP party wins election
Post by: S.M.A. on May 16, 2014, 11:52:43
There is concern in Pakistan, China and the West as Modi wins the Indian election: Modi has no foreign policy experience though some experts say that some firebrand rhetoric against Pakistan should not be an indicator of how he will actually rule.

Globe and Mail (

India's right-wing BJP wins in landslide
The Globe and Mail


But even though Mr. Modi had long been considered the front-runner, the scale of his apparent victory is simply breathtaking: He has not only led his party to its best-ever electoral result, but in the process he has almost single-handedly wiped out the ruling Congress party across the subcontinent – a dramatic political upheaval that will redefine modern India and set the world’s second most populous nation on a strikingly new path.

Mr. Modi’s epochal accomplishment has also wrenched the country from the grasp of India’s dynastic Nehru-Gandhi family, which has ruled Congress – and the country – almost uninterrupted since independence from Great Britain.

With a note of triumph, Mr. Modi tweeted: ‘India has won!’ on Friday, as television channels aired footage of an emotional Mr. Modi meeting his mother and touching her feet, a traditional gesture when Hindus seek the blessings of an older relative. His mother then marked his forehead with vermilion and fed him sweets.

Mr. Modi and his party appeared set to win more than enough seats to form a majority government in the world’s largest democracy, ending a decade of rule by the center-left Congress party.

As results flooded in on Friday, senior Congress leaders conceded defeat. Party president Sonia Gandhi and her son Rahul Gandhi, the party vice-president who led the party into the elections, accepted both defeat and blame for the almost unbelievable scale of their organization’s defeat.


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on July 03, 2014, 22:11:05
From the American Interest, an analysis of what we may expect from India's new Prime Minister and government. As Canadians, we should be both interested and as helpful as possible, since India represents a huge market and opportunity for us, and as the largest Anglosphere partner, will become increasingly important in the Anglosphere, among the Maritime powers and the world in general:

Part 1

Narendra Modi’s Path Forward

If Narendra Modi’s landslide victory was in large measure due to the failure of the preceding Singh government, he now faces a big challenge and a huge opportunity. Here’s how he might proceed on both the economic and foreign policy fronts.

Published on July 2, 2014
In the few weeks he has been at India’s helm, after an unexpected landslide victory in the general elections, Narendra Modi has raised hopes around the world, including the United States and China, that Delhi is ready for a productive engagement with its external partners. These expectations are rooted in the nature of the mandate that Modi won, his reputation for economic pragmatism as the chief minister of Gujarat province, which he ran for more than a decade, and the structural opportunities that have long presented themselves to India on the international stage.

Modi’s predecessor, Manmohan Singh, was widely liked and respected abroad as a wise elder statesman. Singh, who had no prior foreign policy experience, instinctively understood the extraordinary opportunities that awaited India after a period of sustained high growth rates from the early 1990s, when he had launched reforms as the finance minister of the nation. His first year as Prime Minister saw the unveiling of a historic civil nuclear initiative and a new framework for defense cooperation with the United States in 2005. Equally significant were an agreement on the principles to settle a boundary dispute with China and a opening up of a back channel negotiation with Pakistan to resolve the intractable problem of Kashmir. In 2005 India joined the newly formed East Asia Summit and began to engage fully with the geopolitics of Asia, from which it had excluded itself for decades.

Singh presided over unprecedented growth rates of close to 9 percent in the middle of the past decade; the rare prospect of improving relations with both China and the United States; the resolution of India’s longstanding territorial disputes; and the reclamation of its role as a major power in Asia. There was a worldwide perception that India’s long-awaited rise was inevitable, and most major nations vied with each other to deepen ties with India.

Tragically, this rare moment in India’s international relations evaporated over the next nine years of Singh’s decade-long tenure as Prime Minister. The lack of economic reforms and the drift toward populism in the earlier years of UPA rule were compounded by the global economic crisis. India’s growth rate soon plunged to five percent and below. The political drift within the government left it unable to advance bilateral relations with major powers, including the United States. Regional initiatives toward Pakistan and China sputtered, and hopes that India would play a larger role in Asia were dampened.

If Modi’s landslide victory was in large measure due to the failure of the Singh government, he now faces a big challenge and a huge opportunity. It is indeed impossible for any leader of a large and diverse country like India to fulfil all the demands that are being made on Modi. On the other hand, the drift under Singh has left much low-hanging fruit for Modi to pluck. Even small steps that restore a sense of political purposefulness in Delhi could significantly improve India’s image and generate much space for the new government to operate on the international stage. Modi’s success in securing an absolute majority for his party after a gap of thirty years has the potential to end the prolonged rule of weak governments in Delhi. If the compulsions of coalition politics limited Delhi’s ability to make bold economic reforms and significant foreign policy initiatives, Modi has the mandate to do both.

On the economic front, Modi appears prepared to bite the bullet. The depth of Modi’s commitment to reform will be visible after his government presents the budget for the year in mid-July. Those in the West looking for wholesale privatisation or dramatic expansion of market access, however, might be disappointed. He will rather attempt to craft a reform agenda that is sustainable in the complex Indian political environment. That agenda will emphasize shoring up India’s economic fundamentals and creating the right environment for investment by domestic and foreign capital.

Modi is perhaps the most business-friendly Prime Minister India has ever had. Yet he will have to fend off the long-entrenched suspicion of the private sector within the political class, including his own party, which is full of nativists and economic populists. Even modest success on the economic front is bound to generate greater space for Modi to improve relations with India’s immediate neighbours, narrow the growing strategic gap with China, and make Delhi an important player in shaping the balance of power in Asia, the Indian Ocean, and beyond.

Modi’s unabashed celebration of India’s cultural nationalism and his reputation as a Hindu nationalist and Pakistan-basher, however, had raised concerns at home and abroad, especially in the West, that he might adopt a tough and muscular approach toward Islamabad and precipitate a military crisis. In power, though, Modi took a very different tack. He invited the leaders of the seven South Asian neighbors, including Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, to participate in his swearing-in ceremony. That all of them accepted and came on very short notice underlined the fact that India’s neighbours have long been waiting for a credible interlocutor in Delhi. Although the talks between Modi and Sharif were positive and the two sides have agreed to resume their dialogue, few expect a breakthrough. Many agreements have been negotiated but not implemented under the UPA government. These include pacts on normalization of trade relations and visa liberalization. Among other possibilities discussed were the export of electricity and diesel from India to Pakistan. If there is no major terror incident in India emanating from across the border in Pakistan, and if Sharif’s powerful army allows him to move forward, a positive phase in bilateral relations might be at hand. But these are big “ifs.”

Beyond Pakistan, Modi appears to be keen to reclaim India’s primacy in the Subcontinent. China’s emergence as the principal external player in the Subcontinent has raised concerns in the Indian strategic community. This in turn demands that India resolve disputes with its neighbors and deepen economic integration under the aegis of Delhi. There is some recognition of the latter in the Modi government’s emphasis on strengthening the South Asian Association of Regional Cooperation, the main regional forum. Modi has also underlined the emphasis on neighborhood diplomacy by making tiny Bhutan his first foreign destination. His Foreign Minister, Sushma Swaraj, chose Bangladesh for her first trip abroad. Delhi’s effort to deepen ties with the neighbours over the past few years was stymied in part by opposition from provinces, such as those bordering Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. The strategic community in Delhi has agonized over the federalization of Indian foreign policy, and Modi’s strong mandate promises to reverse this unfortunate tendency. While affirming Delhi’s prerogative to conduct foreign policy, Modi has promised to expand consultations with the state chief ministers and make them partners in crafting national policies. While creating more political space at home for dealing with the neighbors, Modi is expected to press them hard to show greater respect for India’s regional interests. In any case, a vigorous South Asian policy has become central to the principal strategic challenge that India faces—the rise of its giant neighbour to the North.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on July 03, 2014, 22:11:54
Part 2

China’s emergence as a great power has also presented an opportunity for India in East and South East Asia. China’s growing assertiveness in its Asian territorial disputes has led many of Beijing’s neighbours to seek stronger strategic partnerships with India as part of an effort to maintain an effective balance of power in the region. One of the first foreign destinations for Modi outside of the Subcontinent will be Tokyo, where Shinzo Abe is enthusiastic about building a stronger economic and strategic partnership with Delhi. Many ASEAN nations that have been disappointed by Delhi’s inability to carve out a larger role in Asia would be pleased if Modi pursued a more vigorous diplomatic and security engagement with the region. Already, he explicitly has underlined the importance of stronger defense ties with the smaller countries of Asia and the Indian Ocean. Given his party’s strong commitment to national defense, Modi is expected to raise India’s defense spending, which had fallen below 2 percent of GDP; accelerate weapons procurement, which had stalled under the previous government; facilitate foreign direct investment in the expansion of India’s domestic defense industrial base; and step up arms exports.

China also emerges as an important factor in India’s relations with the United States as Washington copes with the rapidly changing balance of power in Asia. China, locked in a confrontation in East Asia, has been sending positive signals to India. Well before the West had taken notice of Modi, China found him a valuable economic partner in Gujarat; it laid out the red carpet for him when he travelled to Beijing some years ago. At the same time, Modi would not downplay the security threats from China. During the election campaign, Modi visited the northeastern frontier claimed by China and denounced Beijing’s “expansionist mindset.”

In power, then, Modi is outlining a twin track policy toward China. He has proclaimed a strong interest in expanding economic cooperation with China; he has agreed, for example, to set up industrial parks for Chinese investments, which would also hopefully address the problem of the expanding trade deficit with Beijing. On the security front, he is actively clearing the way for long-delayed projects to modernize the Indian military and to improve Delhi’s defenses on the disputed frontier with China. He is also reminding Beijing that he has the requisite domestic political strength to negotiate a boundary settlement with China.

As a realist, too, Modi is quite conscious of the fact that India needs a strong partnership with the United States to successfully pursue India’s economic and foreign policy interests, including the challenge of balancing China. Given that he has been denied a U.S. visa since 2005, under unproven charges that he did not do enough to stop the anti-Muslim riots in Gujarat during 2002, there is much discomfort between Modi and Washington. During the campaign, Modi had repeatedly stated that his personal issues with Washington would not be allowed to affect India’s important relationship with the United States. Overruling the widespread sentiment within his party and the strategic community that he should not travel to Washington without a formal apology from the United States on the visa issue, Modi quickly accepted an invitation from the Obama Administration for a White House meeting in September.

For his part, Modi is eager to put the past behind him and seek a productive relationship with the United States. But the Obama Administration has much work to do. For one, Washington must demonstrate genuine political warmth to Modi and assuage the deep, personal hurt on the visa issue. For another, Washington will have to recognize that India is on the cusp of significant internal change and must be prepared to make the best of it.

Modi’s arrival allows the two states to make a fresh start, to overcome the accumulated frustrations of the last few years and lay out a bold agenda for bilateral cooperation. The premises of 2005, when India and the United States took big steps toward a strategic partnership, continue to hold. A strong India makes it easier for Washington to sustain a balance of power in Asia that is favorable for America. Delhi, on the other hand, needs the full support of the United States to emerge as a great power on the world stage. A decade later, thanks to the relative weakening of both United States and India in relation to China, Washington and Delhi need each other more than ever before.

C. Raja Mohan is a distinguished fellow at the Observer Research Foundation in Delhi and the foreign affairs columnist for the Indian Express. He is a non-resident senior associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and a visiting professor at the Institute of South Asian Studies at the National University of Singapore. He is on the editorial board of The American Interest.
Title: India to fast-track purchase of new Russian submarines
Post by: S.M.A. on August 04, 2014, 20:01:27
Hopefully there won't be problems with these new subs compared to the recent submarine accidents the Indian Navy has had with 2 Kilo class subs in recent years.

Defense News (

Indian Navy Wants To Fast-Track Purchase of Russian Subs
Aug. 2, 2014 - 03:45AM   |   By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI

NEW DELHI — The Indian Defence Ministry’s delay in floating a tender for six conventional submarines appears to be helping Russia, as the Indian Navy is now asking the MoD to buy two Russian-built Amur-class subs to help restock the shrinking force.

The $12 billion global tender would cover the purchase of six conventional submarines with air independent propulsion (AIP) technology under the Indian Navy’s Project 75-I.

A high-level team from Rosoboronexport was in New Delhi two weeks ago to negotiate the sale or lease of two Amur-class subs, said a source in MoD who gave no details of the deliberations.


Title: India deploys Akash missile units near China border
Post by: S.M.A. on August 22, 2014, 15:25:09
A response to Chinese troops crossing the Indian border a few days ago?

Times of India (

With eye on China, India deploys Akash missiles in northeast

NEW DELHI: After basing its most potent Sukhoi-30MKI fighters at Tezpur and Chabua, India has now begun deploying six Akash surface-to-air missile (SAM) squadrons in the northeast to deter Chinese jets, helicopters and drones against any misadventure in the region.

Defence ministry sources on Thursday said IAF has started getting deliveries of the six Akash missile squadrons, which can "neutralize" multiple targets at 25-km interception range in all-weather conditions, earmarked for the eastern theatre.

"IAF has deployed the first two Akash squadrons at the Mirage-2000 base in Gwalior and Sukhoi base in Pune. The next six squadrons, as approved by the Cabinet Committee on Security, are to guard against any threat from the northern borders," said a source.

This long-delayed but finally successful induction of the Akash systems, developed by DRDO and manufactured by defence PSU Bharat Dynamics, has also led to scrapping of the protracted discussions to develop the 'Maitri' short-range SAMs with France at a cost of around Rs 30,000 crore.

The Akash deployment in the northeast is in tune with the overall plan to progressively achieve "meaningful and credible deterrence" against China along the 4,057-km Line of Actual Control (LAC).


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on September 01, 2014, 18:45:52
The Economist weighs in on India's future prospects. There is a great deal of potential that can be tapped, and I would certainly want to see Canada getting far more involved since India as a member of the Anglosphere is a more natural "fit" than many other nations of the world. Still, until India addresses many of the issues identified in the article, there will be a great deal of wasted potential:|d

Eastern promises

Asia will gain from India finally taking foreign policy seriously
Aug 30th 2014 | From the print edition

AT THEIR nearest points, India and Indonesia are barely 160 kilometres (100 miles) apart across the Malacca Strait. Yet almost nobody thinks of these two big countries as neighbours. One reason has been India’s historic isolation. Distracted by Pakistan, India long fretted over its western border. Under Nehru, its leader after independence, a principled policy of non-alignment led to moralising that was of little relevance to the rest of Asia. Under his protectionist daughter, Indira Gandhi, India looked to the Soviet Union and closed itself to foreign capital and trade, spurning the policies that made East Asia rich. As long as India’s economic and military muscle atrophied at home, it wielded little influence abroad.

There have been steps forward. Back in 1991, a reformist prime minister, Narasimha Rao, started to open the economy and laid down a policy of “looking east”. In 2009 India signed a free-trade deal in goods with the Association of South-East Asian Nations, which has helped lift trade with those countries to a handy $80 billion a year, potentially rising to $280 billion in a decade. Two-way trade with China is up from $7 billion ten years ago to $65 billion. India now hosts regional joint maritime exercises every two years in the Indian Ocean; in February navies from 17 countries took part. And India’s ties with Japan have gradually grown, as Asia’s two “middle powers” have both watched the rise of China.

Foreign policy
So it would be unfair to say that Narendra Modi is starting Indian foreign policy afresh. But the country’s new prime minister is making more of a noise than his predecessors. On August 30th he heads off on a five-day trip to Japan. It is the first salvo in an intense few weeks that will see visits from China’s leader, Xi Jinping, and Tony Abbott, Australia’s leader. Meanwhile India’s foreign minister, Sushma Swaraj, visited Hanoi this week as part of a South-East Asian tour. India’s president, Pranab Mukherjee, follows in September—a sign of how India’s defence co-operation with South-East Asia is growing.

A fresh broom
Good. Tighter relations with Japan are important for security (see article). With Australia, India is likely to sign a deal to buy uranium. It is welcome that the world’s most populous democracy should make its influence felt in its region. But India will not realise its true promise so long as it is held back by three legacies that still linger from the days of Nehru.

First, it has differences with two of its neighbours, which are at best a distraction and at worst an obstacle. Given how much it has to gain from peace with Pakistan, India should strive to launch talks that were recently put off because it objected to contacts between Pakistani diplomats and Kashmiri separatists. For Mr Modi, a Hindu nationalist who is feared by many Indian Muslims, a settlement with Pakistan should be a special priority. But Mr Modi also has a disputed border with China in the Himalayas. That too is a flashpoint for conflict, which he needs to discuss with Mr Xi—if only because India’s relations with China will count for more commercially and strategically than its relations with any other Asian country.

Second, to promote India as a trading nation, Mr Modi should ditch protectionism. He blundered in July when he rescinded India’s agreement to a World Trade Organisation deal to ease trade, opting instead to protect food and farm subsidies at home. Since India plays no part in many other regional trade forums, such as the Trans Pacific Partnership, it risks falling behind others who will set higher standards.

Last of all, he needs a government service that can support his diplomacy. India’s foreign service is roughly the size of New Zealand’s. The country’s defence-procurement system is rotten and dependent on second-rate state-owned firms. Newly eased restrictions on foreigners investing in defence could help. And India’s armed forces need skilled employees, modern equipment, more outside scrutiny and better co-operation between commands. For India to become influential abroad, Mr Modi has to do some tightening up at home.
Title: Al Qaeda says they've expanded in India
Post by: S.M.A. on September 04, 2014, 12:30:25
While the rest of the world is focused on ISIS in Iraq and Syria, as well as Putin's aggression in the Ukraine...

Quote (

Al-Qaida Leader Says It Has Expanded into India

Ayman al-Zawahri
Associated Press | Sep 04, 2014 | by Tim Sullivan

NEW DELHI — Al-Qaida has expanded into India, the leader of the terror group said in a video released Thursday, vowing that its militants would bring Islamic law to the entire subcontinent and "wage jihad against its enemies."

At least three Indian states with large Muslim populations have been put on alert in the wake of the video's release, local TV stations reported, though there was no indication of an increased security presence.

The new group "is the fruit of a blessed effort of more than two years to gather the mujahedeen in the Indian subcontinent into a single entity," al-Qaida chief Ayman al-Zawahri said in the video, which was seen online by the SITE monitoring group.

While his comments raised concerns in India, al-Zawahri's message seemed largely directed at his own rivals in the international jihad movement, and with raising al-Qaida's profile in the wake of repeated successes by the Islamic State militant group.


Title: India, China sign landmark trade deals in Pres. Xi's state visit to India
Post by: S.M.A. on September 18, 2014, 15:16:53
Beijing and New Delhi increasing trade links despite a recent border dispute when Chinese troops entered Indian territory a few weeks ago, IIRC.


China's Xi Jinping signs landmark deals on India visit


Under the investment plans, China pledged to:

Help bring India's ageing railway system railway system up-to-date with high-speed links and upgraded railway stations.
Set up industrial parks in Gujarat and Maharashtra.
Give more market access to India to products, including pharmaceuticals and farm products.
Both sides also focussed on increasing co-operation in trade, space exploration and civil nuclear energy.

Mr Modi called for an early settlement on the disputed common border between the two countries and said the "true potential of our relations" would be realised when there was "peace in our relations and in the borders".


Title: India reports triumph in 1st Mars probe mission
Post by: S.M.A. on September 24, 2014, 03:29:00
Seems that India beat China in being the first Asian nation to successfully send a probe to Mars:

Reuters (

India triumphs in maiden Mars mission
NEW DELHI Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:06am EDT

(Reuters) - India's low-cost mission to Mars successfully entered the red planet's orbit on Wednesday, crowning India as the first country to complete the trip at its maiden attempt.

The success of the Mars Orbiter Mission, lauded for its low price tag of $74 million, will boost India's five-decade-old space program that newly-elected Prime Minister Narendra Modi aims to expand with better infrastructure and technology.

With a spacecraft around Mars, India joins a small group of nations - the United States, Russia and Europe - that have successfully sent probes to orbit or land on Mars. Others, however, failed several times initially.


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on October 30, 2014, 14:17:27
Many of the issues in India are actually recreated on a smaller scale here (There may not be physical checkpoints between provinces, but there are bureaucratic roadblocks to interprovincial trade, labour mobility and capital movement). At least there is some movement to reduce these blockages:


India has some low hanging fruit for higher GDP growth

Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest

 The World Bank has an India development update (31 pages)
Implementing GST and dismantling inter-state check posts are the most critical reforms needed for Indian manufacturing.

The potential gains of more efficient and reliable supply chains are enormous. Simply halving the delays due to road blocks, tolls and other stoppages could cut freight times by some 20-30 percent, and logistics costs by even more, as much as 30-40 percent. This would be tantamount to a gain in competitiveness of some 3-4 percent of net sales for key manufacturing sectors, helping India return to a path of high growth and enabling large-scale job creation.
According to the Update, a twice yearly report on the Indian economy and its prospects, India’s economic growth is expected to rise to 5.6 percent in FY15, followed by further acceleration to 6.4 percent and 7.0 percent in FY 2016 and FY 2017.
According to the Update, India’s longer term growth potential remains high due to favorable demographics, relatively high savings, recent policies and efforts to improve skills and education, and domestic market integration. Improved growth prospects in the US will support India’s merchandise and services exports, while stronger remittance inflows and declining oil prices are expected to support domestic demand.
Potential GDP growth is at 10%, so India is expected to be significantly underperforming relative to what India could be doing.

The projections could, however, face risks from external shocks, including financial market disruptions arising out of changes in monetary policy in high income countries, slower global growth, higher oil prices, and adverse investor sentiment arising out of geo-political tensions in the Middle East and Eastern Europe.
Domestically, the risks include challenges to energy supply and fiscal pressures from weak revenue collection in the short term, the Update said. However, risks could be mitigated to a large extent by focusing on reforms that help the manufacturing sector.

Title: India rebuilding sub fleet after being rattled by Chinese sub force
Post by: S.M.A. on December 04, 2014, 13:45:01
Rattled by Chinese submarines, India joins other nations in rebuilding fleet

NEW DELHI (Reuters) - India is speeding up a navy modernization program and leaning on its neighbors to curb Chinese submarine activity in the Indian Ocean, as nations in the region become increasingly jittery over Beijing's growing undersea prowess.

Just months after a stand-off along the disputed border dividing India and China in the Himalayas, Chinese submarines have shown up in Sri Lanka, the island nation off India's southern coast. China has also strengthened ties with the Maldives, the Indian Ocean archipelago.


Prime Minister Narendra Modi's government has ordered an accelerated tendering process to build six conventional diesel-electric submarines at an estimated cost of 500 billion rupees ($8.1 billion), in addition to six similar submarines that French firm DCNS is assembling in Mumbai port to replace a nearly 30-year-old fleet hit by a run of accidents.

The country's first indigenously built nuclear submarine - loaded with nuclear-tipped missiles and headed for sea trials this month - joins the fleet in late 2016. In the meantime, India is in talks with Russia to lease a second nuclear-propelled submarine, navy officials told Reuters.

India's navy currently has only 13 ageing diesel-electric submarines, only half of which are operational at any given time due to refits. Last year, one of its submarines sank after explosions and a fire while it was docked in Mumbai.

Title: India's "Cold Start" nuke weapons policy
Post by: S.M.A. on December 07, 2014, 02:46:08
India's "Cold Start" nuke weapons policy seems to be quite a contrast to China's "no first strike" nukes policy.

Macleans (

The new nuclear threat

India and Pakistan are building up their arsenals, and one terror attack could ignite an all-out war


By Adnan R. Khan


Pakistan, concerned by the fact that it cannot compete in conventional military terms against a much richer India, has responded by developing its nuclear capability to include tactical warheads, giving it the ability to strike back with precision nuclear weapons targeting advancing Indian troops, without resorting to all-out nuclear war. “India’s strategy has created a lot of consternation in Pakistan,” says Ladwig, who has written extensively on the evolution of India’s military. “The U.S. has put pressure on India to back away from the Cold Start strategy.”

While Indian authorities have disavowed the Cold Start name, the strategy itself remains intact, Ladwig adds, but will take many years to reach operational levels. The Indian army, he says, is still too outdated to achieve the desired goals of a Cold Start offensive at the moment, but, 10 or 15 years down the road, things could change dramatically.

If that happens, which appears likely, considering India’s current rate of weapons procurement, it would push the nuclear Armageddon clock forward significantly, warn experts such as Ladwig and the authors of the Council on Foreign Relations report. The chain of events that could lead to a nuclear confrontation are relatively straightforward: In the event of a large-scale terrorist attack in India blamed on Pakistan-based militants, Indian authorities would demand action (as they did following the Mumbai attack). Pakistan would almost certainly deny involvement. Under Cold Start, India would (unlike after Mumbai) launch a military strike inside Pakistan. The goal would be to disorient the Pakistanis and, before they could recover, control a buffer zone inside Pakistan 10 to 15 km wide—providing it a strong position for any negotiations.

But, as Ladwig points out, “an operational Cold Start capability could lead Pakistan to lower its nuclear red line, put its nuclear weapons on a higher state of readiness, develop tactical nuclear weapons or undertake some equally destabilizing course of action.” For Pakistani generals, Cold Start might not look like a limited operation, but rather a prelude to a wider invasion or a tactic to subjugate Pakistan to India’s will. Neither side would want to use its nuclear weapons, but the trigger could be as simple as an overzealous Pakistani artillery commander armed with a tactical nuke, or a miscommunication on the Indian side.


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on December 18, 2014, 12:08:56
An Indian sea-based nuclear deterrent?

US Naval Institute (

New Indian Boomer Starts Sea Trials

By: Sam LaGrone
Published: December 16, 2014 2:01 PM • Updated: December 16, 2014 2:01 PM

India’s first domestically built nuclear ballistic missile submarine (SSBN) started sea trials on Monday, according to local press reports.

The 6,500-ton Arihant left the harbor at Visakhapatnam, on India’s eastern shore, following a year and a half of tests closer to shore and is a first for the Indian shipbuilding base in developing a domestic ability to construct nuclear submarine.

However, the submarine maybe more a test and development platform than an operational boomer.


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on January 21, 2015, 10:04:25
New Delhi's diplomatic countermoves against Beijing.

Reuters (

As Obama visits, signs that India is pushing back against China

By Frank Jack Daniel

NEW DELHI (Reuters) - When Sri Lanka unexpectedly turfed out President Mahinda Rajapaksa in an election this month, it was the biggest setback in decades for China's expansion into South Asia - and a remarkable diplomatic victory for India.

Despite New Delhi's protestations, diplomats and politicians in the region say India played a role in organizing the opposition against pro-China Rajapaksa.

His successor, President Maithripala Sirisena, has said India is the "first, main concern" of his foreign policy and that he will review all projects awarded to Chinese firms, including a sea reclamation development in Colombo that would give Beijing a strategic toehold on India's doorstep.

India has pushed back against China elsewhere in the region since Prime Minister Narendra Modi took office in May, improving ties with Japan and Vietnam, both locked in territorial disputes with Beijing, and contesting a port project in Bangladesh that could otherwise have been a cakewalk for China.

The new robust diplomacy, which Modi calls "Act East", has delighted Washington, which has been nudging India for years to dovetail with the U.S. strategic pivot toward the region.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on January 24, 2015, 15:45:48
Obama connecting with the new Indian leadership:

Reuters (

Unlikely buddies Obama and Modi aim high on India trip

By Frank Jack Daniel

NEW DELHI (Reuters) - In a fresh bid to make India an enduring strategic partner, U.S. President Barack Obama lands in New Delhi on Sunday for a highly symbolic parade and to nurture friendship with a prime minister who until last year was persona non grata in Washington.

Obama will be the first U.S. president to attend India's Republic Day parade, a show of military might long associated with the anti-Americanism of the Cold War, and will host a radio show with Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

His presence at Monday's procession at Modi's personal invitation is the latest revival in a roller-coaster relationship between the two largest democracies that just a year ago was in tatters.


Title: US to aid India in building aircraft carriers
Post by: S.M.A. on January 27, 2015, 01:34:15
One result of the recent state visit of Obama to India:

Reminds me of a thread a couple of years ago that discussed the possibility of selling the then-serving USS Kitty Hawk to India:

DoD Buzz (

U.S. to Aid India in Building Aircraft Carriers

Tucked away in a new defense deal with India was an agreement for the U.S. to aid India in fielding aircraft carriers that China views as a threat.

As part of a Defense Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI) signed by President Obama and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Sunday, the U.S. agreed to “form a working group to explore aircraft carrier technology sharing and design.”

Under the agreement, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said that “we will begin to realize the enormous potential of the U.S.-India defense industrial partnership. We have further strengthened this partnership with an agreement that will allow us to continue science and technology collaboration for the next 15 years.”


The Times of India reported that the U.S. has agreed to aid India in developing electro-magnetic launch systems for the Vikrant’s aircraft.

India was also planning to construct a much larger carrier of 65,000 tons to be called the Vishal, which could be nuclear powered, the Press Trust of India news agency reported.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on January 30, 2015, 15:54:25
The Indian army is looking to replace their fleet of BMP's with a modern 8X8 IFV similar to the LAV. In addition to the 30mm cannon and coax machine gun, it also mounts 2 X ATGM and is also amphibious:

Kestrel APC
The new Indian Kestrel 8x8 armored personnel carrier is similar to modern Western designs

Entered service   ?
Crew   3 men
Personnel   9 men
Dimensions and weight
Weight   22.5 - 26 t
Length   ?
Width   ?
Height   ?
Main gun   30-mm cannon
ATGW   Javelin
Machine guns   1 x 7.62-mm
Ammunition load
Main gun   ?
ATGW   ?
Machine guns   ?
Engine   diesel
Engine power   600 hp
Maximum road speed   100 km/h
Amphibious speed on water   10 km/h
Range   ~ 600 km
Gradient   60%
Side slope   40%
Vertical step   0.6 m
Trench   2 m
Fording   Amphibious

   The Kestrel 8x8 armored personnel carrier was developed in India by Tata Motors and DRDO. It is also referred as Wheeled Armored Amphibious Platform. It was first publicly revealed in 2014.

   Design of the Kestrel is similar to modern Western armored vehicle of this class. Engine is located at the forward part of the hull while troop compartment is to the rear. It is claimed that this APC is based on a modular design. The Kestrel is intended to operate in the frontline, carrying soldiers into the battle zone. It has adequate protection and firepower.

   This new Indian armored vehicle has an all-welded hull. Seats are attached to the roof for improved blast protection. Fuel tank are placed outside the troop compartment for additional safety.

   The Kestrel is fitted with Norwegian Kongsberg MCT-30-R remotely controlled turret, armed with American 30-mm Mk44 Bushmaster II cannon. This weapon is used on a number of modern armored vehicles, such as Bionix IFV, CV9030 IFV, Guarani APC, Pandur II APC and some other. It is possible to convert this cannon to a 40-mm caliber. Only barrel and few parts have to be changed. This cannon fires Armor-Piercing Incendiary (API), High-Explosive Incendiary (HEI) and Armor-Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot Tracer (APFSDS-T) rounds. This cannon has effective range of 3 000 m. There is also a secondary 7.62-mm machine gun. The Kongsberg turret allows the installation of Javelin anti-tank guided missiles along the cannon.

   A prototype that was revealed in 2014 also had a remotely controlled weapon station with 12.7-mm machine gun and one more Javelin launcher. It was mounted on top of the turret roof. Production APCs can be fitted with various weapon stations and turrets, depending on customer requirements.

   This new Indian armored personnel carrier has a crew of three and carried 9 fully-equipped troops. Infantrymen egress and dismount via rear power-operated ramp. Also there are roof-hatches for emergency exit. Troops are provided with firing ports and associated vision blocks to fire their individual weapons.
The Kestrel has high power-to-weight ratio for mountainous terrain. It is powered by a turbocharged diesel engine, developing 600 hp. Engine is located at the forward part of the hull. This armored personnel carrier is fully amphibious. On water it is propelled by two water jets.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on February 02, 2015, 22:25:48
A different breed of radicals who might be just as suspicious of and belligerent toward India's western trading partners as they are of Pakistan...

Reuters (

Hardline Indian Hindus become Modi's enemies from within

By Andrew MacAskill and Rupam Jain Nair

RISHIKESH, India (Reuters) - In an ashram near the Ganges river in the Himalayan foothills, Indian priest-turned-politician Sakshi Maharaj mimes rowing a boat to illustrate what will happen if Prime Minister Narendra Modi's government ignores Hindu nationalist demands."Modi will have to be a boatman: one oar must focus on the economy and the other must concentrate on the Hindu agenda," says Maharaj, clad in saffron robes and sitting cross-legged on a bed.

He twirls his bejeweled fingers in the air, explaining that otherwise the boat will spin in circles.The Hindu priest, who has been charged with rioting and inciting communal violence, is the embodiment of hardline religious elements in Modi's party whose strident behavior is dragging on the government's economic reform agenda.

In recent months, Maharaj has created uproar by describing Mahatma Gandhi's Hindu nationalist assassin as a patriot, saying Hindu women should give birth to four children to ensure the religion survives and by calling for Hindus who convert to Islam and Christianity to be given the death penalty.For the first time since the election last year, some lawmakers in Modi's Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) are rebelling against his focus on mending the economy and governance at the expense of promoting Hinduism.


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: George Wallace on February 02, 2015, 23:33:40
The radicals in India have been flying under the radar for quite a few years now, with the focus of most nations being on Al Qaeda, and now ISIS/ISIL
Title: India clears $8 bill. warship project to counter Chinese Navy
Post by: S.M.A. on February 19, 2015, 10:34:35
An update on the Indian Navy's expansion to counter China's PLA-N:

From Reuters via Rappler (

India clears $8B warships project to counter Chinese navy
It comes just months after ordering new submarines to close the gap with the Chinese navy in the Indian Ocean

Sanjeev Miglani, Reuters

Published 9:45 AM, Feb 19, 2015

NEW DELHI, India – India's government has cleared a $8 billion plan to build the country's most advanced warships, defense sources said, just months after ordering new submarines to close the gap with the Chinese navy in the Indian Ocean.

Since taking over last year, Prime Minister Narendra Modi has signaled his resolve to build a strong military after years of neglect that military planners say has left India unable to fight a two-front war against China and Pakistan.


The Times of India said the government had also approved 6 nuclear-powered submarines for a further $8 billion. The defense source said he had no knowledge of the nuclear submarine program, which traditionally has been kept under wraps.

The frigates in a program called Project-17A will be built at government shipyards in Mumbai and Kolkata, in a boost for Modi's Make in India campaign to build a domestic defense industrial base and reduce dependence on expensive imports that have made India the world's biggest arms market.


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on March 31, 2015, 15:39:07
More on Indian radicalization, only this time it seems to be the Hindus against the Christians. There are plenty of religious divides that could potentially hamstring India, the danger suggested here is their Prime Minister may be a force that encourages or fails to moderate radicalism, rather than a force against radicals:

Which Modi Will We See?

In an important article in The Hindu, an Indian Christian recounts how for the first time in his life, he feels genuinely threatened in his homeland for his religious beliefs:

The new war on Christianity is counterproductive, and strategically stupid. It will not only harm the image of India globally, it puts into jeopardy the millions of Hindus living peacefully and happily in the U.S., Britain, Europe, Canada and Australia. I have already begun to read about hate graffiti sprouting up on Hindu temples in the U.S. The NRIs who funded the Modi campaign will not be pleased about the damage to India’s image just as they are beginning to be proud of the country’s emerging global position. Nor will they appreciate the backlash that might affect them sooner or later, as news spreads to churches abroad about the vandalising of Christian churches, the rape of nuns in Kolkata and Orissa, and the burning down of a Delhi church. […]
I opted, very decisively, to stay in India, in the 1970s, when most of my Hindu friends from university fled to the U.S., Canada or Australia in search of a materially better life. I stayed because I am Indian. This is my home. And I, too, as retired IPS officer Julio Ribeiro said in a recent article, feel threatened for the first time in my life, in my country.
Some have been calling Narendra Modi the “Indian Erdogan”. Like Turkey’s Erdogan, Modi represents a mix of opposition to an entrenched, secularized ‘deep state’ that involves elements of liberal reform, along with, perhaps, a religiously based identity politics with a strong authoritarian streak. It is not yet at all clear whether the same grandiosity and intolerance that has become such a danger to Turkey’s economic and political development will appear in India. But the treatment of religious minorities is an important indicator, and one of several that we will be watching.
“Whither India?” is one of the most important questions in the world today; a big part of the answer will unfold as we see how Modi the modernizing liberal and Modi the Hindutva activist manage the tensions between them.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on April 08, 2015, 11:46:57
India's defence bureaucracy makes ours seem like a model of speed and efficiency:

Submarines: Indian Scorpene Scandal Sizzles
April 7, 2015: India's effort to build six French Scorpene submarines under license has been delayed once again. That previous delay was in late 2014 when India said the first Scorpene would enter service in late 2016. Before that (2012) it was announced that the first Scorpene sub would not be ready until 2015. The most recent delays (caused by problems procuring components) will delay the first Scorpene until 2017, or later. The problem is mainly poor management by the Indian firms building the Scorpenes. One of the worst examples of this occurred in 2013 with the departure of ten Spanish technical advisors for the Scorpenes. Their contract expired at the end of March 2013 and, despite the expiration date being well known, Indian bureaucrats were unable to get a new contract in place on time. Similar avoidable delays have occurred several times already and the price has gone up with each delay.

Building the subs in India is very important because it will leave India with thousands of workers and specialists experienced in building modern submarines. But it appears that all this will be wasted because the defense procurement bureaucrats seem to have learned nothing. These officials already caused numerous delays and cost overruns during negotiations to build these diesel-electric submarines. The bureaucrats mismanaged this deal to the extent that it is now more than five years behind schedule. But it is even more behind schedule if you count the several years the Indian bureaucrats delayed it even getting started. The purchase contract was finally signed in 2005. The delays and mismanagement have so far increased the cost of the $4 billion project by 25 percent (to $834 million per sub).

In contrast Malaysia ordered two Scorpenes in 2002. These were built in Spain and France and delivered seven years later. The original plan was to have the first Indian built Scorpene delivered at the end of 2012. But now, because of problems getting the construction facilities and skilled workmen ready, the first Scorpene won't be delivered until 2017 (at the earliest), with one each year after that until all six are delivered. That schedule is subject to change and probably will, for the worse.

After the bureaucrats and politicians dithered for nearly a decade India finally signed a deal to buy the Scorpene in 2005, The delays led to the French increasing prices on some key components and India has problems in getting production going on their end. The first Scorpene was to be built in France, with the other five built in India. While some problems were expected (India has been doing license manufacturing of complex weapons for decades), the defense ministry procurement bureaucrats never ceased to amaze when it came to delaying work or just getting in the way.

The Scorpenes are similar to the Agosta 90B subs (also French) that Pakistan recently bought. The first of the Agostas was built in France, but the other two were built in Pakistan. The Scorpenes purchase was seen as a response to the Pakistani Agostas. The Scorpene are a more recent design, the result of cooperation between French and Spanish sub builders. The Agosta is a 1,500 ton (surface displacement) diesel-electric sub with a 36 man crew and four 533mm (21 inch) torpedo tubes (with 20 torpedoes and/or anti-ship missiles carried). The Scorpene is a little heavier (1,700 tons), has a smaller crew (32), and is a little faster. It has six 533mm torpedo tubes and carries 18 torpedoes and/or missiles. Both models can be equipped with an AIP (air independent propulsion) system. This enables the sub to stay under longer, thus making the sub harder to find. AIP allows the sub to travel under water for more than a week, at low speed (5-10 kilometers an hour). Two of the Indian Scorpenes are to have Indian made AIP installed.

All this ineffective urgency is in play because India's submarine fleet is dying of old age and new boats are not going to arrive in time. It's not like this was a surprise, but the Indian defense procurement bureaucracy has long been noted as slow, sloppy, and stubborn, especially in the face of demands that it speed up. The twisted tale of the tardy submarines is particularly painful.

The plan was to have a dozen new subs in service by the end of the decade. At present, there will be (with a bit of luck) three or four of them in service by then. The procurement bureaucracy is still seeking a supplier for the second batch of six diesel-electric subs. This second six probably won’t even begin arriving by the end of the decade. It's hard to say, although the defense procurement nabobs speak of "fast tracking" this project, but long-time observers are not expecting speed.

Because of the Scorpene delays, some of the elderly Type 209s are being kept in service (but not allowed out to sea much) for several more years. Meanwhile several of the older Kilos have reached retirement age. Thus, by the time the first Scorpene arrives in 2017, India will only have five or six working subs. India believes it needs at least 18 non-nuclear subs in service to deal with Pakistan and China.

The hulls of all six Scorpenes have been completed, but filling those subs up with all the necessary equipment is an even more difficult task. Moreover, India insists that some of that equipment be manufactured in India, and that introduces even more complications and delays. Indian firms have a spotty track record in this area.

India is also building and buying nuclear subs. India received a Russian Akula nuclear attack (SSN) sub last year. This one is on lease with the option to buy. Indian SSNs and SSBNs (missile carrying boats) are under development, as they have been for decades.

While India was largely concerned with the Pakistani navy when the Scorpene contract was negotiated and signed, China is now seen as the primary adversary. The Chinese subs are not as effective as the Pakistani boats, both because of less advanced technology and less well trained crews. Pakistan noted this and recently ordered eight late-model Chinese subs. India could use their Scorpenes to confront any Chinese attempt to expand their naval presence into the Indian Ocean. Thus the delays and cost overruns with the Scorpenes are causing quite a lot of commotion in India. But at the rate India is going, it will take some 15 years of construction before all six of the Scorpenes are in service. At that point, India would have about a dozen subs (including nuclear powered models under construction). China will have over 60 boats, about 20 percent of them nuclear. China does have a lot for its warships to deal with off its coasts and in the Western Pacific but it does retain the capability of putting more subs off the Indian coast than can the Indian Navy.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on May 05, 2015, 22:18:27
Diplomat (

Sea Trials of Indian Navy's Deadliest Sub Going 'Very Well'
However, the Indian Navy still lacks a capable ballistic missile with which to arm the INS Arihant

Sea trials of India’s first indigenously developed ballistic missile nuclear submarine (SSBN) are going “very well”, Indian Navy chief of staff Admiral RK Dhowan observed last week on the sidelines of a naval aviation conference, according to local media reports.

The 6,000-ton nuclear-powered submarine, INS Arihant, began sea-trials  in the Bay of Bengal on December 16, 2014  (the day Pakistan formally surrendered to India in the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 that lead to the creation of Bangladesh). The sea-trials are scheduled to last nine months, followed by extensive weapons testing on board of the vessel lasting at least an equal amount of time. The Arihant‘s reactor already went critical in August 2013.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on May 21, 2015, 23:12:38
More on the Indian Navy's procurement woes:

Cannibalism in the Indian Navy
by Stephen Green

May 8, 2015 - 1:31 pm
It isn’t quite as bad as the headline suggests:

The new Russian built Indian aircraft carrier, INS Vikramaditya, was supposed to be fully operational by mid-2014 and it was, sort of. What was missing was its primary anti-aircraft missile system; the Israeli LRSAM/Barak 8. Also missing was the short range AK-630 Russian made six-barrel 30mm close-in weapon systems (CIWS), for defense against anti-ship missiles. A year later (Vikramaditya arrived from Russia in January 2014) a temporary solution was found. A 32 year old Indian frigate is about to be retired and had an older version of Barak installed a decade ago. This Barak system will be removed and installed in Vikramaditya as will two AK-630 systems from the frigate. It will likely take at least a year to move the Barak and AK-630 systems from the Godavari class frigate to the Vikramaditya. Long range anti-aircraft missiles are a major part of the carrier air defenses and Barak 1 will do until Barak 8 is ready.

Ya do what ya gotta — and I guess it’s some small comfort that we’re far from the only country with a broken procurement system.

Read more:
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on July 21, 2015, 09:00:10
India's navy orders another aircraft carrier. This one is close to the size of the UK's "Queen Elizabeth" class:

India will build a 65000 ton aircraft carrier with catapult launch

The size and specifications of the Indian Navy's future aircraft carrier have been officially acknowledged. The navy has written to at least four major global shipbuilders, asking for proposals to help in designing a 65,000 tonne carrier that would be about 300 metres long.
The letter of request, issued by the Indian Navy on Wednesday, specifies the carrier should be capable of speeds greater than 30 knots (56 km per hour). However, it is silent on whether it prefers nuclear propulsion, or conventional diesel or gas turbines.
The navy's letter states the carrier will embark 30-35 fixed wing combat aircraft, and about 20 rotary wing aircraft (helicopters). It would have a catapult to launch fixed wing aircraft, which would make the carrier a "catapult launched but arrested landing", or CATOBAR vessel. For India's naval aviators, this would involve a major change from a long tradition of getting airborne from a "ski-jump" at the end of the flight deck.
While not mandating an "electromagnetic aircraft launch system" (EMALS), the navy has specifically mentioned it as an option. The United States Navy's latest carrier, the 100,000-tonne USS Gerald R Ford, which will be commissioned next year, is the world's only current carrier featuring EMALS.

 There was an agreement between the USA and India for the USA to cooperate with India on their aircraft carriers and for the USA to allow access to some carrier technology.
France's Charles de Gaulle carrier has a steam catapult launched but arrested landing system and is about 42500 tons, 261 meters long and goes at up to 27 knots
UK HMS Queen Elizabeth is 70000 tons, 280 meters long and goes up to 25 knots. It has no catapult and will use aircraft with jump jets (F35 variant)
The navy's letter has gone out to US company, Lockheed Martin; UK company, BAE Systems, French shipbuilder, DCNS, and Rosoboronexport, the Russian export umbrella agency.
The letter pertains to the vessel that is commonly referred to as the "indigenous aircraft carrier number 2", or IAC-2. Currently, Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL) is building IAC-1, a 40,000-tonne carrier named INS Vikrant, which is scheduled to be commissioned in 2018.
INS Viraat will supplement INS Vikramaditya, the 45,000-tonne carrier bought from Russia, which was formerly named the Gorshkov. Another, older carrier, INS Viraat, is expected to be retired by the end of this decade.
Experts have begun evaluating the implications of the navy's specifications. It is pointed out that asking for 25-30 fighters and 20 helicopters on a 65,000 tonne, 300-metre-long carrier would limit the size of the aircraft on the ship. If heavy fighters are to be a part of the ship's complement, it would need to be bigger; if the MiG-29K is retained, it would need a foldable nose to occupy less hangar space.
It is also pointed out that specifying a speed in excess of 30 knots eliminates certain forms of propulsion, notably an all-electric drive, which is environment friendly and economical.
Title: India launches new carrier Vikrant 2
Post by: S.M.A. on July 31, 2015, 11:28:58
More on India's new carriers, plus a picture of the launching of the INS Vikrant 2 from June. The article is on her slightly larger sister ship, the future INS Vishal, though.

Diplomat (

Revealed: Details of India's Second Indigenous Aircraft Carrier
New details emerge about India’s second indigenously built aircraft carrier.

India’s second indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC-2), the INS Vishal, the second Vikrant-class carrier, is slowly taking shape. Recently, the Indian Navy outlined the specifications of this carrier in a letter of request issued to shipbuilders worldwide. Many of the details, including the tonnage and the physical dimensions of the carrier, are in line with older expectations. For example, the Vishal will displace 65,000 tonnes—25,000 tonnes more than the first indigenous carrier, the INS Vikrant.

The Indian Navy’s Naval Design Bureau clarified other features: the carrier will travel at 30 knots, a hair above the Vikrant, and come in at a length of 300 meters, longer than the 262 meter Vikrant. The Navy’s letter of request also outlines plans for the carrier to field between 30 and 35 fixed-wing combat aircraft and 20 rotary wing aircraft. In many ways, though this carrier will be the second in the indigenous Vikrant-class, it represents a significant upgrade over the first carrier, which was bogged down in delays ahead of its successful undocking in early June 2015. The Vishal and Vikrant, along with the modified Kiev-class Vikramaditya, will form the carrier backbone of India’s Navy, and, with the decommissioning of the INS Viraat, the longest-serving aircraft carrier in the world, the total Indian Navy carrier count will stand at three.


Note the distinctly non-Russian design, courtesy of Italy's Fincatieri.

Pics courtesy of Bager1968 from the Warships1 forum. (

Title: Indian unable to fight 2-front air war against both China and Pakistan
Post by: S.M.A. on September 09, 2015, 17:36:33
India's inability to fight a two-front war against both China and Pakistan is a problem exacerbated by India's current fighter acquisition troubles:

Diplomat (

India’s Fighter Acquisition Troubles
As the Indian Air Force reduces the FGFA requirement, its fighter capacity continues to shrink.

By Daniel Darling
September 01, 2015

Confronted with shrinking combat aircraft capacity, the Indian Air Force appears willing to swap projected numbers on paper for actual fighters on hand. At least, that is the message being conveyed by IAF brass as they once again trim their fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) requirement.

Reports in the local media indicate that the IAF has reduced the scope of its outlined FGFA procurement down to just three squadrons of fighters (roughly 18 aircraft apiece), plus a handful of extra aircraft for training purposes. This would place the total requirement at around 65 Russian-built T-50 fighter jets, far less than what was envisioned back in the middle of the previous decade when the unit figure was placed at 214 aircraft. This latest reduction also represents the second time the IAF has downsized its requirement, with the first coming in October 2012 when the service announced a reduction from 214 fighters down to 144.

Once again the IAF finds itself in the midst of a major fighter procurement project that promises a lot, delivers nothing in the short term, and is subject to localized industrial work share and advanced technologies that serve to both complicate and potentially derail negotiations


The Indian government has mandated that the IAF field a 750-unit jet fighter fleet for the purpose of conducting a two-front war if necessary against neighboring rivals, China and Pakistan.

This would require 42 squadrons to be stood up and operationally ready.

Instead, the IAF is able to field 32-34 squadrons on paper, with India’s Parliamentary Consultative Committee on Defence noting this past April that due to attrition, obsolescence, poor serviceability rates, and ongoing upgrades to the combined fighter fleet, in actuality the IAF has just 25 functional fighter squadrons on hand.

As if those numbers are not stark enough for India’s defense planners, around 40 percent of the roughly 580 fighters in the IAF fleet consist of aging Soviet-legacy MiG-21s and MiG-27s slated for retirement within a decade.

Title: India buys Apaches and Chinook helos
Post by: S.M.A. on October 02, 2015, 01:17:11
Another major sale from the US to India:


India inks deal for Apache, Chinook helicopters
Boeing says India has signed a contract for the purchase of Chinook heavy-lift helicopters and Apache attack helicopters

By Richard Tomkins   |  Sept. 30, 2015 at 7:05 AM

PHILADELPHIA, Sept. 29 (UPI) -- India's Ministry of Defense has finalized a commercial direct sales order with Boeing for production, training and support of Apache and Chinook helicopters.

Under the order, India is to receive 22 AH-64E Apache attack helicopters and 15 CH-47F Chinook heavy-lift helicopters, Boeing said.

The order for the Apaches, however, did not include engines, Apache engines, weaponry and radar, which will come under a U.S. Foreign Military Sales deal, according to the Indian publication Business Standard.

Title: New Indian Navy sub ARIHANT to undergo missile tests soon
Post by: S.M.A. on October 15, 2015, 17:51:01
An update on the INS Arihant: more deterrence against Pakistan?

Diplomat (

India’s Deadliest Sub to Test-Fire Missiles
The Indian Navy’s INS Arihant will undergo missile tests this month.

By Franz-Stefan Gady
October 15, 2015

After successfully completing sea trials, the Indian Navy’s first indigenously developed ballistic missile nuclear submarine (SSBN), INS Arihant, is expected to begin missile tests this month The New Indian Express reports.

Once this month’s missile tests are successfully completed, the submarine is slated to enter service with the Indian Navy during the International Fleet Review held in the port city of Visakhapatnam in February 2016, according to an Indian defense official.

The first of two missile tests scheduled for this month will involve the Nirbhay long-range subsonic cruise missile–India’s answer to the U.S.’s Tomahawk and Pakistan’s Babur missile–and developed by the Defense Research & Development Organization (DRDO).


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on November 02, 2015, 12:32:32
The Indian navy takes delivery of a new conventional submarine. While the project has gone over time and budget, they are forging ahead to introduce this series into the fleet:

Submarine Project Scorpene sea trials today
The sea trials are likely to continue for the next 10 months until the commissioning of the submarine, which is slated for September 2016.

Kalvari, the first of , will be set afloat on Thursday at the Naval Dockyards in Mumbai. The event is significant given that it completes the building of the much-awaited platform and kickstarts the beginning of sea trials.
The sea trials are likely to continue for the next 10 months until the commissioning of the submarine, which is slated for September 2016.
Defence ministry sources said the delivery schedule of the submarine will be adhered to. Scorpenes, the Project- 75 submarines, are built by state-owned Mazagon Docks Limited (MDL) along with French DCNS. Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had in April witnessed the undocking of the vessel in a ceremony at Mumbai. Six of these submarines are to be delivered to the Navy by 2020.
While the project has been running behind schedule, the Navy is in dire need of submarines in light of recent accidents which have reduced the fleet to a handful of conventional submarines.

 - See more at:

and a bit on how this sub's AIP works:

Air-independent power[edit]
The French Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome (MESMA) system is being offered by the French shipyard DCN for the Scorpène-class submarines. It is essentially a modified version of their nuclear propulsion system with heat being generated by ethanol and oxygen. A conventional turbine power plant powered by steam generated from the combustion of ethanol and stored oxygen at a pressure of 60 atmospheres. This pressure-firing allows exhaust carbon dioxide to be expelled overboard at any depth without an exhaust compressor.
Each MESMA system costs around $50–60 million. As installed on the Scorpènes, it requires adding a new 8.3 metres (27 ft), 305 tonne hull section to the submarines, and results in a submarine able to operate for greater than 21 days under water, depending on variables such as speed.[citation needed]
Some of the submarines built for the Indian Navy will have Phosphoric acid fuel cell powered AIP modules designed by Naval Materials Research Laboratory of Indian Defence Research and Development Organisation.[8][9]
DCNS also is developing a second-generation hydrogen fuel cell AIP modules for future Scorpène models.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on November 04, 2015, 19:09:57
PAK-FA for India?

Diplomat via the Russia Insider (

Russia Close to a Massive Deal to Supply 5th Generation Fighters to India

India is close to signing on to a $35 billion deal to buy 154 Russian-made PAK FA T-50 fighters - some of which would be assembled in India
Franz-Stefan Gady Subscribe to Franz-Stefan Gady

(The Diplomat)
11 minutes ago

A collaboration contract for joint work and delivery of 154 Perspective Multirole Fighter (PMF), the derivative Indian version of the PAK FA T-50 fifth generation fighter jet, is expected to finally be signed during the Indo-Russian summit this December, The Financial Express reports.

The agreement, which already was supposed to have been signed this July, includes a fixed order of 154 aircraft, a definite work share commitment, and a detailed order of the number of single- versus double-seat PMF (aka Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft) fighter planes. According to the draft agreement, the aircraft will be built in India, but all of the components will be manufactured in Russia.


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on November 04, 2015, 22:20:38
I have to wonder about this. India has signalled displeasure with the PAK-FA itself and possible work sharing arrangements between India and Russia in the past. The Russians themselves have put the project on the back burner (the initial order for 50 was put on hold and there are only 12 in service; the various prototype and pre production craft).

If this turns out like a previous project where the Russians supplied an aircraft carrier (with a significant ballooning of price and delivery time), then the Russians are likely looking for ways to milk a lot of cash out of their frustrated client.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Humphrey Bogart on November 04, 2015, 22:31:20
I have to wonder about this. India has signalled displeasure with the PAK-FA itself and possible work sharing arrangements between India and Russia in the past. The Russians themselves have put the project on the back burner (the initial order for 50 was put on hold and there are only 12 in service; the various prototype and pre production craft).

If this turns out like a previous project where the Russians supplied an aircraft carrier (with a significant ballooning of price and delivery time), then the Russians are likely looking for ways to milk a lot of cash out of their frustrated client.

That or they are looking for a new partner to supply certain components since the falling out with the Ukrainians. 
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on November 12, 2015, 23:29:15
This is actually an answer posted in a thread in NextBigFuture. This is one of those ideas which is far too sensible to taken seriously by the powers that be:

Here's what another Bharat (his real name) says about Chinese carrier ops and why Pakistan isn't India's real threat:

“As far as I know, no combat aircraft has actually flown off a sailing carrier, a Chinese carrier,” Karnad said. To the contrary, he said, Chinese pilots are still crashing regularly when they try to land on a simulated carrier deck ashore — something much shorter than a conventional runway but still far more manageable than the rolling, pitching deck of a ship.

Nevertheless, Karnad considers China the No. 1 threat to India in the long-term. It’s not Pakistan, with which India has fought at multiple wars, declared and otherwise. Pakistan lacks the economic base to sustain a military that can threaten its much larger neighbor, he argued. India would do better reaching out to Pakistan and reopening trade along British-era rail lines and co-opting Islamabad instead of confronting it.

“We fixate on the wrong threat… looking in the wrong way at Pakistan when the real threat is China,” Karnad told the audience at Carnegie. As a result, “you really do not have the kind of capabilities to thwart and deter China from the larger design of containing India.” Karnad’s referring to China’s so-called “string of pearls,” a series of agreements and investments in countries from East Africa to Sri Lanka to Burma.

It should of course be remembered that India and China fought a war that New Delhi lost. Many Indians haven't forgotten this and see the PRC has its chief rival in Asia. Pakistan are inconsequential minnows in the long run, India's real enemy comes from its north. That's something our own Borat would do well to remember.
Title: India's first Poseidon squadron enters service
Post by: S.M.A. on November 18, 2015, 09:26:06
While rival Pakistan has to make do with their prop-driven Orions, India's first Poseidon squadron enters service:

Diplomat (

India Inducts First Squadron of Anti-Submarine Warfare Plane

India’s defense minister officially inducted eight Boeing P-8I Poseidon aircraft into the Indian Navy last week.

By Franz-Stefan Gady
November 17, 2015

On November 13, India’s Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar officially inducted the Indian Navy’s first squadron of Boeing P-8I Poseidon aircraft at Rajali Naval Air Station in southern India, about 70 kilometers off Chennai.

According to a press release from the Indian Navy, the Indian defense minister flew in on board a P-8I Poseidon aircraft prior to attending the official ceremony. “During the flight, Shri Parrikar was given an exposure to various sensors and other sophisticated state-of-the-art equipment and their capabilities,” the press statement reads.

In his remarks, Parrikar pointed out that even during the extensive trial and testing phases the P-8I aircraft had “achieved a number of operational milestones” including “participation in the search effort for Malaysian Airlines Flight MH 370, the first successful firing of air launched Harpoon Block II missile in the world, torpedo firing, and active participation in major naval exercises.”

The new unit — designated Indian Naval Air Squadron 312-A — will be permanently based at Rajali Naval Air Station.


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on December 04, 2015, 16:29:02
More subs for India:

Defense News (

India May Order Additional Scorpenes
By Vivek Raghuvanshi 12:25 p.m. EST December 3, 2015

NEW DELHI — The Indian Navy is considering buying additional Scorpene submarines to top an earlier six-vessel order, Indian Navy Chief Adm. Robin Dhowan said at an annual news conference here Thursday.

Though he did not give any details on the number of additional French-made Scorpene diesel-electric attack submarines being considered, a senior Indian Navy official said, there is a requirement for three additional Scorpenes. A formal note to request the additional submarines has not been submitted to the Ministry of Defence.

The Navy's Scorpene project itself is behind schedule by more than four years.

Under the 2005 deal, the first submarine was to have been inducted in 2012 but now has been delayed until December 2016. Earlier, the Indian government had threatened to impose penalties if the submarines were not inducted on a schedule, with the first one to be inducted in August 2015 and the remaining five every six months following.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on December 08, 2015, 17:00:35
Why "negotiating" on climate change is pointless:

India Decries the West’s “Carbon Imperialism”

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry labeled India the biggest “challenge” in the way of negotiators trying to hammer out a Global Climate Treaty (GCT) in Paris, and predictably his comments didn’t go over well in the south Asian nation. The Telegraph reports:
…Mr Kerry’s “challenge” comment was received with fury in New Delhi. Officials here are quick to point out that it still burns less coal than the US or China – and besides, the West has been profiting from pumping out carbon for decades.

“Kerry’s comment is unwarranted and unfair. The attitude of some of the developed countries is the challenge for the Paris conclusion,” said Prakash Javadekar, India’s environment minister. India is “not in the habit of taking any pressure from anybody”, he added.

“This smacks of a ‘carbon imperialism’,” wrote Arvind Subramanian, the Indian government’s chief economic advisor. “And such imperialism on the part of advanced nations could spell disaster for India and other developing countries.”

Both sides have a point here, and that fact alone illustrates why this quest for a GCT borders on the quixotic. India is the world’s most populous country, and its 1.3 billion people won’t be keen on seeing development delayed for less tangible progress on mitigating climate change. For a country which has already struggled with massive blackouts, cheap and available energy is the name of the game, and that presents a problem for Paris delegates, because coal is as dirty and high-emitting as it inexpensive.

But from New Delhi’s perspective, there’s a deep undercurrent of hypocrisy beneath the lofty rhetoric coming out of the conference in France. After all, the developed world is responsible for the lion’s share of greenhouse gas emissions to date, a product of 20th century industrialization. For the world’s poorer countries, it’s hard to countenance the fact that they’re being told that that similar development path is no longer available.

India hasn’t shied away from insisting on its right to grow this year, staking out a clear position ahead of the ongoing Paris summit. The West hoped to buy off the developing world with the creation of a Global Climate Fund at the failed 2009 Copenhagen climate summit, but so far hasn’t followed up on its commitments to actually put up the agreed upon annual $100 billion.

Without monetary assurances, there’s no hope in convincing developing countries to curtail growth for the greater good, and going by the American example the money doesn’t seem to be in the offing. That’s what negotiators are tackling right now in Paris, and that’s why they won’t produce a robust deal.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on December 22, 2015, 15:12:12
More on the air and naval front:

Navy Recognition (

Fincantieri to Collaborate with Indian Shipyards MDL and GRSE on P-17A Stealth Frigate Project
Fincantieri has signed a contract with Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL), one of the most important Indian shipyards, controlled by the Ministry of Defence and specialized in the building of naval and offshore units, to provide technical advice within the Project 17A. This project envisages the construction of 7 stealth frigates ordered this year in February by the Indian Navy to the two shipyards MDL and Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers (GRSE). This important agreement allows the group to establish a long-term cooperation with the two shipyards and to consolidate its commercial presence in the country.


Saab trying to lure India away from Dassault:

Times of India (

IAF modernisation plan: Saab offers Gripen fighter jets under 'Make in India' with full control
By PTI | 20 Dec, 2015, 12.19PM IST

NEW DELHI: Swedish defence major Saab has offered to manufacture its fifth generation Gripen fighter aircraft here with technology transfer to India, in a renewed bid for a pie in the multi-billion dollar worth IAF modernisation plan.

Saab, which had lost out in the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft tender in 2011 which was won by French firm Dassault Aviation, anticipates that the Indian Air Force (IAF) will need more the 36 Rafale fighter jets that India is buying from France to be ..


Title: Indian Poseidons to hunt Chinese subs near Andaman Islands
Post by: S.M.A. on January 20, 2016, 04:00:41
Poseidons on the prowl:

Diplomat (

Indian Ocean: India Deploys New Sub-Killer Planes to Counter Chinese Subs

Two Poseidon 8I aircraft have recently been dispatched to the strategically-located Andaman and Nicobar archipelago.

By Franz-Stefan Gady
January 19, 2016

India has deployed two of its most advanced maritime patrol/anti-submarine warfare aircraft, the Poseidon 8I, at a military base in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, located in the Indian Ocean, The Times of India reports.

The deployment comes as a response to repeated forays of Chinese conventional and nuclear submarines into the Indian Ocean, according to Indian defense officials who spoke to The Times of India on the condition of anonymity.

The two aircraft are just about to complete their two week deployment at India’s farthest military outpost, 1,200 kilometers (745 miles) away from the Indian mainland.

In addition, the India has also deployed drones at the island. “Navy and IAF [Indian Air Force] are also deploying their (Israeli) Searcher-II unmanned aerial vehicles to the islands on a temporary basis,” the defense official said.

Title: Indian Navy to evaluate Rafale
Post by: S.M.A. on January 20, 2016, 04:07:40
Rafales for India's carriers?

Defense News (

India To Evaluate Rafale for Navy
By Vivek Raghuvanshi 3:34 p.m. EST January 19, 2016

NEW DELHI — In an expected move, the Indian government has directed the Navy to undertake detailed briefings with Dassault Aviation regarding the  Rafale aircraft.

An Indian Defence Ministry source said the government wants commonalities between logistics and spares for fighters with the Navy and Air Force.

A detailed briefing on Rafale for the Indian Navy is planned here for Jan. 29, he said, but declined to comment if India will buy Rafales for the Navy as well.

A Navy official said the service needs 54 fighter aircraft but refused to say if Rafale has been shortlisted.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on January 27, 2016, 13:59:48
And on again off again with the FPGA project. Now that I've seen the articel uptiread of the Indian Navy looking at Rafale, this is starting to look like some sort of negotiating ploy by India to play France and Russia off and get a better deal on new fighters.

Russia and India cut price of the FPGA fighter which clears the way for India to eventually get 250 fifth generation stealth fighters
The Indian Air Force (IAF), once an ardent backer of the proposed Indo-Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), has for the last two years sharply attacked the project. Critics say the FGFA is on the back burner to clear the way for the French Rafale fighter.
President Francois Hollande of France, who arrives in Delhi on Monday, has talked up the sale of 36 Rafales to India for an estimated $9 billion (Rs 60,000 crore).
Yet the FGFA remains alive. Last month Indian and Russian negotiators achieved a major breakthrough, agreeing to develop the FGFA at a lowered cost of $4 billion (Rs 27,000 crore) in India. That would open the doors to building of 250 FGFAs to replace the Sukhoi-30MKI.
Sukhoi is already test-flying the FGFA's precursor, which Russia calls the PAK-FA. The FGFA project involves improving the PAK-FA significantly to meet the IAF's specifications. The IAF wants some 50 improvements to the PAK-FA, including a 360-degree radar and more powerful engines.
A prototype fighter flying in India within three years. In total, 11 prototypes would be built - eight of these PAK-FAs for the Russian Air Force, and three FGFAs for India.
IAF objections to the FGFA were:
(a) The Russians would not share critical design information with India;
(b) The PAK-FA's engines are inadequate, being mere upgrades of the Sukhoi-30MKI's engines; and
(c) Paying $6 billion to co-develop the FGFA would mean that "a large percentage of IAF's capital budget will be locked up."
Title: "Made in India" Hornet jet deal offered by Boeing
Post by: S.M.A. on February 03, 2016, 11:59:59
Boeing's counteroffer to the Gripens and Rafales being peddled by Saab and Dassault, respectively:

Air Recognition (

Boeing offers to produce F/A-18 fighter jets under "Make in India" program
The US-based aircraft manufacturer Boeing has offered to manufacture its F/A-18 fighter jets — the mainstay of the US navy — in India through the government's Make in India programme, taking another stab at winning a potential multi-billion contract from one of the world's biggest military spenders.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on February 21, 2016, 20:33:01
India deploying a squadron of P-8i's to conduct anti submarine surveillance in the southern Indian Ocean. It is interesting that a nation like India can act quickly to acquire and deploy such systems when we have so much trouble getting routine items like boots and transport trucks to the troops. Perhaps a lesson to take aboard with our own military and political leadership:

India deploying eight P-8I submarine detecting aircraft to counter dozens of Chinese submarines

As China continues to deploy new missile systems that can target any part of the United States with nuclear weapons, and submarines that can target any part of the trade routes from China, through the South China Sea, and into the Indian Ocean, India is preparing to defend its Andaman and Nicobar Islands in the Bay of Bengal.

India has detected Chinese naval ships coming close to the territorial waters of the Andaman and Nicobar Islands. The Chinese ships attempt to get close at least twice every three months. India is concerned that the islands are mostly undefended, and a lightning attack by the Chinese would be successful.

In response, India is deploying eight P-8I aircraft, obtained from Boeing under a 2009 deal with the United States. The aircraft will be stationed at the southern tip of mainland India in Tamil Nadu. They will serve as reconnaissance aircraft, and also will be equipped with missiles capable of neutralizing enemy submarines and warships.

India is building a satellite tracking and imaging center in southern Vietnam. Although it's billed as a civilian facility for agricultural, scientific and environmental applications, the improved imaging technology means the pictures could also be used for military purposes for both countries.

And a coment on the same site from a poster calling himself Goat Guy:

Sovereignty … not just another 11 letter word. Clausewitz (as well as Sun Tzu) both argued that central to the idea of a republic is that it asserts its sovereign interests and defends them.

So central in fact, that Clausewitz defined a failed state as one that either chose not to surveil and defend its interests, or that could not.

INDIA is doing exactly what it needs to do. Take seriously the sovereign threat which wayfaring Chinese submarines represent to her holdings and borders. Clearly the Chinese, with a gazillion dollars of real money, with a military which hasn't “seen action” for a long time, and which really needs to have a reason-to-exist, clearly China is becoming a bit more adventurist. Nicobar and Andaman look juicy.

I suppose with enough force-and-counterforce, this could remain 'in standoff' indefinitely.

Let us hope so.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: FJAG on February 21, 2016, 21:19:58
. . .  It is interesting that a nation like India can act quickly to acquire and deploy such systems when we have so much trouble getting routine items like boots and transport trucks to the troops. Perhaps a lesson to take aboard with our own military and political leadership . . .

Maybe this has something to do with it. (

Long history of wheels being greased.

Title: Russia to offer Project 23000E CV as India's fourth aircraft carrier
Post by: S.M.A. on March 02, 2016, 01:47:48
Pics at the link below: Russia trying to water India's appetite for further naval expansion?

Alert 5 (

Russia to offer Project 23000E for India’s fourth aircraft carrier

Russia’s Izvestia newspaper says Krylovsky State Research Center (KRSC) will be offering its Project 23000E aircraft carrier design to India. New Delhi is preparing to start construction for its second indigenous carrier.

The Shtorm-class carrier has a displacement between 90,000 – 100,000 tons and there is a ski jump plus two catapults.

Russia believes the Shtorm is a frontrunner as Moscow is willing to allow more technology transfer compared to France and United States.
Title: India retires Sea Harrier fleet
Post by: S.M.A. on March 21, 2016, 15:41:12
More spare parts for the Harrier fleets of the USMC, Spanish and Italian Navies?

Defense News (

Indian Navy Retires Sea Harriers
Vivek Raghuvanshi, Defense News 11:20 a.m. EDT March 21, 2016

NEW DELHI — The Indian Navy has retired the Sea Harrier fleet that operated from its aircraft carrier INS Viraat, and plans to replace them with MiG- 29Ks that India has bought from Russia.

The Indian Navy bought 30 British-made Sea Harriers in 1983 but only 11 now remain. The Navy once considered upgrading  the Sea Harriers but abandoned the plan.

The Sea Harrier pilots are now being trained to fly the Russian MiG 29K fighter aircraft. India had planned to replace the Sea Harriers with the homemade Light Combat Aircraft (Naval) version but the program is more than 15 years behind schedule, said an Indian Navy official.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on April 01, 2016, 13:15:52
An Indian shipyard wades into the Southeast Asian shipbuilding market:

Philippine Star (

Indian firm offers lowest bid for P16-B Navy frigates project
By Alexis Romero ( | Updated April 1, 2016 - 11:16am

MANILA, Philippines — An Indian company has offered the lowest bid for the purchase of two frigates for the Philippine Navy, one of the biggest projects in the military's modernization program.

Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers Ltd., a state-run firm, has been declared the lowest bidder for the multi-billion peso frigate acquisition project, Defense Undersecretary Fernando Manalo told The STAR in a recent interview.

Garden Reach offered to supply the ships for P15.047 billion, about P950 million lower than the P16 billion approved budget for the project.

Title: India launches homegrown space shuttle
Post by: S.M.A. on May 23, 2016, 23:57:48
A Russian Buran or US X-37 copy?

Yahoo News (

India Successfully Launches Its First Mini Space Shuttle
[Yahoo News]

May 23, 2016

India has launched its very first homegrown space shuttle, the latest bid to produce a reusable spacecraft.

Launched by the the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO), the unmanned 7m scale model was designed to gather data on hypersonic flight and autonomous landing in preparation for a full size version due for construction within a decade.

Since NASA mothballed its space shuttle in 2011, several space agencies as well as private space companies such as Elon Musk’s SpaceX, have been working on new form of reusable spacecraft.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: tomahawk6 on June 05, 2016, 19:43:47
Relations between the US and India are gradually thawing.Indian support vs China would be welcome,but India is being cautious.If the US threw Pakistan under the bus military relations might improve.

NEW DELHI — In a recent speech in New Delhi, the outspoken commander of the U.S. Pacific Command, Adm. Harry B. Harris, Jr., was nearly poetic when he discussed the growing relationship between India and the United States, saying he was a “bit moonstruck” about the possibilities.
“In the not too distant future, American and Indian Navy vessels steaming together will become a common and welcome sight throughout Indo-Asia-Pacific waters,” he said, “as we work together to maintain freedom of the seas for all nations.”
The comments struck a chord — though, perhaps, not the note Harris wanted. Just a few days later, India’s defense minister, Manohar Parrikar, publicly rebuked him, saying India does not participate in joint patrols.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on June 19, 2016, 14:15:35
While nominally about laser guidance kits for the 70mm Hydra rocket, the interesting part is how India is gradually opening up to free market competition, and especially in the long term effect of dismantling the bloated Ordnance Factory Board (with 200,000 employees, it is more than 3 times the size of our regular force establishment!).

Air Weapons: The Smaller And Cheaper Alternative

June 17, 2016:

India is, for the first time, allowing private firms to build military weapons. This breaks the monopoly of the state owned Ordnance Factory Board facilities which, because of politics and that fact that the Board employs nearly 200,000 people, has long been protected from commercial competition. That protection was worn down by the growing complaints from users and voters about poor quality products. This is the result of corruption and lack of competition, something that became more obvious since the 1990s when India began allowing more commercial competition for state owned firms.

One of the first weapons private firms can bid on are an Air Force request for 200,000 70mm guided rockets to be used on helicopters. Since no civilian firm has all the tech needed to produce these precision weapons it is understood that those who bid will have to obtain the needed technology from foreign firms. That should not be difficult because there are a number of foreign firms already producing such weapons and none of the tech involved is considered so valuable that it cannot be exported.

Since the late 1990s a growing number of smaller and cheaper air-launched laser guided weapons began to show up. By 2010 several different companies had developed laser guided versions of the World War II era 70mm air-to-ground rocket. Developing a guided 70mm rocket took longer than expected because the manufacturers underestimated the technical difficulties of getting the laser seeker and flight control mechanisms into that small a package, at a weight and price the customer could afford. The price of the new 70mm missile is now about $30,000 each. This is attractive to India because it is about a third less than a smart bomb and less than a third of what a Hellfire missile (longer used by American helicopters and UAVs) costs.

There are now several combat tested 70mm laser guided missiles out there. The U.S. Marine Corps have been using the APKWS II (Advanced Precision Kill Weapons System) 70mm guided rockets on their AH-1Z helicopter gunships since 2010 as has SOCOM (Special Operations Command) on its slow moving AC-130 gunships. The marines were so pleased with it that they bought APKWS II kits to convert some of their 100,000 70mm unguided rockets to laser guided ones. All this began when the marines bought fifty APKWS II missiles for testing and that proved successful. There followed the first sale for 70mm guided rockets after more than a decade of trying to get anyone to buy more than a few evaluation missiles or upgrade kits. After marine AH-1s had fired several hundred APKWS II in Afghanistan and none of them missed the U.S. Department of Defense supported modifications so APKWS could be used on fast movers (jet aircraft).

The guided 70mm rocket is used against targets that don't require a larger (49 kg/108 pound), and more expensive (over $100,000), Hellfire missile but still needs some targeting precision. In tests the APKWS hit within a meter (a few feet) of the aiming point, about what Hellfire and similar missiles are capable of. The 70mm missile makes an excellent weapon for UAVs, especially since you can carry more of them. The launcher for carrying these missiles is designed to replace the one for Hellfire but can carry four missiles instead of one. APKWS can also be used from a modified Hydra launcher (that carries seven missiles) which was long used for the unguided 70mm rockets.

All these 70mm guided rockets are basically 13.6 kg (30 pound) 70mm rockets, with a laser seeker, a 2.7 kg (six pound) warhead, and a range of five kilometers from helicopters or 11 kilometers from fixed wing aircraft. Laser designators on a helicopter, aircraft, or with troops on the ground, are pointed at the target and the laser seeker in the front of the 70mm missile homes in on the reflected laser light.

The 2.75 inch (70mm) rockets were developed during World War II, as an air-to-air weapon for use against heavy bomber formations. The Germans had developed a similar and very successful weapon (the R4M). Before long it was noted that neither the Japanese nor the Germans had any heavy bombers, so the U.S. 70mm rocket was switched to air-to-ground use. Actually, the 70mm rocket was retained for air-to-air use into the 1950s, but it was never successful in that role. The 70mm rocket became very popular in the 1960s, when it was discovered that the weapon worked very well when launched from multiple (7 or 19 tube) launchers mounted on helicopters. The 108-138m cm (42-55 inch) long rockets could be fired singly or in salvoes and gave helicopter pilots some airborne artillery for supporting troops on the ground. There are many variations in terms of warheads and rocket motors. Some versions can go over ten kilometers.

For a long time orders for 70mm guided missiles were not forthcoming because the Hellfire was doing the job and there just wasn't a big demand for a smaller missile. Several smaller missiles have been developed and some of the, like the Griffin, has been used over Pakistan and Afghanistan on American UAVs. The marines, and now the navy and air force, believe that a mini-Hellfire, in the form of their APKWS II, has a role on the battlefield and plan to keep using it in combat. The APKWS is a lot cheaper than Hellfire or Griffin and for some situations is seen as a better choice. Things like that convinced India and a growing number of other nations to go for the smaller and cheaper alternative.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: S.M.A. on July 04, 2016, 20:18:36
Another Indian defense program finally comes to fruition after past delays: (anyone remember the ex-Russian carrier Admiral Gorshkov/Vikramaditya saga?)

Defense News (

Indian Air Force Inducts Indigenous Tejas Aircraft
Vivek Raghuvanshi, Defense News 12:56 p.m. EDT July 1, 2016

NEW DELHI — After about 30 years of waiting, the Indian Air Force (IAF) on Friday revived its decommissioned MiG-21 Bis aircraft of the Flying Daggers squadron and inducted two homemade Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) plus one trainer aircraft built by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bangalore.

The Flying Daggers squadron will achieve its full strength of 20 aircraft including four trainers in the next two years, according to a senior IAF official.

Tajas aircraft will replace the MiG-21 Bis aircraft, he said.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on July 11, 2016, 17:18:33
Four recent posts:

Dam Pakistan: India’s Growing Great Afghan Game

Indian PM Modi in Washington–Goes for Defence Cooperation

“Absurd”: Continuing India/France Rafale Fighter Buy Balls-Up, Part 2 (plus Gripen)

Bloody Weekend in Indian Kashmir (Canadian media ignore)

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Chris Pook on July 12, 2016, 01:21:10
UK starts post-Brexit trade talks with India
8 July 2016

Sajid Javid visiting India in wake of the Brexit vote.

Title: Russia offers Shtorm class CVN to India
Post by: S.M.A. on July 12, 2016, 13:43:33
More on the Shtorm class CV design at the Russian Military thread (Merged)- Navy (,71868.msg1408758.html#msg1408758).

Defense News (

Russia Offers India Nuclear Aircraft Carrier
Vivek Raghuvanshi, Defense News 8:48 a.m. EDT July 11, 2016

NEW DELHI — Russia has offered its nuclear aircraft carrier, dubbed "Storm," to India for purchase, a senior Indian Navy official said. The offer comes as India and the US discuss the transfer of technology for India's future nuclear aircraft carrier, the INS Vishal.

A diplomat with the Russian Embassy confirmed that a Russian team visiting India last week made the offer.

Krylov State Research Center (KSRC), a Russian shipbuilding research and development institute, is designing the carrier, also known as Shtorm or Project 23000E.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: George Wallace on July 12, 2016, 14:08:27
Anyone get a feeling that an ecological disaster is being transferred from one location to another?
Title: India offered advanced Block 70/72 F16 jets in exclusive deal
Post by: S.M.A. on July 15, 2016, 17:57:04
Lockmart sweetening the pot in a last-ditch deal to steal Dassault's customer?

Hindu Business Line (

In exclusive deal, India to get ‘most advanced’ F-16 fighter jets by 2019-20
Nayanima Basu

Marillyn Hewson Chairman, President and CEO of Lockheed Martin

Lockheed Martin is currently scouting for land to set up its manufacturing unit. According to sources, it is looking to set up the plant in a State that will have a runway near a port.
New Delhi, July 11: 

US defence major Lockheed Martin has firmed up its plans to produce the latest version of its iconic F-16 fighter jets only in India under the ‘Make in India’ programme.

The multi-billion dollar deal was “finalised” during the recent visit of Lockheed Martin’s Chairman, President and CEO Marillyn Hewson here last week, a top official, involved in the talks, told BusinessLine.
‘Exclusively’ in India

Under the deal, the company will be manufacturing the latest version of the jets – F-16 Block 70/72 – that will be produced “exclusively” in India.

This will be the “most advanced” version and will not be built anywhere else in the world. Lockheed Martin also plans to export them from the India plant at a later stage, the official said. The F-16 project is a government-to-government deal that will be conducted through the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) route.


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on July 15, 2016, 21:34:15
Too bad they are not offering the F-16XL. That version offered increased fuel capacity by 82%. The F-16XL could carry twice the ordnance of the F-16 and deliver it 40% farther. The enlarged wing allowed a total of 27 hard points.

The extended range and additional ordinance would provide a lot of flexibility of the Indian Air Force (deep strike missions into Pakistan or long patrols over the ocean with anti ship missiles), without a lot of extensive R&D either.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on July 20, 2016, 16:20:35
Meanwhile on the Chinese front near Kashmir (note also M777 howitzer buy):

The Himalayan Military Cockpit, Indian Tanks to Ladakh Near China Section

Title: India orders 4 more P8I Poseidons
Post by: S.M.A. on July 28, 2016, 00:52:14
More Poseidons for India:

Defense News (

India Awards $1 Billion Contract to Boeing for Four P-8I Aircraft
Vivek Raghuvanshi, Defense News 8:46 p.m. EDT July 27, 2016

NEW DELHI — Coinciding with a visit by Pentagon acquisition chief Frank Kendall, India today awarded Boeing a $1 billion contract for the purchase of four more P-8I maritime surveillance aircraft to be flown by the country's navy pilots.

The contract for the planes sets deliveries to be completed within the next three years, according to a senior ministry of defense official who requested not to be named.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 08, 2016, 12:29:40
More on LockMart offer to build F-16V in India:

Future F-16s Built in India, Including for Export?

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: tomahawk6 on August 12, 2016, 13:29:32
With production lines slated to close this sort of outsourcing is thinking outside the box.There are certainly risks but its probably worth the gamble that India remains friendly to the West.

The US Air Force and those of other NATO countries are phasing out F-16s much sooner than anticipated. This implies that performance of F-35s has met expectations, and that there are no obvious show-stoppers to ramping up production as fast as budgets allow. The F-15, F-16, and F/A-18 production lines are all slated to close by 2020. But there is more to this deal, as it has the potential to alter the balance of power in South and Southeast Asia over the next decade.

Lockheed-Martin’s “Made in India” deal, which offers exclusive rights to manufacture and produce ‘Block 70/72’ F-16s, implies that few—if any—orders are expected from NATO countries. India will have a veto on sales to sensitive countries like Pakistan and Taiwan. This deal is being “finalized”, though no deal with India is a done deal until cash arrives on the barrelhead. But suppose it moves forward, and Indian F-16s are produced in quantity starting in 2019 or 2020. Depending on the technologies transferred or made accessible by India, there is considerable scope to update and upgrade the F-16 to achieve a degree of equivalence to stealth-by-other-means, so as to be competitive with state-of-the-art and relatively stealthy Russian and Chinese fighters. Those upgrades will likely find a ready market with the world’s F-16 operators.
Title: India eyes F18IN (home-built Super Hornet)
Post by: S.M.A. on August 15, 2016, 13:36:47
So much for Lockheed's aforementioned plans to get a deal to build F16s in India if the Indian MoD is eyeing an Indian-made Super Hornet instead:

Defence Update (

Bye Bye Rafale, Ministry plans to buy F 18 IN

Source’s close to Defense ministry confirms that India plans to produce the American F 18 in India with TATA as the indigenous supplier. The proposed sale will be discussed and to be drafted in the upcoming visit of US DOD Chief to India. US major Lockheed proposed the F 16 IN to India, due to the single engine and the Lockheed’s relationship with Pakistan forced the IAF keep out  Lockheed’s offer.

On the other side Boeing has made good relationship with India, recent signatures of AH 64 and CH 47, and Boeing’s MoU with TATA also good example for that. F 18 IN is the advanced variant of F 18 E/F version, IN version has larger Indian sub components, also allows to carry Indian and Israeli made weapons.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 17, 2016, 13:24:38
PM Modi weighs in, unusually, on Pak Baluchistan:

Indian PM Modi Pours (RAW) Fat on Pakistan’s Baluchistan Fire

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 17, 2016, 14:20:50
More at the very useful The Diplomat (very good on Asia):

India-Pakistan Relations: A Paradigm Shift
Remarks by Modi and Sharif at their independence day celebrations signal the end of attempts at reconciliation.

Bold words marked the 70th anniversaries of independence for both India and Pakistan. Nawaz Sharif, prime minister of Pakistan, dedicated the day to the freedom of Indian-occupied-Kashmir, which is currently undergoing significant civilian unrest following the killing of separatist military commander Burhan Wani. “I dedicate this year’s 14 August to the freedom of Kashmir. I dedicate it to those people of Kashmir, who bravely faced the state oppression but kept the spirit of freedom alive,” Sharif was quoted as saying.

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi fired back at Pakistan in his annual Independence Day address, accusing Pakistan of fanning unrest and glorifying terrorism. “They glorify terrorists who attack us,” he said, reminding the world that India “cried with sorrow” over the death of 130 children who were killed two years ago during the Peshawar massacre.

However, what appeared to be a typical occurrence — a exchange of barbed words between the two countries — quickly revealed a shift in normalcy in the relations between the two neighboring countries. Modi’s once friendly and reconciliatory policy with Pakistan has been dropped completely; there will be no more surprise visits from Modi to Pakistan any time soon, nor will there be any more calls between the premiers to celebrate Eid or other religious holidays.

What’s more, it seems India has a new strategy altogether. In his speech, Modi acknowledged the thanks of the people of Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, Gilgit, and Balochistan, explicitly drawing attention to their troubles within Pakistan. By choosing to highlight human rights abuses and the independence movement, particularly in Balochistan, Modi is signaling a new, more aggressive Indian foreign policy toward Pakistan. If Pakistan continues to raise the issue of human rights violations in India-occupied Kashmir then India will do just the same in Pakistan’s most sensitive province.

Pakistan has long accused India of fueling terrorism in Balochistan, its largest province, and of supporting its independence movement [via RAW ] ...

Mark Collins
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 30, 2016, 16:48:32
Note terrorism and Afghan angles at 2)--Paks will not be best pleased:

Eagle’s India Full Court Press (unhappy Paks)

And the US will be disappointed if they think India will turn into some sort of real partner, however much bribed with defence equipment; tous azimuts, save Pakistan and China, remains the Indian posture.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 30, 2016, 20:56:20
Let's see how this works out in the real, Indian, world; Americans are ever-prone to over-enthusiasm:

India and U.S. deepen defense ties with landmark agreement

Meanwhile this, openly encouraged by US, will worry Paks muchly:

Afghanistan army chief in India
Indian Army in a statement said his visit comes against the backdrop of enhanced military and defence cooperation between the two countries

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: just me... on August 31, 2016, 05:36:19
Note terrorism and Afghan angles at 2)--Paks will not be best pleased:

And the US will be disappointed if they think India will turn into some sort of real partner, however much bribed with defence equipment;


Disappointed in a number of ways for sure and the bribing will have to go a lot further than just defence equipment!

Funny and a touch off topic, but they (the Indians) were rolling out all the red carpets and vice regal salutes for John Kerry's visit here yesterday.  A 15 minute trip from the airport to his hotel took over an hour with Kerry actually being stuck in traffic.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on September 20, 2016, 16:31:28
En nuke fin? Rafales for India (further links at orignal, via Indian Express)?

Asia Pacific

Dassault Rafale fighters purchased by the Indian government are believed to operate as the platform to take over the nuclear strike role external link from the Indian Air Force’s current fleet of Mirage 2000 fighters. It’s expected that a long awaited Inter-Government Agreement for the purchase of 36 of the French fighter will be announced over the next few days after New Delhi dropped its initial plan to procure 126 Rafales. While there is a follow up clause for an additional 12 Rafales, the IAF’s capability gap will be filled by either the indigenous Tejas fighters, or another foreign fighter such as the Gripen or F-16 [plus Super Hornet], both of which have been offered in conjunction with the “Make in India” initiative…

Super Hornet:


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on September 21, 2016, 12:43:06
Back to Kashmir:

The Asian Military Cockpit, Kashmir Section

Further to this July post,

"Bloody Weekend in Indian Kashmir (Canadian media ignore)"

things could get very hairy in a most dangerous part of the (nuclear-armed) world:

"The Indian Army Just Suffered Its Biggest Attack in a Decade as Tensions Rise with Pakistan
Sunday’s [Sept. 18] terrorist attack that killed 17 New Delhi troops occurred alongside a new Kashmir crackdown that has killed 85 so far.

Yet again, India is wounded. And furious..."

Things getting quite dicey.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: just me... on September 23, 2016, 01:14:48
Back to Kashmir:

Things getting quite dicey.


To say the least.  I'm posted here in India right now and the sabre rattling is ramping up quite quickly here.  Things are going on up there daily that we are watching very closely
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on September 26, 2016, 16:45:14
Rafale sale to India finally goes through--note nuke angle, lots of tech details (further links at original):

France Sells 36 Rafale Fighters To India Amid Regional Tension

The contract between France and India for the sale of 36 Dassault Rafale fighters is welcomed by French officials as a diplomatic coup, but it also looms large as part of the arms race between India and some of its neighbors—namely Pakistan and China.

That positioning could fuel further success, as Dassault has reason to hope for a follow-on deal for more Rafales. Indian engineers integrating nuclear weapons on the Rafale cannot be ruled out.

But just as Dassault sees further opportunity in the remaining 90 aircraft, so do its competitors. Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Saab have all pitched fighters to New Delhi, offering to make their products in-country [emphasis added]...

The India agreement was signed in New Delhi by French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian and his Indian counterpart, Manohar Parrikar. In addition to the combat aircraft and accompanying missiles, some of the €7.75 billion ($8.6 billion) is earmarked for maintenance and training. The first Rafale is scheduled to be delivered late in 2019, with the remaining 35 aircraft to follow over a 60-month time frame, an Indian defense ministry official says. Twenty-eight will be single-seat aircraft; eight will be two-seat versions.

The aircraft’s weapon configuration will feature the air-to-air, beyond-visual-range Meteor missile, which is reported to be a prerequisite for the deal. The Rafales will also carry the Scalp cruise missile, Mica air-to-air missile and AASM precision-guided munition. The AM39 Exocet could be added.

The Rafale’s nuclear capability is officially excluded, as international treaties ban such exports. The airframer is supposed to remove any equipment that could help enable a nuclear mission. However, an official familiar with the Indian air force’s nuclear carriers, notes that India has modified its Dassault Mirage 2000s for this purpose. “The Mirage 2000 is the Indian air force’s main nuclear carrier,” the official says. “It took them a lot of time and money, and they had to solve problems caused by unsuited specifications, but they did it.”..


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on October 11, 2016, 12:28:52
Super Hornet out for building in India (is Saab going to offer Gripen E for RCAF?):

Now India Wants to Build Foreign Single-Engine Fighter (Gripen? F-16?)

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: CBH99 on October 11, 2016, 17:38:48
I don't mean to derail the thread at all - just a quick question about the Rafale.

What makes a fighter "nuclear capable" compared to a fighter that isn't?

For example, if an F-15E and a Rafale are flying at the same speed & the same altitude, what makes one capable of delivering a nuclear munition & the other not?
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on October 11, 2016, 18:12:11

What makes a fighter "nuclear capable" compared to a fighter that isn't?

It's not the aircraft itself, rather the special equipment that must be installed to ensure safe carriage and arming of the weapon(s), esp. no unauthorized use.

"Dr. Strangelove" 0.45:


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on December 26, 2016, 13:46:21
Further to these 2015 posts,

Indo-Pak Nuke Missile Race

Indo-Pak Nuke Missile Race, Warheads Section

let's also consider China:

India Tests Agni-V Ballistic Missile

India today [Dec. 26] conducted successful test of the nuclear-capable long-range surface to surface ballistic missile, Agni-V.

The missile is indigenously designed and developed by state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation.

"The test – the fourth in a row – was a complete success," a senior DRDO scientist said. "Three more tests are planned before the missile is inducted in the defense forces... The full range test-flight of the missile has further boosted the indigenous missile capabilities and deterrence level of the country."..

"Agni-V will be the last link in the chain of land-based deterrence vis a vis China as at present India cannot pose a viable threat to major Chinese counter value targets such as large cities," said Rahul Bhonsle, a defense analyst and retired Indian Army brigadier and defense analyst. "This will certainly place the country at par with the Chinese as well as other major missile powers such as the United States and Russia to some extent. Thus India enters the exclusive intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) club."

 "India had strategically delayed the testing of 5000 kilometres range Agni-V for one year to ensure a seat in the Missile Control Technology Regime (MTCR) which it got in July this year," said a senior MoD official who requested anonymity.

The fourth test of Agni-V missile was first scheduled for December 2015 which was postponed to January 2016 and then to March 2016 and then rescheduled because of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to US in June this year.

...The surface-to-surface Agni-V missile is seven meters long and can carry a nuclear warhead of more than one ton.

A DRDO scientist further noted that there is also a proposal to develop Agni-VI missile with a range of over 10,000 kilometers, but the status of the project is not known.

India has already inducted the homemade nuclear capable Agni-I with a range of 700 kilometers, Agni-II with a range of 2000 kilometers,3000 kilometers range Agni-III missile The 4000 kilometers range Agni-IV missile is in user trial stage.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on December 27, 2016, 14:17:45
Spending spree abroad, hoping for domestic spin-offs--sound familiar?

A shopping cart full of foreign guns and fighter jets

Despite the impetus to ‘Make in India’, the country continues to be dependent on imports to modernise its military as big-ticket deals show

Though the Union government has been pushing the “Make in India” programme and bringing in new guidelines to simplify defence procurements and promote domestic manufacturing, the country continued to be dependent on imports to modernise its military. Several big-ticket deals this year have shown that the nation will continue to depend on imports for major platforms, and government-to-government deals with foreign companies have emerged as the preferred route.

A major change on the fiscal side this year is that the Defence Ministry will utilise its full budgetary allocation for capital procurements. “The Finance Ministry has not asked for any money to be returned,” officials said. This will definitely cheer the Ministry as it has to make initial payments for the deals recently signed.

In September, the government signed the Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) with France for 36 Rafale fighter jets at a cost of €7.87 billion. In doing so, the government has brought closure of the original Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft contest that which began in 2007 for 126 jets, under which Rafale was originally shortlisted.

Decks are now cleared for adopting the same method in a new avatar to select a fighter jet to be built indigenously with significant technology transfer [F-16V? Gripen E? Super(ish) Super Hornet?].

In October, India and Russia concluded IGAs for five S-400 Triumf air defence systems and four stealth frigates and signed a stakeholder agreement for Kamov-226T utility helicopters, together worth over $10 billion. The final contracts are yet to be signed.

On November 30, the Defence Ministry signed the Letter of Acceptance (LoA) for 145 M777 ultra-light howitzers [from BAE US] in a deal worth $737million.

All these deals are between governments and have offset clauses under which the companies are contract- bound to invest in India to source components. “An IGA is convenient as it is between sovereign governments and there is no room for controversy. They also save time,” said an official.

Missing guidelines

On the other hand, the Defence Ministry has brought in the new Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), 2016, which came into effect in April. It aims to give impetus to the private sector and promote domestic manufacturing.

However, a key chapter in the DPP on forming strategic partnerships in critical sectors is yet to be finalised. Hence big-ticket tenders have been held up.

For instance, the tender for six submarines under Project 75I to be built locally with technology transfer and worth over ₹50,000 crore is awaiting policy clarity on strategic partnerships. Similar is the case with the new fighter aircraft deal, officials told The Hindu.

Submarine and fighter aircraft are some of the designated platforms for collaboration under the strategic partnership model [emphasis added].

Domestic scene

On the domestic front, the Defence Research and Development Organisation successfully tested an indigenously developed 155-mm 52-calibre howitzer called the Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) recently. It was developed in partnership with Bharat Forge, Tata Power and the Ordinance Factory Board.

If the gun passes all user trials and is inducted into the Army, it will be a major boost to indigenous manufacturing.

The Army has a requirement for thousands of artillery guns to replace its older variants.

While this is the case with major platforms, the armed forces continue to struggle for small but critical requirements. Repeated attempts by the Army to procure a basic rifle for its soldier remain a mirage.

Deals for carbines, assault rifles, sniper rifles and Light Machine Guns (LMG) have all been cancelled recently and are being re-initiated...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on December 27, 2016, 16:52:41

Now India Wants to Build Foreign Single-Engine Fighter (Gripen? F-16?)


Boeing’s Super Hornet manufacture hits export hurdle [for any planes built in India--US restrictions]

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on December 27, 2016, 17:44:37
Indian Air Force has the spirit--official tweet:

Indian Air Force

#IndianAirForce wishes all A #MerryChristmas & A #HappyNewYear2017 @SpokespersonMoD


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on January 03, 2017, 14:45:50
Further to this post,,39917.msg1469721.html#msg1469721

more on build-in-India single-seat fighter:

Parrikar: India to Kick Off Competition for New Foreign Single-Engine Fighters

India will invite global competitive bids to select a foreign single-engine fighter to be made in India, said Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar.

Addressing a news conference here, Parrikar said the final selection for a western partner to provide a single-engine fighter for the Indian Air Force will depend on transfer of technology terms and the pricing proposed by the original equipment manufacturer.

Parrikar disclosed another single fighter line will be done under the Strategic Partnership model that will be announced later this month.

"We will submit a new acceptance of necessity proposal for new single engine fighters to Ministry of Defense in the next four months, and will request to fast-pace this new program," a senior IAF official said. "IAF will put up a demand for 200 new single engine fighters to be made in India, which will easily cost around $45 million apiece without weaponry [emphasis added]."..

However a top MoD official said selection of an Indian private company to manufacture single engine fighters will only be approved by the cabinet by the end of 2017. Thereafter a global bid will be floated, with expectation that Lockheed Martin of US and Saab of Sweden will pitch the F-16 Block 70 and Gripen, respectively.

The global tender will be floated in the first quarter of 2018. At that time, a private company will be nominated as the strategic partners production agency and a two or more year process will kick off to evaluate technical and financial bids and conduct extensive trials, MoD official noted.

The final government-to-government deal will be inked in 2021.

Currently, there is proposal to buy additional Rafale fighters, Parrikar announced, after an $8.8 billion deal was signed with France in September for 36 of the fighters.

IAF wants to replace its 11 aging Russia MiG-21 and MiG-27 squadrons in the next five to seven years. The service faces a shortage of fleet strength as it has around 34 operational fighter squadrons – 11 short of the 45 required to fight China and Pakistan at a future date.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on January 05, 2017, 20:26:33
Note 1976 Canadian angle near end of quote, then personal aspect:
Declassified: How India Tracked Pakistan’s Development of a Nuclear Device
Newly declassified documents reveal how New Delhi tracked Islamabad’s pursuit of a nuclear device.

Today, South Asia’s fragile nuclear peace risks insolvency, with both India and Pakistan armed with expansive nuclear arsenals. Moreover, given their mutual rivalry, the prospect of limited nuclear exchange continues to loom large in the region. India’s deterrent strategy accounts for a two-front nuclear exchange with both China and Pakistan. How Pakistan’s nuclear doctrine merges into its strategic identity remains an open question. When Kenneth Waltz wrote of the “spread” of nuclear weapons rather than their “proliferation” in 1981, Pakistan was yet to count itself among nuclear weapon states.

Making deterrence work amid nation-state rivalry counts on the ability of the respective intelligence communities of nuclear states to constantly attenuate uncertainty about their rival’s present as well as prospective nuclear arsenal and doctrine. Today, both India and Pakistan continue to deploy considerable intelligence resources to track the other’s nuclear arsenal.

India, for instance, has taken a keen interest in Pakistan’s pursuit of a nuclear device going back to the 1970s and even earlier. Based on newly declassified Indian documentation I was able to access, what follows is an account of what Indian external intelligence knew about Pakistan’s intentions between the 1970s leading up to the 1990s – the decade that would end with both countries coming out as the world’s sixth and seventh declared nuclear powers.

For Indian intelligence in the 1970s, the focus in Pakistan was about its reprocessing capacity and centrifuges. This shifted in the 1980s to focus on the capability to produce an explosive device, and, finally, in the 1990s, focused on the nascent Pakistani missile program routed through China, which was eventually outsourced by China to North Korea.

Soon after the 1998 tests by both countries, Indian intelligence was looking at supply chains for Pakistan’s Shaheen-II ballistic missile, almost four years ahead of its first test in 2004.There was already specific knowledge available with India on Shaheen-I, including on the hardware that was involved in steering the missile. Additionally, New Delhi was not entirely convinced that Pakistan would not use choose to use non-nuclear chemical warheads for its missiles

The trail of documents begins with a Joint Intelligence Committee Report (dated February 24, 1976) titled “Pakistan’s Capability to Produce Nuclear Weapons.” This paper was an update to a JIC Paper from March 1975. It assessed that in absence of assistance for plutonium-239 or uranium-235, “Pakistan could not be in a position to explode a nuclear device at least for four years from now.” Further, the report noted that all was not well with Karachi Nuclear Power Plant. It had developed faults due to “leakage in boiler flow down valve which resulted in reactor poisoning.” It was shut down six times in 1975 with the largest one in mid-1975 when Canadian experts were recruited to repair the leakage of heavy water from the heat exchanger.

Moreover, in 1976, diplomatic cables from the Indian Embassy in Ottawa reveal that India was becoming aware of Chinese scientists’ presence in Pakistan. A Hungarian diplomat informed an Indian diplomat in Ottawa that the Canadian government was aware that Chinese scientists were being given access to facilities with Canadian material in Pakistan, despite the Karachi Nuclear Power Plant (KANUPP-I) coming under IAEA safeguards.

Pakistan was also sharing Canadian technical knowledge with the Chinese in return for military supplies
[emphasis added]. Henry Kissinger, then-U.S. secretary of state, had visited Pakistan in 1976, where he was attempting to forge Afghan-Pakistan rapprochement following the visit of Prime Minister Bhutto to Kabul. Kissinger’s secondary agenda was to probe the France-Pakistan nuclear agreement. According to briefings received by Indian officials in Washington, Kissinger and Bhutto agreed that on the nuclear issue, “both sides will avoid confrontation.”

By September 1977, India’s external intelligence Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) had begun to report on Pakistan’s plans in detail, issuing a report called “Pakistan — Clandestine Purchase of Nuclear Equipment and Materials.” Pakistan’s Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC) had set up a purchasing channel in Bonn, Germany, and Abdul Waheed, a cousin of General Zia-ul-Haq, oversaw the funds for these clandestine contracts. $11 million was already spent by Pakistan in Western Europe on plutonium technology, including the purchase of a “shearer” for use in its reprocessing facility...

In 1976 I was a very junior Canadian diplomat in Islamabad, not directly involved in covering Pak nuke intentions which were a serious concern.  One night I got a French embassy colleague, much into his cups, to say that the French government "at the highest level" had decided to give Pakistan the bomb.

The next day, thinking this was hot poop, I told my ambassador what had happened.  He did not consider it worth reporting to Ottawa.  A few years later, when back in Ottawa, some people at ExtAff did show some interest.


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on January 05, 2017, 20:52:56
Whole lot of planes:

India To Buy Six More C295s for Coast Guard

India is likely to sign a contract with Airbus Defence and Space for 56 C295 military transports within six months, according to the country's retiring chief of the air staff, Arup Raha. Meanwhile, the Indian Ministry of Defence has cleared the separate acquisition of six C295s for an Indian Coast Guard requirement. Both orders will be delivered by the Tata-Airbus partnership that is India’s first-ever private sector aircraft development enterprise.

At his end-of-tenure press conference on December 23, Raha told AIN that the evaluation of the C295 bid for the IAF is complete and contract negotiations would start soon. “Since benchmarking and other issues [of the aircraft] are known to us, the process will not take very long, especially with a proactive defense minister where things get sorted out faster than they did in the past,” he said. He added that, given the large number of aircraft to be ordered—16 to be delivered in flyaway condition and 40 to be manufactured in India—the Coast Guard contract would be “processed subsequently to completion of this series.” He continued, “The landmark decision for manufacture of this 8- to 10-ton-capacity aircraft will empower the private sector and help us with capabilities, with assistance from OEMs.”..

The Airus-Tata partnership will deliver the C295s for the Coast Guard in “raw” condition to the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO), which will integrate an indigenous mission system. “DRDO could likely use a surface-scanning radar that could be coupled with transponders on boats, an imperative for the Coast Guard,” said Bharat Malkani, managing director of Max Aerospace & Aviation Ltd. The mission system could be a derivative of the multisensor airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) system developed by Center for Airborne System (CABS) with DRDO for the Embraer 145 platform, a defense official told AIN. “The C-295 is not a complicated aircraft. It is easy for DRDO to integrate the sensor in the nose with OEM input. It is not complicated structural work, and can be certified for airworthiness by the Indian body, CEMILAC,” said the official.

The Airbus Defence and Space C295 maritime patrol aircraft comprises a range of sensors and components including search radar, electro-optic/infrared sensors, electronic support measures, an electronic intelligence system (ELINT), COMINT, a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD), an IFF interrogator, a satcom, a datalink and a Link-11.

Civilian maritime patrol aircraft and Canada--and Bombardier?--see end here:

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on January 09, 2017, 17:29:52
Indians won't be happy--Paks test nuclear-capable Babur-3 SLCM (short-range); note Indian "Cold Start" quick, limited ground assault planning at end:

1) Reuters:

Pakistan fires 'first submarine-launched nuclear-capable missile'

Pakistan fired its first submarine-launched cruise missile on Monday, the military said, a show of force for a country that sees its missile development as a deterrent against arch-foe India.

The launch of the nuclear-capable Babur-3 missile, which has a range of 450 km (280 miles) and was fired from an undisclosed location in the Indian Ocean, is likely to heighten long-running tension between India and Pakistan...

2) Official news release


3) Official video at twitter:


Indo-Pak Nuke Missile Race

Indo-Pak Nuke Missile Race, Warheads Section

Pakistan’s Tac Nukes and India’s “Cold Start” Attack

Latest on "Cold Start" from the elephant's mouth:

A Slip of the Tongue on India's Once-Hyped 'Cold Start' Doctrine?
Is this India finally acknowledging Cold Start as sanctioned and ready for use, or something else altogether?

India’s new chief of army staff, General Bipin Rawat, spoke to India Today this week [note his snappy uniform ]. The interview offers interesting insight into the man in charge of leading India’s armed forces as tensions remain uneasy along the Line of Control in Kashmir. Notably, Rawat, in the interview, acknowledges the “Cold Start doctrine” — a formally unofficial and politically unsanctioned doctrine of limited war developed by the Indian army in the mid-2000s to allow for conventional action against Pakistan without risking nuclear retaliation.

Rawat specifically says that the “Cold Start doctrine exists for conventional military operations.” That statement in itself makes him the first actively serving Indian official — military or civilian — to acknowledge the existence of the doctrine, vindicating Pakistani concern about Indian plans to use rapid-mobilization limited war operations in a future conflict with Pakistan.

It’s unclear, though, that Rawat’s remark is meant as an acknowledgement that Cold Start stands today as both official and politically sanctioned...

Very scary part of the world.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on January 29, 2017, 14:50:10
India looking for yet another fighter type, for navy and to be built in India (good luck)

It’s Official: Indian Navy Wants 57 Carrier-borne Fighters

It’s been in the air for two years now. And now it’s formal. The Indian Navy wants new fighter jets for its aircraft carriers. Today, the navy’s planning wing has published a request for information to support the purchase of 57 Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighters (MRCBF) for its aircraft carriers.

Only weeks ago, Navy chief Admiral Sunil Lanba had rung the death knell on India’s indigenous LCA Navy, putting all doubts to rest about whether the platform would ever see carrier service. With today’s RFI, the Indian Navy has taken a tangible step that solidifies what has only been largely in the realm of speculation thus far, in addition to dispelling the MiG-29K’s chance of being a mainstay multirole fighter element for the navy stepping into the future.

On paper, the navy says, “The MRCBF are intended as day and night capable, all weather multi-role deck based combat aircraft which can be used for Air Defence (AD), Air to Surface Operations, Buddy Refuelling, Reconnaissance, EW missions etc from IN aircraft carriers.” In one of its most comprehensive RFIs for a fighter to date, the navy spreads a battery of questions on configuration over 55 pages with sub-sections, making it generally clear that it is looking for a new generation fighter with a significant electronic warfare capability, endurance and payload (something it hits several walls on with the MiG-29K fleet). Fifty-seven is a solid number of planes, so it isn’t a surprise that the MoD is ‘desirous’ of license production of the aircraft under a technology transfer arrangement...

The field of play isn’t very big, but let’s be generous and look at technically what it’s like at this time:

    Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet: CATOBAR The Super Hornet has a major Make-in-India bid going that looks to feed a prospective Indian Air Force requirement. As part of Washington’s wider technological CATOBAR push in India, Boeing’s offering gains. On the other hand, Boeing is on record to say it has simulated STOBAR ski-jump operations and that the Super Hornet is capable of operating from a Vikramaditya-class carrier.
    Dassault Rafale-M: CATOBAR The Rafale has type advantage. To be in service with at least two Indian Air Force squadrons, and the possibility of more at a later stage, the Rafale gets to push the commonality key. Cost, though, would be a pushback.
    Lockheed-Martin F-35C CATOBAR Lockheed has pushed the F-35B and C to the Indian Navy since at least 2010. It’s a single engine jet (something the US Navy was goaded into agreeing to during the JSF programme), but everything else it offers could enthuse the Indian Navy. Cost and development uncertainties/delays, on the other hand, will be a major pushback.
    Lockheed-Martin F-35B STOVL The only new jet that does the Harrier trick, it would offer enormous flexibility to small deck operations of the kind the Indian Navy may be interested in in the future, but may not account for much in the more conventional launch focus the navy appears to be choosing from for the follow-on Vikrant class ships. Cost and development issues will also hang heavy, if the platform is ever seriously under consideration.
    Saab Gripen Maritime STOBAR/CATOBAR PROPOSED Saab says the Gripen Maritime (known by its far niftier previous name ‘Sea Gripen’) is ready on paper and has been simmed in both CATOBAR and STOBAR configurations. Design work was completed in 2012, with Saab only really waiting for a fund tap from an interested customer to take the development forward. A single engine configuration works against it — the Indian Navy will be hard pressed to explain junking plans with the LCA Navy (and perhaps the up-engined Mk.2) for another albeit more capable single engine fighter.
    Mikoyan MiG-29K STOBAR The MiG-29K, it clear by now, has little chance of adding numbers in Indian inventory. A worthy fighter on a trusted platform, but it has run into several problems — not least that it doesn’t quite deliver what the Indian Navy needs from deck-based squadron, notably endurance. Other problems with the jet are well-documented, but the very fact that the Indian Navy has invested time, energy and a ton of funds on looking for new fighters means the MiG-29K is pretty much toast.
    LCA Tejas Navy Mk.2 STOBAR The LCA Navy Mk.2 remains a quandary, a variable. While the Indian Navy has specifically dumped the LCA Navy Mk.1 (powered by a F404 turbofan), it has said nothing specific about the up-engined LCA Navy Mk.2, to be powered by an F414. While development work is continuing, the Mk.2 won’t survive without the Indian Navy’s specific backing, unless it gets a government bailout to continue...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on January 29, 2017, 16:22:54
A tweet on the matter above  :):

Ian Keddie
India continues it's noble quest to acquire every aircraft type ever in existence

Mark Collins
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on January 30, 2017, 12:22:08
No surprise here:

Make-In-India Policy Implementation Slowed By Discord

India's Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar is not happy. A key aspect of India’s flagship “Make in India” program to build the nation’s industrial capacity was due at the end of 2016 but is mired in bureaucracy

Make in India is moving forward, but the defense ministry is supporting a so-called strategic partnership model, first recommended in 2015, which aims to break the hold of state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) by building up private-sector capabilities. The model would appoint an Indian company as the point organization for large-scale defense programs in six sectors: aircraft and helicopters, warships and submarines, armored vehicles, missiles, electronics and command control systems, and critical materials.

For example, a corporation such as the Tata Group or Reliance would win the chance to build all of India’s fighter aircraft or helicopters for the next few decades. This includes the replacement for the medium multi-role fighter aircraft and any other license-build programs. Projects such as the Tejas light fighter and the future advanced medium combat aircraft would remain with India’s state-owned HAL...

Blocking full implementation of Make in India is anxiety over the strategic partnership model and its implications for competition, choice and the ability to get the best deal. Deep divisions about the policy exist—even​ within the defense ministry. Despite leadership support, the defense unit that oversees state-owned industrial capacity calls the policy “problem-prone.” The policy should identify at least two companies for each build program, to ensure competitiveness of capability and price, that faction believes. U.S. and UK manufacturing giants, which will be providing the technology to these programs, are uniformly anxious.

Boeing’s joint venture with Tata is expected to begin delivering Made-in-India AH-64 Apache fuselages next year, including for the 22 India has ordered. The U.S. company has also offered to produce its F/A-18 Super Hornet in India as a potential medium combat fighter and an advanced version for a future contest.

“Any model of strategic partnership must encourage foreign partners to maximize technology transfer, ensure fair competition, and minimize future challenges to selection,” says Pratyush Kumar, Boeing India president. “Therefore, [the defense ministry] must be willing to yield control on intellectual property to foreign suppliers while keeping it available for Indian use at all times [and] select a panel of 3-4 qualified strategic Indian partners for each opportunity versus arranging marriages between foreign and domestic companies.”..

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on February 11, 2017, 12:33:15
Saab pushing back vs F-16V (Trump effect?):

Saab dangles sweetened Gripen deal
Swedish defence firm keen to set up modern facility in India to build the fighters.

Buoyed by policy developments in the US and sensing a golden opportunity to sell its Gripen E fighter jets to India, Sweden’s defence firm Saab has renewed its offer to set up a modern facility in India to build the fighters. It is also looking to export the jets from the Indian facility.

The offer is subject to the condition that India orders the Gripen E for the IAF, an order that is expected to be finalised by next month.

The Gripen E is locked in a close contest with the US-based Lockheed Martin’s F-16 to bag the combat aircraft contract for the IAF.

While Lockheed Martin had offered to move its sole production line of the F 16-Block 70 to India from Texas to meet Indian and global requirements, on Thursday, the company had said that the Trump administration will take a “fresh look” at some of these programmes [i.e. not building in US] and declared the company’s commitment to “align”  with US policy priorities.

It was also reported that with Lockheed Martin not getting any fresh F-16 orders from Pentagon, it plans to use its Fort Worth facility in Texas to make the fifth generation F-35 joint strike fighter.

On Friday [Jan. 1], Kent-Ake Molin, director, sales and marketing for Gripen, asked: “Should India be looking at aircraft that are at the end phase of its design life or should it go for an ultra modern fighter?”

At the same time, Mr Molin told this newspaper: “We are not too focused what others are doing. I am spending all my time in trying to bring all that is best for India regardless of what others are doing”...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on February 27, 2017, 13:37:02
Indian military letting a whole lot hang out:

Indian Armed forces conduct month-long exercise to test combat readiness to deal with any possible threat

The Navy has carried out a mega exercise which saw participation of its strategic assets including nuclear-powered submarine and aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya, besides Su-30 and Jaguar fighter jets of IAF.

The Theatre-level Readiness and Operational Exercise (TROPEX) was conducted to test combat readiness of the combined fleets of the Navy, the Air Force, the Army and the Coast Guard.

The aim of the month-long exercise, which was carried out across the vast expanse of the Arabian Sea and the North Central Indian Ocean, was to test the combat readiness of the forces to deal with any possible threat.

"TROPEX 2017 assumes great significance in the backdrop of current security scenario.

"The exercise provided an apt-opportunity to test the combat capability of the Indian Navy, Indian Army, Indian Air Force and Coast Guard, and strengthened inter-operability and joint operations in complex conflict situation," the Defence Ministry said.

Over 45 ships from both the Western and Eastern Naval Commands, five submarines including the nuclear powered Chakra, 50 Naval aircraft, 11 ships from the Coast Guard, troops from the Army and 20 aircraft from the Air Force including Su-30s and Jaguars participated in the exercise from January 24 to February 23.

"The exercise, in complete coordination with the Army and Air Force, was conducted in phases to test the various facets of war-fighting and joint combat capabilities of the armed forces to respond to given threat situations," the Ministry said.

It witnessed various weapon firings by ships, submarines and aircraft from both the Navy and the Air Force.

The Ministry said the interaction of the forces helped validate operational war fighting concepts and provided valuable lessons to sharpen combat skills...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on June 20, 2017, 13:36:31
Now just have to get Indian gov. to agree to buy the plane and Trump to go along (competition from at least GripenE)--will Indian gov. decide faster than Canadian?:

Lockheed Martin agrees to build F-16 fighter jets in India

Lockheed Martin has agreed to jointly build F-16 fighter planes equipped with new-generation electronics in India with Tata Advanced Systems Ltd, both companies said on Monday.

The fighters are of the Block 70 type, “the newest and most technologically advanced F-16 ever”, they said.

“The F-16 Block 70 is ideally suited to meet the Indian Air Force's single-engine fighter needs and this unmatched US-Indian industry partnership directly supports India's initiative to develop private aerospace and defense manufacturing capacity in India,” said the statement, released on the Paris air show's opening day.

The Indian air force does not currently use F-16s, but industry experts say that local production would be a strong argument in favour of the US plane against its rivals, including French company Dassault's Rafale, in future procurement decisions.

India in 2016 agreed to buy 36 Rafale combat planes for around $8.9 billion.

Accompanying that deal was a partnership agreement between Dassault and India's Reliance Group and a promise by Dassault to invest about half of the value of the contract in India.

The French company recently said it was in talks for India to buy at least 50 more.

India, the world's top defence importer, is conducting a $100-billion upgrade of its Soviet-era military hardware, facing border disputes with its northern and western neighbours, China and Pakistan.

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi has moved to reduce India's reliance on expensive imports and called for the manufacturing of defence equipment locally.

Modi's government has raised the limit on foreign investment in the defence sector and encouraged tie-ups between foreign and local companies.

The announcement comes a week before Modi visits Washington for talks with US President Donald Trump, who has been putting pressure on American companies to keep production at home...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on June 20, 2017, 13:47:18
Oh! They will decide faster than Canada. But, like everything else defense related in India where it comes to home-build, they will take three time as much time for half the quality. . . If anything actually ever gets delivered.  ;D
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on July 05, 2017, 15:41:31
More on build-in-India Block 70 F-16V plan (Gripen E looks like other possibility):

Lockheed Looks To Strengthen Bid In India’s Fighter Competition
As New Delhi’s fighter competition looms, Lockheed looks to strengthen its bid

In a bid to fortify its position in the competition to replace New Delhi’s aging MiG fighter fleet, Lockheed Martin is partnering with India’s largest conglomerate to produce F-16s in that country.

Winning India’s fighter competition is currently Lockheed’s best hope of keeping production of the legacy fighter alive well into the 2020s. A deal with New Delhi for potentially several hundred F-16s would mean more than a decade of stable F-16 production and create hundreds of jobs both in the U.S. and India, say Lockheed officials.

Lockheed Pitches F-16 to India

New Delhi weighing Lockheed F-16 versus Saab Gripen

Lockheed hopes partnership with India’s largest conglomerate, Tata Group, will strengthen its bid

If India opts for F-16, Lockheed might shift final assembly of all new Fighting Falcons to India

Lockheed argues the deal will create jobs both in the U.S. and India

Lockheed hopes the deal with Tata Advanced Systems Ltd., the defense arm of India’s Tata Group, will help tip the scales in the F-16’s favor. If India chooses Lockheed’s Fighting Falcon over Saab’s Gripen for the new fleet, Tata will be Lockheed’s primary partner for final assembly of the aircraft in India, says John Rood, senior vice president of Lockheed Martin International.

The agreement is a clear nod to Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s “Make in India” campaign to boost local manufacturing. If New Delhi elects to buy at least 100 F-16s, Lockheed is looking to permanently shift final assembly of all new Fighting Falcons to India.

In that case, Lockheed and Tata will set up and operate an in-country facility where the new fighters will be assembled, Rood says. Lockheed will still build most components in the U.S., but the two companies are in talks to potentially build certain parts in India.

Lockheed hopes to attract additional international customers for new-build F-16s, but India’s is the largest single order on the horizon. The company is finishing the last of the Iraqi F-16s at its Fort Worth facility and is hoping to finalize a contract with Bahrain for up to 20 Fighting Falcons this year. An F-16 deal with New Delhi would create jobs in the U.S. as well as India and bolster the latter’s manufacturing base, Rood says...

If the deal materializes, Lockheed and Tata would jointly build a new Indian fleet of F-16Vs, also known as “Block 70s.” The V configuration sees the addition of Northrop Grumman’s APG-83 scalable, agile-beam active, electronically scanned array radar; a center pedestal display; a new advanced mission computer; a joint helmet-mounted cueing system; and the auto-ground collision-avoidance system. Lockheed is already under contract with Singapore, South Korea and Taiwan to upgrade a total of more than 300 F-16s to the V configuration.

Pending new F-16 orders, Lockheed is facing a short-term gap in production this year...

[Conformal fuel tanks part of India plan?]

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on July 11, 2017, 14:41:11
Naval triple entente vs PLA Navy in making?

India-Japan-US Malabar 2017 Naval Exercises Kick Off With Anti-Submarine Warfare in Focus
This exercise is the first to involve a carrier from each of the navies.

Beginning on July 6, India, Japan, and the United States began the 2017 iteration of the Malabar naval exercise in the Bay of Bengal. This year’s exercise will last for eight days and have a heavy anti-submarine warfare (ASW) focus. The exercise is the second since the three countries decided that Japan would become a permanent member of what used to be a U.S.-India bilateral exercise, with other participants occasionally invited to participate or observe.

This year’s Malabar exercise is notable on several fronts. First, it’s the first naval exercise between the three countries to involve carriers from each navy. The Indian Navy has dispatched INS Vikramaditya, its modified Russian-made Kiev-class carrier that was commissioned in 2013. The United States has sent the USS Nimitz supercarrier to the exercises. Meanwhile, the Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Force sent JS Izumo, which left Japan earlier this spring for a multiple-month-long deployment to Southeast Asia before arriving in the Indian Ocean for Malabar 2017.

The Izumo is one of two Japanese warships that are among the largest the country has operated since the end of the Second World War. Japan describes the Izumo-class vessels as “helicopter destroyers” and not aircraft carriers ["through-deck cruiser anyone? ]; the warships are not equipped to launch fighter aircraft, but could likely be retrofitted for short-take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) variants of the F-35B [emphasis added]. The Izumo is joined at Malabar 2017 by JS Sazanami; both vessels recently joined U.S. Nimitz-class supercarrier USS Ronald Reagan for bilateral exercises in the South China Sea.

Excluding the three carriers from each nation, at least fourteen other warships and submarines from the three nations are participating in this year’s exercise. Additionally, the Indian Navy has sent P-8I maritime surveillance aircraft to this exercise, underlining the anti-submarine warfare focus this year. The United States has also sent a P-8A Poseidon aircraft to the exercise...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on July 11, 2017, 15:23:36
Given the distances the Indian Air Force would need to cover, conformal fuel tanks on an F-16 (or a putative Advanced Super Hornet) would make a great deal of sense.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on July 19, 2017, 14:37:30
No F-16 Block 70 for Indian Air Force?

Analysts: India won't ink a single-engine fighter deal before 2019

India's single-engine fighter program, worth $12 billion, is unlikely to be "decided before 2019," analysts and officials say, even as the Indian Air Force has decided to hold flight tests of Lockheed's F-16 Block 70 and Sweden's Gripen-E, the two aircraft competing in the program.

Restricted expressions of interests were sent through Indian embassies to "some overseas participants" to take part in the program in October last year to elicit responses to produce single-engine fighter aircraft in India. Lockheed Martin offered to shift the assembly line of its F-16 Block 70, and Sweden offered to build the Gripen-E aircraft in India with technology transfer.

The F-16 fighter aircraft did not come up for discussion during last month's summit talks on June 26 between Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and U.S. President Donald Trump in Washington, said a Ministry of Defence official without commenting on the outcome of the talks.

However, analysts and officials are skeptical whether the program would come to an early decision. Some analysts even say the F-16 will never be bought by the Indian Air Force, or IAF...

Still sounds fast by current Canadian standards  ;).


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on July 19, 2017, 17:51:40
Slowly, slowly Indian cooperation with Russia on stealth fighter goes ahead--how many fighter types for IAF?

India, Russia contract soon on 5th generation fighter aircraft

India and Russia will soon sign a contract for jointly developing the much-delayed fifth-generation fighter aircraft, a top Russian official has said.

Sergei Chemezov, the CEO of Rostec State Corporation, said that all decisions over the multi-billion dollar project to jointly develop the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) will be finalised in the "nearest future".

India and Russia inked an inter-governmental pact for the FGFA project in 2007...


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on July 24, 2017, 13:50:18
Indian Navy sub-hungry:

India kick-starts ‘mother of all underwater defence deals’


    6 countries are in the fray to build six advanced stealth submarines for an estimated Rs 70,000 crore in collaboration with an Indian shipyard.
    This conventional submarine programme called Project-75 (India) is likely to be the first mega project under the new ‘strategic partnership’ policy.

India has finally kick-started its 'mother of all underwater defence deals' after an excruciating 10-year delay, with France, Germany, Russia, Sweden, Spain and Japan being in the fray to build six advanced stealth submarines for an estimated Rs 70,000 crore ($10.9 billion) in collaboration with an Indian shipyard.

This conventional submarine programme called Project-75 (India), languishing in politico-bureaucratic apathy, files and committees since it got the government's 'acceptance of necessity' in November 2007, is likely to be the first mega project under the new 'strategic partnership' policy finalised by the defence ministry in May. But it's early days yet.

The six shipbuilders — Naval Group-DCNS (France), ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (Germany), Rosoboronexport Rubin Design Bureau (Russia), Navantia (Spain), Saab (Sweden) and the Mitsubishi-Kawasaki Heavy Industries combine (Japan) — have to first respond to the RFI (request for information) issued to them last week by September 15, officials said.

The Navy will then formulate the NSQRs (naval staff qualitative requirements) before the formal RFP (request for proposal) is issued to the six for submitting their technical and commercial bids for evaluation. The Indian shipyard for the strategic partnership with the selected foreign collaborator will be chosen in a parallel process.

"It may take around two years for the original equipment manufacturer (OEM)-Indian shipyard combine to be down-selected. Moreover, the first new submarine will be rolled out only seven to eight years after the final contract is inked. But the aim is to fasttrack the entire process," said adefence ministry official.

The Navy wants the six new diesel-electric submarines to have land-attack cruise missiles, air-independent propulsion for greater underwater endurance, and the capability to integrate indigenous weapons and sensors as and when they are developed [emphasis added].

"The stress will be on transfer of technology from the OEM and indigenisation. The submarines, to be built with indigenous steel, should also be less maintenance-intensive to ensure a better operational cycle with minimal downtime," said the official.

According to approved plans, the Navy should have 18 diesel-electric submarines as well as six nuclear-powered attack submarines (called SSNs) and four nuclear-powered submarines with long-range nuclear-tipped missiles (SSBNs) for effective deterrence against China and Pakistan, as earlier reported by TOI.

But the force is grappling with just 13 old conventional submarines, only half of them operational at any given time because at least 10 are over 25 years old, apart from two nuclear-powered submarines, INS Arihant (SSBN) and INS Chakra (SSN).

The six French Scorpene diesel-electric submarines being built at Mazagon Docks under the Rs 23,652 crore Project-75, after an over four-year delay, will be delivered by 2021. But by then, many of the 13 existing submarines will be up for retirement despite mid-life upgrades and refits...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 04, 2017, 15:33:59
More on Indian Navy sub programs (some with nukes), in face of PLA Navy:

Race to Renew India Submarine Force Amid Rising China Threat

    Depleted fleet leaves India vulnerable to underwater attack
    China rapidly expanded fleet to grow regional capabilities

After years of delay, India’s navy is preparing to take delivery of one of the world’s stealthiest and most deadly fighting tools: the INS Kalvari, an attack submarine named after a deep-sea tiger shark.

The commissioning later this month of the Scorpene class submarine is a milestone in India’s effort to rebuild its badly depleted underwater fighting force, and the first of six on order. It comes as China’s military expands its fleet to nearly 60 submarines -- compared to India’s 15 -- and increases its forays into the Indian Ocean in what New Delhi strategists see as a national security challenge.

A Chinese Yuan-class diesel-powered submarine entered the Indian ocean in May and is still lurking, according to an Indian naval officer who asked not to be identified, citing policy. It’s an unwelcome reminder of China’s rapidly expanding naval strength at a time when Indian and Chinese soldiers are engaged in a border dispute stand-off in Bhutan. China’s defense ministry didn’t respond to a faxed request for comment.

What’s the China-India Border Stand-Off All About? QuickTake Q&A

The official opening in July of China’s first naval base at Djibouti at the western end of the Indian Ocean, recent submarine sales to Pakistan and Bangladesh and a visit last year of a Chinese nuclear-powered submarine to Karachi, have also exposed how unprepared India’s navy is to meet underwater challenges.


"The lack of long-term planning and procurement commitment in defense acquisition plans can be considered tantamount to negligence” by the Indian government, said Pushan Das, a research fellow at the New Delhi-based Observer Research Foundation’s National Security Program. India needs to “counter increasing PLA-N activities in the region," he said, referring to the People’s Liberation Army Navy.

Ministry of Defence spokesman Nitin Wakankar would not comment on the Indian Navy’s submarine fleet plan.
Dwindling Fleet

Since 1996, India’s attack submarine fleet has dwindled to 13 diesel-electric vessels from 21 as the navy failed to replace retired boats. The entire fleet -- a mixture of Russian-origin Kilo class vessels and German HDW submarines -- is at least 20 years old. All have been refitted to extend their operational lives until at least 2025.

In contrast, China’s underwater fleet boasts five nuclear-powered attack submarines and 54 diesel-powered attack submarines. By 2020, the force will likely grow to between 69 and 78 submarines, according to the Pentagon’s latest report on China’s military. 

Still, analysts say it will be years before China can pose a credible threat to India in the Indian Ocean.

“Simple geography gives India a huge strategic advantage in the Indian Ocean,” said David Brewster, a senior research fellow with the National Security College at the Australian National University in Canberra. “And although China has been sending in submarines, you have to understand they are probably decades away from being able to seriously challenge India there, especially while the United States is present.”

China’s navy needs to enter the Indian Ocean through narrow choke points like the Malacca Strait that runs between Indonesia and Malaysia. Indian surveillance planes deployed to Andaman & Nicobar Islands patrol the area, and one spotted the Chinese submarine in May.

In the meantime, India is slowly upgrading its underwater fleet.

The INS Kalvari is the first of six French-made Scorpene submarines on order in a 236 billion rupee ($3.7 billion) project awarded in 2005 to the state-owned defense shipyard Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd. and France’s Naval Group, formerly known as DCNS Group. Junior defense minister Subhash Bhamre said in July that the first of these would be delivered in August.

In February 2015 India approved the construction of six nuclear-powered attack submarines. Few details have been released about the 600 billion rupee program.

And on July 21, India initiated another program to build six more diesel submarines. It sent information requests to six manufacturers -- Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems GmbH, Naval Group of France, Madrid-based Navantia SA, Sweden’s Saab AB, a Russia-Italian joint venture called Russian Rubin Design Bureau and a consortium between Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd. and Kawasaki Heavy Industries Ltd. The project is worth about 500 billion rupees.

As well as its attack submarines, India is developing an underwater nuclear deterrence. The first nuclear-powered submarine that can launch ballistic missiles was commissioned in 2016, part of a program to build at least three. The navy is using a Russian nuclear-powered submarine it leased for 10 years in 2012 to train the crew. China has four nuclear-powered ballistic-missile submarines.

Even with the announced programs, India isn’t likely to meet its 2030 deadline for shoring up its submarine fleet. To deter both China and Pakistan, planners reckon the fleet needs at least 18 diesel, six nuclear and four nuclear-armed submarines...
The undocking of Indian Navy's first Scorpene Submarine INS Kalvari in April 2015. Photographer: Divyakant Solanki/EPA

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Dimsum on August 04, 2017, 17:08:27
China’s defense ministry didn’t respond to a faxed request for comment.

Uh, yeah...who uses faxes these days?   >:D
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 08, 2017, 13:22:39
Good long read, esp. relevant with US wooing India and current rising India/China Himalayan border tension--note also India/Pakistan nuke capabilities and evolving doctrines (cf. Indian Army "Cold Start" plan):

Southern Asia’s Escalating Strategic Competition


Pakistan’s Tac Nukes and India’s “Cold Start” Attack

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 09, 2017, 17:57:39
"Make in India" F-16V looks like biting the dust--way getting clear for Gripen E?

US Denies Transfer of Critical Technology and F-16 Fighter Production in India

US has denied transfer of critical technology and production of F-16 fighter jets under the ‘Make in India’ initiative.

To a question on whether the US has agreed for transfer of sophisticated technology and production of F-16 jets under the ‘Make in India’ initiative, Subhash Bhamre, Minister of State for Defense said “no”. Bhamre was answering the question in the parliament Tuesday [Aug. 8].

The critical technologies in question are integrated systems for active electronically scanned array radar, electro-optical targeting pod, infrared search and track and radio frequency jammer. It may be recalled the US had refused to part with these technologies for the South Korean K-FX aircraft, a derivative of the F-16 made by Korean Aerospace Industries in association with Lockheed Martin. South Korea is building its own fighter plane closely modelled along the F-16 with a number of crucial inputs coming from Lockheed Martin.

These technologies form an important component of the F-16V fighter jet, the latest evolution of the world’s most successful war plane that has been offered to New Delhi. India has sought guarantee from US for technology transfer in case any US based company bids for fighter jet program under the ‘Make in India’ initiative last month.

It was certain by March this year that the production line would not be set up in India. Lockheed Martin started shifting production of its F-16 fighter jets to Greenville from its existing Fort Worth, Texas facility effectively burying its plans to move the production line to India...

Recently on F-16V vs. Gripen E:

Analysts: India won't ink a single-engine fighter deal before 2019

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 09, 2017, 20:16:30
On verra when any Indian Su-57 is in service:

India to finalize fifth-gen fighter deal

As for early Su-57s:

Why Russia's New Su-57 Stealth Fighter Might Be a Giant Waste of Time



Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 28, 2017, 14:22:18

"Make in India" F-16V looks like biting the dust--way getting clear for Gripen E?


US Denies Transfer of Critical Technology and F-16 Fighter Production in India

But now F-16 still seems in running (if India moves anything like as fast as is suggested will make new RCAF fighter procurement even more embarrassing);

India to announce road map for single-engine fighter program

To accelerate the Make in India initiative under the strategic partnership model, the ruling National Democratic Alliance will formally issue a request for information next month to Lockheed Martin of the U.S. and Saab of Sweden to manufacture single-engine fighters in collaboration with a private company in the India.

The Ministry of Defence will float a request for information, or RFI, to Lockheed Martin for its F-16 Block 70 and Saab for its Gripen E next month, a senior MoD official said.

Under the new strategic partnership, or SP, model the two companies will be asked to submit offers of the single-engine fighters’ air power capabilities, the offer for India-specific technology transfer, indigenous solutions for the program and the offer for building an ecosystem for the program in the country, said a senior Indian Air force official.

“We have chosen both F-17 Block 70 and Gripen E because both single-engine fighters are fully upgraded, fully tested and are in full use,” the IAF official added.

Both Lockheed Martin and Saab will be given three months to respond to the RFI, which will then be evaluated by an IAF expert committee and the final selection will be made early next year [!!! emphasis added], the IAF official added.

Likewise, an expression of interest, or EOI, will be issued to domestic companies in the next three to four months, who will, in turn, tie-up with overseas original equipment manufacturers, or OEMs, to build around 120 single engine fighters, initially costing around $18 billion under the strategic partnership model, an MoD official noted...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 29, 2017, 16:41:26
Meanwhile Boeing now going after Indian Navy with Make-in-India Super Hornet:

US Boeing FA-18 Super Hornet offered under Made in India initiative; will Indian Navy get this jet?
US aerospace major Boeing Company made a push for Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet to meet Indian Naval Carrier platform requirement, and said they could be produced in India under Make in India initiative. Briefing media persons in New Delhi, ahead of a meeting between the company executives and the Indian Navy on Tuesday, Dan Gillian, vice president of F/A-18 and EA Programmes, Boeing, said “ a platform like the “Super Hornet” under the Make in India programme will help the Indian industry to position itself for the manufacture of Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).” “Boeing can provide the capability needed for the Indian Navy to build its next generation carrier air wing. It can also provide the industrial base right here behind that capability,” Gillian said. “When we look across the globe at quality, capability and cost – India is an obvious partner. We have been building F/A-18 aero structures and assemblies in India because it makes good business sense to do so.”

Boeing is one of the four vendors which have responded to India Navy’s Multi-role carrier-borne fighters (MRCBF) Tender to Supply 57 carrier-borne fighter jets to equip its aircraft carriers. The company’s top executive said that Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet is the most advanced tactical fighter, an ideal fit for Indian Navy next gen carriers, adding that Indian Navy needs aircraft to operate off carriers that are networked & survivable with growth potential and Boeing F/A-18 is the best fit. Gillian also said that Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet is an evolving platform which will outpace future threats and will be on US Navy carriers into the 2040s [emphasis added--that is current USN plan ]. The company officials also made a pitch for Scan Eagle unmanned air systems (UAS) which already has been offered to Indian Navy.

The Indian Navy initiated the bid and issued a Request for Information (RfI) for Procurement of Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighter for The Indian Navy earlier this year.  “The Analytical and (computer) simulations have shown that the F/A-18 is compatible with the current carrier fleet of the Indian Navy. The results of the test have been submitted in response to a global RFI issued by the Navy,” said Pratyush Kumar, president, Boeing India. Responding to queries, Kumar said that the aircraft comes with an overall life cycle cost which is more reasonable than other contenders in the bid. “The overall life cycle cost is far lower than others,” Kumar said. “The Super Hornet has the lowest cost per flight hour which is even lower than Lockheed Martin’s F-16.”..


Currently the Super Hornet, Rafale, Gripen, and MiG-29K are in the running. Even the F-35B and F-35C could be possible contenders, but at this time it is unclear if the Joint Strike Fighter will be formally offered. Only the Rafale and Super Hornet are CATOBAR capable today. The MiG-29K would be upgraded for catapult launch capabilities and may port over some technology from the latest MiG-35 Fulcrum variant. Gripen-E would have to be navalized completely, but the SAAB has closely studied doing this under the Sea Gripen concept for years. Also, the Gripen is single engine and it seems like the Indian Navy is interested in a twin engine design, but still, Gripen is a hardy and efficient combat jet and has a lot to offer the Indian Navy...


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: CloudCover on August 29, 2017, 23:43:20
I have 2 questions...
If the Sea Gripen is potentially a "contender" because the Gripen is a "hardy" aircraft, but also potentially out because it only has a single engine (and currently is only a design idea), how is the F35 only a potential contender? (perhaps because it will never be built in India?)
If Boeing is willing to discuss the Super Hornet as a made in India solution for only 57 aircraft, is there a similar offer from Boeing to build "at least" 88 in Canada??
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on September 09, 2017, 16:15:16
Asian military cockpit--growing Delhi/Tokyo axis (with US support) vs Beijing section, note amphibious SAR aircraft US-2, maritime patrol and ASW:

India, Japan to step up defence cooperation

India and Japan have agreed to collaborate closely in defence production, including on dual-use technologies, as the two countries resolved to ramp up overall military engagement under the bilateral special strategic framework.

Defence Minister Arun Jaitley and his Japanese counterpart Itsunori Onodera yesterday held wide-ranging talks, as part of the India-Japan annual defence ministerial dialogue in Tokyo during which issues relating to the US-2 amphibious aircraft also figured [emphasis added], a joint press statement said.

The decision by India and Japan to boost defence ties comes amid escalating tension in the region in the wake of the nuclear test by North Korea and China’s growing assertiveness in the South China Sea.

The two sides also agreed to commence technical discussions for research collaboration in the areas of Unmanned Ground Vehicles and Robotics.

India plans to buy the US-2 ShinMaywa aircraft from Japan for its navy. Last year, China had reacted angrily to reports that Japan plans to sell weapons to India at cheaper prices, saying that such a move is disgraceful [emphasis added].

The two sides also agreed to ramp up counter-terror cooperation, besides deepening engagement among navies, air forces and ground forces of the two countries.

“The Ministers exchanged views and ideas with the aim to further strengthen defence and security cooperation under the framework of the ‘Japan-lndia Special Strategic and Global Partnership’,” the statement said today.

It said Jaitley and Onodera deliberated on the current security situation in the Indo-Pacific region and condemned in the strongest terms North Korea’s latest nuclear test and called upon the country to cease such action which adversely impacts peace and stability of the region and beyond.

Reviewing bilateral defence ties, they commended the progress made in discussions to identify specific areas of collaboration in the field of defence equipment and technology cooperation for production of various military platforms.

They noted the effort made by both countries regarding the cooperation on US-2 amphibious aircraft [emphasis added],” said the statement.

The ministers endorsed the importance of enhancing interaction between governments and defence industries of the two countries to encourage collaboration, including for defence and dual-use technologies.

In the meeting, Jaitley briefed about India’s policy reforms in the defence manufacturing sectors, saying the country offers huge opportunities for foreign industries to play an active role.

Seeking to further intensify naval cooperation, Onodera expressed his intention to have state-of-the-art Japanese assets, including P-1 maritime patrol aircraft to participate in next year’s trilateral Malabar naval exercise which also involves the US Navy.

“The two sides will consider inclusion of Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) training to expand cooperation. In addition the ministers agreed to pursue exchanges and training by ASW aviation units such as P-3C
[emphasis added],” the statement said. P-3C is an anti-submarine and maritime surveillance aircraft.

The Japanese side proposed to invite Indian Navy personnel to mine-countermeasures training held by it.

Jaitley attended the dialogue with Japan as defence minister though Nirmala Sitharaman was given the defence portfolio in the cabinet reshuffle on Sunday. Jaitley had said there were logistical constraints for her to attend the dialogue.

At the talks, the two sides also welcomed the constructive engagement between Japan’s Acquisition, Technology and Logistic Agency (ATLA) and India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The defence and security cooperation between India and Japan is on an upswing and both countries are exploring ways to further deepen it.

Prime Minister Modi had visited Japan in November last year during which both sides had decided to ramp up bilateral defence and security cooperation.

Shinmaywa US-2 (might India, er, weaponize?):

From 2015:

Maybe a Bit of a Delhi-Tokyo Axis After All, Part 2

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on September 20, 2017, 13:27:10
Big problem for Boeing to build Super Hornets in India for navy, Lockheed to build F-16V for air force:

Exclusive: U.S. defense firms want control over tech in Make-in-India plan

U.S. defense firms offering to set up production lines in India to win deals worth billions of dollars want stronger assurances they won’t have to part with proprietary technology, according to a business lobby group’s letter to India’s defense minister.

These companies are also saying they shouldn’t be held liable for defects in products manufactured in collaboration with local partners under Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s Make-in-India’s drive to build a military industrial base.

Lockheed Martin (LMT.N) and Boeing (BA.N) are both bidding to supply combat jets to India’s military, which is running short of hundreds of aircraft as it retires Soviet-era MiG planes, and its own three-decade long effort to produce a domestic jet is hobbled by delays.

Lockheed has offered to shift its F-16 production line to India from Fort Worth, Texas, and make it the sole factory worldwide if India orders at least 100 single-engine fighters.

The U.S. firm has picked Tata Advanced Systems as its local partner under the defense ministry’s new Strategic Partnership model under which foreign original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) can hold up to a 49 percent stake in a joint venture with an Indian private firm which will hold the majority of shares.

The US-India Business Council (USIBC) wrote to India’s defense minister last month seeking a guarantee that U.S. firms would retain control over sensitive technology - even as joint venture junior partners.

“Control of proprietary technologies is a major consideration for all companies exploring public and private defense partnerships,” the business lobby, which represents 400 firms, said in the Aug. 3 letter, reviewed by Reuters and previously unreported.

“To allow foreign OEMs to provide the most advanced technologies, the partnership arrangement between an Indian owned ‘strategic partner’ company and a foreign OEM needs to provide an opportunity for the foreign OEM to retain control over its proprietary technology,” it said, noting this wasn’t explicit in the policy document.


Technology transfer is at the heart of Modi’s drive to build a domestic industrial base and cut a reliance on imports that has made India the world’s biggest arms importer in recent years.

Without full tech transfer in previous arms deals, India’s mainly state-run defense factories have largely been left to assemble knock-down kits even for tanks and aircraft produced under license from the foreign maker.

Modi’s advisers have vowed to change that...

Lockheed did not respond to a request for comment. Boeing, which is bidding for a separate contract to sell its F/A-18 Super Hornets for India’s aircraft carrier fleet, declined to comment on the USIBC letter. But the company’s India president, Pratyush Kumar, told a conference this month there were concerns about Indian private firms’ lack of experience in the aerospace sector...

Trump might have concerns too--in MAGA, not MIGA, business.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on October 23, 2017, 17:01:27
Thirty-six more Rafales for air force?  Plus sub competition:

Eyeing more sale of Rafales, French defence minister Florence Parley heads to India next week

French defence minister Florence Parley will be here next week to lay the groundwork to further boost the bilateral strategic partnership ahead of President Emmanuel Macron's visit to India in December.

France is very keen to hard-sell additional Rafale fighters to India after the IAF inducts the 36 jets being acquired under the Rs 59,000 crore (7.87 billion) megadeal inked in September last year.

The IAF has itself projected the operational need to go in for another 36 Rafales after the first 36 are inducted at the Hasimara (West Bengal) and Ambala (Haryana) airbases from November 2019 to mid-2022, as was earlier reported by TOI...

France, of course, is also one of the four remaining contenders for Project-75 (India), under which six advanced stealth submarines are to be built here through a collaboration between a foreign ship-builder and an Indian shipyard for an estimated Rs 70,000 crore ($10.9 billion).


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: PuckChaser on October 23, 2017, 17:32:06
That's $11.5B CAD for 36 aircraft. Cost of a first world airforce is expensive.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: YZT580 on October 23, 2017, 21:59:44
That is a lower price per unit than the Hornet we have been offered.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on October 23, 2017, 22:11:13

That is a lower price per unit than the Hornet we have been offered.

True but all depends on what is included in the deal beyond the URF  price.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on November 02, 2017, 15:56:23
Saab sweetening Gripen E pot (how tech might LockMart be allowed to transfer?):

Saab plans Gripen ecosystem in India

Saab and its Indian partner Adani held an event in New Delhi on 31 October, intended to build industrial alliances in support of the Swedish group’s bid to supply its Gripen E combat aircraft to the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Saab said that the ‘Gripen-India partnership summit’ was geared towards “creating an industrial ecosystem to develop and produce [the] Gripen in India”. Saab has offered the aircraft to meet the IAF’s single-engine fighter requirement.

The deal is framed around a localised production requirement, and could be worth about USD12 billion as the IAF seeks to procure up to 150 aircraft to replace its ageing Russian MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighter aircraft.

To support its localised production proposal, Saab said the summit brought together international Gripen partners – including Honeywell, Leonardo, Harris, and Cobham – and more than 100 Indian suppliers that “Saab and Adani believe can add value to the offering for India”.

Saab added, “This is to start shaping an eco-system for Gripen in India in preparation for the single-engine fighter selection process.”

The summit was held just two months after Saab and Adani announced their partnership to jointly bid for the IAF’s single-engine fighter requirement.

Saab said that it would endeavour to transfer design and manufacturing capabilities to Adani under the collaboration, with the goal of enabling the production of systems in India and promoting general development of the country’s defence industry.

Upon announcing the partnership with Adani, Saab’s president and CEO Håkan Buskhe said, “We are committed to the India-Sweden relationship, and in bringing the latest technology and skills to India. Our plans in India are to create a new defence ecosystem that would involve many partners, vendors, and suppliers. To achieve this, we need a strong Indian partner who can help create the framework for the infrastructure and eco-system to come into place.”


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on November 02, 2017, 17:53:02
By the way Saab is already working with Bombardier, fwiw  ;):


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on November 07, 2017, 14:04:52
Was pretty sure there'd be this sort of problem with "Make-in-India":

$10-billion fighter deal hits tech-transfer air pocket

 India’s $10-billion single-engine fighter jet deal is believed to have hit a stumbling block over the contentious issue of transfer of technology (ToT) and equity participation. This is while negotiations are on for the purchase of more Rafale jets from France.

The two main contenders for the deal — Lockheed Martin and SAAB — have made it clear to the Defence Ministry that they will not go in for a complete transfer of technology (ToT) with 49 per cent equity participation in the joint ventures that they have inked with their respective Indian partners, sources told BusinessLine.

Under the defence foreign direct investment rules, global OEMs can invest more than 49 per cent with prior government approval. However, the fighter-jet deal has to be executed under the new ‘Strategic Partnership’ (SP) policy, and as per the norms laid out in this policy, it is the Indian entity that will have a controlling stake with 51 per cent.

The Defence Ministry is looking to acquire at least 100 of these jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF). While the US’ Lockheed Martin has offered the advanced F-16 Block 70, Swedish defence major SAAB has presented its single-engine multi-role Gripen E for the programme.

Lockheed Martin and SAAB have also joined hands with Tata Advance Defence Systems Ltd and the Adani Group, respectively, to design, develop and produce the warplanes in India under the ‘Make in India’ programme.

The issue of proprietary technology was also raised by US Secretary of State Rex Tillerson during his visit last month. He made it clear that ToT will come for a price.

The government is now looking at a follow-on order to buy more Rafale jets, which will be in addition to the 36 bought in September last year for $8.9 billion. The IAF is also keen on buying more of these warplanes, according to sources.

The decision to buy more Rafale jets from Dassault Aviation is likely to be announced during the visit of French President Emmanuel Macron in December, sources added.

However, the sources said, India has already informed the French that “not a single” Rafale will be bought in flyaway mode — they will be built in the Dhirubhai Ambani Aerospace Park, run by Reliance Aerospace Ltd and Dassault Aviation in the Mihan Special Economic Zone in Nagpur.

Dassault Aviation Chief Eric Trappier had recently said, in France, that the company is in talks with India for more orders.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on November 13, 2017, 17:08:17
India's "Act East" policy in action, with China in mind--but will not become full US "partner" or effectively an ally, prefers a more tous azimuts approach with Russia as a major balancer (note meeting was of diplomatic officials, not defence):

Quadrilateral Coalition on the Indo-Pacific

 With an eye on China’s activities in the region, India said that the first meeting of its officials with those from the US, Australia and Japan — described as the “quadrilateral” — agreed that a “free, open, prosperous and inclusive Indo-Pacific region serves the long-term interests of all countries in the region and of the world at large”.

"Officials from India’s Ministry of External Affairs, Australia’s Department of Foreign Affairs, Japan’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs and United State’s Department of State met in Manila on November 12, 2017 for consultations on issues of common interest in the Indo-Pacific region," said a government release.
The discussions focused on cooperation based on their converging vision and values for promotion of peace, stability and prosperity in an increasingly inter-connected region that they share with each other and with other partners.
They agreed that a free, open, prosperous and inclusive Indo-Pacific region serves the long-term interests of all countries in the region and of the world at large. The officials also exchanged views on addressing common challenges of terrorism and proliferation linkages impacting the region as well as on enhancing connectivity.
The quadrilateral partners committed to deepening cooperation, which rests on a foundation of shared democratic values and principles, and to continue discussions to further strengthen the rules-based order in the Indo-Pacific region.
The Indian side highlighted India’s Act East Policy as the cornerstone of its engagement in the Indo-Pacific region.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on December 15, 2017, 16:06:09
Progress on Indian Navy's "Make-n-India" SSK front:
INS Kalvari Commissioned into the Indian Navy

The Prime Minister of India,  Narendra Modi commissioned INS Kalvari (S-21), the first of the six Scorpene class submarines built under Project 75 (Kalvari Class) into the Indian Navy at an impressive ceremony held at Naval Dockyard, Mumbai on 14 December 2017.
The event marked the formal induction into the Navy of the first of the six submarines being constructed at Mazagon Docks Ltd., in collaboration with the French builder M/s Naval Group.
Upon arrival at Naval Dockyard, Mumbai, the Prime Minster was received by the Chief of the Naval Staff. The Prime Minster was presented a 100-man Guard of Honour and was introduced to the ship’s officers and other dignitaries present.
Congratulating the people of India on this occasion, the Prime Minister described INS Kalvari as a prime example of "Make in India." He commended all those involved in its manufacture. He described the submarine as an excellent illustration of the fast growing strategic partnership between India and France. He said the INS Kalvari will add even more strength to the Indian Navy.
The Prime Minister said that the 21st century is described as Asia's century. He added that it is also certain that the road to development in the 21st century goes through the Indian Ocean. That is why the Indian Ocean has a special place in the policies of the Government, he added. The Prime Minister said this vision can be understood through the acronym SAGAR - Security and Growth for All in the Region.
The Prime Minister said India is fully alert with regard to its global, strategic and economic interests in the Indian Ocean. He said that is why the modern and multi-dimensional Indian Navy plays a leading role in promoting peace and stability in the region.
He said India believes that the world is one family, and is fulfilling its global responsibilities. India has played the role of "first responder" for its partner countries, in times of crises, he added.
Congratulating the MDL for restarting the production line of submarines once again, Mrs Nirmala Sitharaman, the Raksha Mantri thanked the Yard workers, who she said “mattered high on this day”.
The process of submarine construction has again been started in the country and it should not stop, the Raksha Mantri said. She emphasized the need to avoid episodic starts and stops in the industry and maintain a pool of skills needed to build high technology platforms within the country, sustenance of which would lead to a virtuous cycle of betterment for Indian industry, retention of skills and better peace dividends to the nation.
INS Kalvari is manned by a team comprising 08 officers and 35 sailors with Captain SD Mehendale at the helm as her first Commanding Officer. The commissioning will augment the offensive capability of the Indian Navy, and the Western Naval Command in particular.

More on Naval Group's (formerly DCNS--French company's name now in English!) Scorpene class, lots of success world-wide:

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on December 20, 2017, 18:22:41
Looks like PM Modi's "Make-in-India" policy will stick air force with more HAL Tejas:

India launches $8 billion program for light combat aircraft

India formally launched a program Wednesday to buy a fleet of 83 single-engine fighters for about $8 billion.

The light combat aircraft, dubbed the LCA Mark-1A, will be produced by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd on nomination. This is the largest Make in India defense program and the first effort to build fighters in the country without obtaining technology transfer from overseas, a Ministry of Defence official said.

The purchase of an adapted version of the LCA Mark-1 comes amid skepticism about a another effort to purchase of 105 Mark 2 versions of futuristic, homemade light-combat aircraft for $15 billion. Service officials and analysts have said that program lacks clarity...

A pair of Tejas - Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) take off during a display on the second day of the Aero India exhibition at Yelahanka Air Force Station in Bangalore on February 15, 2017. (Manjunath Kiran/AFP/Getty Images)

So no F-16Vs or GripenEs?  Paks and Chinese should be relieved.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on February 07, 2018, 13:37:16
More on new fighters for Indian navy (and air force:

1) Boeing in Talks With Indian Navy to Sell F/A-18 Fighter Jets

Boeing Co. is in talks with the Indian Navy to sell its F/A-18 Hornet fighter jets in a bid to gain a bigger share of the defense market in the South Asian country, the world’s biggest arms importer.

A lot of technical evaluation has yet to take place, Gene Cunningham, Boeing’s vice president for defense, space and security, told reporters at the Singapore Airshow. The company is also seeing opportunities for its KC-46 multirole tanker in India and other countries, Cunningham said.

India’s navy last year invited proposals for 57 jets for its aircraft carriers, while its air force is seeking at least 100 planes. Boeing and Saab AB have said both the orders should be combined, which would make it the world’s biggest fighter jet order in play [emphasis added].

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who plans to spend $250 billion in the coming years on defense equipment from fighter jets to guns and helmets, wants India and local companies to get a share of the deals it enters into by calling on foreign manufacturers to make products locally. Boeing, Lockheed Martin Corp. and others have said they will produce in India if they win contracts large enough to make investments worthwhile...

2) SINGAPORE: Saab responds to India Navy RFP with Sea Gripen [hasn't flown]

Saab has responded to an Indian navy request for proposals for carrier-borne fighter aircraft with an offer based on a marinised variant of its Gripen NG.

The navy is reported to require up to 57 multi-role combat aircraft that would replace its current fleet of Sukhoi Su-30s.

No details on the timeline for any acquisition have been released, with Saab officials indicating that they are unsure of when any decision would be made by New Delhi.

Saab says it is open to technology transfer as part of any Gripen deal [emphasis added]. The Swedish manufacturer has previously partnered with Embraer to work on the Gripen E/Fs ordered by Brazil.

The Swedish manufacturer says the Sea Gripen will have all the capabilities of the Gripen E/F as well as a "small logistic footprint".

Meanwhile, Saab says it is confident of acquiring more operators for the GE Aviation F414-powered fighter in the Asia-Pacific, revealing that it is in talks with "prospects" including Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on February 07, 2018, 14:11:01
Well, whoopdidoo!

F/A-18 E/F would be for the Indian carrier force. However, the INS Vikrant, which was laid down in 2009 but has yet to enter service (sea trials expected starting possibly in 2019 if nothing more goes wrong! And commissioning somewhere in the 2021-23 timeframe) is a STOBAR carrier and cannot operate F-18's.

Those airplanes would be for the yet to even be started INS Vishal. President Trump's clearing India to receive demonstration and potential acquisition of EMALS launchers (even though he thinks they are crap and wants them removed from US carrier(s) and go back to steam) for the Vishal cleared the way for a potential CATOBAR carrier. However, the Vishal is now not expected to arrive before some time in 20230's. Will F-18's even be around by then?
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on February 09, 2018, 19:59:54
Interesting social changes going on in India, as more and more people are adopting English as their primary language at home. The idea of a globe spanning Anglosphere becomes stronger, especially as these people become a larger and more influential demographic in India (they already represent an affluent and influential section of the population). Interesting article at link:

Indo-Anglians: The newest and fastest-growing caste in India
An influential demographic or psychographic is emerging in India  – and it is  affluent, urban and highly educated.

Indo-Anglians: The newest and fastest-growing caste in India
Feb 02, 2018 · 11:30 am
Sajith Pai
Sometime around 2012 or 2013, my daughters stopped speaking in Konkani, our mother tongue. It isn’t entirely clear what provoked it. Perhaps it was a teacher at their Mumbai school encouraging students to speak more English at home. Or perhaps it was something else. It didn’t matter. What did matter was that our home became an almost exclusively English-speaking household, with the occasional Konkani conversation.

We were not alone. Clustered throughout the affluent sections of urban India are many families such as ours, predominantly speaking English and not the tongues they grew up with.

Some of these families, or at least parents in these English-speaking households, do make an attempt to speak their mother tongue as much as they speak in English. But even in these bilingual households, English still dominates. It takes an effort for the kids to speak in the Indian tongues, beyond a few simple phrases. English, on the other hand, comes naturally to them; the larger vocabulary they possess in English helping them express complex thoughts and propositions far easily.

I have been looking for a term, an acronym or a phrase that describes these families who speak English predominantly at home. These constitute an influential demographic, or rather a psychographic, in India  –  affluent, urban, highly educated, usually in intercaste or inter-religious unions. I propose to call them Indo-Anglians.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on February 15, 2018, 16:05:34
This could take while--and US would have well-justified security concerns about F-35s in India:

Indian Air Force requests [briefing on] F-35A fighter aircraft

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is requesting a classified briefing on the F-35A Lightning II fighter aircraft, the Business Standard reports on 15 February.

Business Standard learns the IAF top brass is formally requesting for a classified briefing by the F-35’s prime builder, Lockheed Martin, on the capabilities of the sophisticated, fifth-generation fighter developed under the US Joint Strike Fighter programme.

The local source reported that IAF looks to procure a “next-generation fighter aircraft” to replace its MiG-27 and MiG-29 combat aircraft. It is expected that the IAF plans to order 126 new fighters that incorporate “conventional take-off and landing”...

And what about Su-57?  Which India has been working with Russia on.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on February 22, 2018, 14:34:19
CHARLIE FOXTROT to the max, eh?  Excerpts:

Glavin: Justin Trudeau's trip to India could hardly be going worse

...nobody seems quite sure why Trudeau is travelling around India with his wife and his children and an entourage of cabinet ministers and MPs and various officials and a celebrity chef from Vancouver.

It has struck the BBC’s Ayeshea Perera that the point of it “appears to be a series of photo ops cunningly designed to showcase his family’s elaborate traditional wardrobe.” There sure doesn’t seem to be much business to attend to. A half-day here, a meeting there, perhaps a whole day all told out of an eight-day state visit set aside for what you might call state business.

Straight away, the tone was just weird.

There he was with his wife Sophie Gregoire and their children, Ella Grace, Xavier and Hadrien, at one mood-setting location after another, posing. And in elaborate costume. Different location shoot, a different costume. Oh look, here they are at the Sabarmati Ashram in Ahmedabad. And now they’re at the Mathura Wildlife Sanctuary, with the elephants Maya, Bijlee and Lakshmi!

The Taj Mahal, the Jama Masjid, and then Mumbai, with movie stars. Hey, who’s that posing for a photograph with Sophie Gregoire? Oh my goodness it’s convicted Khalistani would-be assassin Jaspal Singh Atwal, the triggerman in the attempted murder of Punjab cabinet minister Malkiat Singh Sidhu on a backroad on Vancouver Island in 1986, when Sidhu was in Canada to attend a nephew’s wedding.

And oh, look, there he is again, in another photo, posing with Edmonton member of Parliament and Infrastructure Minister Amarjeet Sohi.

Crikey, this is awkward. Trudeau and Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan had just managed to finagle a meeting with the notoriously paranoid Punjab Chief Minister Amarinder Singh, a military man who had made a name for himself in Canada by accusing Canada’s Sikh MPs and cabinet ministers of Khalistani terrorist sympathies. The meeting had gone well. Everything seemed to be going swimmingly. Bygones, bygones. And then Atwal shows up.

The posed photos were one thing. But what do you know, in Atwal’s possession was an embossed invitation from the Canadian High Commission to attend a dinner with Trudeau and his ministers and all the other bigshots, in Delhi, on Thursday night.

Great. Just great.

It is worth keeping in mind that Trudeau didn’t have much else to do in India that was more important than disabusing everyone of the misapprehension that Canada was becoming a safe haven for Khalistani whackjobs again. Trudeau’s one big job was to convince Singh and Prime Minister Narendra Modi and everyone in between that Canada’s Liberal government was not backsliding to the ethnic-bloc politics of the 1980s.

Apart from posing for photos and sightseeing and attending a few meetings, the only thing Trudeau really needed to do was persuade India that despite appearances, Canada wasn’t returning to the days when Liberal politicians were happily oblivious to the theocratic-fascist Khalistani movement, which wants an independent Sikh homeland, had set itself up in Canada, with its dreams of carving out a Sikh state from the Indian portion of ancient Punjab, and its “government in exile” in Vancouver...

Two years ago, the Khalsa Darbar gurudwara in Mississauga decided that the temple would be forthwith off limits to Indian diplomats. The pretext was some row involving the visit of a diplomat accompanied by an RCMP security detail. The diplomat-barring quickly became a diplomat boycott involving 14 Sikh temples in Ontario. Within months, the boycott had spread to Sikh temples across the United States, Britain and Australia.

At the conclusion of his meeting with Trudeau and Sajjan, Chief Minister Singh gave them both a list of nine Canadians alleged to be involved in terrorist activities and “hate crimes” inspired by militant Khalistani politics.

The list almost certainly contains the same names that Indian officials had already passed on to the Canadian High Commission. The individuals, from Vancouver, Surrey, Brampton and Toronto, whose whereabouts are unknown, are alleged to be fundraisers and gunrunners for Khalistani terrorists. The men are associated with the Khalistan Zindabad Force, listed as a terrorist entity by the European Union, the Khalistan Liberation Force, a Pakistan-based group that has carried out a series of assassinations in Punjab over the past two years, and Babbar Khalsa International, listed as a terrorist entity in Canada [emphasis added]...

In this handout photo released by the Amritsar District Public Relations Officer on Feb.21, 2018,  Prime Minister Justin Trudeau (R), along with his wife Sophie Gregoire Trudeau (L), daughter Ella-Grace (2nd L) and son Xavier (2nd R) pose for a family photo as they pay their respects at the Sikh Golden Temple. HANDOUT / AFP/Getty Images

In this photograph released by the Amritsar District Public Relations Officer on February 21, 2018, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau (L) meets with Punjab Chief Minister Amarinder Singh in Amritsar. HANDOUT / AFP/Getty Images

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on February 23, 2018, 10:04:44
Prime Minister Trudeau, himself, but more directly his team, the PMO ~ Butts, Purchase, Telford et al ~ have failed, massively on both the domestic political and international/diplomatic level.

Canada has, since 1948, had something of a special relationship with India ... St Laurent and Pearson and Nehru and Krishna Menon were famous for their cooperation and close consultation in trying to defuze the cold war. St Laurent and Pearson persuaded Truman and Atcheson and Eisenhower and Dulles to accept Menon's "non-aligned" movement and to be extra patient while India developed, slowly one must admit, into the world's greatest democracy. Given what I saw of Prime Minister Modi's ( remarks at his joint press conference with Prime Minister Trudeau, it appears that Canada was sent home with an ever so polite warning to stop associating with Sikh separatists ... I didn't detect a shred of goodwill in Modi's welcoming tweet (sent five days after Trudeau arrived) or in his remarks to Trudeau. Canada is just a small country that came to look for access to India's huge and growing market and was sent away, empty handed.

The prime minister emerged as a bit of a global laughing stock for his "Mr Dressup" routine, but the Atwat affair raised serious questions about the honesty of his pledge to Punjab leader Amarinder Singh ( that Canada supported Indian national unity. Trudeau's attendance at a Khalsa Day parade in Toronto in April 2017 is what lies behind his strained relations with India. While people like Jason Kenney took pains to distance Canada from Sikh extremists (, Trudeau blundered into their trap and India, at the highest levels, was shocked and offended.

The Trudeau plan, to use this trip as a source of photos for the 2019 campaign also backfired ... those pictures will get used, I think, but mostly in Conservative campaign adds mocking the PM for insulting India and being ridiculed by the world.

The Indians are also worried about Trudeau's seemingly single minded quest for a free trade deal with China. Now, let me be clear, I favour a free(er) trade deal with China ... I favour free(er) trade with everyone. But China is not the only market that matters and, anyway, Xi Jinping sent Trudeau packing without a hoped for deal because he (Trudeau) was a bit too "uppity." And that came after Trudeau managed to offend Australia, Japan and the Philippines on one short trip.

India is emerging as a major global power ... in 25 years it may rival China. Canada needs good relations with India. Team Trudeau has failed, miserably, at achieving an important, strategic goal. It will take years, and I suspect, a new government, to set things right
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: CloudCover on February 23, 2018, 16:26:52
ERC, do you think Canada could likely also do just as well without having anything to do with India, period?  I've been there, worked there, wouldn't want to do it again.  China is not so bad, really.

Is it possible that Trudeau went there for so long because he is running away from the issues at home, does it appear that he and his inner circle lack the competence to deal with substantially in manner that is in the best interests of the entire population.  Perhaps, to make it worthwhile, he have spoken with the government in India* about their experiences with legal use of cannabis over the post 4000 years, the "trip" (no pun intended) might have productive and the local garb more appropriate.   

The controversies about India are a heaven sent diversion for Trudeau helping him to avoid serious domestic governance.     
Agreed on all the rest though.   

* for an uncanny resemblance to the current Canadian government see the Wikipedia entry on the 1893 Indian Hemp Drugs Commission and the "... The report the Commission produced was at least 3,281 pages long, with testimony from almost 1,200 "doctors, coolies, yogis, fakirs, heads of lunatic asylums, bhang peasants, tax gatherers, smugglers, army officers, hemp dealers, ganja palace operators and the clergy."  Except for the clergy part, replace that with a 4 or 5 letter acronym or something with a #.   :o
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on February 23, 2018, 16:38:39
India might almost make RCAF new fighter procurement look good (further links at orginal):

India Upends Its Single-Engine Fighter Competition and Will Also Consider Twin-Engine Jets
Lockheed Martin led the existing competition with its F-16IN Viper, but will now likely face Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet and France's Rafale.

ndia has reportedly halted its plans to purchase nearly 115 single-engine fighter jets in order to reassess its requirements and open the tender up to twin-engine designs. The decision will delay purchases of any aircraft for at least two more years and will have significant ramifications for Lockheed Martin, which increasingly appeared to be the favorite with its F-16IN Viper under the existing terms, as well the Indian Air Force.

On Feb. 23, 2018, The Times of India first revealed the new course of action, citing anonymous sources, which Indian online outlet also reported afterwards. The competition, which could have been worth up $18 billion, has already been going on since 2016 with Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN, an advanced India-specific version of the company’s F-16 Block 70, and Saab’s Gripen-E being the only two contenders. This tender followed another failed deal to purchase new fighters that had collapsed the year before.

“The original plan placed an unnecessary restriction on only single-engine fighters, which limited the competition to just two jets [the F-16IN and Gripen-E],” an unnamed individual told The Times. “The aim is to increase the contenders and avoid needless allegations later.”

Exactly what potential allegations this individual might have been referring to is unclear. But India has struggled to procure new fighter jets over the past two decades and Indian authorities are undoubtedly keen to avoid a repeat of the failed Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft competition, also known as the MMCRA or MCRA.

That tender, which could have been worth approximately $20 billion and formally began in 2007, had been open to all fighter jet designs, regardless of engine configuration. India picked France’s Dassault Rafale, a twin-engine fighter, as the winner, but the actual contract quickly became mired in disputes over local production or assembly of the planes and India finally backed out completely in 2015.   

Reopening the tender to twin-engine fighters will almost certainly mean that many of the former MMRCA contenders will submit new offers. The most likely entrants will be American manufacturer Boeing with its F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon, and one or more Russian aircraft, such as the MiG-35 Fulcrum or Su-35 Flanker-E.

Broadening the competition would definitely make a certain amount of sense. After protracted negotiations, India is on track to acquire 36 Rafales for the country’s Air Force as part of limited, interim purchase. The first of those fighters are supposed to arrive some time in 2019, but the deal remains mired in controversy.

The Indian Navy is also in the market for new jets to embark on its upcoming fleet of new aircraft carriers. Super Hornet, Rafale, the MiG-29K, all twin-engine designs, as well as a single-engine navalized Gripen-E known as Sea Gripen, are presently competing for that contract.

In 2016, the service rejected a proposal to purchase a carrier-borne version of the notoriously under-performing indigenously developed Tejas fighter jet. It is also reportedly increasingly unhappy with the performance of its existing Russian-made MiG-29Ks.

Having Air Force and Navy units flying the same aircraft, or similar variants with a high commonality between airframe components and mission systems, could help reduce logistics and other sustainment costs. It could potentially help offset any higher costs associated with operating a twin-engine versus a single engine design, as well.

Boeing and Dassault seem most poised to benefit from the changes to the competition's requirements. As noted already, India is already in talks to buy dozens of Rafales and the navalized version of aircraft has a well established service record of carrier operations with the French Navy...

This rebooted competition could upend the partnerships that both Lockheed Martin and Saab had announced with local firms as part of their bids for the existing contract. In June 2017, Lockheed Martin had announced a particularly attractive arrangement with Indian industrial consortium Tata, stating that if its F-16IN won it would establish a shared production line in the country to make the jets for the Indian Air Force and use that assembly line to build additional aircraft for export elsewhere [emphasis added]. It was also considering working with Tata to build F-16 components even if the contract fell through, though.

But whatever happens and whatever benefits there are to be had from reframing the competition, the Indian Air Force is unlikely to be thrilled at the prospect of having to wait at least two more years for the jets. The service first identified a requirement for nearly 130 modern fighters in 2001 [emphasis added]...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on February 23, 2018, 16:56:55
ERC, do you think Canada could likely also do just as well without having anything to do with India, period?  I've been there, worked there, wouldn't want to do it again.  China is not so bad, really.

Is it possible that Trudeau went there for so long because he is running away from the issues at home, does it appear that he and his inner circle lack the competence to deal with substantially in manner that is in the best interests of the entire population.  Perhaps, to make it worthwhile, he have spoken with the government in India* about their experiences with legal use of cannabis over the post 4000 years, the "trip" (no pun intended) might have productive and the local garb more appropriate.   

The controversies about India are a heaven sent diversion for Trudeau helping him to avoid serious domestic governance.     
Agreed on all the rest though.   

* for an uncanny resemblance to the current Canadian government see the Wikipedia entry on the 1893 Indian Hemp Drugs Commission and the "... The report the Commission produced was at least 3,281 pages long, with testimony from almost 1,200 "doctors, coolies, yogis, fakirs, heads of lunatic asylums, bhang peasants, tax gatherers, smugglers, army officers, hemp dealers, ganja palace operators and the clergy."  Except for the clergy part, replace that with a 4 or 5 letter acronym or something with a #.   :o

My take, worth exactly what I'm charging you in consultant fees  ::) , is that Xi Jinping is taking China in directions that may not be in Canada's better interests, and that even if we do ~ as I think we should ~ make a free(er) trade deal with China, we still want India as a counterbalance. In fact, I think everyone wants India to counterbalance China and I don't think anyone else, maybe not even the USA, can do that.

The worst thing, for everyone, is a failing India; so it is in our interests to do what (relatively little) we can to help India grow and prosper and remain a stable democratic bulwark against Chinese ambitions in Asia.

I'm also serious when I guess that India might match and even overtake China in a quester century ... China has to wrestle with some domestic, traditional demons, just as India does, but India has some advantages ~ institutions ~  that China still needs to discover, let alone build.

I take your points that China, today, looks a lot better than India ... I haven't been to India for a decade and when I was there I was dealing with some, relatively, elite people who shared pretty much all of our North American/Western European outlooks and values. I have, in these pages, talked about my admiration for the Chinese school system but I was blown away by what I saw in a couple of India's technical universities.

My  :2c:
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on March 01, 2018, 16:47:08
So Indian Air Force not looking at F-35A after all?

Not approached Lockheed Martin for buying US F-35 fighter jet: IAF chief BS Dhanoa
IAF Chief BS Dhanoa has said that no such request for procuring the American F-35 Lightning II aircraft has been made to the US.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has categorically rejected reports that it has approached global US defence contractor Lockheed Martin for a classified briefing on F-35 Lightning II muti-role fighter jets.

Reacting to reports, IAF Chief BS Dhanoa said that no such request for procuring the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II aircraft has been made to the US.

''Americans have not been officially approached for a briefing on the F-35, ''IAF Chief Dhanoa was quoted as saying by the Indian Express.

The clarification from Dhanoa came at a time when IAF is already down to 31 squadrons of fighter aircraft against an authorisation of 42.

In view of IAF's fast depleting fleet, the Centre is expected to go for a government-to-government deal to get the next set of fighters.

However, any decision on buying the next set of fighter jets will be taken only after considering several factors like financial considerations, especially when budgetary provisions are limited for any big-ticket procurement by the Defence Ministry.

The report also quoted sources as saying that the proposal to buy and make a single-engine fighter was taken two years back on multiple considerations, including its cost [emphasis added]

Importantly, the cost of a single-engine fighter is significantly lower than that of a double-engine fighter like Rafale.

Also, the cost of operating a single-engine fighter is much less than that of a double-engine fighter.

An early decision in this regard would have certainly come as a big relief to the IAF and helped it build up its fighter strength, along with the induction of HAL-built indigenous Tejas fighter aircraft.

The government later decided to scrap the proposal for a single-engine fighter because it felt that it would result in a single-vendor situation, which would not be acceptable in the current political environment...

Indian procurement really has a rather Canadian ring to it, eh?

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on March 15, 2018, 13:01:16
More on make-in-India Super Hornet in running for Indian Air Force fighter competition:

India eying Boeing's Super Hornet in latest twist to air force procurement

Boeing Co, considered the frontrunner in the race to supply the Indian navy with new fighter jets, is now in contention for a much bigger $15 billion order after the government abruptly asked the air force to consider the twin-engine planes.

Until recently, Lockheed Martin Corp’s F-16 and Saab AB’s Gripen were in a two-horse race supply at least 100 single-engine jets to build up the Indian Air Force’s fast-depleting combat fleet.

Both had offered to build the planes in India in collaboration with local companies as part of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s drive to build a domestic industrial base and cut back on arms imports.

But last month the government asked the air force to open up the competition to twin-engine aircraft and to evaluate Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet, a defense ministry source said. That jet is a finalist for the Indian navy’s $8 billion to $9 billion contract for 57 fighters.

The defense ministry plans to within weeks issue a request for information (RFI), the first stage of a procurement process, for a fighter to be built in India. The competition will be open to both single and twin-engine jets, the official said, but both Lockheed and Saab said they had not been informed about the new requirements.

The latest change of heart is a major opportunity for Boeing, whose only foreign Super Hornet customer so far is the Royal Australian Air Force...

It also illustrates how dysfunctional the weapons procurement process and arms industry are in the world’s second-most-populous country [emphasis added]. The need for new fighters has been known for nearly 15 years, but after many announcements, twists and turns, the country’s air force has only three-quarters of the aircraft it needs...

France’s Dassault Systemes SE’s Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon and Russian aircraft are also potential contenders under the new requirements, the air force source and industry analysts said.

Admiral Harry Harris, the head of U.S. Pacific Command, told the U.S. House Armed Services Committee last month that India was considering the stealthy F-35, among other options. But the Indian air force said no request had been made to Lockheed for even a briefing on the aircraft[emphasis added]...

One wonders how the speed of this process will compare with the RCAF's fighter farce.


Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on March 15, 2018, 13:10:27
Meanwhile might not be a bright idea to get involved in a land fight with the PLA in, say, the Himalayas (pity our serving GoFos can't speak so frankly--along with the reports of our Commons' committees):

Indian Army says its equipment is obsolete and not ready for war
A series of deep budgetary cuts has eroded the Indian Army's war fighting capabilities, the Vice-Chief has told Parliament

In its direst warning to India’s Parliament yet, the Indian Army’s top brass stated that deep budgetary cuts have severely eroded its capabilities to fight a war.

“The budget of 2018-19 has dashed our hopes and most of what has been achieved has actually received a little setback,” Vice-Chief of Army Staff, Lieutenant General Sarath Chand, told Parliament’s standing committee on defense.

His views have been published in the 42nd report of the standing committee, ironically headed by a Member of Parliament from the ruling Bharatiya Janta Party (BJP) and an army veteran. Major General B. C. Khanduri, who retired from the army more than a decade ago, is a former minister and the Chief Minister of the state of Uttarakhand from the BJP. This report is the most strident criticism of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s security polices and comes at a time when India faces dual challenges from China and Pakistan. The report was released on March 14.

The report focusses on the ‘capital budget’, which is meant for new acquisitions and the modernization of the Indian military. All three services – the Army, Navy and Air Force – present their cases to the Standing Committee twice a year, before Parliament approves the demand for grants. While the Standing Committee’s work is only recommendatory in nature, it is the only connection the military has to present its case to Parliament.

Shocking deficit

While the Indian Army has stated on record that 68% of its war fighting equipment is obsolete, the report has an even more disturbing fact. “Every year the military has to allocate a large part of its capital budget to pay for old and ongoing projects. This is known as the ‘Committed Liability.’ The actual amount left for new purchases is about 10% to 12%. But this year we have noticed that the Indian Army is actually facing a deficit,” a member of the committee told Asia Times on condition of anonymity. The budget, which was presented by Finance Minister Arun Jaitley on Feb. 1, has allocated less than even the ‘Committed Liability’ for past projects. “This is shocking,” the member said.

Former military chiefs agree that this has never happened before...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on March 15, 2018, 14:20:58
And to add to Indian Air force (and maybe navy) fighter procurement confusion--is F-35 in fact in the picture after all?

U.S. Pacific Command Boss Mentions Potential Sale Of F-35 To India
It would be the first official statement regarding the U.S. potentially selling F-35s to India.

Just as India's once again hits the reset button on its premier fighter aircraft procurement program and becomes ever more disillusioned with Russia's 5th generation fighter offering, the head of U.S. Pacific Command has supposedly stated that he supports the sale of F-35s to India. This would be the first official admission that such a possibility is even on the table, although The War Zone has long suspected this would be the case.

First reported on by, during a recent House Armed Services Committee hearing USPACOM boss Admiral Harry Harris Jr. is quotes as stating the following:

    “At the moment, India is considering a number of U.S. systems for purchase, all of which USPACOM fully supports: the F-16 for India’s large single-engine, multi-role fighter acquisition program; the F/A-18E for India’s multi-engine, carrier-based fighter purchase; a reorder of 12-15 P-8Is; a potential purchase of SeaGuardian UAS; MH-60R multi-role sea-based helicopter; and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter... 

    ...India will be among the U.S.’s most significant partners in the years to come due to its growing influence and expanding military. As a new generation of political leaders emerge, India has shown that it is more open to strengthening security ties with the U.S. and adjusting its historic policy of non-alignment to address common strategic interests. The U.S. seeks an enduring, regular, routine, and institutionalized strategic partnership with India. USPACOM identifies a security relationship with India as a major command line-of-effort...

    ...USPACOM will sustain the momentum of the strategic relationship generated by the POTUS-Prime Minister-level and the emerging 2+2 Ministerial Dialogue through strengthening our military-to-military relationship and working toward additional enabling agreements to enhance interoperability...

    ...Over the past year, U.S. and Indian militaries participated together in three major exercises, executed more than 50 other military exchanges, and operationalized the 2016 Logistics Exchange Memorandum of Agreement (LEMOA). Defense sales are at an all-time high with India operating U.S.-sourced airframes, such as P-8s, C-130Js, C-17s, AH-64s, and CH-47s, and M777 howitzers.”

The potential confirmation comes after India has denied that they are interested in the F-35, or that they have been briefed directly on the program. But rumors of background talks about the possibility of purchasing the stealth fighter have persisted...

India's need for fighters that can operate from land and from ships, with catapults and without, could prove to make the F-35 especially enticing, as the Indian MoD could use all three variants in the coming years.

Obviously tight export controls would have to be part of any F-35 deal with India, and it is very unlikely that technology transfer or major industrial offsets would be included in a purchase. But India could buy other aircraft, even the F-16 Viper or F/A-18 Super Hornet, or something from another country, to accomplish those goals. So an F-35 purchase would be a longer-term strategic play, with the possibility of industrial offsets and technology transfer occurring much farther down the line...

Crikey.  How many types of fighters might the Indians end up operating?

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on March 19, 2018, 16:45:49
Lots here that might resonate with Canadians--excerpts:

India is more secure than we fear, and our political leaders are smarter than we concede
Politicians must be made to understand that defence expenditure is like an insurance premium on national security, so defence budget needs to be boosted.

The Army’s submission to the parliamentary standing committee on defence [see recent post] has brought public attention momentarily back to the narrative of “our defence budget is inadequate”. Sage analysts made the point that with so much of our defence equipment falling into the vintage category, India is certainly in no position to fight the two-front war that the armed forces have been directed to prepare for.

The question is: who thinks India will fight a two-front war?

Defence officers and security analysts do, as they should. The political leadership – past, present and, I dare say, future prime ministers – do not. In fact, going by their actions, you can conclude that they do not think national security is a big problem at all. Over and above the purely political task of winning elections and staying in power, the public issues they are more concerned about are jobs, subsidies and the implementation of social programmes [emphasis added]. Serious politicians across the board agree that achieving high economic growth is the primary national interest.

They believe the borders are reasonably secure, insurgencies are reasonably under control and India is, by and large, safe. Which is why prime ministers don’t meet the service chiefs regularly, care little about foreign intelligence reports, but pay attention to the political parts of domestic intelligence briefings.

At this point, if you are a defence officer or a security analyst, you are likely to say that the political leaders “don’t get it”. You are likely to look down on politicians for caring more about the next election than about the two-front war that you are concerned about.

But seriously, it is those who believe a person can get to the top of the political heap by being insensitive to real issues that need a strong reality check. P.V. Narasimha Rao, H.D. Deve Gowda, I.K. Gujral, Atal Bihari Vajpayee, Manmohan Singh and Narendra Modi might have different political styles and ideological persuasions, but every single one of them packed an astute, political sense of national priorities. Looking at the view from the very top, it is unlikely that they saw or see defence and national security as something to lose sleep over.

...Because political leaders aren’t too concerned about national security, our military capacity is falling short of what might be necessary to defend ourselves against potential threats in the future. Frequently, military officials and analysts try to draw attention to defence needs by showing how India is underprepared for a two-front war right now. But the prime minister doesn’t think this will come to pass, so he probably privately rolls his eyes when he hears this. It’s easier for him to use diplomacy to avoid getting into a situation that could escalate to a war, than invest political capital in military modernisation. The ghost of Bofors still haunts New Delhi.

So we need a new, different way of making the case for defence reform and bigger defence budgets. One way forward would be to impress on the political system that defence expenditure is like an insurance premium on national security — that it is best to buy insurance when we are young and healthy. You buy additional insurance for additional risks that might arise in the future. You must do whatever you can to stay healthy, but get adequate insurance to cover you in case something bad happens...

Nitin Pai is director of the Takshashila Institution, an independent centre for research and education in public policy.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on March 28, 2018, 14:32:25
Surprising--and could upset US quite a bit:
India ready to accommodate China in South Asia, but there's a red line China shouldn't cross: Report

 (MENAFN - NewsIn.Asia) New Delhi, March 28 (Indian Express): A senior Indian government official told The Indian Express: 'The days when India believed that South Asia was its primary sphere of influence and that it could prevent other powers, such as China, from expanding its own clout are long gone.

'India cannot claim sole proprietorship of the region. We can't stop what the Chinese are doing, whether in the Maldives or in Nepal, but we can tell them about our sensitivities, our lines of legitimacy. If they cross it, the violation of this strategic trust will be upon Beijing.'

In its exclusive story, The India Express said: "India has told China it will not intervene in the Maldives but it expects China to reciprocate India's 'strategic trust' by not crossing certain 'lines of legitimacy.'

The two countries are sizing each other up in the aftermath of the Doklam crisis last year when they faced off on the Himalayan plateau.

'The days when India believed that South Asia was its primary sphere of influence and that it could prevent other powers, such as China, from expanding its own clout are long gone,' a senior government official told The Indian Express.

'India cannot claim sole proprietorship of the region. We can't stop what the Chinese are doing, whether in the Maldives or in Nepal, but we can tell them about our sensitivities, our lines of legitimacy. If they cross it, the violation of this strategic trust will be upon Beijing,' the official said.

Despite some harsh words about India during his election campaign and his overtures to China, the new Nepalese Prime Minister K.P.Oli is making his first foreign trip to India — and Delhi is taking some comfort on that score.

Foreign Secretary Vijay Gokhale is expected to travel to Sri Lanka and Bangladesh soon.

Sources said he will not go to the Maldives, despite Maldivian President Abdulla Yameen's messages of peace.

But the senior government official pointed out that the Doklam crisis is an opportunity for both India and China to re-evaluate each other, notwithstanding the widening economic differential between them.

Embarking on a 'reset' of its relationship with Beijing in the run-up to the meeting in June between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Chinese President Xi Jinping on the margins of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) meeting — this includes tamping down of its public affection for of its public affection for the Dalai Lama as well as visits to Beijing by Defense Minister Nirmala Sitharaman and External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj in the coming weeks — it is clear that Delhi expects Beijing to reciprocate...

Very big hmmm.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on March 28, 2018, 15:17:34
Maybe a very severe Chinese reaction to the incident described in this tweet helps explain the apparent Indian back-down reported just above:

The Indian Interest
‏ @IndianInterest

STUNNING revelation: Around Feb. 22, Indian navy warned Chinese PLAN warships not to approach the Maldives, even fired warning shots, forcing the Chinese fleet to retreat.

Not a word about this in the Indian media!!
According to Indian government sources, China sent several vessels, including missile destroyers, near the Maldives, apparently in response to a Maldivian envoy's visit to Beijing on Feb. 7. Yameen has counted on China for support, including investment, which has proven controversial.

But around Feb. 22, when these ships were around 30 nautical miles from India's vessels, the Indian Navy threatened action -- a warning shot and "war drill" -- if they were to come within 20 nautical miles. The Chinese fleet retreated to the southeast, stopping in waters 276 nautical miles from the Maldivian capital of Male...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on April 07, 2018, 12:38:13
Great headline for our great rival in fighter procurement (note mission profile):

No Breaths Held, India Embarks On New Fighter Building Quest

The Indian government has taken the first step in its latest effort to buy and build new fighter jets in country. The government today published an expected global request for information (RFI), alerting aircraft manufacturers that include all of the six firms that competed for the erstwhile Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contest. The MMRCA, a contest for 126 fighter jets, collapsed without result, was scrapped and replaced with a 2016 contract for 36 Rafale jets. The new contest that tentatively begins today will see the Rafale tentatively compete once again against the five aircraft it faced off with in the MMRCA contest.

With the cancellation in February of India’s proposed single-engine fighter contest, this new prospective competition could pit single and twin engine jets once again at each other. The government stipulates that 85% of the 110 aircraft need to be built in India with a strategic partner, with a total of 75% of the aircraft to be single-seat jets [emphasis added].

To be sure, this RFI document is an all-too-familiar first baby step towards what promises to be a complicated process that remains bereft of clarity on the path forward. If you’re looking for the state of play amidst the mess of questions choking India’s endless effort to buy or build new fighter jets in the country, we said what we had to here. Probably reflecting the Indian government’s need to keep things open, the RFI is expectedly a broadstroked document with a few specifics. Sample this on the jet’s intended roles:


An interesting page in the RFI is this one that hasn’t figured in earlier documents released by the Indian Air Force, depicting desired performance parameters on a typical mission profile:


Expect the original pack of six that competed for the MMRCA to field their wares — albeit with variant tweaks — in this new prospective contest, that doesn’t yet have an official title. Boeing F/A-18 Block III Super Hornet, Lockheed-Martin F-16 Block 70, Saab Gripen E, Dassault Aviation Rafale F3R, United Aircraft Corp. MiG-35 and Eurofighter Typhoon. While the strategic partnership model makes it incumbent on competitors to lock relationships with Indian firms — and all of them have — it remains unclear if India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. will be eligible for consideration as an Indian production partner.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: tomahawk6 on April 07, 2018, 18:15:22
They should just buy the F-35 or sell them the F-15.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: YZT580 on April 07, 2018, 18:50:35
They would definitely not get in-country production or control of software with the F35.  SAAB offered them the best deal with all construction in India but they stalled out on that one.  They are the only country that seems to have more trouble than we do when buying something and that is saying something
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Thucydides on April 13, 2018, 10:42:35
India may be realigning itself with the West against China. Including Japan, Australia and India essentially makes exiting the First Island Chain, the Second Island Chain and transit through the Indian Ocean and the choke points like the Straights of Hormuz and the Straits of Malacca potentially much more difficult for China and the transport of raw materials and export goods to and from China in times of increasing tension:

The Indo-Pacific Quad Confronts China
by Austin Bay
April 10, 2018
U.S. Pacific Command still calls itself PACOM, but it appears INDO-PACOM -- India-Pacific Command -- might be the acronym of the future.

Pentagon and State Department studies now routinely refer to the "Indo-Pacific region," as do the defense and foreign policy papers authored by their counterparts in Japan and Australia.

"INDO" obviously contracts Indian Ocean, equivalent to "PAC." However, Chinese admirals in Beijing detect another implication: the huge nation that dominates that body of water -- India.

To paraphrase Shakespeare's Hamlet, (SET ITAL) aye, there's the rub. (END ITAL)

For China, India is a very large rub. The subcontinent dominates the Indian Ocean. China, seeking to assure a steady supply of raw materials and energy for its expanding economy, has invested heavily in Africa and the Middle East. Tankers carry oil from Sudan and freighters cobalt from Congo to China, passing through waters patrolled by the Indian Navy.

That's the result of long-standing geographic circumstances. However, in the last 25 years, other facts have changed.

As the Cold War faded, a cool aloofness continued to guide India's defense and foreign policies. Indian military forces would occasionally exercise with Singaporean and Australian units -- they'd been British colonies, too. Indian ultra-nationalists still rail about British colonialism, but the Aussies had fought shoulder to shoulder with Indians in North Africa, Italy, the Pacific and Southeast Asia, and suffered mistreatment by London toffs. Business deals with America and Japan? Sign the contracts. However, in defense agreements, New Delhi distanced itself from Washington and Tokyo.

The Nixon Administration's decision to support Pakistan in the 1971 Indo-Pakistani War embittered India. Other issues hampered the U.S.-India relationship. Indian left-wing parties insisted their country was a "Third World leader" and America was hegemonic, etcetera.

However, in the last 12 to 15 years, India's assessments of its security threats have changed demonstrably, and China's expanding power and demonstrated willingness to use that power to acquire influence and territory are by far the biggest factors affecting India's shift.

In 2007, The Quad (Quadrilateral Security Dialogue), at the behest of Japan, held its first informal meeting. The Quad's membership roll sends a diplomatic message: Japan, Australia, America and India. Japan pointed out all four nations regarded China as disruptive actor in the Indo-Pacific; they had common interests. Delhi downplayed the meeting, attempting to avoid the appearance of actively "countering China."

No more. The Quad nations now conduct naval exercises and sometimes include a quint, Singapore.

The 2016 Hague Arbitration Court decision provided the clearest indication of Chinese strategic belligerence. In 2012, Beijing claimed 85 percent of the South China Sea's 3.5 million square kilometers. The Philippines went to court. The Hague tribunal, relying on the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea treaty, supported the Filipino position that China had seized sea features and islets and stolen resources. Beijing ignored the verdict and still refuses to explain how its claims meet UNCLOS requirements.

That is the maritime action. India and China also have mountain issues. In 1962, as the Cuban Missile Crisis diverted world attention, the two Asian giants fought the Indo-Chinese War in the Himalayas. China won. The defeat still riles India.

Armed incidents still occur in two sectors where the border is disputed. One is in the east, the India-Bhutan-China border "trijunction," and one in the west, near the junction of the China-Pakistan-India border.

By the way, China supports Pakistan in its nuclear-armed cold war with India. India says Chinese rhetoric vis-a-vis the Himalayan disputes echoes its intransigent positions regarding the South China Sea.

The Quad would be a fearsome foursome. The decision lies in New Delhi.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on April 13, 2018, 11:45:29
It is all well and good for India to make temporary common cause with e.g. Australia, Japan and the USA to try to "contain" China but seems, to me, highly unlikely that India sees any of the other three "quad" members as anything more than useful "fair weather friends," to be used in a competition that may last for centuries.

India, like China and like the somewhat more amorphous West is one of the world's great "civilizations," as Sam Huntington used that word ( India has an immense population, an ancient and sophisticated culture and, potentially, a bright future as a great power ~ at least a great regional power. That it bumps up against China, with an equally immense population and an equally impressive past and potential future, creates problems that can either be addressed productively, for both, or otherwise.

My own, very personal sense, is that India is still looking for its own, unique, place in the world order. It saw itself, fifty or sixty years ago as the leader of a non-aligned group of nations when America and the USSR led two antagonistic factions. At the time Indians, like Nehru and Menon, seemed bemused by China's alliance with Russia and, of course that alliance came apart and I doubt that the current Sino-Russian "friendship" and cooperation is anything more than tactical and transitory, at least in so far as Xi Jinping is concerned.

India and China must either work out a mutually acceptable modus vivendi or, eventually, fight it out to see who dominates the Indian Ocean. My guess is that neither Xi nor Modi thinks that war is an acceptable choice ... not in their lifetimes, anyway. Each sees his country as needing far more time and resources to accomplish their overarching strategic aims ... which might be more compatible than many analysts think.

My, again very personal assessment (wild guess may be a much better phrase), is that, for now, anyway, since about the year 2000, China's rise has been, largely, at America's expense and India has not been unhappy with that. India, like China, sees Asia as being for the Asians ~ Australia and New Zealand are harmless outposts of the liberal West and serve as a constant reminder of the notion that the West is not Asia's natural friend or ally. The West came to conquer and to colonize, not to cooperate.

India has a whole hockey sock full of problems ... but it is the world's greatest democracy. When, not if, in my opinion, it gets it's act together it will also be one of the world's great powers ... along with China and ...?
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on April 21, 2018, 13:23:17
India says bye bye to Su-57 (maybe hoping for F-35 some day?):

India withdraws from FGFA project, leaving Russia to go it alone

Key Points

    India has pulled out of its 11-year collaborative programme with Russia to build a Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft
    The decision has ramifications for both the IAF and the Russian aerospace industry

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has shelved its 11-year old collaborative Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) programme with Russia following enduring differences over its developmental cost and technological capabilities.

Senior Indian officials, including National Security Adviser Ajit Doval and Defence Secretary Sanjay Mitra, recently informed a visiting Russian ministerial delegation that India was withdrawing from the programme, official sources told Jane’s on 20 April.

The Indian officials are believed to have stated that the IAF could, at a later date, ‘revisit’ the FGFA project or alternatively acquire the fully developed platform once it had been inducted into the Russian Air Force, but did not elaborate [emphasis added].

Industry officials said the FGFA project, in which India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was the lead developmental agency, also did not feature in talks during Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman’s visit to Moscow in early April.

“The FGFA project had become an instance of too little, too late,” said military analyst and retired air marshal V K Bhatia. To pursue it any longer would not have served the IAF interests in any way as it struggles to make up fast-depleting fighter numbers, he added.

The IAF believes that the Sukhoi Su-57 (T-50 PAK-FA) fighter, which India’s Ministry of Defence (MoD) designated the Perspective Multi-Role Fighter, does not meet its requirements for stealth, combat avionics, radars and sensors. Seven FGFA prototypes are currently undergoing flight-testing in Russia, but for now there is no indication as to when the platform is likely to enter series production.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on May 02, 2018, 15:26:19
The problems besetting Indian defence spending and procurement (China in mind)--some graphics missing:

India Joins World's Top Five Defense Spenders, Surpassing France

    Beijing spends far more on military than any other Asian power
    Worldwide military spending 2.2 percent of global GDP: SIPRI

India has joined the U.S. and China as one of the world’s five biggest military spenders, reflecting geopolitical tensions as well as the country’s reliance on imported weapons and sprawling personnel costs.

New Delhi’s defense spending rose by 5.5 percent to $63.9 billion in 2017 and has now passed France, the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute said in a report released Wednesday.

Worldwide military spending rose marginally last year to $1.73 trillion, or roughly 2.2 percent of global gross domestic product, the group said. The list of the world’s biggest military spenders has remained consistent in recent years, dominated by the U.S. and China, which spent $610 billion and $228 billion respectively, according to SIPRI [see here: ], which researches global arms spending.

However, the group said the balance of military spending is "clearly shifting" toward Asia, Oceania and the Middle East, driven largely by spending increases in China, India and Saudi Arabia.
Arms Race

China spends far more on its military than any other power in Asia.

Beijing’s share of worldwide military expenditure rose to 13 percent in 2017 from just 5.8 percent in 2008, according to SIPRI. The Chinese government has increased spending 8.5 percent per year between 2007 and 2016 and its leaders "seem committed to increases in defense spending for the foreseeable future, even as China’s economic growth slows," according to a U.S. Department of Defense report on China’s military.

In India’s case, however, increased spending doesn’t mean the armed forces are deploying state-of-the-art equipment. The rise in defense spending mostly goes toward salaries and pensions for roughly 1.4 million serving personnel and more than 2 million veterans, said Laxman Kumar Behera, a research fellow with New Delhi’s Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses.

"Because so much money is consumed by manpower costs, there isn’t enough left over to buy equipment," Behera said.

India’s own army echoes that sentiment. Vice-Chief of Army Staff Lt. Gen. Sarath Chand told a parliamentary committee in March the current budget barely accounts for inflation and tax payments. Only 14 percent goes toward military modernization compared to 63 percent for salaries, Chand said.
Paycheck Problems

India's armed forces spend so much on salaries there's not enough for buying new equipment

SIPRI previously ranked India as the world’s largest arms importer because its domestic defense manufacturing industry remains curtailed by red tape, a reliance on state-owned defense companies and procurement delays.

Faced with geopolitical threats from Pakistan and China, Prime Minister Narendra Modi has tried to boost domestic defense production with his ‘Make in India’ program.

Made in India?

Since Modi took power in 2014, defense procurement from Indian vendors actually declined

Source: India's Ministry of Defence; figures from a response to a parliamentary question

Yet Ministry of Defense data released in response to a parliamentary question show that procurement from Indian vendors has declined since 2014 -- when Modi came to power -- while procurement from foreign vendors increased slightly. Overall equipment procurement also dipped, the data show.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: tomahawk6 on May 02, 2018, 18:45:46
India would be a helpful ally to counter Chinese ambitions.They have a common border and a decent Navy.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: CBH99 on May 02, 2018, 22:25:41
I think if India wants to stay relevant militarily, it's going to have to do what a lot of other countries have had to do....cut manpower, but really focus on professionalizing it's forces.

I'm not suggesting Indian military forces are unprofessional.

However, if we look at Russia or China in the last 15 years, they've cut manpower and refocused their efforts on making sure the smaller force is better trained, better equipped, and more responsive.  I think India has to follow suit, it doesn't really have any other options.

It also needs to unf**k it's procurement.  It's the Canada of the East.  It can't buy new equipment in a simple, timely fashion for the life of it, and spends a ton of money on project offices that in the end, aren't able to introduce any new capabilities/equipment.  (It's air force has a ton of examples, as does it's army.)

Having them as an ally would be incredibly useful and handy.  I believe they already are for the most part, and should have been our focus rather than Pakistan in the first place.   :2c:
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: Colin P on May 17, 2018, 13:39:22
India needs a larger army as it has to likely fight a 2 front war, plus it it has to be able to put down internal revolts at the same time. Not to mention employment opportunities. Changes to the army structure has often not gone over well there.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on May 22, 2018, 17:21:38
US currying favour with India, sending warning shot across PLA Navy's bows in Indian Ocean (and name will not please Paks):

Indo-PACOM? Pentagon may rename US Pacific Command

The Pentagon may soon be announcing a new name for its largest area of operations, with a change to Indo-Pacific Command to “better encapsulate the responsibilities the command currently has,” Pentagon spokesman Army Col. Rob Manning said Monday.

The unexpected discussion that U.S. Pacific Command may be getting re-named came after a reporter’s question at a briefing Monday.

“I want to ask about the change of name from Pacific Command to Indo-Pacific Command,” the reporter said. “Aside from changing signs, what implications would it have?”

“There’s no announcement on the change of Pacific Command,” Manning said. “What I will tell you is, that as you know, the significance of any name change is to better characterize the responsibility.”

Congress is pushing for increased focus on China’s activities in the Indo-Pacific and the 2019 defense bill includes several provisions to counter Chinese influence there...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: CBH99 on May 23, 2018, 03:41:08
US currying favour with India, sending warning shot across PLA Navy's bows in Indian Ocean (and name will not please Paks):


Screw the Pak's, India should have been the focus of our economic & military alliances from the start.  While they weren't an Iran, they are still a nuclear power & far from a stable country.  Even calling them a friendly country is debatable.
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on May 29, 2018, 14:49:03
US belief, pushed hard under Obama too, that India could be turned into something like a real US ally (e.g. by supply of up-to-date weaponry) was always a pipe dream.  India's basic policy is tous azimuts (save for China)--do not want to be beholden to anyone.  Hence is part turn to US arms no not over-reliant on Russkies:

India, Russia team up to overcome US sanctions on defense deals

India and Russia have pledged to jointly create a plan to resolve U.S. sanctions on Russia that is hampering defense deals between New Delhi and Moscow.

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Russian President Vladimir Putin decided to formulate the plan during a May 21 informal summit in the Russian city Sochi.

The U.S. law, Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act, or CAATSA, is negatively affecting defense business with Russia, according to an official with the Indian Ministry of Defence, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

“It is an extremely complex issue and has direct consequences on defense supplies from Russia, but Indian government will ensure that [defense] ties are not with Moscow,” the official said.

Notably mum about the impact of CAATSA on Russian defense deals, the Indian Ministry of External Affairs released a statement May 21 saying: “The two leaders agreed that the special and privileged strategic partnership between India and Russia is an important factor for global peace and stability. The two leaders also reiterated the significance of longstanding partnership in the military, security and nuclear energy fields and welcomed the ongoing cooperation in these areas.“

Russia and India maintain a high strategic level of partnership with close cooperation between the two countries defense ministries, Putin said. “Our Defence Ministries maintain very close contacts and cooperation. It speaks about a very high strategic level of our partnership,” he said, according to TASS news agency.

The U.S. principal deputy assistant secretary of state for political-military affairs said Friday in Washington that U.S. allies should consider the law, under which any significant purchase of military equipment from Moscow would attract American sanctions.

“CAATSA is a feature, and we need to take it seriously. The (Trump) administration is always bound by U.S. law. This is a U.S. law. I’m hoping that not just India, but all of the partners that we engage with will understand that we will have to evaluate any potential large defense purchase from Russia seriously because that’s what the law demands of us,” Tina Kaidanow told reporters.

Earlier this month, Modi dispatched top Indian officials to Moscow to find solution to the U.S. sanctions on Russian defense companies that are doing business in India.

Nearly 65 percent of Indian weaponry is of Russian origin, an Indian MoD official noted, and so sanctions could impact the supply of spare parts.

Indian Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman visited Moscow in April to speed up the procurement of new weapons worth more than $10 billion...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on June 03, 2018, 15:41:21
India vs. China in SE Asia--note US Pacific Command now "Indo-Pacific Command":

With ports, ships and promises, India asserts role in Southeast Asia


    India cemented its diplomatic and security ties across Southeast Asia in a clear challenge to China.
    Indian foreign ministry officials said there was a strong element of self-interest in New Delhi's efforts to secure open access to the Malacca Strait

SINGAPORE: Almost lost in the din of the upcoming US-North Korea summit + and fresh tension between Washington and Beijing last week, India cemented its diplomatic and security ties across Southeast Asia in a clear challenge to China.

It's not clear just how far New Delhi will take these relationships, given years of promise, and a general election due in 11 months that could be a distraction for Prime Minister Narendra Modi. And if India is already rattling China, it won't want to spark open confrontation.

But Modi took several concrete foreign policy and security steps in Southeast Asia in recent days.

He signed an agreement with Indonesia to develop a port in the city of Sabang that would overlook the western entrance to the Strait of Malacca, one of the world's busiest waterways, and agreed a pact with Singapore on logistical support for naval ships, submarines and military aircraft during visits.

Modi also flew to Kuala Lumpur + for a late-scheduled call on Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad, who won last month's general election, effectively cementing ties with three of the most influential Southeast Asian nations.

On Friday [June 1], Modi told the Shangri-La Dialogue in Singapore + , Asia's premier defence forum, that India would work with the Association of South East Asian Nations (ASEAN) to promote a rules-based order in the Indo-Pacific region.

"We will work with them, individually or in formats of three or more, for a stable and peaceful region," he said in the keynote speech at the forum.

Several delegates, including US Defense Secretary Jim Mattis, voiced support.

At the end of the forum on Sunday, Singapore Defence Minister Ng Eng Hen said: "I am sure many countries are delighted that India has indicated its firm commitment to the region."


The term "Indo-Pacific" has grown in usage across diplomatic and security circles in the United States, Australia, India and Japan in recent years, shorthand for a broader and democratic-led region in place of "Asia-Pacific", which some people have said places China too firmly at the centre.

In a nod to India's growing regional stature, the US military's Pacific Command in Hawaii formally changed its name to the US Indo-Pacific Command in a ceremony on Wednesday [May 30, emphasis added].

Despite an outward show of friendship between China and India, and Modi's comments about the strong relations between them, Beijing gave a distinctly cool response to his strategy...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on June 04, 2018, 12:44:45
Meanwhile on Indian nuke-capable missile front:

India successfully test-fires nuclear capable Agni-5

India today successfully test-fired its indigenously developed nuclear capable Long Range Ballistic Missile Agni-5 with a strike range of 5,000 km from Dr Abdul Kalam Island off the Odisha coast.

The surface-to-surface missile was launched with the help of a mobile launcher from launch pad-4 of the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Dr Abdul Kalam Island in the Bay of Bengal at 9.48 am, defence sources said.

This was the sixth trial of the state-of-the-art Agni-5. The missile covered its full distance during the trial which was a total success, they said...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on June 25, 2018, 13:59:08
What now for Kashmir and Indo-Pak relations? Dicey situation:

As Modi cuts it loose, Kashmir is about to get even worse. Yes, that’s possible
Now that a Ramadan ceasefire has ended in the trouble-torn region, a bloody government crackdown looms with an eye on elections

India’s insurgency-ridden Jammu and Kashmir province is tipped to enter one of its most violent phases as Prime Minister Narendra Modi has pulled his Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) out of a local coalition government to prepare the ground for a crackdown ahead of the next general election in 2019.
Doklam dispute keeps Sino-Indian relations ‘challenging’, ambassador tells Hong Kong

BJP cites rising terrorism, Islamist radicalisation and growing threats to life and free speech as its reasons to withdraw from the coalition with the People’s Democratic Party (PDP). The decision took even PDP leader and Chief Minister Mehbooba Mufti off guard, as it was a sudden shift from the national party’s earlier stand that Modi’s prudent policies had weakened anti-India forces in Kashmir. The Muslim-majority region, together with Hindu-majority Jammu, constitutes the Jammu and Kashmir province. Kashmir has for decades been in the throes of popular protests for autonomy that New Delhi says are aided by neighbouring Pakistan.

Amid rising street protests, Modi’s BJP-led federal government in New Delhi announced a unilateral Ramadan ceasefire but refused to extend it, against the wishes of the PDP. The ceasefire was called off two days after the assassination of a senior editor and peace activist Shujaat Bukhari. The state’s top police officer told leading television channel NDTV that anti-terror operations put on hold during the ceasefire were being scaled up. Elite commandos have also reportedly been flown in as New Delhi prepares for, what English-language newspaper The Telegraph terms “Mission Krushmir”...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on June 27, 2018, 21:44:10
Why India has a tous azimuts (China and Paks aside) policy:

US abruptly scraps talks with India amid growing differences


    The India-US '2+2 dialogue' was to be held on July 6
    This is the second time that the 2+2 dialogue has been scrapped after an earlier effort to get them going in March had to be “postponed”

The United States on Wednesday abruptly scrapped much-anticipated high-level talks with India amid growing differences between the two countries, partly stemming from a chaotic administration in Washington where New Delhi is clearly not a priority country anymore.

US officials are said to have conveyed to their Indian counterparts that talks between the US defense secretary and secretary of state and their Indian opposites, scheduled for July 6 in Washington, are being “postponed” due to “unavoidable reasons.”..

This is the second time that the 2+2 dialogue has been scrapped after an earlier effort to get them going in March had to be “postponed” when then secretary of state Rex Tillerson was fired by President Trump. The current defence secretary Jim Mattis too is on a dicey wicket -- according to Washington scuttlebutt – with a President who is charitably described a mercurial.

The postponement comes amid wide differences between Washington and New Delhi, including threat of sanctions against India on two fronts: If it goes ahead with the anticipated purchase of S-400 missile system from Russia, and if it does not end oil purchases from Iran...

The two sides also have serious differences on trade and tariff issues, particularly after President Trump elevated a trivial matter of tariff on Harley Davidson motorcycles worth less than $5 million into a signature issue, including repeated public smackdown of India.

Both issues have exasperated New Delhi, which is loath to give up its long-time friends and its economic interests to please a whimsical country that changes its policy frequently, sometimes on account of its domestic politics, and often on the basis of misrepresentation.

The immediate reason for nixing the July 6 talks is not known but it has also become increasingly apparent that India is not a priority country for an administration that is barely coherent in its foreign policy except to say “America first.” The President has dissed almost all US allies across the world, from neighbouring Canada and Mexico to distant Australia and South Korea, with the European Union in between, at the expense of pandering to strongmen such as North Korea’s Kim Jong-un and Russia’s Vladimir Putin.

In fact, one possible explanation for scrapping the talks with India is the administration’s focus on setting up a Trump-Putin summit, possibly on July 15 in Vienna. Trump’s National Security Advisor John Bolton is in Moscow to do the spadework, and the President’s minions are expected to trip over each other to work on a relationship that is clearly a priority item for Trump.

Rather much of the world fill in your answer.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 01, 2018, 16:59:22
Will be interesting to see how much US is willing to concede in its effort (which will not succeed) to try and turn India into effectively an American ally:

India-US Military Communications Pact: US team in Delhi next week, India demands five assurances
As per sources, the biggest roadblock in the negotiations is India’s demand for a clause which explicitly states that Indian sovereign law takes precedence over COMCASA.

As both India and the US aim to make a firm announcement about the signing of Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement (COMCASA) during the ‘2+2’ meeting on September 6 in New Delhi [SecDef Mattis and SecState Pompeo supposed to be there], there are five major issues of contention being negotiated between the two sides.

Official sources told The Indian Express that a team of US officials from its Hawaii-based Indo-Pacific Command will be in Delhi on August 6 and 7 to conduct final negotiations on the text of the pact. The Indian side during these negotiations will comprise officials of External Affairs Ministry, Defence Ministry and armed forces.

The negotiations have proceeded at a fast pace once the Indian side expressed its willingness earlier this year to sign the pact which is meant to provide a legal framework for transfer of communication security equipment from the US to India that would facilitate “interoperability” between their armed forces.

Sources said while New Delhi is keen to have the agreement signed during the ‘2+2’ meeting, the US side seems content if the text is frozen and a concrete announcement about COMCASA included in the joint statement issued at the end of the meeting.

As per sources, the biggest roadblock in the negotiations is India’s demand for a clause which explicitly states that Indian sovereign law takes precedence over COMCASA [emphasis added]. Indian officials argue that such a clause was part of the India-US nuclear deal negotiated by the UPA government and there is no reason why Americans can’t make the same concession now.

US officials contend that if a new government in India passes a ‘sovereign’ law which overrides COMCASA at a later stage, it defeats the purpose of signing the agreement. They told Indian interlocutors that such a clause is not required as Indian government can always cancel COMCASA after giving a notice period, besides having the option of amending it at any stage. Besides sovereignty, three major points of negotiations are about assurances India wants included in the text of the agreement.

The first is an assurance that the American side won’t use the access it gets to the military communications system for spying on India [emphasis added, would not be confident in any such pledge]. The second is about the misuse of control equipment, as it is part of proprietary American network, which can be used by US military against Indian forces. The third assurance being sought by New Delhi is that the US government should not switch the whole equipment off or shut the Indian military network down as part of a policy decision...

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: CBH99 on August 01, 2018, 21:14:46
Can someone please remind me - in all seriousness, as I'm genuinely confused - why the US still supports the Pakistanis with military aid, and ignores ISI activities supporting regional terror groups...yet gives India such a hard time? 

One of the worlds largest populations.  Strategically located.  Isn't firing artillery over the Pakistani/Afghan border at coalition forces, or funneling weapons & funding to the Taliban....yet the US is "just now" trying to bring India onboard as an ally? 
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 01, 2018, 22:01:40
Because Pakistan is the problem from hell--needed for supplies to Afstan plus effort to limit (pretty fruitless) help for Taliban, nuclear and risk of war with India (which India is also to blame for)--no easy policy solutions:


The War That Will Not End
The C.I.A. and America’s Secret Wars in Afghanistan and Pakistan


Pakistan’s Tac Nukes and India’s “Cold Start” Attack


How Pakistanis Remember Partition of India and Events Leading Thereto


Hindu Raj? PM Modi, the BJP and Hinduism (and Islam)

And then of course there is Muslim-majority Kashmir which India keeps, quite brutally at times.  Very problematic between the two countries all-in-all, and how to deal with them.

Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: CBH99 on August 02, 2018, 05:09:36
For the internal problems India may have, I can't say they are better or worse than Pakistan's.  Just different.

On the surface however, India does project the image of being more stable, safer, more strategically relevant to the west's goals, and less problematic in terms of regional goals (i.e., Afghanistan.)

Both are nuclear capable, yes.  So 50/50 on that. 

If Pakistan wasn't required to resupply coalition forces via land routes, would we still be trying to win them over after 17yrs of clearly playing both sides?
Title: Re: India (Superthread)
Post by: MarkOttawa on August 15, 2018, 15:20:47
India getting close to missile big leagues, note also SLBMs:
Agni-V set to be inducted by December after one more test
The missile, which completes India’s missile portfolio, underwent its penultimate pre-induction test in June and was expected to be inducted by next year.

Agni-V, India’s long-range ballistic missile with a range of 5,000-5,500km will undergo one more pre-induction test, perhaps as soon as October, and be inducted into the country’s strategic arsenal shortly after, before the end of the year, s