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Air-Force.ca => Aircrew Trades => Topic started by: dan_282 on April 06, 2007, 00:57:49

Title: electronic warefare moc
Post by: dan_282 on April 06, 2007, 00:57:49
Ive read that the newly appointed 'top aces' consulting uses electronic warefare officers for their private contracted missions.

Does anyone have more info concerning this trade, like the numbers of guys doing this?

Or if they are NCM, or Commissioned such as intelligence and communication officers?

I realize the Navy has electronic warefare experienced trades, but id imagine these guys are in the Air Force?


Id assume these positions are few and far between, just looking at moc possibilities..thanks
Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: RiggerFE on April 06, 2007, 02:16:27
The guys you are referring to are navigators, mostly specialised people left over from the T-Bird and Challenger EW days. I believed we called them EWOs. They were pretty specialized in there jobs, most have move on to regular Nav jobs or retired, but there are still a few who do the job.
Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: aesop081 on April 06, 2007, 05:14:55
The guys you are referring to are navigators,

Most of the guys teaching EW at CFSAS are NCMs ....not navigators these days...AESOPs to be exact, One WO and one SGT along with a USAF EWO
Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: h3tacco on April 06, 2007, 11:26:31
Hopefully crazylegs will chime in here because I am pretty sure he is a EWO with CATS.

CATS has nothing to do with CFSAS so the fact that AESOPs are teaching EW there isn't really relevant. As previously stated the CF EWOs wilth CATs are ANAV by trade. It is a second tour position (ie most complete one operational tour MH, LRPA, or AM). It basically took over from what the guys were doing at 414 and 434 before they disbanded. Once selected you attend a four monthish long EW course in at Randolph AFB in Texas and then are posted to either to Halifax or Victoria where the CATS guys are located. After your tour you are supposed to return to your original community as a EW expert. I am sure there are some guys left over from the old EWO days but I also know a number of guys/gals that are new to the program within the last couple years without previous EW experience. I have also heard a rumor that hey are going to take around 8 students a year from CFANS for the next couple because the OTUs are backed up. Apparently these guys will do a first tour EWO position and then move onto another community. Again just a rumour. I have also heard that CATs will move from Halifax and Victoria and everybody will be based in Ottawa. Not sure if or when this is going to happen. Again hopefully crazlegs can jump in here and correct anything I have said.
Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: Jammer on April 06, 2007, 11:30:53
MODS.
Suggest we lock this one.
Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: aesop081 on April 06, 2007, 11:55:56
Hopefully crazylegs will chime in here because I am pretty sure he is a EWO with CATS.

CATS has nothing to do with CFSAS so the fact that AESOPs are teaching EW there isn't really relevant. As previously stated the CF EWOs wilth CATs are ANAV by trade. It is a second tour position (ie most complete one operational tour MH, LRPA, or AM). It basically took over from what the guys were doing at 414 and 434 before they disbanded. Once selected you attend a four monthish long EW course in at Randolph AFB in Texas and then are posted to either to Halifax or Victoria where the CATS guys are located. After your tour you are supposed to return to your original community as a EW expert. I am sure there are some guys left over from the old EWO days but I also know a number of guys/gals that are new to the program within the last couple years without previous EW experience. I have also heard a rumor that hey are going to take around 8 students a year from CFANS for the next couple because the OTUs are backed up. Apparently these guys will do a first tour EWO position and then move onto another community. Again just a rumour. I have also heard that CATs will move from Halifax and Victoria and everybody will be based in Ottawa. Not sure if or when this is going to happen. Again hopefully crazlegs can jump in here and correct anything I have said.

Yeah, sorry was mixing up a few things. 

We had one Nav recently posted for this

MODS.
Suggest we lock this one.

Why ?
Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: crazyleggs on April 06, 2007, 14:43:14
h3tacco is well informed.  Cannot confirm nor deny some of his info but I can tell you this:
- EWOs are ANAVs.  MOSId 00182.
- Majority of our current composition is of "new" EWOs (persons on their second + tour without previous EW experience).
- Once selected, you attend the USAF Combat Systems Operators course in Randolph AFB for 4 months.
- Then conduct the OTU for Alpha Jet conversion and EW equipment training.  This lasts 2-3 months depending on flight schedule.
- EWOs fly in combat support role only for AF/Navy/Army.
- Very challenging job and environment.  Extremely dynamic.
- EWOs will return to their original community as EW SMEs.
- Best flying there is for ANAVs (my opinion, I'm sure some will disagree)

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: dan_282 on April 06, 2007, 21:19:52
thanks for the info guys..take it easy on the abbreviations lol

do all ANAVS goto Randolph, or just the ones doing EW training? any word on the training/flying canadians would recieve there?

also, are the alpha jets located anywhere else other than victoria/halifax?  I realize they are used in 'maple flag', does that mean cold lake has its own set of EW officers?

id imagine this to be the hardest ANAV path to get into? being its the smallest fleet of aircraft..


Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: SeaKingTacco on April 07, 2007, 21:57:36
Quote
thanks for the info guys..take it easy on the abbreviations lol

do all ANAVS goto Randolph, or just the ones doing EW training? any word on the training/flying canadians would recieve there?

also, are the alpha jets located anywhere else other than victoria/halifax?  I realize they are used in 'maple flag', does that mean cold lake has its own set of EW officers?

id imagine this to be the hardest ANAV path to get into? being its the smallest fleet of aircraft..

In answer to your questions:

Only EW Navs attend the EW Course in Randolph.  Last that I saw, it was ground-based, theoretical trg only.

The majority of EW Navs are currently located in Halifax/Victoria, with some in Ottawa.  Those more in the know than me have indicated earlier in this thread that that may change.  The aircraft are not CF owned, therefore they live wherever the contractor wants them to live between missions.  Don't know if any EW Navs live permanently in Cold Lake- don't have access to the Nav posting data base at home  :)

My impression over the last couple of years has been that it is not especially difficult get to into the EW Nav world (ie- continual solictation messages for people to volunteer).  That said, you have to remember that EW Navs in Canada don't have a "wartime" role per say- they currently exist to enhance the trg of the Army, Navy and Air Force by simulating attacking enemy forces.  It therefore pays to understand the operational realities of your customer.  This is something that may be difficult for any (hypothetical at this point) Pipeline EW Nav if they do not have an operational first tour to fall back on.

Clear as mud?
Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: dan_282 on April 19, 2007, 17:11:57
yes, this is good information guys..thanks

I wonder what a recruiter would know about this..

So you cant join as an EW NAV, uve gotta be a navigator allready, and request EW training?

If so, how long would you have to be a NAV in advance?
Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: HFXCrow on April 19, 2007, 17:26:15
go AIR NAV==>Get posted to CFEWC say as the Ops O==> then you will be practically guaranteed to be a EWO in either HFX or Vic
Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: CTD on April 19, 2007, 19:32:31
Yes they have that in Cold Lake also.
Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: h3tacco on April 19, 2007, 19:43:44
Dan just to clarify you have to do at least one operational tour (four-fiver years) as a ANAV in one of three communities (Herc, Aurora or Sea King) before you can become an EWO. Once you are an EWO you will normally do one tour (four-five years) then return to your original community.  If you consider a minimum of two years of training (mayber three) before you are at an operational  squadron it will be at least six years before you can become an EWO.  As far as I know there are no EWO posting to Cold Lake right now. Just Victoria, Halifax and Ottawa.
Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: Good2Golf on April 19, 2007, 20:14:32
You can also be an EWO by appointment (and appropriate/endorsed CF and OST training), at unit, wing or formation/command level where 000182-ANAVs may not exist.


G2G
Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: Buddha66 on April 20, 2007, 18:05:34
Very little value added IMHO.  200lbs of self loading baggage on the A-jet = less onsta time and slower max speed.  Put the ON / OFF switch up front and you get the same results.   ;D

Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: HFXCrow on April 21, 2007, 08:28:13
Agree, its  the responsibility of the units be shined on to let the EWO know through a message the results of the runs & training value.
Good , bad or ugly

Well said
Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: crazyleggs on April 30, 2007, 14:32:25
Very little value added IMHO.  200lbs of self loading baggage on the A-jet = less onsta time and slower max speed.  Put the ON / OFF switch up front and you get the same results.   ;D


You forgot the extra 1000 lbs of equipment we bolt on to the hardpoints.  Plenty more detrimental to aircraft performance than our fat arses.
Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: HFXCrow on April 30, 2007, 17:38:31
disagree! No pods , who cares.

What are you going to say to the ship via voice...."Missile inbound"--EW operators just pretend!

just more wasted $$$

Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: Buddha66 on April 30, 2007, 17:46:49
Having been on the boat, the emitter pods that simulate enemy radars work very well, and provide excellent NESOP training.  What is not required is the dead weight in the back seat to turn them on and off.  As for the jamming pods, they never really provided much training value IMHO, so having an EW "expert" turn them on and off is also a waste of a couple hundred pounds.  Not to mention the extra hassle of dealing with the EWOs.  The CATS guys are great to work with cause their motto is "will fly for food" vice the NAV union's mentality.
Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: crazyleggs on April 30, 2007, 19:41:33
disagree! No pods , who cares.

What are you going to say to the ship via voice...."Missile inbound"--EW operators just pretend!

just more wasted $$$


Having been on the boat, the emitter pods that simulate enemy radars work very well, and provide excellent NESOP training.  What is not required is the dead weight in the back seat to turn them on and off.  As for the jamming pods, they never really provided much training value IMHO, so having an EW "expert" turn them on and off is also a waste of a couple hundred pounds.  Not to mention the extra hassle of dealing with the EWOs.  The CATS guys are great to work with cause their motto is "will fly for food" vice the NAV union's mentality.

Nice.  Beautifully written trash talk from uninformed sources.

I suggest you do your research before spewing your expert opinion on someone's way of life.

Feel free to PM me if you have anymore useful information.
Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: HFXCrow on April 30, 2007, 22:11:27
sorry didnt mean to hurt your feelings..outta here
Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: BobSlob on March 03, 2008, 09:30:29
Just a heads up regarding this topic.

My CFRC Officer in Halifax (ANAV himself) told me that due to the Auroras not being upgraded, some ANAVs are being pulled right from training for EW.
Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: aesop081 on March 03, 2008, 10:32:41
Just a heads up regarding this topic.

My CFRC Officer in Halifax (ANAV himself) told me that due to the Auroras not being upgraded, some ANAVs are being pulled right from training for EW.

It is true that some navs are going from CFANS to the EWO job BUT......tell your CFRC officer that the Auroras are indeed being upgrade to AIMP block 3 ( 10 aircraft).
Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: BobSlob on March 03, 2008, 13:22:42
That's great news, as that's the airframe I want to be posted on =D
Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 07, 2008, 02:40:19
On the NCM side, are 081'rs that are posted to CFEWC considered part of this "EW MOC"??
Title: Re: electronic warefare moc
Post by: aesop081 on April 13, 2008, 22:30:51
On the NCM side, are 081'rs that are posted to CFEWC considered part of this "EW MOC"??

No