Author Topic: Afghan Detainee Mega Thread  (Read 253563 times)

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Offline Nerf herder

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Re: Canadian troops struggle with prisoner policy
« Reply #75 on: June 03, 2006, 17:16:23 »
But Gen. Gauthier said there is no risk that ordinary soldiers or junior officers could face war-crimes charges, even if detainees handed over to the Afghans were tortured or killed.

Not talking about what the General said....what you are saying is completely against the GC and if you were to do something like you have stated...

You'd be standing in front of 12 without your head dress.

Now as to what the General said...the troops can't be held accountable if they hand them over to the ANA.

However, if they do knowing full well that the prisoners would be tortured or executed...well, you see the difference.

As such the troops on the ground did the correct thing.

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Offline ArmyRick

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Re: Canadian troops struggle with prisoner policy
« Reply #76 on: June 03, 2006, 17:29:50 »
If the NDP get in charge then these captured taliban would probably be allowed to come to Canada, apply for refugee status, get free benefits, sue the CF for "aggressive detainment" and eventually become members of the NDP (as one of our MPs in 2012?)..

Sad thought.
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Offline bilton090

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Re: Canadian troops struggle with prisoner policy
« Reply #77 on: June 03, 2006, 17:32:25 »
If the NDP get in charge then these captured taliban would probably be allowed to come to Canada, apply for refugee status, get free benefits, sue the CF for "aggressive detainment" and eventually become members of the NDP (as one of our MPs in 2012?)..

Sad thought.
You got that right on !
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Re: Canadian troops struggle with prisoner policy
« Reply #78 on: June 03, 2006, 19:17:51 »
As long as we have a standing agreement negotiated by our government with the Afghan government, there is no "struggling".

You catch someone you suspect as being Taliban, you follow the SOP and turn him over to the Afghans, US, MPs, whoever you are ordered to. If the Canadian public has a problem with it, take it up with whoever negotiated the agreement. If Pte. Bloggins has a feeling that the detainee will be shot, he is more than welcome to add his observation to the patrol report once he returns to the base.

We turned all manner of foreign troops over to their domestic governments (Germany, Japan) knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that they would be treated to show trials and hung or shot - it was no big deal sixty years ago, and it is no big deal now.

I think that you would be pretty hard pressed to make a case against a Canadian soldier if he followed orders and SOPs, turned the detainee over to the representative of a democratically elected government and the detainee died or was executed in their care.
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Offline Zarathustra

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Re: Canadian troops struggle with prisoner policy
« Reply #79 on: June 03, 2006, 21:23:22 »
A problem with summary execution is they are very scary for the average civilian. He will wonder if this could happen to him. Someone could accidentally confuse him with a bad guy or someone could threatened him and execute him if he doesn't obey, claiming he was a bad guy. Execution after fair trial feels much more secure for the average civilian because he doesn't feel this could be him. To build trust and respect for the government and the law, I would try to avoid summary executions.
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Offline paracowboy

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Re: Canadian troops struggle with prisoner policy
« Reply #80 on: June 03, 2006, 22:04:12 »
To build trust and respect for the government and the law, I would try to avoid summary executions.
not to mention the fact that we are working to develop A-stan into a modern nation with a firm grasp of democratic representation and the Rule of Law, with attendant checks and balances to ensure fairness. Summary executions are antithetical to this.
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Re: Canadian troops struggle with prisoner policy
« Reply #81 on: June 04, 2006, 00:06:25 »
We turned all manner of foreign troops over to their domestic governments (Germany, Japan) knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that they would be treated to show trials and hung or shot - it was no big deal sixty years ago, and it is no big deal now.

Which show trials were those? Where Germans shot and hung their own people?
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Offline pbi

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Re: Canadian troops struggle with prisoner policy
« Reply #82 on: June 04, 2006, 09:42:38 »
The answer here is obviously to attach a protocol to our current agreement with the Afghan Govt, bringing it more into line with the one the NL forces have. Should be no problem with that, if the Afgh govt wants to continue to be seen as "progressive" by the West.

The answer is NOT to descend to the same level of behaviour that we have worked so hard to get away from as a professional Army: if you think we have public support problems now, just wait...

Cheers
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Offline FormerHorseGuard

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Re: Canadian troops struggle with prisoner policy
« Reply #83 on: June 04, 2006, 11:39:19 »
i am sure the big problem is mostly  the media who are making a story look bigger then it really is. if i was over there I am sure i would be wondering what  happened to the guy  i turned over to the locals. executions on the spot or in the field are a dirty job, sometimes they are required. I remember reading about the picture of the officer in Vietnam shooting the guy in the streets during the Tet (spelling) offensive and how the media thought it was a morally wrong thing. One story I read had the officer shooting the spy because they caught him with weapons and was fighting soldiers of the government , and the person was not wearing a uniform and that meant he was a spy.

Treat of caputured Taliban is difficult due to the fact there is no rules of warfare being followed on both sides. You cannot have one side playing by the rules and the other side not and have it all nice and ruled by the conventions of various meetings.

No uniform,  carrying weapons engaging in combat with uniformed government troops, in my way of thinking makes them spies and my understanding spies can be shot. 

Big thing to remember that is not North America or Europe, it is a land that has had its own rules of war going back many many years and those rules are never going to change. Western standards are not enforced or wanted there. They have their own code and western soldiers are going to have to grow some thicker skin and so is the media.

At the same time i do not think any Canadian soldier should consider shooting any captured person because the Afghan Government troops do it.
Follow the agreement set up and report what  you saw and your gut feelings as to what  happened or what  you think might happen.

Offline mainerjohnthomas

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Re: Canadian troops struggle with prisoner policy
« Reply #84 on: June 04, 2006, 12:01:07 »
Our troops are doing it right already.  We are fighting in Afghanistan, and for Afghanistan.  That means that we are trying to help the Afghan people adjust to the rule of law.  We will hand our prisoners over to Afghan authorities for trial and punishment under Afghan law for crimes committed in Afghanistan.  Obviously, part of helping the Afghans adjust to the rule of law means keeping them from shooting anybody out of hand, and not turning anybody over when the locals blood is up, and due process seems to be in short supply.  If Afghan justice is not what the Taliban face, then we are an occupying power, not an ally of the Afghan people.
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Offline bilton090

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Re: Canadian troops struggle with prisoner policy
« Reply #85 on: June 04, 2006, 12:41:33 »
:salute: The last 2 post have been BAG ON !
              IN my past post's I did not say! that Canadian Troop's should execute "POW'S  ;) ;), But I said was if you fallowed SOP's, took names on the hand over,
and not given them to a mob, not standing there when they do it !, If you hied shoots report it.
              Spy's are still able to be shoot, Situ. on the gound will dictate !
 
      What some people were saying is the Political & somewhat Legal side of things,
           But I'll will not be crying a tear for them, But a hi 5,

             SPELL CHECK DIDN'T HELP! SORRY
« Last Edit: June 04, 2006, 14:56:23 by bilton090 »
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Offline JackD

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Re: Canadian troops struggle with prisoner policy
« Reply #86 on: June 05, 2006, 02:36:40 »
The big reason and one not mentioned yet about the idea of following correct procedure is the soldier's own mental health - ummm - bear with my reasoning here - you do things right it is easier to live with yourself when you are older. Regulations on prisoner handling and procedures on prisoner handling are there not only for the prisoner's safety, but also for a soldier's mental health. A professional soldier is a soldier, not an executioner, and we are soldiers part of our lives, we are human beings all of our life...

Offline mainerjohnthomas

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Re: Canadian troops struggle with prisoner policy
« Reply #87 on: June 05, 2006, 08:49:55 »
The big reason and one not mentioned yet about the idea of following correct procedure is the soldier's own mental health - ummm - bear with my reasoning here - you do things right it is easier to live with yourself when you are older. Regulations on prisoner handling and procedures on prisoner handling are there not only for the prisoner's safety, but also for a soldier's mental health. A professional soldier is a soldier, not an executioner, and we are soldiers part of our lives, we are human beings all of our life...
     Well said.  Some of what we must do and see is terrible, but necessary; that is a burden we all bear.  To allow what is terrible, and unnecessary leaves us a burden that may be too much to bear.
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Offline JackD

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Re: Canadian troops struggle with prisoner policy
« Reply #88 on: June 05, 2006, 11:14:05 »
the curse of Bosnia for many - particularly for the Dutch...

Offline pbi

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Re: Canadian troops struggle with prisoner policy
« Reply #89 on: June 06, 2006, 09:54:28 »
FormerHorseGuard:

I am a bit confused by your position. First you say

Quote
Treat of caputured Taliban is difficult due to the fact there is no rules of warfare being followed on both sides. You cannot have one side playing by the rules and the other side not and have it all nice and ruled by the conventions of various meetings.

then, later, you say:

Quote
At the same time i do not think any Canadian soldier should consider shooting any captured person because the Afghan Government troops do it.
Follow the agreement set up and report what  you saw and your gut feelings as to what  happened or what  you think might happen.

So, which is it?

Your first statement is wrong: Canadian troops are following the Law of Armed Conflict and are guided by the spirit, if not the exact letter, of the Geneva Conventions applying to persons captured in war. Whether we like it or not, there is no real possibility that we will revert to illegal methods. We've been that route, and our Army paid a very heavy and painful price for  years as a result. We have learned that we have to operate within the law, or we will be no better than occupiers.

Cheers
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Offline FormerHorseGuard

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Re: Canadian troops struggle with prisoner policy
« Reply #90 on: June 06, 2006, 12:51:14 »
I am sure the big problem is mostly  the media who are making a story look bigger then it really is. if i was over there I am sure i would be wondering what  happened to the guy  i turned over to the locals. executions on the spot or in the field are a dirty job, sometimes they are required. I remember reading about the picture of the officer in Vietnam shooting the guy in the streets during the Tet (spelling) offensive and how the media thought it was a morally wrong thing. One story I read had the officer shooting the spy because they caught him with weapons and was fighting soldiers of the government , and the person was not wearing a uniform and that meant he was a spy.

Treat of caputured Taliban is difficult due to the fact there is not the same  rules of warfare being followed on both sides. You cannot have one side playing by the rules and the other side not . It woudl be great if both sides had the same rules to follow but it is not the case. Canadians have one set of written rules the other side does not have any written rules.

No uniform,  carrying weapons engaging in combat with uniformed government troops, in my way of thinking makes them spies and my understanding spies can be shot.

Big thing to remember that is not North America or Europe, it is a land that has had its own rules of war going back many many years and those rules are never going to change. Western standards are not enforced or wanted there. They have their own code and western soldiers are going to have to grow some thicker skin and so is the media.

At the same time i do not think any Canadian soldier should consider shooting any captured person because the Afghan Government troops do it.
Follow the agreement set up and report what  you saw and your gut feelings as to what  happened or what  you think might happen.


I did not mean to imply  or ahve anyone think i was implying that Canadian Troops did not follow the rules of engagement set by higher HQ and did not imply that Canadians were not following the various treaties and conventions on rules of warfare.

Offline Exarecr

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Afghan Detainee Mega Thread
« Reply #91 on: February 06, 2007, 06:34:36 »
The CBC once again has a mission in life. Watching the news this morning the CBC announcer discribbed with what seemed the usual glee that the incident occur ed last year and the  information was obtained through the freedom of information act. You would think listening to the reporting of the accusations that this event was a consealed and every day occurrence. Makes my blood boil. Any thoughts folks?




Edited by Vern to correct typo in Topic Title.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2007, 13:36:23 by Bruce Monkhouse »

Offline milnews.ca

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Re: CAN Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #92 on: February 06, 2007, 07:04:54 »
- edited 060717EST Feb to add Toronto Star, CTV.ca coverage -

Military investigates claim detainees abused
Civilian agency also wants answers after allegations at least one Afghan was beaten

Paul Koring, Globe & Mail, 6 Feb 07
Article Link - Permalink to both articles

The Canadian military has launched an investigation into allegations of detainee abuse by soldiers in Afghanistan, The Globe and Mail has learned.  Spokesperson Major Luc Gaudet confirmed Monday that the military began its probe last week after being informed that the Military Police Complaints Commission — a civilian body formed to investigate complaints against the military — had received a request for an investigation into the treatment of several detainees. The commission is expected to decide within days whether to launch its own probe — a “public interest investigation” — into the allegations.  At least one, and perhaps three, Afghan detainees “taken captive by the Canadian Forces appears to have been beaten while detained and interrogated by them,” alleges Amir Attaran, a University of Ottawa law professor, in a letter sent to the commission.  The allegations are based on documents obtained by Mr. Attaran under the Access to Information Act outlining injuries in the cases.  The Globe and Mail has examined the military documents obtained by Mr. Attaran that refer to injuries sustained by detainees while in Canadian custody last April ....


Ottawa silent on fate of captured terror suspects
No accounting for scores of detainees that have been handed to Americans, Afghans

PAUL KORING, Globe & Mail, 6 Feb 07
Article Link

Scores of terrorist suspects captured by Canadians have disappeared into the murky netherworld of Afghan and American prisons, but Ottawa refuses to say what has happened to them or even if it knows whether any have been tried, charged, or released, or how they are treated.  According to a Canadian Forces log of detainees, 40 had been handed over by April, 2006. From a review of a heavily excised and incomplete set of military police documents, it seems that several dozen more have been captured and handed over to Afghan police since then.  But Canada's Expeditionary Forces Command, headed by Lieutenant-General Michel Gautier, who oversees all Canadian Forces deployed abroad, refuses to account for terrorist suspects captured since May 1, 2006.  Some have apparently been freed by the Canadians who determined -- in a process not made clear -- that they didn't deserve to be handed over to the Afghan police. However, there is no accounting for them either, only the terse notations "fit for release" on medical forms.  Others, dubbed "fit for transfer," disappear into Afghan prisons. Once there, there is no further Canadian oversight.  Canada's out-of-sight, out-of-mind approach means detainees are handed over to others as soon as possible, often within hours. Once gone, the Canadian government, in effect, washes its hands of further responsibility or accountability ....



Canadians accused of Afghan abuse
Probe launched into complaints by three detainees in Kandahar

Bruce Campion-Smith, Toronto Star, 6 Feb 07
Article Link

Two separate probes are underway into a complaint that up to three prisoners suffered injuries while in the custody of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan, the Toronto Star has learned.  The allegation, if substantiated, could rock military morale and further undermine public support in Canada's dangerous – and controversial – mission in Kandahar.  Questions are being asked about how as many as three unidentified men suffered injuries to their upper body while being detained by Canadian soldiers in the Kandahar region last April.  And investigators want to know why the military police officers who eventually took charge of the detainees didn't do their own probe of the injuries.  "We have received allegations of mistreatment," Stan Blythe, of the Military Police Complaints Commission, said yesterday. This independent civilian body, responsible for probing reports of misconduct by military police officers, received the complaint of possible abuse last week ....


Military probes allegations of detainee abuse
CTV.ca, 6 Feb 07
Article Link

The military is investigating a complaint that alleges prisoners were abused while in the custody of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan.  At least one, and as many as three, Afghan detainees "taken captive by the Canadian Forces appears to have been beaten while detained and interrogated by them," alleges University of Ottawa law professor Amir Attaran in a letter sent to the Military Police Complaints Commission, an independent civilian body, last week.  The accusations are based on documents that Attaran obtained under the Access to Information Act.  In the documents, there are references to injuries that detainees sustained last April while under the custody of Canadian forces.  Commission chairman Peter Tinsley has notified by letter Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier and Capt. Steve Moore, who heads the military police.  "The complaint suggests various failings by the military police members involved relative to safeguarding the well-being of the persons in custody, and, more particularly, in respect of their failure to investigate the causes of various injuries which may have been sustained while in (Canadian Forces) as opposed to military police custody,'' Tinsley wrote on Jan. 30, reports The Toronto Star ....


« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 07:17:57 by milnewstbay »
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Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: CAN Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #93 on: February 06, 2007, 07:09:56 »
I merged the topic, for ease of reading and posting.

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Offline Brihard

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Re: CAN Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #94 on: February 06, 2007, 09:16:16 »
Oh bugger, here we go...

The sad thing is the actual findings won't matter- the majority of opinions will be based on headlines, and the way they're written implies a lot that's not necessarily there.

We have a few guys who seem to have actively resisted being taken into custody. I suspect many people get the same sort of superficial cuts and bruises when taken into the drunk tank friday night after they try to resist arrest.

But of course, the Globe's gonna jump all over it...
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Offline Roy Harding

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Re: CAN Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #95 on: February 06, 2007, 09:24:56 »
A google search of "Amir Attaran" is revealing.

He comes across as a very intelligent, articulate, forceful, influential, left-wing, bleeding heart liberal.

I hope our Public Affairs people can effectively counter the "spin" that Dr. Attaran is going to bring to this issue.  He appears to be one to be extremely wary of.

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Offline Garett

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Re: CAN Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #96 on: February 06, 2007, 09:52:19 »
Sounds like BS but it has to be investigated.

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Re: CAN Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #97 on: February 06, 2007, 10:08:22 »
It sounds to me that Professor Attaran was looking for the smoking gun indicating Canada's very own Abu Gharib...and lo and behold, he's "found it".  As a couple of posters have pointed out, the feeding frenzy has already started - without a wit of questioning the motives of this individual in filing his "complaint":

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Amir_Attaran
Quote
...and recently having joined with NGOs to criticize Canada's military for failing to protect the rights of detainees they arrest during their mission in Afghanistan, including to expose those detainees to the risk of torture or transfer to Guantanamo Bay

Despite the ICRC giving Canada an "excellent" rating in reporting how we deal with detainees (how much press coverage did that get?).

Garrett:  if you read the press reporting, it has been investigated - by the MPs - but our friend Attaran doesn't feel that the investigation was done properly (translation: didn't arrive at the political conclusion he wants).  Thus he's raised the "issue" to the MP Complaints Commission, based entirely on ATI documents.  I smell a politically motivated witchhunt on his part - all part of an effort to call our involvement in Afghanistan into question.
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Yea, the Glob and spew has a full page spread on allegations that Canadian troops have beaten detainees,not once do they mention the treatment of Western prisoners by Taliban or Iraqi insurgents.

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Re: CAN Investigating Treatment of AFG Prisoners by CF
« Reply #99 on: February 06, 2007, 10:42:30 »
Our friend Steve Staples is on CTV NEWSNET now and guess what? He couldn't wait to mention Somalia.

I thought CTV was a little more balanced than that.