Author Topic: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]  (Read 622693 times)

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Offline vehtech

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #225 on: December 30, 2011, 21:28:11 »
Exactly. Anthing that causes a 66% drop in vr rate has to be at the very least considered very closely. A lot of time and money was spent on these people to this point. Are they all useless or is there a secondary underlying cause. Should the CO of CFLRS changed policy? Not for me to question. Having recruited and trained new employees in the private sector for over 20 years if someone told me changing a policy would reduce people quitting by 30% I would look at it. At 66% I would accept the change even if every fiber in my being was screaming no way in hell.   BTW 66% didn't stay in because they were allowed to use a phone or toy. Life is not that simple.
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Offline RDJP

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #226 on: December 30, 2011, 21:30:30 »
Excellent points, my friend.

Offline vehtech

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #227 on: December 30, 2011, 22:45:45 »
Not private sector. It the military.
Yes of course.
As I said in a previous post on this thread I'm not suggesting altering policies to the hello kitty side. This is to discuss a policy change by a CO. I made an assumption that he took all the life and death stuff into account before making such a policy change. My mention of the private sector was only meant to express that I have a back ground in recruiting, training and retaining staff. Not on my total lack of military experience or of the military itself. In all regards to that end I have yet to be informed of my opinion. :camo:
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #228 on: December 30, 2011, 22:50:58 »
  BTW 66% didn't stay in because they were allowed to use a phone or toy. Life is not that simple.

Actually it can be. Some people just can't handle being disconnected from their "things". An instructor friend of mine told me about a recruit who with 3 weeks left on basic training quit because they had a weekend taken away. I recall him even saying it was not punishment, they were being held the weekend to work on kit.

It's fairly common knowledge among the instructors that the policy is aimed at keeping numbers up and has nothing to do with quality. It's all about the numbers.  If someone quits or fails their trades course who cares, the numbers coming out of basic training are "higher".
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Offline Brihard

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #229 on: December 30, 2011, 22:52:26 »
I spoke with a little birdy.

The 66% greater retention rate (sounds like a big number) turned out to apparently equal 2 troops.
The platoon involved in it was the "warrior platoon".   Electronics were taken away from a platoon of newbies who just started basic training. The platoon of warriors were allowed to keep their electronics, some of whom have been kicking around the system for a year +.
Some people when told they were loosing their electronics, quit. (Are those the kinda soldiers we want defending Canada?)

Quoting this again, because it seems to have been forgotten. Go back and read Grimaldus' posts on this. Now, my fancy education doesn't seem to count for a hell of a lot in the job market, but I know when a 'study' has been horribly botched.

If they wanted to do this properly, here's a thought for how to do the study: For a twelve month period (to account for possible variation in 'time of year'... People quitting because they don't like winter; people getting through easier because of a nice Christmas break, whatever) have one or two platoon at any given time given full personal electronic privileges from day 1 in accordance with such regulations as have been the case after the 'indoc' period. Using that sample, figure out over the course of one year what the VR rate from the couple hundred troops in that sample are. Any troops who VR in that time, have an exit interview with a questionnaire that asks about the influence of personal electronics. When the course graduates, same thing- did the troops in question feel better able to keep on for having access to iToys or Snozzberies and talking to family/friends/stock broker?

For a subsequent twelve month period, simply have the no PED rule aplied as has been the case in the past. Same deal with exit interviews and graduation questionnaires.

This gives you two sample of a few hundred troops, each spanning an entire calendar year (eliminates seasonal variables, if they in fact exist), and your samples were not in CLFRS at the same time- you won't have a sample that is aware of the other, and perhaps resentful/envious thereof. At the end of the day, figure out what the correlated VR rate is, whether there's a difference, and what that difference means in hard numbers.

Yup, it would take two years to do- but so what? Why rush things like this when the difference seems anecdotally to be at best a few troops per platoon, based off a horribly flawed sample?
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Brihard

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #230 on: December 30, 2011, 22:55:30 »
Actually it can be. Some people just can't handle being disconnected from their "things". An instructor friend of mine told me about a recruit who with 3 weeks left on basic training quit because they had a weekend taken away. I recall him even saying it was not punishment, they were being held the weekend to work on kit.

It's fairly common knowledge among the instructors that the policy is aimed at keeping numbers up and has nothing to do with quality. It's all about the numbers.  If someone quits or fails their trades course who cares, the numbers coming out of basic training are "higher".

Yeah... It's not as if there's some magical pool of people who already have BMQ (and more) and who just might be clamouring to get into the regs and could easily make up the lost numbers being discussed here.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #231 on: December 30, 2011, 23:05:09 »
I have a back ground in recruiting, training and retaining staff.

We train people to do things that the civilian world often has a hard time understanding. We demand things of our people that civilian companies cannot fathom. Our leaders have responsibilities for, and power over their people that civilian managers do not. We do not recruit, train and retain like the private sector does because it would not work.

Your experience and background will serve you well one day, but it will take more than 3 weekends of reserve BMQ to temper that with military reality.

Offline RDJP

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #232 on: December 30, 2011, 23:34:24 »
We train people to do things that the civilian world often has a hard time understanding. We demand things of our people that civilian companies cannot fathom. Our leaders have responsibilities for, and power over their people that civilian managers do not. We do not recruit, train and retain like the private sector does because it would not work.

Your experience and background will serve you well one day, but it will take more than 3 weekends of reserve BMQ to temper that with military reality.

You're making it sound like all of that good stuff is out the window now due to the allowance for PEDs during Basic.  Trust me, western civilization its not going to fall because of this choice.

*Insert quote from Socrates about kids these days.......*

Offline Brihard

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #233 on: December 30, 2011, 23:36:31 »
You're making it sound like all of that good stuff is out the window now due to the allowance for PEDs during Basic.  Trust me, western civilization its not going to fall because of this choice.

*Insert quote from Socrates about kids these days.......*

Socrates would have asked *you* what *you* thought about kids these days.  ;D
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #234 on: December 30, 2011, 23:37:58 »
western civilization its not going to fall because of this choice.



Never said it would, with almost 20 years of service, i am sure that i am aware of that. Problems will get sorted out. They will just get sorted out much later than they should and the expense in time and money will thus have been greater. It will just add more work to people who already have plenty and should be concentrating on other things.

That is the real shame in all this.

Offline vehtech

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #235 on: December 30, 2011, 23:39:48 »
CDN Aviator, well said. I fully understand that 3 weekends of BMQ is as green as cadpat and that the military by it's very function must handle things in drastically different ways then the private sector. Hopefully my opinions expressed hear have been at least food for thought. Remember I'm mostly in agreement with you.
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Offline zerosum

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #236 on: December 31, 2011, 00:36:24 »
the military by it's very function must handle things in drastically different ways then the private sector

In 1990 I started with a private company. Three weeks later they sent me to "school". Day 1 of school they had a test on the stuff we had to learn in the first 3 weeks. If you failed (and there were several), you were sent home and fired (like forever), the manager that hired you was given a lot of ****.

After 2 weeks of school you were tested again. If you failed (and there were several), you were sent home and fired (like forever), the manager that hired you was given a lot of ****.

Those that were left, passed the final test ... 2 1/2 months later.

Oddly enough, we were not training for live and death situations.  Crazy as it sounds, I managed with about a 5 minute call a week to my wife (with my infant child).

BTW: In BC the "N" drivers are not allowed to use any electronics (even blue tooth with their cells). Others must use blue tooth. Guess what I see about every 4 or 5 blocks of driving? No problem here folks, move along.

Offline dogger1936

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #237 on: December 31, 2011, 00:37:50 »
So why cater to them ? We're not hurting...........

I agree. However it looks like he was given a task of increasing output and ensuring a lower VR rate and he seems to have done it. I don't like it, dont think it's a good idea or approve....yet here we are.

It's much easier to say yes to everything. Sadly I've been seeing this from all sides an an instuctor a leader during war to 2IC in a unit.

Spending time on facebook, BBM your friends, is not military like. IMHO your there to be tested for 10 weeks in a stressful environment to see if you can handle extreme change in your life, loss of freedoms, connection to family, and being there to work as a team to get through it. I believe we are doing our young soldiers an injustice. As when they get thrown into the field at their units it's a new stress to them that they cant BBM their wifes do their banking etc. In turn you get soldiers who do not grasp the fact that their personal life revolves outside of deployment time.

What happens when these youth are placed into country Sh*thole X and get a 5min SAT phone call once every couple weeks.

And how does this prepare the strongest part of the team...the families. Should we start off by letting them believe little johnny can keep in contact with them all the time?

Not fair to the soldier or his family.

big +1 to Cdn

Offline zerosum

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #238 on: December 31, 2011, 01:07:26 »
However it looks like he was given a task of increasing output and ensuring a lower VR rate and he seems to have done it.

Everyone gets a participant ribbon. Win-win.

Offline dogger1936

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #239 on: December 31, 2011, 01:23:47 »
Everyone gets a participant ribbon. Win-win.

Yup.

Careers before all else.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #240 on: December 31, 2011, 07:26:06 »
This thread is getting tiresome. The decision was made and that's that.

The sky is not falling and the world is still turning. We can debate this til the cows come home. I suggest we cease and desist for a bit.
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aesop081

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #241 on: December 31, 2011, 08:05:23 »
This thread is getting tiresome. The decision was made and that's that.


Then avoid reading it. This is not the first thread about a decision and it won't be the last. If we didn't discuss decisions that were "made and that's that", we could cut the size of this site in, at least, half.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #242 on: December 31, 2011, 10:14:55 »
I agree. However it looks like he was given a task of increasing output and ensuring a lower VR rate and he seems to have done it.

Yet the numbers crunched by another officer indicted that there was an increased release rate after basic due to;
-people quitting
-people failing their trades course
-administrative/discipline releases
-medical releases

So more people are passing basic only to quit for other reasons down the road. 66% more recruits pass basic, the same amount apparently release shortly after for various reasons. 
Still the basic VR rate is decreased so technically in the words of George W Bush, mission accomplished :)

Quote
What happens when these youth are placed into country Sh*thole X and get a 5min SAT phone call once every couple weeks.

They disappear for an hour or two every night with the SAT phone.
Log into facebook to message people that they are doing a river run the next day.
Buy a cell phone in KAF with $900 worth of phone cards and give the ISI types some overtime pay.



1. What happens when yelling is deemed too degrading so instructors are no longer allowed to raise their voice? 
2. Next week nights and weekends are guaranteed. We don't want to stress these guys and gals, basic truly becomes 8-4.
3. Maybe every week the students can get together and assess their staff and if the students don't feel that the staff are instructing them very well passing on all the pertinent information the instructors get placed on a warning system of their own. After 3 bad student assessments the instructor is punted and replaced.

Might sound crazy but if it keeps our young recruits in the system a little longer maybe we should consider it  ;)
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Offline RDJP

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #243 on: December 31, 2011, 11:03:45 »
:argument:


I truly do not believe that this conversation would not have been locked already, if it had been started by more inexperienced forum members.  And some of the participants would be the first on the band wagon, shouting "stop beating the dead horse."

Offline 1984

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #244 on: December 31, 2011, 11:40:04 »
:argument:


I truly do not believe that this conversation would not have been locked already, if it had been started by more inexperienced forum members.  And some of the participants would be the first on the band wagon, shouting "stop beating the dead horse."

 :boring:  Your chip is showing.  However, I agree that this thread has been circling the drain for quite a while now.

Offline ArmyVern

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #245 on: December 31, 2011, 11:43:56 »
Really?? It's policy change ... there's shitloads of threads on this site dealing with policy changes that are open, unlocked and controversial. Do a search.

No more Fitness test for recruits being one amongst a great many others. Us old guys were told then too, it's done; quit whining. We were right. We've now paid people for years while they sat in the fat farm because we just couldn't hold our ground and say, "you're enrolling in the CF, get in shape or we will NOT call you."  ::)

Easy to say, lock it up, it's done. But, really it's not because this policy negatively affects us "old guys" at training establishments further down the cycle and on bases when we have to deal with the youngsters coming into our Units and courses with very high expectations and hopes but very very minimal doses of actual reality as to what every day in the CF is like because they were coddled through their BMQs/BOTP.

So, what is done and over with for the happy little recruits now ... has only just started the nightmare for those of us who will soon deal with sorting out the aftermath of basic courses no longer concentrating on high stress and the military basics.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 11:46:39 by ArmyVern »
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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #246 on: December 31, 2011, 11:46:37 »
:boring:  Your chip is showing. 

Its ok, he was in the reserves for a summer 20 years ago.  ::)

I do agree on one thing. Its done so better just figure out how best to mitigate it for the rest of us down the line. Would be interesting to revisit this in a year or so with site members who teach at trade schools to see how it is going.

Offline Journeyman

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #247 on: December 31, 2011, 11:49:09 »
Easy to say, lock it up, it's done. But, really it's not because this policy negatively affects us "old guys" at training establishments further down the cycle and on bases when we have to deal with the youngsters coming into our Units and courses with very high expectations and hopes but very very minimal doses of actual reality as to what every day in the CF is like because they were coddled through their BMQs/BOTP.

So, what is done and over with for the happy little recruits now ... has only just started the nightmare for those of us who will soon deal with sorting out the aftermath of basic courses no longer concentrating on high stress and the military basics.
Because I cause temper-tantrums when I post in Recruiting threads (or even talk about recruits in other threads, apparently), I'll refrain from commenting, and just say " :nod: "

      ;)

Offline Scott

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #248 on: December 31, 2011, 11:50:20 »
No mod voice here:

I am interested in seeing how this goes seeing as my industry gets a load of ex military types coming in after they leave. And I can't wait to see what happens to the first guy who starts whining offshore because he can't have his iThingies. I actually hope one of them ends up working with me :nod:

I find the whole conversation quite relevant.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 11:53:11 by Scott »
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Offline RDJP

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Re: BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
« Reply #249 on: December 31, 2011, 12:00:42 »
Its ok, he was in the reserves for a summer 20 years ago.  ::)


That's right...obviously unless I'm as seasoned as you in the military, my comments are useless.  ;D

I'm in agreement that we'll have to see how it plays out.  But I still think it's going to be okay, same as the introduction of any other piece of technology over the years.  Sure, things won't be the same....but neither is society, so getting rid of these PEDs for Basic, IMHO, isn't going to improve anything.  Simply need to adapt training to the mindset of the new recruits in order to make sure you have the desired product on the other end.  Personally, if I was an instructor I'd be making a point of nailing people with these PEDs WHEN their use negatively affected their performance.  And if it didn't, let things lie as they are. 

BTW, in regards to your personal attack, being through Basic 22 years ago....if I do get in again (and I stress the IF part), then perhaps I'll have a better view on what Basic is like now with PEDs and how it affects things.  Granted, it will be just a comparison between two Basic courses, where even the difference in instructors and recruits can cause a lot of variance, but I will have the opportunity to see how things have changed over the years.  I\d actually be interested to see how much of a difference there is, and IF (in my opinion only, of course) it is negatively changing things.   ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 12:10:35 by RDJP »