Author Topic: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too  (Read 55715 times)

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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2015, 10:17:46 »
I'm confused a bit about this whole thread. My understanding, being on a RCAF wing, was that the Comd RCN had dictated that all naval personnel, regardless of the environment they worked in would wear NCD's as their dress of day. CADPAT was not even an option. I remember having to order some poor LS to go to clothing stores to get sized and put in their orders. IS this not the case? Doesn't that make any decision about Salt and Peppers mute, seeing as its not the dress of day on most non RCN establishments?

Now I am confused. I was under the impression that the RCN/RCF/CA thing was just renaming the old commands. How, then, did Comd RCN gain the authority to tell members of the CF what to wear when working for another command just because they happen to have been given a Navy DEU when they joined?

I mean, shouldn't what a Master Seaman Supply Tech posted to an Air Base wear be the dress of the day ordered by Comd RCAF, and likely delegated to the base commander? If a Petty officer cook is posted to an Army unit and it goes in the field, should that unit's CO not make arrangement for the cook to get into  CADPAT? And should it not be that  CO's decision - not Comd RCN?

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2015, 10:20:48 »
The person that came up with blue camouflage for sailors, should be taken out, shot, revived and then shot again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5gwfjQEQ84

Offline FSTO

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #52 on: June 12, 2015, 10:26:17 »
I'm confused a bit about this whole thread. My understanding, being on a RCAF wing, was that the Comd RCN had dictated that all naval personnel, regardless of the environment they worked in would wear NCD's as their dress of day. CADPAT was not even an option. I remember having to order some poor LS to go to clothing stores to get sized and put in their orders. IS this not the case? Doesn't that make any decision about Salt and Peppers mute, seeing as its not the dress of day on most non RCN establishments?

That whole mess was due to RCN pers posted to Army or RCAF bases and the question about their entitlement to wear Cadpat (Army) or what ever the hell the RCAF call their pajamas.
This debate is a result of a rumour coming out of the Operational ( ::) east) coast that everyone will wear NCD's all the time. IMO this is as stupid and wasteful as pilots wearing flight suits as everyday wear even though they haven't seen the inside of a cockpit for years.


Offline Dipstick

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #53 on: June 12, 2015, 10:51:36 »
Now I am confused. I was under the impression that the RCN/RCF/CA thing was just renaming the old commands. How, then, did Comd RCN gain the authority to tell members of the CF what to wear when working for another command just because they happen to have been given a Navy DEU when they joined?

I mean, shouldn't what a Master Seaman Supply Tech posted to an Air Base wear be the dress of the day ordered by Comd RCAF, and likely delegated to the base commander? If a Petty officer cook is posted to an Army unit and it goes in the field, should that unit's CO not make arrangement for the cook to get into  CADPAT? And should it not be that  CO's decision - not Comd RCN?

This was ordered via VCDS CANFORGEN in 2009:

"ACCORDINGLY, CF MEMBERS ENTITLED TO THE NAVAL DISTINCTIVE ENVIRONMENTAL UNIFORM (DEU) ARE HEREBY DIRECTED TO WEAR NAVAL COMBAT DRESS (NCD) IN LIEU OF CADPAT, WHERE THE CADPAT IS PERMITTED BY COMDS AND CO S AS THE DRESS OF THE DAY. EXCEPTIONS TO THIS CANFORGEN ARE PERMITTED FOR VALID OPERATIONAL REASONS ONLY, INCL EMPL IN ACTUAL FIELD OPS, FIELD TRG ACTIVITIES OR OTHER APPROVED TRG SITUATIONS"

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #54 on: June 12, 2015, 10:56:19 »
Now, a VCDS CANFORGEN makes more sense.

Thank You.

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #55 on: June 12, 2015, 11:01:57 »
Was it signed by the VCDS? I thought the last line in it was COMD RCN SENDS.

Offline Dipstick

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #56 on: June 12, 2015, 11:16:53 »
Was it signed by the VCDS? I thought the last line in it was COMD RCN SENDS.

I just looked it up. The OPI is listed as VCDS, the title is "CANFORGEN 198/09 VCDS 031 191500Z NOV 09", and what I posted above was the last thing it says. That said, I have no doubt that Comd RCN (CMS I guess in 2009) was the driving force behind the direction, with VCDS signing so that it would apply to people outside the Navy's purview.

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #57 on: June 12, 2015, 13:40:09 »
Ack, thanks. Away from DWAN so couldn't fact check my memory myself.

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #58 on: June 12, 2015, 13:43:58 »
This debate is a result of a rumour coming out of the Operational ( ::) east) coast that everyone will wear NCD's all the time. IMO this is as stupid and wasteful as pilots wearing flight suits as everyday wear even though they haven't seen the inside of a cockpit for years.

The  ::) east coast doesn't have the market cornered on silly ideas and rumors to be fair.  I have been subjected to plenty of  ::) decisions arising from the left coast with their decisions on training etc.  Not to mention,  ::) ::) the puzzle palace, where I am headed next.

Offline Underway

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #59 on: June 12, 2015, 14:36:54 »
I just looked it up. The OPI is listed as VCDS, the title is "CANFORGEN 198/09 VCDS 031 191500Z NOV 09", and what I posted above was the last thing it says. That said, I have no doubt that Comd RCN (CMS I guess in 2009) was the driving force behind the direction, with VCDS signing so that it would apply to people outside the Navy's purview.

This created some interesting conflicts within some Army commands with attached Navy personelle.  LFCA Comd would have none of it at the time and all navy pers were required to draw and wear CADPAT every day despite the msg and the navy pers respectful protestations and waiving of the CANFORGEN.

SSI at 180 days is confirmed.  Just saw the msg and some pers are already receiving/authorized to get their gunmetals.

Offline cupper

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #60 on: June 12, 2015, 20:18:41 »
The  ::) east coast doesn't have the market cornered on silly ideas and rumors to be fair.  I have been subjected to plenty of  ::) decisions arising from the left coast with their decisions on training etc.  Not to mention,  ::) ::) the puzzle palace, where I am headed next.

Before you head to Ottawa you should get your eyes checked. You seem to have some sort of nervous tic thing going on.  >:D
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Offline Pat in Halifax

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #61 on: June 13, 2015, 06:31:14 »
I thought that CANFORGEN was for the Naval Centennial year only. I recall the Stewards (then) in Borden fighting a lost battle with Command there for a very short time.
Again, Flt Chief is back Monday-I will attempt to clarify this.

Pat
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Offline Harrigan

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #62 on: June 14, 2015, 00:11:16 »
Blueberry cam (a la USN) is useless operationally, unless you are doing battle in a Pop Tart factory. 

I need a new keyboard now.  Thank you for that!   ;D

Harrigan

Offline Harrigan

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #63 on: June 14, 2015, 00:17:18 »
May I direct you to the USN and RAN for current navy examples that wear a camo pattern. I'm sure some SW Asian Navies do as well (Singapore??).  As someone who has and still does interact with the public regularly in a Navy uniform far away from the coast not even being recognized as being in the military is extremely frustrating.  The only uniform that is instantly recognized as Navy is the whites, (thank you Top Gun).  Even DEU's look like civi pilot uniforms.  If they brought back square rig that would surely help for NCM's.  Its about brand recognition and right now the RCN brand is overly expensive not working subs.  The public doesn't even recognize their sailors in uniform. /RANT

Edited for spelling and grammar...

For what its worth, it seems to me the new RCAF leather jacket has improved the "brand" in the public eye at least.  For all its shortcomings, the public has been led to expect (yes, by Top Gun and the like) that pilots (who apparently are 100% of the RCAF) to be in a leather jacket.  I am not casting judgement on the jacket per se, just that it likely seems more natural to the civvies in my opinion. 

I have always thought that the Navy uniforms have always looked sharp (though I have always wondered how wearing ballcaps in uniform in town is allowed)

Harrigan

Offline Pat in Halifax

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #64 on: June 14, 2015, 08:15:20 »
I have always thought that the Navy uniforms have always looked sharp (though I have always wondered how wearing ballcaps in uniform in town is allowed)

Harrigan

That is why they are referred to as ship's caps (in the proper sense). Why would we wear a ball cap-We are not playing ball! All that sad, I am pretty sure that was brought in as the ship's cap provides for a Unit identifier and in many cases, that is a pride piece; otherwise the salt and pepper version has no Unit and though the NCD jacket does, you need to be 6" away to see the Unit and even then, some might be a tad obscure (CCFL/P, CFNES/OS, FMF etc) unless of course you are an old salt like some on here and can identify ship's crests from a distance. Again even then....for a while we had three ships with the same/similar crest only a different colour; OTTAWA, TORONTO and GATINEAU.

Pat
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #65 on: June 14, 2015, 15:33:36 »
Harrigan: for several years I wore a cap like this ~

     
     Canadian Army "bush" cap - standard issue from 1950 until about 1965.

          ~ my cap badge was different, but it was a cloth cap with an "identifier" on it, not all that different from a "ship's cap" today. It was practical, comfortable and 'smart,' what uniforms ought to be.

My only objection to sailors wearing NCDs in offices and, equally, to soldiers wearing CADPAT combat uniforms in their offices is cost: as someone else said, a cotton shirt, a pair of gabardine trousers and a pair of issue oxfords or ankle boots costs a HUGE amount less than NCDs or combats ~ we don't need to waste that money trying to make people "feel" more operational.
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Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #66 on: June 14, 2015, 15:51:04 »
Ah, the Bush Cap, with tabbed flaps to be dropped to shield the back of the neck from the sun (never, ever saw/used that). The flap would be starched flat and then folded and ironed into a sharp crease at the top.

The purchased stiffener (emplaced, then the cap immersed in water) to give a stretched smooth look and slightly curved brill, followed by the ironing of the flap.

And the purchased aluminum small pack/ammo pouch frames to give a squared off, smart look to the fighting order on parade.

The old peace-time army with some in authority running amuck. ;D
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #67 on: June 14, 2015, 15:58:48 »
Ah, the Bush Cap, with tabbed flaps to be dropped to shield the back of the neck from the sun (never, ever saw/used that). The flap would be starched flat and then folded and ironed into a sharp crease at the top.

The purchased stiffener (emplaced, then the cap immersed in water) to give a stretched smooth look and slightly curved brill, followed by the ironing of the flap.

And the purchased aluminum small pack/ammo pouch frames to give a squared off, smart look to the fighting order on parade.

The old peace-time army with some in authority running amuck. ;D


True ... especially in Depot and so on, but some (maybe even many) RSMs and CSMs were far more interested in tactical/operational skills and knowledge and in working equipment and in seeing spit shone boots day-in and day-out. We still had spit shone boots, and we could square bash with any army, anywhere, any time, but we could also outdo almost any army, anywhere, any time at soldiering in the field. I can recall, very well, polishing - spit polishing - the (leather) soles of my boots (I did my junior NCO course with the Guards) and so on, I can also recall wiping the floor in an international patrol competition with the best that NATO could send our way.


And garrison dress was bush pants, shirt, high neck sweater in fall/winter/spring, bush cap (year 'round in some units) and jump smock (for those authorized) or parka shell when the weather required them. We managed to look smart and be comfortable at the same time ... despite having old kit.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 16:01:33 by E.R. Campbell »
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Offline Old Sweat

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #68 on: June 14, 2015, 15:59:44 »
Ah, the Bush Cap, with tabbed flaps to be dropped to shield the back of the neck from the sun (never, ever saw/used that). The flap would be starched flat and then folded and ironed into a sharp crease at the top.

The purchased stiffener (emplaced, then the cap immersed in water) to give a stretched smooth look and slightly curved brill, followed by the ironing of the flap.

And the purchased aluminum small pack/ammo pouch frames to give a squared off, smart look to the fighting order on parade.

The old peace-time army with some in authority running amuck. ;D

Don't forget the piece of coat hanger wire used to stiffen the brim. By the way, the shirt in the photo is not contemporary as the issue shirt had epaulettes plus two buttons just below the collar to keep it flat by doing up each side of the collar against the shirt body when not wearing a tie.

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #69 on: June 14, 2015, 17:20:30 »
Harrigan: for several years I wore a cap like this ~

     
     Canadian Army "bush" cap - standard issue from 1950 until about 1965.

          ~ my cap badge was different, but it was a cloth cap with an "identifier" on it, not all that different from a "ship's cap" today. It was practical, comfortable and 'smart,' what uniforms ought to be.


'Smarter' if you blocked it with a 'birdcage' ;)
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 17:35:19 by recceguy »
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Offline Harrigan

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #70 on: June 14, 2015, 17:27:50 »

My only objection to sailors wearing NCDs in offices and, equally, to soldiers wearing CADPAT combat uniforms in their offices is cost: as someone else said, a cotton shirt, a pair of gabardine trousers and a pair of issue oxfords or ankle boots costs a HUGE amount less than NCDs or combats ~ we don't need to waste that money trying to make people "feel" more operational.

I agree completely on the NCDs/CADPATs in offices from a cost perspective. 

Harrigan

Offline FSTO

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #71 on: June 14, 2015, 17:55:09 »
[quote author=E.R. Campbell link=topic=119615.msg1372631#msg1372631 date=1434310416
       
My only objection to sailors wearing NCDs in offices and, equally, to soldiers wearing CADPAT combat uniforms in their offices is cost: as someone else said, a cotton shirt, a pair of gabardine trousers and a pair of issue oxfords or ankle boots costs a HUGE amount less than NCDs or combats ~ we don't need to waste that money trying to make people "feel" more operational.
[/quote]

That is reason why I am so hard over against wearing NCD/CBTS/Flight suits in the office environments. You are in the the Canadian Armed Forces for christ sake. If wearing a certain piece of clothing is what is required to make people more effective supporting the lads and lassies at the coal face, then we as a profession are really FUBAR'd and is in dire need of a major reset.

Offline Harrigan

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #72 on: June 14, 2015, 20:46:19 »
Are we sure that everyone in Ottawa is allowed to wear NCDs/CADPAT/Flight Suits?  My understanding was that one had to wear DEUs within NDHQ, but the operational clothing was allowed at CJOC (as the Operational HQ)?  Certainly all of the folks I have met at 101 Colonel By were in DEU's.

Alos, perhaps a more valid question is why it costs $600 plus for a set of CADPATs.  That seems ridiculously costly to me, though I am no fashion expert.

Harrigan

Offline Ostrozac

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #73 on: June 14, 2015, 21:03:21 »
Are we sure that everyone in Ottawa is allowed to wear NCDs/CADPAT/Flight Suits?  My understanding was that one had to wear DEUs within NDHQ, but the operational clothing was allowed at CJOC (as the Operational HQ)?  Certainly all of the folks I have met at 101 Colonel By were in DEU's.

Alos, perhaps a more valid question is why it costs $600 plus for a set of CADPATs.  That seems ridiculously costly to me, though I am no fashion expert.

Harrigan

Ottawa these days is about 50-50 on what to wear to work. Different chains of command pass on their own dress standards at the 30 or so worksites we have in the NCR (Ottawa is way more than 101 Colonel By and Startop). I twice worked downtown in the main NDHQ building (101) -- for two different units -- both times my dress of the day was Cadpat.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #74 on: June 14, 2015, 21:08:36 »
Ottawa these days is about 50-50 on what to wear to work. Different chains of command pass on their own dress standards at the 30 or so worksites we have in the NCR (Ottawa is way more than 101 Colonel By and Startop). I twice worked downtown in the main NDHQ building (101) -- for two different units -- both times my dress of the day was Cadpat.

It was that Sgts (Army) and below were permitted wearing CADPAT, depending on where they worked.  WO and above were to wear DEU, although there were exceptions when and where so employed.
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