Topic: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[Colin P]

Eurofighter is $136M CAD per aircraft. Sounds like a great deal....

Not being Lockheed or Boeing = Priceless

[Dimsum]

Not being Lockheed or Boeing = Priceless

Not if major repairs end up needing to be done in Europe.  That was one of the major contract issues with the Aussies when they got the Tiger ARH.  I mean there were other issues too, hence why they're trying to replace them 20 years after they bought them.

[MarkOttawa]

Got to keep those Canadian jobs as long as possible--until we get Bombardier jobs at silly price for Eurofighter?

Canada to keep paying for F-35 development during fighter-jet competition

A senior official at the Department of National Defence says Canada will remain a member of the F-35 stealth fighter program until the government knows which jet it plans to buy to replace Canada’s aging CF-18s.

That means Canada will continue to pay tens of millions of dollars over the next couple of years to help pay for development of the fighter jet even though it may end up buying something else.

DND’s head of procurement, Patrick Finn, says staying on as one of nine partner countries makes sense so Canada can compete for billions of dollars in contracts associated with the F-35...

The Trudeau Liberals are scheduled to launch a competition to pick a new fighter jet this spring, a winner won’t be identified for several more years [supposedly 2022 for contract award!!!].

Canada has so far invested roughly half-a-billion dollars in the F-35 over the past 20 years, even as successive federal governments have wrestled with whether to buy the plane or not.
https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/canada-to-keep-paying-for-f-35-development-during-fighter-jet-competition

Mark
Ottawa

[HB_Pencil]

Got to keep those Canadian jobs as long as possible--until we get Bombardier jobs at silly price for Eurofighter?

Mark
Ottawa

No, this is potentially a huge development in the project... there was a lot of major uncertainty going on, and this may be the first piece of good news in awhile.

[milnews.ca]

Got to keep those Canadian jobs as long as possible--until we get Bombardier jobs at silly price for Eurofighter?

Canada to keep paying for F-35 development during fighter-jet competition

A senior official at the Department of National Defence says Canada will remain a member of the F-35 stealth fighter program until the government knows which jet it plans to buy to replace Canada’s aging CF-18s.  ...

Taking this story a step further here ...

Canada is being forced to shoulder a bigger share of the costs of developing F-35 fighter jets even though it has not decided whether it will actually buy any.

Canada is one of nine partner countries in the F-35 project, each of which is required to cover a portion of the stealth fighter's multibillion-dollar development costs to stay at the table.

Each country pays based on the number of F-35s it's expecting to buy. Canada has pitched in more than half-a-billion dollars over the last 20 years, including $54 million last year.

But that amount was based on the Stephen Harper government's plan to buy 65 new fighter jets to replace Canada's aging CF-18s, which the Trudeau government has since officially increased to 88.

Even though Canada has not committed that those 88 jets will be F-35s, the Department of National Defence says that change means it will have to pay more to remain a partner — including about $72 million this year.

"Canada's costs under the F-35 (partnership agreement) are based on an intended fleet size," Defence Department spokeswoman Ashley Lemire said in an email.

"Canada changed its fleet size within the F-35 (agreement) from 65 to 88 aircraft to align with government decisions on the size of the intended permanent fighter fleet to be acquired through competition and the payment increased accordingly." ...

[Colin P]

LOL the irony....

[daftandbarmy]

Taking this story a step further here ...

Don't worry, the Trudeau spin doctors will be along in just a moment to make it sound like 'everything's going to be alright.' 



“You know, that might be the answer – to act boastfully about something we ought to be ashamed of. That’s a trick that never seems to fail.”

―  Joseph Heller,  Catch-22

[suffolkowner]

The original F-35 procurement numbers I saw had Canada ordering 80, so not that much of a difference. 65 was just the smallest number that could be gotten away with. I'm sure if our NORAD obligation was less than 36 our "order" would have been less than 65 as well

[MarkOttawa]

Meanwhile Finland (population 5.5 million, much less geography than Canada) is planning to buy 64 new fighters--from the usual suspects:

Industry bids are in for Finland’s $13 billion fighter race

Finland’s HX-FP multirole fighter replacement program has advanced to the next stage as five aircraft manufacturers have tendered their proposals to the Finnish Defence Forces’ (FDF) Logistics Command office. The proposals include preliminary quotations on cost.

The air force plans to retire its fleet of F/A-18 C/D Hornet jets between 2025 and 2029 [emphasis added, roughly RCAF time frame too]. The HX-FP carries an estimated price tag of €11.4 billion, a cost that includes life cycle service and maintenance overheads on a fleet of 64 multirole aircraft.

The government received proposals from four countries, including the United States, Sweden, France and Britain.

The aircraft types covered in the proposals are Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin’s F-35, France’s Dassault Rafale, the British-made Eurofighter and the Swedish Saab Gripen. The Saab proposal includes both the single-seat Gripen E and the dual-seat Gripen F versions.

Request for Quotation (RFQ) documents were dispatched by the Logistics Command to the governments of France, the United States, Britain and Sweden in April 2018. The petitions were then forwarded to the five participating manufacturers. The deadline for acceptance of responses was Jan. 31, 2019.

The proposals received by the Logistics Command include information pertaining to technical systems requirements for operating a fleet of 64 aircraft, as well as support documentation dealing with training systems, essential maintenance tools, testing equipment, spare parts, weapons systems and sensors...

The proposal presented by Saab sets out the basis for a broad, long-term industrial cooperation between Finland and Sweden framed around any deal. The proposal covers the production of military aircraft in Finland. It also includes the transfer of maintenance, repair and overhaul capabilities to local industry in Finland. Moreover, Saab is proposing to establish a Gripen sustainment and development center in Finland.
https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2019/02/01/industry-bids-are-in-for-finlands-13-billion-fighter-race/

Both Saab and Airbus to offer nice bribes for Bombardier in our competition?

Mark
Ottawa

[Hamish Seggie]

Meanwhile in Canada the GoC is kicking the effing can down the road. 🤦‍♂️

[Retired AF Guy]

Meanwhile in Canada the GoC is kicking the effing can down the road. 🤦‍♂️

Because that's what they always do.

[Dimsum]

Meanwhile in Canada the GoC is kicking the effing can down the road. 🤦‍♂️

Because we "can".  Finland is next to...well, you know.  They probably have defence as a pretty high priority given geography and history.

[MarkOttawa]

Dimsum:

Because we "can".  Finland is next to...well, you know.

Meanwhile we have that pesky 36-fighter commitment to NORAD vs an ever-improving Russkie bombers (Tu-95, Tu-160, maybe sometime a stealth bomber) and ALCM threat--and what if those bombers can be escorted by refuelled fighters, e.g. MiG-31, later Su-57?

NORAD to Face Escorted Cruise Missile-Carrying Russian Bombers?
https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2016/04/11/mark-collins-norad-to-face-escorted-cruise-missile-carrying-russian-bombers/

Further links to other posts within the main post no longer work, but do if you cut and past the title into the search box at upper right.

Mark
Ottawa

[Dimsum]

Dimsum:

Meanwhile we have that pesky 36-fighter commitment to NORAD vs an ever-improving Russkie bombers (Tu-95, Tu-160, maybe sometime a stealth bomber) and ALCM threat--and what if those bombers can be escorted by refuelled fighters, e.g. MiG-31, later Su-57?

Further links to other posts within the main post no longer work, but do if you cut and past the title into the search box at upper right.

Mark
Ottawa

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand why we need a robust fighter capability, but the Canadian public doesn't b/c of reasons we've gone into in multiple discussions.  I'm just saying that the Finns share a border with Russia and have been invaded before by them during WWII, so they know that they need a decent military.

[Colin P]

Fly in front of the with special containers dispensing Frozen Chickens 

[daftandbarmy]

Fly in front of the with special containers dispensing Frozen Chickens 

Or 'Trudeau Parkas'. They could actually use them in Scandinavia... 

[Chris Pook]

Meanwhile - Down-under - the loyal wingman

An unmanned combat air vehicle that is capable of some semi-autonomous missions and can operate in the loyal wingman role, where it is 'tethered' to and takes directions from a nearby manned platform via data-link, makes a lot of sense for Australia as it would boost their air combat capabilities without needing to buy additional high-cost fighters or train new aircrews. It also would also make all their fighter force more survivable and capable of adapting to hostile threats on the fly. In addition, it would also increase their fighter cadre's magazine capacity, sensor diversity, range. The drones themselves can also be networked together in a swarm, giving them greater capability than the sum of their parts.

These concepts can be manifested in distinct aircraft, or potentially blended together in a single airframe, albeit with some compromises. But still, they should be less expensive than a very stealthy, high-end, flying-wing UCAV that is built for semi-autonomous or even autonomous operations deep in enemy territory.

A full-on fighter-like UCAV is also possible, but due to cost and the investment Australia has already made in their growing fleet of F-35s, this seems doubtful at this time. Also, high kinetic performance would mean sacrificing stealth and range, something that makes little sense really. And we know by the features Boeing has shown that this aircraft is designed for fighter-like speed and maneuverability, not extreme stealthiness and long range.

http://thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26656/boeing-will-unveil-this-loyal-wingman-combat-drone-for-australias-air-force-tomorrow

Muuummmyyyy!  Why can't we do neat stuff like this!  The Aussies get to do it!!!   

[Chris Pook]

And just a reminder of what the F-35 can do with Manned "wingmen"

Here’s how Col. Joshua Wood recalled the mission, providing a few details about the performance of the stealth aircraft in the latest exercise (that saw the participation of thirteen pilots in the squadron who had never flown the F-35 in Red Flag, including four who had just graduated pilot training):

“I’ve never seen anything like it before. This is not a mission you want a young pilot flying in. My wingman was a brand new F-35A pilot, seven or eight flights out of training. He gets on the radio and tells an experienced, 3,000-hour pilot in a very capable fourth-generation aircraft. ‘Hey bud, you need to turn around. You’re about to die. There’s a threat off your nose.’”

The young pilot then “killed” the enemy aircraft and had three more kills in the hour-long mission.

https://theaviationist.com/2019/02/16/the-first-reports-of-how-the-f-35-strutted-its-stuff-in-dogfights-against-aggressors-at-red-flag-are-starting-to-emerge/

[Thucydides]

If I were to choose a UAV/UCAV as a partner for the RCAF I might consider the MQ25 "Stingray"

While designed as a tanker (and the RCAF could use tanker support), the large internal volume of the airframe suggests it could also be adapted for air surveillance, EW/ECM, and as an arsenal aircraft carrying lots of bombs or missiles. Farther in the future, the airframe could be fitted with a laser or an airborne railgun, allowing the aircraft to engage a multitude of targets from the ground to the edge of space.

One, large unmanned airframe could be used for a multitude of roles. supplementing many different RCAF airframes, and more airframes could be purchased at once and fitted out as surveillance aircraft for the Coast Guard, CBSA, Fisheries and Oceans etc., providing economies of scale.

[Loachman]

Are you volunteering?

[daftandbarmy]

Are you volunteering?

That depends. How many pay sheets do I get to sign?

[MilEME09]

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/blast-past-why-new-f-15x-could-dominate-skies-46067

Article mentions the USAF is interested in the F-15X. That would make it more atteactive if their was multiple orders and a production line active for more then just us.

[MilEME09]

Lockmart has a new/old product on the way. Meet the F-21/F16V

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/it-has-f-22-and-f-35-dna-introducing-lockheed-martins-new-f-21-fighter-47822

[milnews.ca]

More fodder for discussion ...

"Amid a feud with Turkey over the F-35, the US is thinking about selling it other European allies worried about Russia"

The United States is considering expanding sales of Lockheed Martin Corp-made F-35 fighter jets to five new nations including Romania, Greece and Poland as European allies bulk up their defenses in the face of a strengthening Russia, a Pentagon official told Congress on Thursday.

In written testimony submitted to the US House of Representatives and seen by Reuters, Vice Adm. Mathias Winter — the head of the Pentagon's F-35 office — said that "future potential Foreign Military Sales customers include Singapore, Greece, Romania, Spain and Poland."

News of the new customers coincides with US tension with F-35 development partner Turkey over Ankara's plans to buy a Russian missile defense system.

Foreign military sales like those of the F-35 are considered government-to-government deals where the Pentagon acts as an intermediary between the defense contractor and a foreign government. Other US allies have been eyeing a purchase of the stealthy jet including Finland, Switzerland and the United Arab Emirates.

Winter's full written testimony, which will be made public as soon as Friday, said the United States would respond to all official requests for information about the jet ...

More @ link

[daftandbarmy]

More fodder for discussion ...

"Amid a feud with Turkey over the F-35, the US is thinking about selling it other European allies worried about Russia"More @ link

Great. That will officially consign our air force to 3rd world status... oh, wait... 4th world