Author Topic: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers  (Read 59747 times)

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Offline jmt18325

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #150 on: August 28, 2017, 15:52:16 »
Crossing a border at any place other than an approved entry point is a violation under S11 of the Customs Act.

Except when it's not.  Canada is a signatory to the UN Convention on Refugees. 

Canada has voluntarily agreed to abide by certain conventions, however we can still prosecute immigration and customs offences. Again, the arrests are under the Customs act for failure to cross at a customs office, and not under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act.

We can - if we choose to ignore/pull out of the convention.  I don't see that happening.  They cease to be illegal crossings when the person making the crossing claims asylum.

They are released, with charges put on hold when they claim asylum. 

Offline jmt18325

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #151 on: August 28, 2017, 16:01:02 »
But yes - under every other conceivable circumstance, crossing the border illegally is....illegal.


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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #152 on: August 28, 2017, 17:18:28 »
But yes - under every other conceivable circumstance, crossing the border illegally is....illegal.

Good. You now agree that breaking a law is illegal.

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #153 on: August 28, 2017, 17:22:48 »
Good. You now agree that breaking a law is illegal.


Well almost

Black's Law Dictionary defines unlawful as not authorized by law, illegal. Illegal is defined as forbidden by law, unlawful. Semantically, there is a slight difference. It seems that something illegal is expressly proscribed by statute, and something unlawful is just not expressly authorized.

Offline Brihard

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #154 on: August 28, 2017, 17:40:59 »
Except when it's not.  Canada is a signatory to the UN Convention on Refugees. 

We can - if we choose to ignore/pull out of the convention.  I don't see that happening.  They cease to be illegal crossings when the person making the crossing claims asylum.

They are released, with charges put on hold when they claim asylum.

Yeah, no, that's not how it works. The entry is still illegal, full stop. The UN convention on refugees does not negate the Customs Act. They are arrested under the Customs Act. An asylum claim changes their legal status in Canada, but it does not suddenly legalize the crossing.

Charges are not 'put on hold' when they claim asylum. Charges simply have not been laid. There are none to put on hold. Charges are not automatic. They are one possible result of an illegal entry, but that decision is made after initial processing has occurred. Understanding the nature of the crossing, police and border officials by practice are not charging at the illegal crossing points near St Jean.

Again, you would be better served to try to learn on this one, and not to try to preach to those who actually know the subject matter. You could even ask questions if you would like.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline jmt18325

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #155 on: August 28, 2017, 17:48:26 »
I'll ask a question.  If their asylum claim is granted, will the charges for the illegal crossing go forward?

(This happens to be another of the areas that I actually do know the subject matter, unlike on actual military matters, btw)

They are being referred to by people in the legal profession as irregular crossers for a reason.  Those whose claim is found to be invalid are a different story.

If you wanted to convince me I was wrong, you could have went with the actual wording of Article 31 of the Convention.  It technically doesn't apply here, even if in practice it's usually applied as they're doing it now.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 17:53:10 by jmt18325 »

Offline Brihard

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #156 on: August 28, 2017, 18:06:42 »
I'll ask a question.  If their asylum claim is granted, will the charges for the illegal crossing go forward?

(This happens to be another of the areas that I actually do know the subject matter, unlike on actual military matters, btw)

They are being referred to by people in the legal profession as irregular crossers for a reason.  Those whose claim is found to be invalid are a different story.

No it will not. They are being referred to that way because people have their own political views on the matter; language has frequently been altered to suit various interests in the border issue. It does not change the law on the matter. It does not make crossing the border illegally not illegal. S.11 of the Customs Act is crystal clear on that.

Most of those crossing will not get to stay. Most do not have sufficient grounds for an asylum claim. Some are showing up already having attempted legal entry, being ruled inadmissible, and having an exclusion order.

Some will get to stay-  but very few of the Haitians, absent ministerial intervention. Those with a valid reason to fear for their lives may be accepted.

I understand that you believe you have a full appreciate of the situation, but you do not. It's very clear you're not actually working in any capacity connected to this issue or you would have a better idea of the reality on the ground. I am. I'm not googling this; this is all firsthand.

Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline jmt18325

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #157 on: August 28, 2017, 18:13:22 »
No it will not. They are being referred to that way because people have their own political views on the matter; language has frequently been altered to suit various interests in the border issue. It does not change the law on the matter. It does not make crossing the border illegally not illegal. S.11 of the Customs Act is crystal clear on that.

You're correct of course, it's always technically illegal.  If they're found to have a legitimate claim, what they did to get here doesn't matter anymore, and the convention applies.  Until they're processed, the convention applies.  Irregular is a better word, IMO, until their claim is denied.

Quote
Most of those crossing will not get to stay. Most do not have sufficient grounds for an asylum claim. Some are showing up already having attempted legal entry, being ruled inadmissible, and having an exclusion order.

Some will get to stay-  but very few of the Haitians, absent ministerial intervention. Those with a valid reason to fear for their lives may be accepted.


I believe you.  I hope we're able to put enough resources in to get things done somewhat timely.

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #158 on: August 28, 2017, 21:15:14 »
Just shut up please.  I want more info from someone who knows, not someone who thinks they know.
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Offline jmt18325

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #159 on: August 28, 2017, 21:42:10 »
Just shut up please.  I want more info from someone who knows, not someone who thinks they know.

Just a suggestion (then I'll 'shut up') - this isn't a good place to get info on this subject.  It was a good place to discuss it, until today.

Offline Brihard

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #160 on: August 28, 2017, 23:45:28 »
Just a suggestion (then I'll 'shut up') - this isn't a good place to get info on this subject.  It was a good place to discuss it, until today.

Why, what happened today other than someone directly involved in this at the border showing up? I'm as happy to answer questions for him as I am for you. I am not the be all end all expert, but I am on the ground working this, and certainly understand my legal authorities and the various factors in play here. If you think this is a useless place for the layperson to get info, you can only speak for yourself. While I may need to be circumspect and cautious in my input at times, for you to say this thread is no longer a good place for discussion suggests you regarded it as such only so long as you were the only one offering up perspective. I assure you, you are not the only educated person here, nor the only one with an academic understanding of the big picture. Some of us on this board simply happen to also bolster that with real world experience.

You come across as arrogant and insufferable in your insistence on expertise on this. Maybe find a role where you can actually spend some time at the border or with the subject population, or join and become trained and experienced in one of the involved agencies.

There is a finite point beyond which one cannot any longer learn the real world from books. Sometimes to really know something takes doing things and learning from the experience of those you meet whilst doing those things.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline jmt18325

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #161 on: August 29, 2017, 00:01:06 »
Look, the legal community is also split on this:

http://globalnews.ca/news/3299221/asylum-seekers-us-canada-border-laws/

It's not as clear cut as you're trying to make it out to be.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #162 on: August 29, 2017, 00:52:00 »
Just a suggestion (then I'll 'shut up') - this isn't a good place to get info on this subject.  It was a good place to discuss it, until today.

Police officers, border guards, military lawyers, military police, highly educated military officers (commissioned and non) with decades of experience. I'm confident with the level and quality of info here.

Contrary to what you may feel JMT we're actually not here for your entertainment or to give you some sense of debating satisfaction. You've already stated arguing on the internet is a hobby of yours.  If you don't like it here you could always move on instead of lamenting about it and the cliché "last post" stuff. 
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 01:06:53 by Jarnhamar »
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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #163 on: August 29, 2017, 06:57:29 »
Look, the legal community is also split on this:

http://globalnews.ca/news/3299221/asylum-seekers-us-canada-border-laws/

It's not as clear cut as you're trying to make it out to be.


So??  Some Americans beleave , and will quote for the media, that Mr. Trump is not  their  President.......doesn't make it so.
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Offline Haggis

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #164 on: August 29, 2017, 07:47:57 »
JMT:  some references for you:

Asylum is defined as the protection granted by a nation to a person who cannot return to their home country for fear of prosecution.

Other than legitimate immigrants who follow the established process, persons arriving at the border fall into two categories under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act (IRPA):

REFUGEE (IRPA Part II, s. 96): person who, by reason of a well-founded fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group or political opinion,
(a) is outside each of their countries of nationality and is unable or, by reason of that fear, unwilling to avail themself of the protection of each of those countries; or
(b) not having a country of nationality, is outside the country of their former habitual residence and is unable or, by reason of that fear, unwilling to return to that country.

PERSON IN NEED OF PROTECTION (IRPA Part II, s. 97(1): person in Canada whose removal to their country or countries of nationality or, if they do not have a country of nationality, their country of former habitual residence, would subject them personally
(a) to a danger, believed on substantial grounds to exist, of torture within the meaning of Article 1 of the Convention Against Torture; or
(b) to a risk to their life or to a risk of cruel and unusual treatment or punishment if
(i) the person is unable or, because of that risk, unwilling to avail themself of the protection of that country,
(ii) the risk would be faced by the person in every part of that country and is not faced generally by other individuals in or from that country,
(iii) the risk is not inherent or incidental to lawful sanctions, unless imposed in disregard of accepted international standards, and
(iv) the risk is not caused by the inability of that country to provide adequate health or medical care.

Most of those crossing will not get to stay. Most do not have sufficient grounds for an asylum claim. Some are showing up already having attempted legal entry, being ruled inadmissible, and having an exclusion order.

Brihard is correct and it's important to understand the onus is on the applicant to prove they require protection as outlined above.  If they have already been deemed inadmissible and nothing in their situation has changed regarding what they may face if repatriated to their country of citizenship, then they will still be inadmissible. 

Some will get to stay-  but very few of the Haitians, absent ministerial intervention. Those with a valid reason to fear for their lives may be accepted.

Note, also, that there is a clear distinction between Refugee and Person in Need of Protection in that a Refugee is fleeing a generally unsafe situation and a Person in Need of Protection is fleeing an unsafe situation that applies to them specifically.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 08:28:01 by Haggis »
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Offline captloadie

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #165 on: August 29, 2017, 09:21:57 »
So how will the government deal with this current situation? Having served in Haiti recently, I can see where the regulations posted by Haggis supports Brihard's determination that few of the Haitians crossing the border will meet the definition of refugees or Person's in need of protection. What I can't see is the government loading thousands of these individuals onto chartered aircraft and returning them to Port-au-Prince. Nor can I see gov't putting a whole lot of effort into tracking them down, once word gets out that that is might be the plan and they all scatter in the wind (my understanding is they currently are not being "detained" in any form and have full walking out privileges).


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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #166 on: August 29, 2017, 11:55:03 »
If they did fly them back, that would cause the flood to become a trickle, there will be some that want a free flight. Letting them go is basically acquiescing to them staying.

Offline Brihard

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #167 on: August 29, 2017, 12:17:34 »
Therein lies the rub. If the course of events is allowed to play out, over a few years this will all go through Immigraion and Refugee Board hearings, those deemed ineligible will receive orders to exit the country, and then the appeals will start. Once they play out, again there will be orders to leave the country. Some will, some won't. Those who don't will end up with Canada wide immigration warrants and over time as they have encounters with police that cause a CPIC check to be done, they'll slowly trickle in to the detention and removal system.

Some of the people coming in have very valid grounds for asylum... People whose cities back home (e.g., Syria) are literally gone. Others have fallen victim to inaccurate rumors. Some are just mind numbingly stupid and don't have a chance (e.g. some adult American citizens have actually come in thinking they can get asylum here, though it's unclear what they are fleeing). The border situation in Quebec is far from just Haitians at this point. Everyone's got a story, some are truly awful, but most won't cut it.

The big "what if?" Is if the federal minister orders stays on removal processes, and if executive authority is used to arbitrarily grant legal status in Canada to those whose asylum claims don't go through. We are all fully cognizant that a dragged out removal of several thousand Haitians will not look good for the government, and that the timeframe for same could be quite awkward indeed. But that's speculative and in the future.

I have been truly impressed by the CBSA border services officers that I've had the pleasure of working with. These are people who love welcoming those who have been granted permission to come to Canada; who love identifying those at risk in trafficking situations, or assisting those who are fleeing real and awful persecution. I have not in the past given CBSA enough credit as an organization. They have good people doing a tough job.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline jmt18325

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #168 on: August 29, 2017, 12:40:14 »
The big "what if?" Is if the federal minister orders stays on removal processes, and if executive authority is used to arbitrarily grant legal status in Canada to those whose asylum claims don't go through.

That certainly wouldn't be consistent with any of the messaging around the process from this government. 

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #169 on: August 29, 2017, 13:06:44 »
That certainly wouldn't be consistent with any of the messaging around the process from this government.

Really?  You're going to go with that?   :rofl:

The Government and the PM himself refuse to call their actions crossing the border illegal, but only 'irregular.'  I drove past the tent cities on I-87 a couple days ago, and the accommodations and facilities for them were better turned out than most Canadian Army exercises I've ever been on.  This whole operation is visibly messaging "Welcome!"

You can borrow the batteries from my "surprised face", jmt18325, when this comes to pass -- I won't need them.

G2G

   



Offline jmt18325

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #170 on: August 29, 2017, 13:32:34 »
I will be surprised.  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #171 on: August 29, 2017, 14:38:08 »
The best solution proposed to date was in a reader's letter to the Montreal Gazette published today:

"Build a wall and make the USA pay for it" ... the reader claims that "there's a precedent to do just that".

 :rofl:  :salute:

Offline Haggis

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #172 on: August 29, 2017, 14:59:03 »
"Build a wall and make the USA pay for it".

I have broached this idea before, but with a twist.  Build it predominantly out of snow and ice, but with sufficient structural framing to maintain it's form and symbolic purpose during the summer, so it becomes a seasonal employment project.
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Offline Brihard

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #173 on: August 29, 2017, 15:40:43 »
Oh, believe me, that joke has been getting a lot of play.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #174 on: August 29, 2017, 16:42:29 »
A people wall?


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