Author Topic: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0  (Read 56631 times)

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Offline mariomike

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #425 on: May 07, 2019, 10:07:12 »
As a result, the RCMP revised their reply and now state that the number of ATC in Canada specifically for protection of life is ONE.

Speculation is rampant on social media as to who "The ONE" is.

Norm Gardner used to carry. Not sure if he still does? Must be in his 80's by now.

Oops. Apparently not,

"This week Gardner said he’s no longer permitted to carry a gun."
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2014/01/31/former_pistolpacking_politician_norm_gardner_aims_for_mayor_rob_fords_job.html
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 10:10:09 by mariomike »

Offline Haggis

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #426 on: May 07, 2019, 10:10:58 »
I was referring to the position, rather than the individual, in that the concealed carry was a generally unknown aspect (unlike armed guards, etc, who are open carry).

I fully acknowledge that it was merely a guess.  :dunno:

And it was a good guess.  My understanding of how events unfolded was that Mr. Vickers was not carrying at the time of the incident but had to return to his office to retrieve his firearm from secure storage.
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Offline mariomike

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #427 on: May 07, 2019, 10:42:06 »
From what I understand, years ago, an armoured truck company had an armed plain-clothes member.

I remember a friend of mine who owned an auto repair business who carried a gun. Not sure if he had a permit.

My understanding of how events unfolded was that Mr. Vickers was not carrying at the time of the incident but had to return to his office to retrieve his firearm from secure storage.

Sounds similar to the bank managers, years ago. As long as the gun stayed on the property. That came to an end when a bullet fired by a manager during a robbery ricocheted and killed a teller.

Race tracks had armed plain clothes men as well. Not sure if they still do?

« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 10:47:40 by mariomike »

Offline Haggis

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #428 on: May 07, 2019, 11:25:23 »
From what I understand, years ago, an armoured truck company had an armed plain-clothes member.....
Race tracks had armed plain clothes men as well. Not sure if they still do?

That would be an ATC for employment, quite different from an ATC for protection of life.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #429 on: May 07, 2019, 12:29:33 »
25 counts of attemoted murder, drive by shooting and organized crime related offenses? Recipe for a plea bargain for sure.


Plea deals made for 3 Calgary gangsters involved in gun violence
Tarek El-Rafie and brothers Barakat and Talal Amer originally faced a total of 25 attempted murder charges

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-gangsters-amer-el-rafie-guilty-pleas-sentence-1.5125325
Three Calgary men involved in gun violence connected to a 2015 gang war on city streets have been sent to prison after plea deals meant most of their charges were withdrawn.

The three men — Tarek El-Rafie and brothers Barakat and Talal Amer — originally faced a total of 25 attempted murder charges as well as organized crime-related offences.

Plea deals were arranged between prosecutor Brian Holtby and defence lawyers Brian Greenspan, Brian Beresh and Kent Teskey.

Tarek El-Rafie pleaded guilty to one count of recklessly discharge of a restricted firearm and received a six year, four month sentence of which he has just over two years left to serve.

El-Rafie admitted to his involvement in a November 2015 drive-by shooting in the city's northeast, according to an agreed statement of facts.
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Offline Haggis

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #430 on: May 09, 2019, 18:04:41 »
I don't usually quote Reddit but I''ve now seen this same assertion from at least two other source including Tony Clement's own Twitter page. 

Today during question period Independent MP Tony Clement is said to have asked the following question.

Tony Clement: "...I have it on good authority that the PM has a secret plan to ban legal firearms. Apparently this plan is to be executed by cabinet directive with no debate in parliament. The PM plans to announce this gun ban at the Women Deliver conference held in early June in Vancouver where New Zealand PM Ardern will also attend. Can the PM confirm or deny this zero-accountability secret plan?"

Bill Blair: "I just want to assure this house that our government remains absolutely committed to taking all the measures that are effective in keeping Canadians safe and as I believe every member of this house will agree, there is no greater responsibility for any order of government..."

I have been saying it for months... this is how the Liberals will ban firearms in Canada.  No debate. No consideration of studies that don't fit their agenda.  Just an OIC.  Boom.  Done. Just like New Zealand.   No grandfathering, just confiscation.

I suspect the timelines to surrender our firearms will be very short and the penalties for non compliance quite harsh to get as many firearms seized and destroyed as possible before the election.
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Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #431 on: May 09, 2019, 18:20:55 »
I don't usually quote Reddit but I''ve now seen this same assertion from at least two other source including Tony Clement's own Twitter page. 

Today during question period Independent MP Tony Clement is said to have asked the following question.

Tony Clement: "...I have it on good authority that the PM has a secret plan to ban legal firearms. Apparently this plan is to be executed by cabinet directive with no debate in parliament. The PM plans to announce this gun ban at the Women Deliver conference held in early June in Vancouver where New Zealand PM Ardern will also attend. Can the PM confirm or deny this zero-accountability secret plan?"

Bill Blair: "I just want to assure this house that our government remains absolutely committed to taking all the measures that are effective in keeping Canadians safe and as I believe every member of this house will agree, there is no greater responsibility for any order of government..."

I have been saying it for months... this is how the Liberals will ban firearms in Canada.  No debate. No consideration of studies that don't fit their agenda.  Just an OIC.  Boom.  Done. Just like New Zealand.   No grandfathering, just confiscation.

I suspect the timelines to surrender our firearms will be very short and the penalties for non compliance quite harsh to get as many firearms seized and destroyed as possible before the election.

Prepare for massive non compliance like in NZ.
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Offline ModlrMike

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #432 on: May 09, 2019, 18:36:02 »
Just remember, there are no property rights in Canada. Remember also who's bright idea that was.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #433 on: May 09, 2019, 19:01:04 »
Question period, note the response. Remember Paul Martins handgun ban, every time they suck in the polls they go this route.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=362176877975151&t=9

Offline AbdullahD

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #434 on: May 09, 2019, 19:05:03 »
Haggis, do we have a more reputable source for this then reddit?

It kind of seems like fear mongering from anti-government or pro-firearm crowds... it does not make a lot of sense to me. I am not saying that Trudeau would not love to ban firearms, cause god knows he would. I just do not think his people feel that the social support for it in Canada has reached a level to support such a call.

I found the post, posted from the original reddit thread showing a huffington post on it...
https://m.huffingtonpost.ca/2019/05/09/tony-clement-secret-plan-firearms-ban_a_23723860/?utm_hp_ref=ca-homepage

Then a bunch of firearms blogs etc... any rate will be very interesting to see how this plays out. I suspect it will be more of a "if re-elected" kind of thing.

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Offline Beadwindow 7

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #435 on: May 09, 2019, 19:07:16 »
Just received this in my inbox. Usually don't pay much attention to Mrs. Gallant, but seems relevant.

Quote
Dear XXXX,

Today it was revealed Trudeau has a secret plan to ban all legal firearms.

It will be done by Cabinet Directive with no discussion, no debate in the house.

He plans to decree the ban at the “Woman Deliver Conference” in Vancouver BC (June 1 -3 2019).

New Zealand PM Ardern will be in attendance to offer Trudeau cover.

When the Liberal Minister responsible was asked about the plan to ban all legal firearms, he did not deny it.

As each day produces a new scandal, one more petal falls from the wilted rose of the Liberal leader.

Unpopular among more of his own party members, one Liberal MP after another announces intentions not to run for Parliament again.

Their party is desperately trying to change the channel as Canadians get closer and closer to a fall election.

The Liberals think they can manipulate the emotions of women by using sportsmen and farmers as scapegoats.

The conference is a convenient platform to attack law-abiding firearms owners, and try to make female voters, outraged over the “Kokanee Grope”, forget about it.

The conference is less than 25 days away.

That is all the time we have to fight Trudeau and the Liberal Party.

This fight is real.

We need to stop this plan now before it gets swept up in this fall’s election.

Don’t let Trudeau use you to cover up his failures.

Regards,

Cheryl Gallant

Ironically,  just as I was about to hit post on this, the CTVnews headline on the telly was "Homemade guns on the rise"
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #436 on: May 09, 2019, 19:12:21 »
The man loves the applause of a crowd. He's got nothing else to offer them, and since he seems to think this will piss off men to please certain women, what better way than this?
Would this also be why he is not in Parliament QP?
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #437 on: May 09, 2019, 21:51:06 »
Can't find any good news articles, but I read on CGN that Kingston City Council defeated a complete gun ban in a 7-6 vote last night. Well done!
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #438 on: May 09, 2019, 22:26:17 »
When I was in Kingston the wait list to join the gun club (requirement to possess restricted firearms) was up to two years.

I've been told the city constantly treated the club like crap and now and then students try to shut it down but there's a lot of gun owners.
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #439 on: May 09, 2019, 22:50:20 »
Haggis, do we have a more reputable source for this then reddit?

It kind of seems like fear mongering from anti-government or pro-firearm crowds... it does not make a lot of sense to me. I am not saying that Trudeau would not love to ban firearms, cause god knows he would. I just do not think his people feel that the social support for it in Canada has reached a level to support such a call.

I found the post, posted from the original reddit thread showing a huffington post on it...
https://m.huffingtonpost.ca/2019/05/09/tony-clement-secret-plan-firearms-ban_a_23723860/?utm_hp_ref=ca-homepage

Then a bunch of firearms blogs etc... any rate will be very interesting to see how this plays out. I suspect it will be more of a "if re-elected" kind of thing.

Abdullah

Abdullah, see Colin P above.
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Offline AbdullahD

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #440 on: May 09, 2019, 23:30:00 »
Abdullah, see Colin P above.

I saw that, both versions the 40~ second one and the 57~ second one.

The allegations were made, but nothing was confirmed. The devils advocate in me thinks it could be a low level trying to be important, misinformation being fed from the liberals, the conservatives using it to rally the troops and so on and so forth.

I do not trust politicians of any side, stripe or inclination. Not saying they are bad people, but sometimes they make choices that are.. interesting.

So yes, the allegations have been made and they have been neither confirmed nor denied.. i just feel something more concrete is needed before i visit mike from canmore or have a boating accident haha

Abdullah

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #441 on: May 10, 2019, 14:21:11 »
I'm glad I called the CFO and registered my AR15 as a reciever only. Very helpful and pleasent people to deal with. AR15 owners might want to consider it.
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Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #442 on: May 10, 2019, 20:24:32 »

Tony Clement: "...I have it on good authority that the PM has a secret plan to ban legal firearms. Apparently this plan is to be executed by cabinet directive with no debate in parliament. The PM plans to announce this gun ban at the Women Deliver conference held in early June in Vancouver where New Zealand PM Ardern will also attend. Can the PM confirm or deny this zero-accountability secret plan?"

On the other hand the source may be some Russian troll just trying to stir things up.

I'll wait until I see something more substantial. 
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #443 on: May 10, 2019, 21:32:34 »
A wounded animal is a dangerous one, and the Libs are definitely wounded. I'm unsure if Bill C-71 has time to get passed which would be another failure of them to execute and another blow for them. They are bleeding votes and a new threat on their left, the Greens, has emerged making their job even harder.

This could be easy cheap points for them to try and recuperate some of the votes they lost on the left, if they overdo it (all handguns and all currently restricted rifles) I think it might backfire as those who sit on the LibCon fence would be pushed to the Cons after another serious blow to democracy and liberty. But I think if they limited the order-in-council to make AR-15s prohibited, they would walk away saying they did something to take assault rifles off the streets as they promised, and unfortunately not enough Canadians, including not enough firearm owners, would be appalled.
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #444 on: May 10, 2019, 21:49:12 »
Couple of problems I see with making them prohibited.

a) do you grandfather all owners to 12.6 status and expand the base of people that can own prohibs?

b) if not, do we create a special class for AR variants?

There's more along that line, but eliminating the obvious allows for drilling down to the end result.

Whatever they do though, they will be creating thousands of criminals overnight.
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #445 on: May 10, 2019, 23:20:56 »
The only reason I can see them doing that is to try and bait the worst out of some people, and it's working.
On CGN, I see people working  on theories that they have not enough time left in their lives to let anyone take their weaps. I get the sentiment, but I think it's too much Hollywood and not enough pragmatism. Why anyone would think the high ground would be to operationalize this to fighting words let alone fighting sentiment is beyond me. It's just property and a certain construct of "rights", and the deprivation thereof does not amount to property in weapons = the DNA of their life, or anyone else. 
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #446 on: May 10, 2019, 23:39:39 »
https://myemail.constantcontact.com/UPDATE---AR-15-Rifle-to-be-included-in-Liberal-Gun-Bans.html?soid=1124731702303&aid=3w5MwM13yKc

CSSA is reporting that "two separate, unconnected government sources, one of whom has direct knowledge of the plan, confirmed the Liberal government’s proposed “sweeping gun ban” will include the AR-15 target rifle."
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Offline Eaglelord17

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #447 on: May 11, 2019, 07:48:04 »
Couple of problems I see with making them prohibited.

a) do you grandfather all owners to 12.6 status and expand the base of people that can own prohibs?

b) if not, do we create a special class for AR variants?

There's more along that line, but eliminating the obvious allows for drilling down to the end result.

Whatever they do though, they will be creating thousands of criminals overnight.

They cannot grandfather anyone without changing the laws. Currently the laws allow for the prohibition of firearms based off a OIC but you cannot grandfather anyone into a prohibited category except for direct relatives with a pre-1945 registered 12.6 firearm.

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #448 on: May 11, 2019, 09:26:54 »
The Toronto Star takes the view there is no sweeping gun ban in the works, because --- wait for it ....
"It could be that the Trudeau team is aware that all this pro-feminist rhetoric of the past four years has been interpreted in some quarters as being unfriendly to men, and that it doesn’t want gun control falling into that polarized, men-versus-women atmosphere. Gun control, historically, has been polarizing enough already."

 ::) As everybody knows, Trudeau is not about polarizing ...


"https://www-thestar-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.thestar.com/amp/politics/political-opinion/2019/05/10/trudeau-government-takes-a-gender-neutral-approach-to-gun-control.html?amp_js_v=0.1#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thestar.com%2Fpolitics%2Fpolitical-opinion%2F2019%2F05%2F10%2Ftrudeau-government-takes-a-gender-neutral-approach-to-gun-control.html"
« Last Edit: May 11, 2019, 09:35:06 by Cloud Cover »
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #449 on: May 11, 2019, 10:16:08 »
They cannot grandfather anyone without changing the laws. Currently the laws allow for the prohibition of firearms based off a OIC but you cannot grandfather anyone into a prohibited category except for direct relatives with a pre-1945 registered 12.6 firearm.

The CSSA notice seems to imply that there is something in Bill C-71 that might enable it, and could even enable taking it to the range.

It's almost like they've had this planned........................................
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