Author Topic: Helicopter/Cyclone discussion (split from HMCS Fredricton thread)  (Read 10478 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Baz

  • Donor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 26,020
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 679
FRE is going to head back to sea in a few days.  I would imagine that the RCAF and MH community are going to be starting to think about how to get another helo over to that part of the world.  The ship is far less capable without an embarked helo.   I would imagine thought has been given to this already.

It's late in the deployment, and you would have to C-17 it over.

And 12 Wing isn't particularly fat on aircrew.

But maybe.

*Sarcasm on*  The ship never seems to think this when your their *Sarcasm off*
« Last Edit: May 09, 2020, 11:19:51 by BeyondTheNow »

Online SeaKingTacco

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 165,720
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,786
  • Door Gunnery- The Sport of Kings!
Re: Re: Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2020, 09:52:43 »
It's late in the deployment, and you would have to C-17 it over.

And 12 Wing isn't particularly fat on aircrew.

But maybe.

*Sarcasm on*  The ship never seems to think this when your their *Sarcasm off*

We do not yet have an approved method of air transporting a Cyclone by C17. It is still on the “to do list”.

Offline MilEME09

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 45,865
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,074
Re: Re: Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2020, 10:33:20 »
We do not yet have an approved method of air transporting a Cyclone by C17. It is still on the “to do list”.

Life sometimes has a way of moving things on the to do list, to the do now list,or maybe that's just what having a wife does. However I am not going to speculate on the RCN/RCAF next move as I have zero experience on those matters.
+40
"We are called a Battalion, Authorized to be company strength, parade as a platoon, Operating as a section"

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 246,505
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,835
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: Re: Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2020, 10:41:17 »
C-17 can airlift CH-147F Chinooks and CH-149 Cormorants, both larger than the CH-148 Cyclone, so I’d think it may become a ‘prioritized effort’, as MilEME09 notes above.

Online SeaKingTacco

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 165,720
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,786
  • Door Gunnery- The Sport of Kings!
Re: Re: Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2020, 10:51:19 »
C-17 can airlift CH-147F Chinooks and CH-149 Cormorants, both larger than the CH-148 Cyclone, so I’d think it may become a ‘prioritized effort’, as MilEME09 notes above.

I agree, it is not rocket surgery, but it does take effort to get a Cyclone to Trenton; do the load trials; document it; get Sikorsky engineering to sign off on the procedure; publish it all and fabricate/procure any specialized handling equipment. There is a huge laundry list of thing that all need doing- this is just one item.

Offline dapaterson

    Halfway to being an idiot-savant.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 510,300
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 17,843
Re: Re: Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2020, 11:02:59 »
I agree, it is not rocket surgery, but it does take effort to get a Cyclone to Trenton; do the load trials; document it; get Sikorsky engineering to sign off on the procedure; publish it all and fabricate/procure any specialized handling equipment. There is a huge laundry list of thing that all need doing- this is just one item.

Wouldn't it be easier to send a C17 with crew to Halifax?  (Non-pilot, non-ATC, non-aircrew here).
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline tomahawk6

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 121,240
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,404
Re: Re: Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2020, 11:46:42 »
What about a NATO chopper and aircrew to fill in ?

Offline Baz

  • Donor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 26,020
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 679
Re: Re: Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2020, 12:01:05 »
What about a NATO chopper and aircrew to fill in ?

It's quite easy for a helicopter to cross-deck, that is land and get fuel (and maybe something to eat).

It's harder to operate from the other ship for a couple of days.  You'd need some maintainers and a fly-away kit (a small pack up of spares, tools, etc).

It's actually quite difficult to deploy a det.  The det comes onboard with aircraft specific maintainers, tools,, support equipment; and not to mention procedures.  This pack-up is actually specific to ship type and needs to be stowed specifically.

So probably no.

Offline Baz

  • Donor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 26,020
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 679
Re: Re: Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2020, 12:03:42 »
Wouldn't it be easier to send a C17 with crew to Halifax?  (Non-pilot, non-ATC, non-aircrew here).

That's how we normally did it with the Sea King.  Doesn't solve all the other problems SKT listed.

Not to mention knitting some aircrew.  There are other deployments coming up as well.

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Myth
  • *****
  • 295,055
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15,515
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Re: Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2020, 18:47:00 »
What about a NATO chopper and aircrew to fill in ?

If they do, and it's a British crew, you'll never get rid of them after they hit the galley :)
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline CloudCover

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 53,365
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,526
Re: Re: Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2020, 19:00:27 »
It's quite easy for a helicopter to cross-deck, that is land and get fuel (and maybe something to eat).

It's harder to operate from the other ship for a couple of days.  You'd need some maintainers and a fly-away kit (a small pack up of spares, tools, etc).

It's actually quite difficult to deploy a det.  The det comes onboard with aircraft specific maintainers, tools,, support equipment; and not to mention procedures.  This pack-up is actually specific to ship type and needs to be stowed specifically.

So probably no.

They need to work on that, maybe...
... Move!! ...

Offline dapaterson

    Halfway to being an idiot-savant.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 510,300
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 17,843
Re: Re: Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2020, 20:14:55 »
If they do, and it's a British crew, you'll never get rid of them after they hit the galley :)

Don't forget, Canadian ships are dry at sea now.
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Online SupersonicMax

    is back home.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 90,410
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,925
Re: Re: Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2020, 21:05:02 »
I agree, it is not rocket surgery, but it does take effort to get a Cyclone to Trenton; do the load trials; document it; get Sikorsky engineering to sign off on the procedure; publish it all and fabricate/procure any specialized handling equipment. There is a huge laundry list of thing that all need doing- this is just one item.

Unless things are different with the Cyclone, the WSM can authorize such activity.  It took 1 day to get the load trial done for the Hornet.

Online SeaKingTacco

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 165,720
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,786
  • Door Gunnery- The Sport of Kings!
Re: Re: Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2020, 23:49:52 »
Unless things are different with the Cyclone, the WSM can authorize such activity.  It took 1 day to get the load trial done for the Hornet.

Perhaps leveraged heavily from USN/USAF procedures? We are the only operator of the Cyclone. There is nobody else to leverage technique off of.

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Myth
  • *****
  • 295,055
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15,515
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Re: Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2020, 00:11:40 »
Don't forget, Canadian ships are dry at sea now.

No. Way.  :o
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Online SupersonicMax

    is back home.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 90,410
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,925
Re: Re: Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2020, 01:02:31 »
Perhaps leveraged heavily from USN/USAF procedures? We are the only operator of the Cyclone. There is nobody else to leverage technique off of.

Not that I know of.  We used standard CFTOs procedures to remove and crate wings, reduce pressure in the oleos and then found a way to pull the aircraft into the C-17.  When there is a will there is a way.

Offline Ditch

  • Established 1998
  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 30,042
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,507
  • I routinely step in it, but like conflict...
Re: Re: Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2020, 03:08:18 »
Cormorant has been put into the back of a C-17 at least once - it flew down to South America.

Contacts at IMP divulge that the capability to do it again has expired and substantial effort would be required to make it happen.
Per Ardua Ad Astra

Offline CBH99

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 37,005
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,013
Re: Re: Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2020, 04:53:46 »
Not to sound cheeky, but how did the capability expire?

We still have CH-148's in the inventory.  We still have C-17's. 

??
Fortune Favours the Bold...and the Smart.

Wouldn't it be nice to have some Boondock Saints kicking around?

Offline Baz

  • Donor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 26,020
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 679
Re: Re: Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2020, 08:32:44 »
They need to work on that, maybe...

Possibly... but it's worked fine for decades.  A helairdet is not an independent entity, it's meant to work with a certain class of ship, which is how most if not all other countries do it as well.

When we had tankers and 280s the dets were different as well.  Plus high readiness and low readiness dets (PUKs) are different.

I'm not convinced that spending the effort to make them more flexible wrt ship they can deploy to is woth it, esp when there is so much other important work to be done.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 236,255
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,205
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Re: Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2020, 10:38:18 »
Not to sound cheeky, but how did the capability expire?

We still have CH-148's in the inventory.  We still have C-17's. 

??

Do you mean CH-149s?  (149 = Cormorant, 148 = Cyclone)
"What a f$$kin' week!" - me, every Monday at about 1130hrs.

Offline dapaterson

    Halfway to being an idiot-savant.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 510,300
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 17,843
Re: Re: Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2020, 10:44:24 »
They need to work on that, maybe...

You wouldn't take your BMW to a Ford dealership for maintenance; maritime helicopters are the same, but more complex, doing that work at sea.
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline Dana381

  • Guest
  • *
  • 410
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15
Re: Re: Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2020, 12:31:44 »
Sikorsky's website says that the S-92 is transportable by a C-17. They must have procedures documented. How much different is the CH-148 to a S-92? could the same procedures be used as a starting point and reduce the time required?

This makes a case for in flight refueling on the Cyclone. I'm sure this isn't the only time it would come in handy.

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 246,505
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,835
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: Re: Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2020, 13:07:01 »
This makes a case for in flight refueling on the Cyclone. I'm sure this isn't the only time it would come in handy.

Do you mean hover refueling (HIFR - helo in-flight refueling)?

Offline CBH99

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 37,005
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,013
Re: Re: Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2020, 13:41:59 »
Do you mean CH-149s?  (149 = Cormorant, 148 = Cyclone)


No.

Ditch had mentioned that some contacts at IMP indicated the capability of moving a Cyclone via C-17 had expired.  I was just wondering if someone could elaborate on that more, seeing as how we have both airframes in use. 

It seems like if we've done it before, it could be done again fairly easily.  But I don't have any first hand or technical knowledge of this, so was hoping someone could elaborate on why the capability may not exist anymore, when we still have the airframes to do it. 
Fortune Favours the Bold...and the Smart.

Wouldn't it be nice to have some Boondock Saints kicking around?

Offline reverse_engineer

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 62,990
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,595
Re: Re: Helicopter working with HMCS Fredericton missing?
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2020, 13:45:00 »
You might want to re-read the post by Ditch, I think he was talking about the CH-149. Cormorant, not Cyclone.